Prestige Classes for Knight?

[Titanium Fox]

Okay, so I'm playing a 6th level Knight in a PbP right now. He's focusing two-handed trip, although that can be changed to Sword (Mace) and Board pretty damn easily.

I'm looking for a viable, martial only prestige class that would serve a Knight well. I'm not all that familiar with the martial aspects of the game, so help is extremely appreciated.

[hex0]

Ive always been a fan of pious templar. Keeping your d12 die is nice...

[Zaq]

The problem, of course, is that nothing (aside from Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster, but they're not what you want) advances Knight features. Nothing makes your Test of Mettle better, nothing gives you more challenges per day, nothing makes you more, well, Knightly. You have to sacrifice some Knightliness in a way that most melee folks don't have to sacrifice their roots to PrC out. Are you OK with that? What are you comfortable losing? What do you want to make better? How far into the future do you want to plan?

[Fax Celestis]

I've seen good things with a dip into Warblade or Crusader and then heading right into Deepstone Sentinel. Test of Mettle them into your doubly-difficult terrain mountain of AoO goodness, blenderize, tenderize, and serve over ice.

[hex0]

Knights have any ACFS that make them less class level dependent
?
I am not too familiar.

[Zaq]

I don't know of any ACFs specifically for Knights (maybe in Dragon, if that's your thing, but I don't actually have any issues of Dragon, so I can't check). They can benefit from some of the general ones in Cityscape (trading Ride for Tumble, for instance . . . which is awesome if you're not into horses, since Knights can tumble in full plate, which is hilarious).

[Demons_eye]

If these guys (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eBOaNgfp0M&feature=player_embedded) can pro wrestle in it than tumbling must be easy.

[Zaq]

If these guys (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eBOaNgfp0M&feature=player_embedded) can pro wrestle in it than tumbling must be easy.

Maybe, but RAW, you can't Tumble if your speed is restricted by armor, meaning that only dwarves and Knights can Tumble in full plate (at least, in unmodded full plate).

[Titanium Fox]

The problem, of course, is that nothing (aside from Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster, but they're not what you want) advances Knight features. Nothing makes your Test of Mettle better, nothing gives you more challenges per day, nothing makes you more, well, Knightly. You have to sacrifice some Knightliness in a way that most melee folks don't have to sacrifice their roots to PrC out. Are you OK with that? What are you comfortable losing? What do you want to make better? How far into the future do you want to plan?

Honestly, just anything that makes me more effective as a tank. I'm planning for both near and far future in this case, I'm not sure how high we're going to get in this PbP. I'm just rather quickly realizing that a Knight with a Ranseur was a bad, bad decision for an Undead Heavy campaign (and frankly, I'm not quite sure what I was smoking when I picked it).


I've seen good things with a dip into Warblade or Crusader and then heading right into Deepstone Sentinel. Test of Mettle them into your doubly-difficult terrain mountain of AoO goodness, blenderize, tenderize, and serve over ice.

Hmm. What book is Deepstone Sentinel out of?


Maybe, but RAW, you can't Tumble if your speed is restricted by armor, meaning that only dwarves and Knights can Tumble in full plate (at least, in unmodded full plate).

He's a Dwarven Knight. Does this mean I can double tumble in it? :smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

Knights have a bunch of abilities that work well with tripping - even though Test of Mettle breaks when your allies hit the opponent, if he's already been drawn into your threatened zone, it's the end for him.

If you want to grab some nice anti-undead stuff, a Cleric dip could end you straight into Knight of the Raven, whose distracting raven companion is a pretty useful addition to a tank's repertoire.

Edit: Augh, martial only? See if you can work with your DM to swap the casting for something else, because that raven is really cool, and the turning's nothing to sneer at either.

[Fax Celestis]

Hmm. What book is Deepstone Sentinel out of?

Tome of Battle.

[Metahuman1]

Knights have a bunch of abilities that work well with tripping - even though Test of Mettle breaks when your allies hit the opponent, if he's already been drawn into your threatened zone, it's the end for him.

If you want to grab some nice anti-undead stuff, a Cleric dip could end you straight into Knight of the Raven, whose distracting raven companion is a pretty useful addition to a tank's repertoire.

Edit: Augh, martial only? See if you can work with your DM to swap the casting for something else, because that raven is really cool, and the turning's nothing to sneer at either.

I'd Dip Crusader, Maybe another Dip to Warblade, and get the spells swapped for martial maneuvers.

Another trick.

Ask your DM to let you retrain a few martial weapons you'll never use/don't fit flavor, say Halbred and Rapier, for a single exotic weapons proficiency. Go spiked chain or if you must keep it dwarfy, Dwarven Warpike. Tada, your now better then the Ranseur Knight was.

Other tricks.

-Rebuild quests. Get a template or two tacked on there for more Strength, Con, maybe some DR or other nice things.

-Affiliations. Make one that gives a capstone ability of making Knight levels stack with a few classes that either fit thematically, or just a number of classes equal too what ever ability mod would be most helpful too you for getting the Dips you want.

[hex0]

Since you really want to play a Knight, see if your DM is ok with this:

Let prcs with full BAB that don't require casting but still advance casting to advance your Knight's Challenge, Vigilant Defender, and Shield Block abilities anytime they get a spellcasting boost.

For example Dragonslayer and Platinum Knight would be nice candidates.

If not, Deepwarden and Pious Templar are both excellent choices for Knights. Or you could go Cleric/Prestige Paladin. (you already have mounted combat, too!)

Edit: Check out Races of Stone in general. See if you can get armor mastery to apply to Dwarven armor as well. Run around in mountain plate!

[Person_Man]

Knight Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429).

I find it odd that you went to Knight 6. Normally people go to Knight 4 for Test of Mettle or Knight 20 for Loyal Beyond Death. I know that Vigilant Defender is tempting to negate Tumble, but it is tied to your Knight level, and thus because a lot less useful if you plan to PrC.

Anywho, these are my suggestions:

Ashworm Dragoon: One of the best mounted PrC, you get a poisonous burrowing worm to ride that improves with your levels, unlimited Mount Combat uses per round (essentially preventing melee damage to your mount), Pounce, and the ability to Burrow with your mount. This last ability is particularly important, because enemies can't target you if they don't have line of effect. This gives you great Test of Mettle combo. Sandstorm.

Blackguard: Cha to Saves, a penalty to your enemies Saves (useful for Test of Mettle), Sneak Attack (useful because it qualifies you for the Staggering Strike feat, which has great synergy for Trip builds), and Rebuke Undead (because it qualifies you for a dozen uber useful Divine feats, like Travel Devotion, Earth Devotion, Divine Shield, etc). Alternatively, you can use the Paladin of Tyranny, which would save you from having to take Improved Sunder, but lacks Sneak Attack. DMG.

Binder: 1 level and a Feat (Improved Binder) gets you access to the Dahlver-Nar vestige, which grants you 1/2 your Con to AC, a nifty area of effect Save or Daze attack, and the pivitol Shield Self ability, which allows you shift 50% of your damage to another target. VERY useful, in that there is no duration and you can attempt to shift it to a new target once every five rounds. Buy an exotic mount with a lot of hit points (like an elephant or Figurine of Wondrous Power from Sandstorm). Use Shield Self on the mount until it fails it's Save. Then in combat you basically get +50% hit points, or you can attempt to shift it to an enemy with a low Will Save. Tome of Magic.

Hellreaver: Probably the best self healing tank out there. This PrC gets immunity to Fear, Mettle, and the ability to heal 10/20/30 hit points (depending on your level) to yourself or any Good ally within 10 feet every round of combat as a Swift action pretty much every round of combat (that you’re not using Test of Mettle or some other Immediate/Swift Action). Best ECL: 6-11. Fiendish Codex II.

Marshal: A one level dip into Marshal will give you and your friends your Cha bonus to Str checks, which will work wonders on your Trip or Bull Rush attempts. Miniatures Handbook.

Tactical Soldier 2: Gives you Adaptable Flanker and Sidestep as bonus feats, which would normally cost 5 feats to get if you got them via other means, and are handy for melee Trip builds. Best ECL: 6-8. Miniatures Handbook pg 22.

[Coidzor]

Ranger Knight of Furyondy is pretty cool Dragon material, gives you a special mount.

Aglarondan Griffin Rider. Gives you a griffon.

Worm Knight. Ashworm Dragoon. Gives you a giant sandworm.

[Titanium Fox]

Just for the record, the martial only restriction isn't from the DM or the campaign setting. It's a personality based restriction for the character.


Ask your DM to let you retrain a few martial weapons you'll never use/don't fit flavor, say Halbred and Rapier, for a single exotic weapons proficiency. Go spiked chain or if you must keep it dwarfy, Dwarven Warpike. Tada, your now better then the Ranseur Knight was.

This is a good idea. I'll see if he'll let me swap a proficiency for spiked chain. I have no issues having him train with something that isn't particularly "dwarfy".


Other tricks.

-Rebuild quests. Get a template or two tacked on there for more Strength, Con, maybe some DR or other nice things.

I get the feeling he won't allow this for a rebuild, but it's worth running by him if I do decide to go that route.


Since you really want to play a Knight, see if your DM is ok with this:

Let prcs with full BAB that don't require casting but still advance casting to advance your Knight's Challenge, Vigilant Defender, and Shield Block abilities anytime they get a spellcasting boost.

I really like this idea. I'll look into some spellcasting classes that fit thematically and see if he'll allow this.


If not, Deepwarden and Pious Templar are both excellent choices for Knights.

Edit: Check out Races of Stone in general. See if you can get armor mastery to apply to Dwarven armor as well. Run around in mountain plate!

Deepwarden and Pious Templar are both from Races of Stone, right?


Knight Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429).

I find it odd that you went to Knight 6. Normally people go to Knight 4 for Test of Mettle or Knight 20 for Loyal Beyond Death. I know that Vigilant Defender is tempting to negate Tumble, but it is tied to your Knight level, and thus because a lot less useful if you plan to PrC.

The only reason that I went that high is that's where the campaign started, and at the time I wanted to go all the way to Knight 20. However looking at it, we're probably not going to get that far, and I'm nowhere near as effective as I thought I'd be.


Anywho, these are my suggestions:

Ashworm Dragoon: One of the best mounted PrC, you get a poisonous burrowing worm to ride that improves with your levels, unlimited Mount Combat uses per round (essentially preventing melee damage to your mount), Pounce, and the ability to Burrow with your mount. This last ability is particularly important, because enemies can't target you if they don't have line of effect. This gives you great Test of Mettle combo. Sandstorm.

Blackguard: Cha to Saves, a penalty to your enemies Saves (useful for Test of Mettle), Sneak Attack (useful because it qualifies you for the Staggering Strike feat, which has great synergy for Trip builds), and Rebuke Undead (because it qualifies you for a dozen uber useful Divine feats, like Travel Devotion, Earth Devotion, Divine Shield, etc). Alternatively, you can use the Paladin of Tyranny, which would save you from having to take Improved Sunder, but lacks Sneak Attack. DMG.

Binder: 1 level and a Feat (Improved Binder) gets you access to the Dahlver-Nar vestige, which grants you 1/2 your Con to AC, a nifty area of effect Save or Daze attack, and the pivitol Shield Self ability, which allows you shift 50% of your damage to another target. VERY useful, in that there is no duration and you can attempt to shift it to a new target once every five rounds. Buy an exotic mount with a lot of hit points (like an elephant or Figurine of Wondrous Power from Sandstorm). Use Shield Self on the mount until it fails it's Save. Then in combat you basically get +50% hit points, or you can attempt to shift it to an enemy with a low Will Save. Tome of Magic.

Hellreaver: Probably the best self healing tank out there. This PrC gets immunity to Fear, Mettle, and the ability to heal 10/20/30 hit points (depending on your level) to yourself or any Good ally within 10 feet every round of combat as a Swift action pretty much every round of combat (that you’re not using Test of Mettle or some other Immediate/Swift Action). Best ECL: 6-11. Fiendish Codex II.

Marshal: A one level dip into Marshal will give you and your friends your Cha bonus to Str checks, which will work wonders on your Trip or Bull Rush attempts. Miniatures Handbook.

Tactical Soldier 2: Gives you Adaptable Flanker and Sidestep as bonus feats, which would normally cost 5 feats to get if you got them via other means, and are handy for melee Trip builds. Best ECL: 6-8. Miniatures Handbook pg 22.

All definitely good ideas to look into. Thanks for the suggestions!

[Greyfell]

I'm assuming you have cleave, etc here... and knight gives you mounted combat as a bonus feat. If so, you should be able to get into 'Knight protector' prestige fairly easily. (com Warrior page 55). Right away it gives you an 'aura' that gives your friends a big plus to save versus fear, which usually is a significant thing you face in an undead campaign.

You also get Iron Will for free and the ability to take a 5ft step in the middle of a string of cleave or great cleave attempts. Eventually you get up to two additional Attacks of Oppurtunity (which stack with those from Combat Reflexes) which seems good if your a reach weapon fighter.

sadly, your key feature (defensive stance) only works if your escorting an important NPC who's smaller then you... unless for some reason your fellow party members have less Hit Dice then you? (any of them take a level adjustment required race, maybe?)

[hex0]

I'm assuming you have cleave, etc here... and knight gives you mounted combat as a bonus feat. If so, you should be able to get into 'Knight protector' prestige fairly easily. (com Warrior page 55). Right away it gives you an 'aura' that gives your friends a big plus to save versus fear, which usually is a significant thing you face in an undead campaign.

You also get Iron Will for free and the ability to take a 5ft step in the middle of a string of cleave or great cleave attempts. Eventually you get up to two additional Attacks of Oppurtunity (which stack with those from Combat Reflexes) which seems good if your a reach weapon fighter.

sadly, your key feature (defensive stance) only works if your escorting an important NPC who's smaller then you... unless for some reason your fellow party members have less Hit Dice then you? (any of them take a level adjustment required race, maybe?)

That's a pretty nice bonus. Iron Will is required for a few PRCs and feats as well, Dragonslayer comes to mind. I'd also like to suggest Pious Templar again for Mettle, spells, etc.

[Titanium Fox]

I'm assuming you have cleave, etc here... and knight gives you mounted combat as a bonus feat. If so, you should be able to get into 'Knight protector' prestige fairly easily. (com Warrior page 55). Right away it gives you an 'aura' that gives your friends a big plus to save versus fear, which usually is a significant thing you face in an undead campaign.

You also get Iron Will for free and the ability to take a 5ft step in the middle of a string of cleave or great cleave attempts. Eventually you get up to two additional Attacks of Oppurtunity (which stack with those from Combat Reflexes) which seems good if your a reach weapon fighter.

sadly, your key feature (defensive stance) only works if your escorting an important NPC who's smaller then you... unless for some reason your fellow party members have less Hit Dice then you? (any of them take a level adjustment required race, maybe?)

I don't have Cleave yet. I really should though. My character is a mess, I took the last two feats in a rush because the campaign was about to start up; he needs some major work in all honesty. I'll talk to my DM and see if I can re-work a feat or two; I should really have at the very least Trip based feats.

That aura sounds really nice though. I'll definitely look into that.

Unfortunately none of my fellow players have less hit dice than I do.


That's a pretty nice bonus. Iron Will is required for a few PRCs and feats as well, Dragonslayer comes to mind. I'd also like to suggest Pious Templar again for Mettle, spells, etc.

Pious Templar is sounding really good. I'll check out Races of Stone tonight for sure.

[Lord Ruby34]

Unfortunately none of my fellow players have less hit dice than I do.

Actually Nothker's got a LA, remember. Though protecting the other Melee guy might not be the best plan.

[ranagrande]

Pious Templar is sounding really good. I'll check out Races of Stone tonight for sure.

Pious Templar is from Complete Divine.

[hex0]

What did you and/or your DM think about allowing spellcasting boosting PRCs to boost your Knight abilities instead?

[flabort]

I'd direct you to the first round of the Dessert Iron Chef spin-off, where we played with a knight PrC, but that's homebrew.
And I'm sure none of the main-line Iron Chef entries, from any round, used knight. :smallfrown: So I can't help now.

Although, given it's a PbP, the DM might be more willing to allow homebrew. Now, the class wouldn't fit your character anyways, since you're not evil, and embracing one of the Deadly Sins, but it's an idea. See if you can't dig up any other Knight PrCs in the homebrew section. IF you can convince your DM.

[Greyfell]

I'm not sure either Pious Templar or Dragonslayer would be solid fits for this character as described so far. Dragonslayer's abilities are very focused on, you guessed it! hurting dragons. Pious Templar is cool, but it requires the 'true believer' feat which is very 'meh'

Titanium... could we get some basic info on your Knight, especially ability scores and alignment? These things can matter when trying to pick Prestiges.

[Gwendol]

Have a discussion with your DM about allowing progression of your knight class features with the PrC. In addition to the ones already suggested I put forward the Cavalier (mounted combat specialization) and the Purple Dragon knight (Cormyr and FR specific, but can be adapted for other realms). The purple dragon has several class features that synergize well with what the standard knight can do, building on the (typically) high charisma etc. Also, you get inspire courage (as the bard song), which can be easily augmented by a Badge of Valor (MiC).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Crusader makes a great dip for Thicket of Blades.

Another good PrC, if you're going with sword-and-board, is Ironsoul Forgemaster. You're even a Dwarf, which makes it a shoe-in. It's in Magic of Incarnum, and could really help shore up some of your defenses.

[Titanium Fox]

I'm not sure either Pious Templar or Dragonslayer would be solid fits for this character as described so far. Dragonslayer's abilities are very focused on, you guessed it! hurting dragons. Pious Templar is cool, but it requires the 'true believer' feat which is very 'meh'

Titanium... could we get some basic info on your Knight, especially ability scores and alignment? These things can matter when trying to pick Prestiges.

Why yes, yes you can! I probably should have done this in the first place, come to think of it. Like I mentioned earlier, the character is an absolute mess.

Here's Bofsun, Dwarven Knight of Thor. (http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=19769)

[Gwendol]

Quickdraw? A feat made redundant by a lesser crystal of return (300 gp). Any chance of picking something else?

[Titanium Fox]

Quickdraw? A feat made redundant by a lesser crystal of return (300 gp). Any chance of picking something else?

Possible. When we lost a player the DM just went "Yeah, this Elf has been with you the whole time and no one noticed so yeah."

I'm gonna wade through and cherry pick out from the suggestions what I want to do and propose them to my DM in full all at once. I would like to replace that though, definitely. My thought was to switch the Ranseur for a Warhammer in cases of undead bashing, but I didn't have enough to buy the Warhammer (well, +1 or more) after feat placement and frankly forgot about the fact I'd taken it all together by the time we started.

[Greyfell]

gwendol: I also considered purple dragon knight, but with so few skill points and needing ranks in what (iirc) are cross class skills, it's going to be tight.

whoops, no... Knight protector at very least does has diplomacy! excellent. He would need the 'negotiator' feat (and we all know how bad those skill feats tend to be) though, and I don't see the 3rd level ability to cause fear being a big thing in an undead heavy setting. Overall though, it's nice and solid, and it's very easy to pump Inspire Courage (trust me, I'm a bard-o-phile).

With a +2 charisma... I'm seriously thinking that Person man had a good suggestion as well: Marshal (Miniatures handbook) for a level or two for more buffing (all out to 60 feet to, which makes it nice as you don't have to be positioned so precisely to cover everyone).

'Art of War' would give all your allies your CHA bonus to trip, bull rush, sunder and disarm attempts. Nice if your party is into such things. Motivate Dexterity would give it to dex checks including initiative rolls as well.

The Major aura can be a +1 to hit, or +1 to damage, Armor class, or even +5 to speed as well.

edit: forgot to mention, the bonuses from the Dragon Knight 'inspire' and the ones from Marshall would stack, as well (one is morale, the other circumstance)

[Draz74]

IIRC, there's a Magic Item Set in Magic Item Compendium that boosts Knight and Marshal class features at the same time. I think you need 4 levels of Marshal to take advantage of it, though, which isn't exactly optimal.

[Psyren]

Since you really want to play a Knight, see if your DM is ok with this:

Let prcs with full BAB that don't require casting but still advance casting to advance your Knight's Challenge, Vigilant Defender, and Shield Block abilities anytime they get a spellcasting boost.

I second this idea - PF Soulknife has something like it and it works really well. But I wouldn't restrict it to full BAB classes; after all, the loss of BAB in a 3/4 class would represent the trade off to get both PrCs features and keep your iconic knightly moves. Not to mention there are very few full bab classes with decent casting progression.

[Flickerdart]

IIRC, there's a Magic Item Set in Magic Item Compendium that boosts Knight and Marshal class features at the same time. I think you need 4 levels of Marshal to take advantage of it, though, which isn't exactly optimal.
A Surcoat of Valor (4000, torso) boosts your Knight's Challenge DC by 1 and its duration by 1 round. A Noble Pennon (5000, unslotted) does likewise. The Knight item set is actually pretty crappy, and doesn't give you extra or better uses of your class features (except the Armband of Confrontation (1400, arms) which adds 3 rounds to the duration of a Fighting Challenge). So 10,400gp will give you all the useful knight-related bonuses from the MIC.

[hex0]

I second this idea - PF Soulknife has something like it and it works really well. But I wouldn't restrict it to full BAB classes; after all, the loss of BAB in a 3/4 class would represent the trade off to get both PrCs features and keep your iconic knightly moves. Not to mention there are very few full bab classes with decent casting progression.

It doesn't have to be full bab, it is just that most prcs I can think of off the top of my head that don't require casting to enter are full BAB (Platinum Knight and Dragonslyer)

[JaronK]

Crusader is the obvious choice, though it's really just the remade version of the Knight class. Deepstone Sentinel then chains off that.

JaronK

[Tvtyrant]

There is always Chameleon :P

[hex0]

There is always Chameleon :P

That would be tough to go into from Knight though.