[PF] Ranger and Bard "Team"-Optimization (Help needed)

[Krazzman]

Hello Playground.

It's me again, but today not with a question for myself, more likely for my Girlfriend. First off, she doesn't want a cheesy build but a good "optimized" meaning, being effective most of the levels.

The concept she thought about is an Archery Ranger. But instead of taking Rapidshot, Manyshot and so on, she wants to use 1 Arrow to possibly kill her enemy.

But to the general outlines of the campaign:

We start in Eberron (jeah, Pathfinder in eberron) in a timid little village, isolated from the rest of the world. We probably start as Commoner 1 and need to qualify for our classes by Roleplay.
We probably will start without traits and flaws. And, if i get my diplomacy check right Pointbuy( let's assume 15 or 20).

Back to the character:

She wants to be a cunning Hunter, a Defender of the forest(protector of the pack), probably staying with Ranger. The minimum Int she wants to have is a 10, since our players mostly are allergic to a negative Intelligence bonus.
The Swift-Hitter Build advised by Treantmonk is against her likes. She prefers being Elf, Half-Elf or if it has to be: Human. At first it seems clear: Longbow + Vitalstrike Chain and so on. But there has to be more that can be done.

At level 6 I thought about: Composite Longbow + Gravity Bow (buff) + Deadly Aim and Vitalstrike resulting in: 4d8+4(+Str-Bonus) DMG.

The main Idea behind this is being able to pierce Damage Reduction easily. Since in the most campaigns she played with the DM (I personally only played one-shots with him but are psyched because of the quality of them) and noticed, everytime the ranger used many arrows, it was later only one thing: ineffective(since DR applies to every arrow).

First off, Prestige Classes later on are appreciated but Arcane Archer would be out (since only using Ranger). Furthermore stay away from magic Items, we mostly find them on our journey decided by "powerlevel".

[Since I wanted to play a Barde either Going Arcane Archer or going Dragon Disciple I thought for the latter option Taking Butterfly Sting to grant her my crits]

I hope you can help us. Feel free to give advice with multiclassing, but don't except her to like it.

[gartius]

Pathfinder has given archers some love in the form of clustered shots (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/clustered-shots-combat) but it goes against the one shot one arrow idea your gf wants.

they do give devastating strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/devastating-strike-combat) though so if you want to improve on the vital strike chain then thats the way to do so.

[Larpus]

Not exactly what you're looking for, but it might pay off to take a look at the Inquisitor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor), it's a bow&arrow based Divine half-caster, with D8 and 3/4 BAB. Same amount of skills as the Ranger and gets to choose a deity and a domain (similar to cleric), which can very well be a nature-based deity (or nature itself).

A friend is playing one in the current campaign and, honestly, straight out of the box it seems better than Ranger, especially if your DM won't tell you the correct critter type to get Favorite Enemy or simply is found of using a large portfolio of enemies.

[blackmage]

Bullseye shot (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/bullseye-shot-combat) is a huge accuracy boost on a single shot so it matches the desired build perfectly. And I know something about low Int was mentioned, but if somehow you have OK Int then Focused Shot (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/focused-shot-combat) might be useful too, but check with your DM if it can apply on top of Vital Strike.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

basically, archery is the best combat style in pathfinder. However, one shot one kill is decidedly difficult. you best route will be Deadly Aim/Manyshot in combination, for many arrows that deal good damage. overcoming DR via archery is much easier in Pathfinder.

If you want one shot, one kill, the best thing you can do is look at the rogue Scout archetype in the APG: by level 8 you can deal sneak attack damage with any attack if you have moved at least 10 ft. this is great if combined with vital strike chain, etc as you previously mentioned.

Inquisitors are great archers, (as are paladins) but they have huge bursts of damage... buffs that last for a certain amount of time and once used, are gone for the day. both the scout archetype rogue and the ranger are more onsistent in their damage dealing capabilities.

[Krazzman]

Thanks for the advice.

But since she wants an Animal Companion, Rogue, Paladin and so on are....OUT.

But how do you penetrate the DR? We faced a Mhorg(?) as BBEG on second level once and it had a DR that was just too huge for the Cleric, for me(Rogue/Fighter since the DM disallowed Sneak attack), the sorceress and the Wizard. And I don't see the difference between a Rangers 1d8+2 (Longbow) compared to my 1d8+2 (Longsword).

Again I ask you for advice on the part:

Race? Human, Half-elf or Elf?
Attributes? How much Strength and so on.
Feat progression? (Since we will start without feats, which should she take on what level?) For example:
Human: Point Blank
1st: Precise Shot
2nd(CS): Aspect of the Beast[Nightl Senses/Wild Instinct]
3rd: Deadly Aim

And in addition, since I would like to make it more teamplay with my Character a Bard, how could we combine things?
My tactic would be melee Bard(Arcane Duelist Archetype) going Dragon Disciple and Butterfly Sting as feat to grant her my crits. Are there others? Or should I go to Arcane Archer Bard(Archetype?) instead of this and be the second Archer? (Group should consist out of: Paladin?, Elf Wizard, Bard(Me), Ranger(her)) Any advice in that one is appreciated by me.

I hope you can help us furthermore.

[Knightofvictory]

To overcome DR, past lv. 7 there is this spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/v/versatile-weapon) and before that a few bludgeoning arrows from the APG should solve most of your problems. Actually, since you will be playing a bard you can cast it for her at 4th level. I don't know bards too well, but I'm guessing if you focus on the songs/buffs that bards are known for you will be plenty helpful to her, her animal friend, and the rest of the team too.

Since archer builds are pretty feat intensive (you really need point-blank, precise shot, and deadly aim as soon as you can get them) I would definitely go human if she will allow it. If not, half-elf and elf should be equally good. Give her as much STR as you can manage for composite bow, but ya, you gotta focus on DEX. Sounds like you have a few neat ideas for combos already, vital strike/deadly shot will probably be the best damage you can manage without going down the rapid shot/many shot line.

Hope this helps!

[Larpus]

Don't Composite Bows cap at +3?

Anyway, for overcoming DR, there's Clustered Shots as gartius suggested which goes a bit against the idea of one arrow to rule them all, but since it merges all the arrows in a single attack it can be flavored in somehow and I know the idea is also against this, but there is Arcane Strike, which requires her to take a level in any arcane class, as a swift action you add +1 to damage and the weapon is considered magic for overcoming DR.

Other than that...I really have no idea.

As for initial feats, I guess that the standard is Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot asap, so she won't get screwed if you ever fight in a space where she can't take her distance from the melees. After that it's either Deadly Aim or Rapid Shot, followed by the other one.

And about group dynamics, not sure if it's just me, but I usually prefer to have 2 melee guys in the party, so they can bro-fist each other while flanking enemies and create a wall so enemies can't easily get to the casters/archers (also, things don't die too fast at range, so the lone melee guy doesn't feel useless). Not much comment on Bard tho, not my favorite class at all (I prefer the other 3 arcane half-casters) and I never could quite understand them.

EDIT: Oh yeah, Animal Domain grants you Animal Companion under the same rules as Ranger, so Cleric and Inquisitor are still valid options.

[Doorhandle]

This build would REALLY work better with a gunslinger.

Mysterious stranger, pump Dex and charisma, get a huge gun like the double hackbut, use the deadly shot deed. Meteoric ****-tonnes of damage are yours, all for the low, (but still too expensive) cost of one bullet!

[MeeposFire]

Bullseye shot (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/bullseye-shot-combat) is a huge accuracy boost on a single shot so it matches the desired build perfectly. And I know something about low Int was mentioned, but if somehow you have OK Int then Focused Shot (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/focused-shot-combat) might be useful too, but check with your DM if it can apply on top of Vital Strike.

Just to note RAW focused shot will not work with vital strike as it is a standard action not an attack action (which happens to be a standard action but are not the same, it is a square is a rectangle but a rectangle isn't a square thing).

[Krazzman]

Ok, there are a few points.

The Gunslinger: It's out because of the missing companion and our starting place.

The Inquisitor: Probably out because our DM said classes should be Core only.

The Cleric: Is also out because she probably will be forced into being the healbot, which is against her likes.

Ammunition: Is there another way to do Subduing damage with Arrows or even with a Nodachi apart from "Mercy"-Enchantment? Can Versatile Ammunition grant this Bonus? And how are Crits handled with a subduing weapon? Are crits with a subduing weapon automatically deadly damage?

Spell selection: Since we are going to start at level 1 in a Party with probably a Wizard, a Paladin, her a Ranger and me a Bard, how should my Spell selection look like to be of best use? For the record, I'll probably start with 14 Cha and a 18 in Strength. But what other spells should I choose apart from Versatile Ammunition?

ACF: Could somebody tell me if it would be an advantage for her to take the Shapeshift variant of the ranger?

Hope you can help us again.

[Knightofvictory]

The Blunt Arrows (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/ammunition/ammunition-bow-arrow-blunt) from the APG I mentioned before can do subdual damage at the usual -4 penalty. Basically arrows with a dulled end. Criticals are calculated as normal, but as subdual damage. You cannot kill someone by RAW if you declare a subdual attack.

If your girlfriend is really serious about knocking people out with arrows then there is the feat Bludgeoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/bludgeoner-combat)from Ultimate Combat combined with the blunt arrows. But that is yet another feat, and she will need as many as she can for the archery line (point-blank, precise shot, deadly aim) especially at low level. Much easier to take the heal skill and try to stabilize someone bleeding to death after you shot them (I'm assuming she wants to play a character that hates killing), or to just have a philosophy of not firing except in life or death situations. Hope this helps with her concept.

I'm terrible at picking spells, and not overly familiar with the Bard's list so I can't help you there, I'm afraid. A melee bard is a pretty gutsy concept, maybe take Extra Performance so you can always have your attack/damage buff up in combat? +1 to attack and damage for you, your GF and the paladin is probably the best thing you can do at low levels.

[Hiro Protagonest]

But how do you penetrate the DR? We faced a]Mhorg(?) as BBEG on second level once and it had a DR that was just too huge for the Cleric, for me(Rogue/Fighter since the DM disallowed Sneak attack), the sorceress and the Wizard. And I don't see the difference between a Rangers 1d8+2 (Longbow) compared to my 1d8+2 (Longsword).

Okay, this DM is bad. Mohrg is CR 8, which is one more than the most powerful creature you should fight at that level. It also doesn't have DR, so he made that thing even MORE powerful. The sneak attack bit was just the last straw.

[Krazzman]

Okay, this DM is bad. Mohrg is CR 8, which is one more than the most powerful creature you should fight at that level. It also doesn't have DR, so he made that thing even MORE powerful. The sneak attack bit was just the last straw.

To smooth this a bit, we didn't knew undead were not immune to that anymore. But jeah it was still a friggin mess...since it had an DR also as I have to read...

But I would like some more advice.

[El Dorado]

Weapons with +3 enchantment and greater can also overcome different types of damage reduction. Something to keep in mind for later levels.

[Krazzman]

To forward this a bit I'll post the starting builds so far for us two:


Nathan Yin

Human Arcane Duelist Bard 1 going Dragon Disciple
Assuming Point Buy 15
Str (+2 racial): 17 (7)
Dex: 13 (3)
Con: 12 (2)
Int: 13 (3)
Wis: 7 (-4)
Cha: 14 (5)

Feats:
Human: Weapon Prof (entweder Falchion oder Nodachi)
1st Level: Combat Expertise (going Butterfly sting later)
Bard Bonus: Arcane Strike (replaces Bardic Knowledge)

But now comes the knackpoint. 3rd level can now be Powerattack or Butterfly Sting. Which should I prefer? I either wanted to go Critical Focus or enchanting my weapon with Keen later.

+ The Alternative:

Half Elf Bard (Archery Build going Arcane Archer) (Half elf since I'm not allowed to play elves ever again^^)
Assuming Point Buy 15
Str: 14 (5)
Dex (+2 racial): 17 (7)
Con: 10
Int: 12 (2)
Wis: 7 (-4)
Cha: 14 (5)

Feats:
1st Level: Pointblank Shot



[Unknown]

Human Wildshape Ranger
Assuming Point Buy 15
Str: 14 (5)
Dex (+2 racial): 17 (7)
Con: 10
Int: 12 (2)
Wis: 14 (5)
Cha: 7 (-4)

Feats:
Human: Point Blank Shot
1st Level: Precise Shot


As a end-term advice I would like you to look at these 3 builds and comment them.