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Mastikator
2011-10-02, 07:48 AM
Hello playground,
this is basically the situation, I'm playing a PC who the other player's characters don't trust. The other players like my character, but their characters don't.
Now these are our characters.
- Mine, Galsrik, a rich priest of Gave, youngest in our group, physically strong and good looking, very intelligent, very impulsive and greedy, not violent unless provoked, also extremely arrogant, he's not above using trickery to succeed, does prefer to use words over actions though.
- A half elf named Heloin, he's short, poor, rogue/bard and a complete and utter bigot against followers of Gave (incidentally my characters religion). He describes him as "morally gray", but has also commented that he would've attempted to murder my character if it wasn't for the Shield Guardian (read below), he doesn't seem to understand that hate based murder is not morally gray, it's utterly evil.
- Next is a half-elf who's name I've forgotten, but will be known as the Shield Guardian, he's a high-priest warrior of his country's state religion, he's basically a noble man, and the code of conduct of his nobility states that he must seek the truth in all things, never tell a lie, and he plays this well, his character is truthful in words and in spirit, no "only tell half the truth" trickery. This character doesn't trust my character because he is against greed and impulsively, my character likes his because he is nobility and does trust him. The Shield Guardian doesn't trust Heloin because Heloin is untrustworthy, Heloin doesn't trust the Shield Guardian because he has trust issues.
Then there are a bunch of other players who've been mostly passive, none of them seem to keen on either of us however, especially my character and Heloin, they mostly think the Shield Guardians honesty crap is annoying.

And here's the background:
We were on our first quest, the quest was that a noble woman had made a deal with a wizard (wizardry is outlawed) to get rain, in exchange for gold, or so we thought, when we confronted the wizard he gave us the contract, in it it stated that she had not given the wizard gold but sold her own daughter, and the wizard wants her daughter because she has some inborn magic that is valued by his tribe.
Before we had confronted him the Shield Guardian had made us promise to not use violence against the wizard, which we all agreed, but in turn I made him agree to tell on the religious authority about the noble womans dealings, because according to my PCs religion wizardry is evil.
The wizard explained the magic he used, he showed us a small tree and said that the rain that was going to wash over the tree for the next thousand years had been poured over the noble womans village in the last three years.
We struck a deal with the wizard, he removes the spell in five days and in turn he gets the noble womans daughter (who she has not been willing to give away, breaking her end of the deal). My character objected to this because we shouldn't give a girl to an evil wizard (not actually evil, but my character thinks he is). The objections are ignored, so my character tries to destroy the tree, he fails and the Shield Guardian tackles him. Because of this he doesn't trust my character.

Now, what I need is ideas of how my character should try to win the other PCs back.
I have two ideas, one is to buy them each something nice (I was thinking a big party, lots of food and beer and stuff), or
Lecture them on how they are wrong in their judgment. I think I can drive a good point, but you know, you can't depend on the ability to reason of others.
Accepting non-trust isn't an option, the group needs to stay together, I don't want to make a new character, and I don't want the other's to make new characters.

Another thing to note is that the player playing Heloin has a prejudgment against my characters, he is under the impression that they are always evil, which actually isn't true.

The Glyphstone
2011-10-02, 08:10 AM
The half-elf is bringing OOC prejudices IC, smack him with the PHB until he stops being a moron.

The Shield Guardian sounds like a great IC dynamic...how does he feel about simply turning a blind eye when it's necessary, in the 'keep his mouth shut and let someone else speak the lies' fashion? Is he simply true-honestly Lawful Good, or Lawful Stupid to the 'yes, we are trying to infiltrate your cult in disguise' degree?

Mastikator
2011-10-02, 10:01 AM
The Shield Guardian is super deontological about deception in general being wrong.
On a seperate later occation after the first quest, two individuals in our group tried to infiltrate a castle by saying they were "the new workers", the Shield Guardian had a problem with it because they weren't.

Should be noted that I don't want him to change his character, but rather, how can my character accommodate/trick him into liking my character. I just need him to take my side over Heloin if needed. It's a long story why the Shield Guardian is important to my character.

The Glyphstone
2011-10-02, 11:54 AM
Be scrupulously honest whenever he's around, and save your lies for when he's not?

Kol Korran
2011-10-02, 01:19 PM
hhhmmmmm.. a few thoughts:
- make a rousing speech on how though you do not fully agree with the shield Guardian's views, it made you think... then ask him some philosophical/ ethical questions, but accept his words as if you're deeply thinking about them, agree to key points (to gain his approval), disagree about minor points (to retain some realism, not "turning in all at once) the idea is to give him the impression he has some sort of effect on you, and if he'll just believe and support you, you might "turn out right".

i assume this is not true, but i hope your bluff is good enough.

- you might go out of your way to show your acceptance (whether grudging acceptance or more... accepting acceptance? as described in the previous part)- you may buy the girl some dinner and a show before sending her to the wizard, or maybe compensate the mother (tastefully! don't rise her anger!) or perhaps something else. i'd advise against buying stuff for the characters, as it would look like outright bribery. instead, be more subtle- spend money in a way that doesn't seem to benefit you, or them, just "in character/ roleplay thing/ character development"

-if you're clever enough (and i suggest you work it out with the DM before the meeting) you could do what maverick (in the movie) did: he wanted to give the impression he's a tough guy, so h hired several guys to drag him out of a bar, and stage a fight with him, where he'll "dodge" their blows, and each of his hits "smacked them" down. he got some respect for that!

in your version you could hire some low lives to put on an act to raise your ray. some ideas:

a mother and a few children approach you: "thank you! thank you! you had taken care of us in the great hunger! we would have persished without you! such a generous soul!" and so on
a lame one legged man comes towards you "this man? i'll buy him a drink! at the battle of X, he showed more courage than a wounded lion! true, he likes to play boisterous and slick tongue, but under a fight? under real stress? there is NO one i'd rather have with me! let me tell you the story of the man's courage
going by a bard he can weave whatever song or tail you want. perhaps one of "the honest man, true to his friends, true to his heart" and so on? at the end the bard mentions your name, or some other identifying mark of you (clothing, status, house)
you get the general idea. just three things to remember: pick GOOD liars, don't overdo this, and know that if you are found out, this plan backfires as hell!


- another approach would be to explain yourself, persuasively. some players can do it, some are less persuasive. it depends on you.

i hope this helps,
kol.

Mastikator
2011-10-02, 03:10 PM
Excellent advice, thank you!

Sith_Happens
2011-10-02, 03:30 PM
Now, what I need is ideas of how my character should try to win the other PCs back.
I have two ideas, one is to (A) buy them each something nice (I was thinking a big party, lots of food and beer and stuff), or
(B) Lecture them on how they are wrong in their judgment. I think I can drive a good point, but you know, you can't depend on the ability to reason of others.

Things I've learned from Dragon Age #42:
Option (A) above always works.
Option (B) above never works.

:smallwink:


Accepting non-trust isn't an option, the group needs to stay together, I don't want to make a new character, and I don't want the other's to make new characters.

It's possible for the party to trust you without necessarily agreeing with you (and vice-versa), and in fact that can make for an interesting party dynamic. Basically, if they know your reasoning behind (most) of what you do, said reasoning is fairly sound, and you generally mean the best for the party and its outcomes, then they should be inclined to try your plan at least some of the time. Though expect the Shield Guardian to disapprove (+5 Rivalry).

Note that the above applies to everyone except the half-elf. Your best bet with him is to privately explain your concerns to the Shield Guardian, then sit back and watch the sparks fly.:smallamused:

Shadespyre
2011-10-02, 06:51 PM
Interesting situation. I've encountered a lot of similar issues as I have a reputations as a player of "dodgy" characters with their own secrets and agendas. In general, I've always found that this is accepted by fellow players and their characters as long as you are all basically pulling in the same direction and working to achieve (at least some of) the same goals. RPGs are a collaborative activity not a competition!

You say that the other players all like your character? As long as that is true then everything should work out - but be sure that it is true! The fact that you only mention 3 characters and describe the other players as "passive" suggests that may not actually be the case. It's a bad sign if you can't even remember the name and class of your other companions, it suggests that three egotists (characters and/or players!) are hogging the game. Take a step back and see if that is the case!

It's not clear from your description why this group of characters is together. Frankly, your DM should have taken a look at this and made sure any character clashes were not too disruptive. There must be a darned good reason why someone who hates your deity stays with you, and a darned good reason why you all put up with your paladin-like fellow. Are you on a specific mission? Is the Shield Guardian your official leader for some reason? Regardless, I suggest that you should get together and re-establish the reasons why you don't all split up (and "I like my character" is not a realistic one!). You may want to have this discussion as Players before you have it as Characters, so you can establish that you intend it to have a positive outcome! The aim should be to confirm your common aims, and to discuss what compromises each member of the group is willing to make (both as players and as characters) in order to achieve those. I notice you describe your character as "young" "impulsive" "arrogant" but also "very intelligent" - this means you could always have him grow up a bit as he rapidly learns from his mistakes!

You don't say what your religious tenets are apart from hating wizards (is everyone in your group a bigot of some sort???) so I don't really see why you are constantly in conflict with the Shield Guardian. If you're not compelled to dishonesty by your god then I suggest playing it straight with this guy!

Whatever you intend to do, take more notice of the "passive" players. Seek the support of them and their characters! If they have no reason to hate your Priest, then they can be persuaded with words, gifts, grand gestures and most importantly the players will be grateful for you paying them some notice and bringing them to the fore! And if there are 3 of them, that gives you a 4 to 2 (probably 5 to 1 as Bard and Guardian seem unlikely allies!) advantage in any arguments that come up. Be the voice of moderation, be the voice of compromise, be the voice of the silent (passive? bored??) majority and you will prevail!

Remember - RPGs are about a bunch of people ALL having fun :)

Anderlith
2011-10-02, 10:53 PM
You're playing an arrogant conniving greedy holy man & you are wondering why the party doesn't trust you?:smallconfused: But don't worry I can help

Here's what you do. Ask truthy guy what the outcome be if the if the tree would be destroyed, he will have to tell the truth framing it in a way for the rest of the party to adhere to definition-wise. You then ask them if they abdicate slavery. This should make them uncomfortable. Ask truthy guy what the definition of slavery is. Tell them that you were wrong, that you should have spoken to them before you tried to kill the tree (this is not true). Tell them what they intend to do about a human trafficking outlaw that is holding an entire towns prosperity hostage. Lay on the guilt. But whatever you do be self deprecating. Say it is your fault that you did not make the plight real enough for the others to see. That you should have taken a different path, etc. (Also not true). Then tell them exactly how heroic they will look when they set things right, tell them of the riches & glory that will be bestowed upon them we the village sees that they have caught the man that caused the drought & was only going to stop the drought if this poor noble woman gave him her daughter. (Also not true)

This should get the rogue of your back about being evil & make you look like the martyr. NEVER underestimate martyrs.

Mastikator
2011-10-03, 01:13 AM
@Sith_Happens, explain reasoning, gotcha.

@Shadespyre, actually I do know their names, it's just that they don't seem to have a problem, they are Klodkar, Fridekil, Adriann and last and heightwise also least, the dwarf, only seen one session of play where I've been present (I missed one due to illness), don't recall the name.
The reason we originally banded together was because we were all called in for a quest by the aforementioned noblewoman, then I missed one session and now I've forgotten why we stuck together. (though, we are still escorting the noble-womans daughter to the wizard)
My character is a priest for social reasons (the game system we use is without levels and classes), and from priests certain values are expected socially, my character isn't really a bigot, but where he comes from even sympathizing with wizards is seen as wrong and evil, though not illegal. Technically my character is compelled to honesty by his god, but he's not really the spiritual type, if he was he would have to be almost as honest as the Shield Guardian, but also gung-ho about converting non-believers. Not everyone is a bigot, only the half elf (against me and Fridekil) and Fridekil (against wizards)

GoblinArchmage
2011-10-03, 02:26 PM
You're playing an arrogant conniving greedy holy man & you are wondering why the party doesn't trust you?:smallconfused: But don't worry I can help

Here's what you do. Ask truthy guy what the outcome be if the if the tree would be destroyed, he will have to tell the truth framing it in a way for the rest of the party to adhere to definition-wise. You then ask them if they abdicate slavery. This should make them uncomfortable. Ask truthy guy what the definition of slavery is. Tell them that you were wrong, that you should have spoken to them before you tried to kill the tree (this is not true). Tell them what they intend to do about a human trafficking outlaw that is holding an entire towns prosperity hostage. Lay on the guilt. But whatever you do be self deprecating. Say it is your fault that you did not make the plight real enough for the others to see. That you should have taken a different path, etc. (Also not true). Then tell them exactly how heroic they will look when they set things right, tell them of the riches & glory that will be bestowed upon them we the village sees that they have caught the man that caused the drought & was only going to stop the drought if this poor noble woman gave him her daughter. (Also not true)

This should get the rogue of your back about being evil & make you look like the martyr. NEVER underestimate martyrs.

I like this. Make with the Socratic irony and get them to admit that they are selling the noble's daughter into slavery.

Lord Vampyre
2011-10-03, 06:02 PM
Buying something nice for Helion will probably work on bringing him over to your side. Just make sure it is something that he'll use regularly. Then as he uses it during a battle, simply ask him how it's working out for him. This will remind him of the debt that he owes you.

Unfortunately, the same tactic won't work for the Shield Guardian. Your best bet here is to take his side on a critical decision. Showing your full support when it goes against your best interest will do the same as above. Now, if he is playing Paladin-type character he'll start to trust you more, but won't feel indebted to you. Paladin-type characters rarely feel indebted to anyone, as they see their actions as being for the greater good.