Epic Level Sorcadin Gish

[Golden Ladybug]

So, after browsing the Player Recruitment forum, I've joined up with a 3.5 Epic level game to be played over some sort of Chat service, thing (We don't have a DM yet, so if you're Interested... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217106)) I've decided to put my build down for Posterity, because I'm feeling pretty proud of it. And, you know, if anyone sees any improvements, I'm always happy to take advice.

The Build:

At Level 21-

Race: Silverbrow Human
Class: Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 4/Incantatrix 10
BAB: +14/+9/+4
Saves: F29 R28 W34
Str 10 (16) Dex 18 (24) Con 12 (18) Int 16 Wis 10 Cha 26 (32)

Feats: 1) Able Learner
Human) Iron Will
3) Maximise Spell
6) Combat Casting
9) Practical Metamagic: Maximise
Incantatrix 1) Twin Spell
12) Quick Recovery
Incantatrix 4) Invisible Spell
15) Practical Metamagic: Twin
Incantatrix 7) Empower Spell
18) Practised Spellcaster
Incantatrix 10) Easy Metamagic: Twin
21) Power Attack

Skills: 5 Bluff
24 Concentration
24 Diplomacy
19 Knowledge Arcana
16 Knowledge Nature
5 Knowledge Nobility and Royalty
5 Sense Motive
20 Spellcraft

Spells: 0: Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Ghost Sounds, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Prestidigation, Read Magic
1: Enlarge Person, Lesser Orb of Acid, True Strike, True Casting, Shield
2: Combust, Glitterdust, Ray of Stupidity, Wings of Cover, Wraithstrike
3: Greater Mighty Wallop, Heart of Water, Phantom Steed, Wind Wall
4: Assay Spell Resistance, Celerity, Orb of Cold, Wings of Flurry
5: Arcane Fusion, Telekinesis, Undying Vigour of the Dragon Lords, Wall of Force
6: Disintergrate, Greater Dispel Magic, Greater Mirror Image
7: Arcane Spellsurge, Justice of the Wyrm King, Summon Monster VII
8: Greater Arcane Fusion, Moment of Prescience
9: Prismatic Sphere

This is how the Build will stand when the Game Starts. I'm pretty happy with it. With the Gear Keila's holding, she has an AC of 42, HP of 192 (131 really, but don't tell anyone) and can get her miss chance up to 92%. That's more than enough to function in Melee. She can cast as a 18th Level Sorcerer, and has a Caster level of 21.

Also she can use Summon Bigger Fish (AKA flying really high above a slow moving enemy with a Phantom Steed and using Summon Monster VII to drop a Celestial Baleen Whale on them. 240^Xd6 damage by Whale is an amazing way to kill things). Now with Wall of Force, this is actually a real thing. I just need to figure out the proper way to do it

Now, this part is secret, so no one who is going to be playing in the Campaign with me is allowed to look :smallwink:

Haven't quite figured this out yet; bear with me for now

I'm thinking this for a possible progression. I have no idea how to fill those 6 Levels though. Could be anything, really.

22) Abjurant Champion 5
-At some point, get Atonement cast on me by a Cleric
23) Paladin 3
24) Paladin 4
Feat) Divine Might
25) -Blank-
26) -Blank-
27) -Blank-
Feat) -Blank-
28) -Blank-
29) -Blank-
30) -Blank-
Feat) Epic Spellcasting

[Urpriest]

Can't drop whales on people, summons have to be summoned on a surface that can support them, read the description of the [Summoning] subschool.

And not getting BAB +16 is worrying if you're going epic, since you'll never get any more attacks.

[Golden Ladybug]

Really? Don't I get extra BAB from taking levels in non-epic classes? *Goes and checks SRD* oh, thats sucks. I'd only get +17/+12/+7/+2 at the very most. Lame.

Oh well, I'm primarily a Caster anyway :smallsmile:

Dropping whales on people was mostly a joke...although if I retrain something into Wall of Force...

[DeAnno]

If I recall correctly, Easy, Practical, and Incantatrix are all incapable of reducing a metamagic below +1. So no matter which order of operations school you follow, you don't need Easy Maximize. Paladin 3 isn't really necessary, and you could use your extra feat slot to take Combat Casting and qualify for Abjurant Champion. So you would look more like:

Pally 2/Sorc 4/Spellsword 1/Abj Champ 4/Incantatrix 10 (Those 5 extra sorc levels looked like a typo)

And you'd have a BaB of +13 along with 19th level casting.

As for spells, you definitely want Shivering Touch (Frostburn) in this build. One problem with Greater Dim Door is you can't attack after using that move action (See Dimension Door itself), which is why I'm partial to jamming Dimension Hop into Arcane Fusions instead. Also, this being a gish I think you want Wraithstrike as well, and if you're worried about action efficiency it can jam into Fusions pretty easily too. If you don't have specific gear for vision, you also need See Invis (Glitterdust doesn't cut it alone, though it's useful) or more probably True Seeing at that level.

[Golden Ladybug]

Nothing is ever as fun as it could be :smallfrown: and everyday I learn my CO-fu is weaker than I thought it was

Okay, I'll probably drop Greater Dimension Door(I was thinking of it as an escape method, rather than to get into attack position, but spells slots are important) like you suggested, and pick up Wraithstrike over Shatter. Character theme is very anti-necromancy, so no Shivering Touch unfortunately.

Hey, Wall of Force and Greater Dimension Door are the same spell level. What a coincidence

Abjurant Champion isn't actually that appealing to me for this Build; I'm using actual armor, which increases my AC more than Mage Armor or Shield would, and I don't have enough Abjuration spells for the other abilities to really shine...well, except for Arcane Boost, but I think I'm already toeing the line of too much cheese with Arcane Fusion, Spellsurge, Wings of Cover and Celerity all on the same build. I suppose If I drop Feather Fall and picked up Shield there it would be worth it using the Abjuration boosts as well...Dammit, you've sold it to me. I'll take levels in it.

I like Paladin 3, but its really a level for Flavor, rather than Optimization. I wouldn't be too upset about dropping it.

Yeah, the Sorcerer 5 was just me saying I would take the 5th level of Sorcerer, to grab 3rd level Arcane Spells to go into Incantatrix. Once again, not optimal.

So, as a Build, I should probably shift to the one you suggested. Or, keep the 3rd level of Paladin and take only 3 Levels of Abjurant Champion (for now) to avoid getting scathing emails from the other players and DM. Probably better to do that.

Also, many props on The Mailman. You did the world a great service by writing that guide

[Mystral]

How about Sacred Exorcist?

[DeAnno]

Sacred Exorcist would need to be combined with some way to make the spells Divine for DMM to work (unless you're suggesting Turn Undead for something else). The only good way I could see would be Southern Magician, and paying two feats for that and DMM Enhance would be less efficient than just using Easy/Practical on it and making it +1.

[Urpriest]

Sacred Exorcist would need to be combined with some way to make the spells Divine for DMM to work (unless you're suggesting Turn Undead for something else). The only good way I could see would be Southern Magician, and paying two feats for that and DMM Enhance would be less efficient than just using Easy/Practical on it and making it +1.

It's 3/4 BAB (not too useful if you're maxing Incantatrix anyway, but still), and gives access to Divine Might, a nice way of gishing it up when you have high Cha. I rarely see anyone using it with DMM on an arcane build.

[Golden Ladybug]

Taking a 4th level in Paladin would net me 13 uses of Turn Undead per day, but thats sub-optimal choice for getting DMM. I suppose I could take Sacred Exorcist after 21.

I'm not sure I'll use Enhance Spell right now. I might bump Arcane Strike back down to 21, and maybe take Persist Spell to cast Shield for 24 Hours, for the synergy with Abjurant Champion. I use 6th level spells hardly ever, and I get bonus slots, so its not a big loss there. DMM: Persist Spell is inherently more evil than DMM: Enhance Spell, of course.

I'll also see what I can do about saying I had both Arcane Sight and Permancey on my Spell List, used them to both to give myself permanent Arcane Sight and then retrained them. That should solve my Vision Problems.

[Mystral]

I wasn't suggesting it for divine meta magic, it's just a good gish class, offerering full spellprogression, 3/4 Bab and a nice set of abilities. Surely better then eldritch knight.

[Golden Ladybug]

Yeah, I was only taking Eldritch Knight because I've been building this between 12pm-4am, and I don't think that well during right now.

Sacred Exorcist would be great if it weren't for the skill tax. Fitting in 10 ranks of Knowledge The Planes and 7 Knowledge Religion is hard, especially since I really, really want to optimize Diplomacy. Taking a one level dip somewhere post 21 to grab Turn Undead and Divine Might would be grand, but I'll have to see if I can manage it.

[Gotterdammerung]

I like your Gish.

I've been tinkering with a Abjurer wiz3/ Abjurer master specialist 10/ initiate of the 7 folds veil 7 (20) for a while and i've been slowly improving on my anti-spellcasting archer build.

Would be fun to have a mock fight with your Gish with either of these characters once i get them finished.

There both sort of designed around unraveling casters, so it would be a good chance to see where the holes are.

[Golden Ladybug]

That'd be great :smallsmile:

I've already dueled a Melee-focused Dr(agon)uid/Master of Many Forms with pretty much a similar build, and did pretty well. I learnt to never put your G.Mirror Images in a formation that would allow them all to be hit by a Breath Weapon :smallmad:

So yeah, at some point in the future we shall do battle. But not now. I need to sleep now.

[Gotterdammerung]

I also found transdimensional spell was pretty fun when i played my incantrix.

It adds some util versus ethereal enemies and casters using ethereal or shadow plane to protect them, but it is very useful for any dangerous long lasting spell the enemy casts on the board when used in conjunction with Metamagic effect from incantrix. Sphere of annihilation floating around the room? Move it to the plane of shadow and walk right through it. Storm of Fury messing up the board? Treat the ethereal plain to some rain. Stone to Magma making the floor too hot? Move it to the plane of shadow. Antimagic field stopping all your spells? Move it to the plain of shadow.

It's not offensively powerful but it combo's well and adds some util.

[Babale]

That'd be great :smallsmile:

I've already dueled a Melee-focused Dr(agon)uid/Master of Many Forms with pretty much a similar build, and did pretty well. I learnt to never put your G.Mirror Images in a formation that would allow them all to be hit by a Breath Weapon :smallmad:

So yeah, at some point in the future we shall do battle. But not now. I need to sleep now.

Of course, you wiped the floor with me with spells. I don't think you made a single attack :P

Here's what I recommend:
1) Get Freedom of Movement. Had my first attack hit, I would have used Snatch to initiate a grapple and you would have been dead in a round or two.
2) I'm not sure if you have more elemental options, but you did most of your damage with Orbs of Cold. If I had remembered that White Dragons get a cone attack as well and shifted into that instead, would you have had a direct damage method of hitting me?

I need to post one of these threads too, and we need to have a rematch...

[hex0]

Sorcerer 5/(spellcasting boosting prc) 1/Incantatrix 8/Sacred Exorcist 1/Pious Templar 1/Prestige Paladin 2/Abjurant Champion 3

Pious Templar 1/Prestige Paladin 2 is strictly better than Paladin 3. You get Mettle and essentially cast as a 6th level Paladin, which isn't that great at epic level, but still. Mettle is nice when you have Disintigrates flying around.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

If I recall correctly, Easy, Practical, and Incantatrix are all incapable of reducing a metamagic below +1. So no matter which order of operations school you follow, you don't need Easy Maximize.
Metamagic School Focus (CMg) does reduce metamagic below +1, but it has Spell Focus as a prerequisite and it works only for one chosen school of magic.

[Godskook]

1.Abjurant Champion provides among the best armor/shield boni in the game and even into epic progressions are hard to beat. Your shield spell provides the AC bonus of a +5 tower shield or epic +7 heavy shield, for *FREE*. Equipping yourself with that epic heavy shield, however, would bet at least a +9 shield, before other modifications since you're going to want Animated to keep your hands free. Imho, 810k is too much to be worth it replacing a shield spell with an actual shield. On the armor side, you're casting greater luminous armor, providing yourself with +13 armor, effectively +17 against sighted melee, which is on par with +5 full plate, or +8 breastplate. That's another 640k worth of items you'll likely be spending, cause you're probably not using the full plate. Also note that unlike the gear, the spells have no enhancement bonuses on them, meaning you can then stack magic vestments(from a friendly cleric) for an additional +5. You can then also wear armor which provides more non-AC bonuses than an equally wealthed person while still providing an AC boost comparable to +12(+14 equivalent) heavy shield and +13 breastplate.

2.Travel Devotion + Divine Might makes Sacred Exorcist practically required for a Sorcadin gish.

3.Ascetic Mage + Unarmed Swordsage provides you with Cha to AC without giving up your armor slot(your shield slot goes bye-bye, though, making Abjurant Champ's shield spell even tastier than described above).

I'll post more when I can actually look up what Tattoo'ed monk gives with those tattoos.

[Psyren]

Pious Templar 1/Prestige Paladin 2 is strictly better than Paladin 3. You get Mettle and essentially cast as a 6th level Paladin, which isn't that great at epic level, but still. Mettle is nice when you have Disintigrates flying around.

How are you getting into PP without Turn Undead though?

[Quietus]

Hey, Wall of Force and Greater Dimension Door are the same spell level. What a coincidence

Which is a great spell, but do take note that it specifically summons a vertical wall of force, so you can't use it for air-dropping summon spells.


Yeah, the Sorcerer 5 was just me saying I would take the 5th level of Sorcerer, to grab 3rd level Arcane Spells to go into Incantatrix. Once again, not optimal.

I may have missed something, but Sorcerer 5 doesn't get you third level spells, generally. You need Sorcerer 6 for that.

[herrhauptmann]

And not getting BAB +16 is worrying if you're going epic, since you'll never get any more attacks.
**Yup, once epic, the BAB of your various classes and PrC doesn't matter, since all epic characters get an epic attack bonus that doesn't provide extra attacks.

Epic Attack Bonus

Similarly, the character’s base attack bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all attacks at every odd-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base attack bonus (except for gaining additional attacks), use the sum of your base attack bonus and epic attack bonus.
So you'll be stuck with just 3 attacks per round until you start throwing out things like Haste.
Please see Adding a Second Class. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm#addingaSecondClass")


**Also, you've only got 8th level spells listed in your level 20 build. Unless you can reach 9th level spells by 20th level, you'll never get them. Nor will you be able to take improved spell capacity and epic casting.

**Spell list. I've got a small list of spells that Shneekey the Lost helped me out with for a gish of my own.

1st Level Spells:
Grease (PHB)
Mage Armor (PHB)
Nerveskitter (SC)
Shield (PHB)
Fist of Stone (CArc)

2nd Level Spells:
Mirror Image (PHB)
Wraithstrike (SC)
Luminous Armor (BoED) Great spell, but need to be a preparation caster.

3rd Level Spells:
Haste (PHB)
Dispel Magic (PHB)

4th Level Spells:
Dimension Door (PHB)
Polymorph (PHB)
Greater Luminous Armor Great spell, but need to be a preparation caster.

5th Level Spells:
Acid Sheath (SC)
Baleful Polymorph(PHB)
Teleport (PHB)

6th Level Spells:
Disintegrate (PHB)
Contingency (PHB)
Greater Dispel Magic (SC)


7th Level Spells:
Energy Absorption (SC)
Force Cage (PHB)
Limited Wish (PHB)
Prismatic Spray (PHB)
Reverse Gravity (PHB)


8th Level Spells:
Mind Blank (PHB)
Polymorph Any Object (PHB)

9th Level Spells:
Time Stop (PHB)
Gate (PHB)
Shapechange (PHB)
Wish (PHB)

A lot of the gish handbooks I checked, it seemed like the writer just took their favorite spells out of the God Wizard lists. Which is fine, if a lower CL won't cripple your use of spells (generally it does for a God wizard).

**Item selection:
Have you put any thought into that?
A 'smoking' weapon would be some nice free miss chances. But cloaks of displacement will be affordable at your level.
At epic levels, dealing damage is pretty much meaningless. So as cool as your 9d6 fists might be, they're not too helpful. Sudden Stunning (DMG2) weapons will be nice, as are any other options you have to hand out status effects to your enemies. Shaken/Held/Stunned/Cursed/Negative Levels/Stat damage, etc.
Blueshine/Durable armor will protect your armor from rust/acid. There's a few things that can destroy them, no save.
Ditto for Everbright weapons.
MiC says you can enchant bracers of armor like they're magical armor. So Soulfire (BoED) bracers will stop most death effects and other negative energy issues. (That's if you go monk and can't wear normal armor, even padded)

[hex0]

How are you getting into PP without Turn Undead though?

Dang, gonna have to throw some sacred exorcist in there.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

**Also, you've only got 8th level spells listed in your level 20 build. Unless you can reach 9th level spells by 20th level, you'll never get them. Nor will you be able to take improved spell capacity and epic casting.
Uh, what? Yes you do.

[Hirax]

Uh, what? Yes you do.

I'm going to agree with this. I believe the passage that would lead one to believe you can't increase your caster progression once you hit 21st level simply means that once you hit level 20 on the spells/day chart, you don't get more. This interpretation is supported by the entry on multiclassing in epic levels, where it specifically says you can learn new spells. That you could gain new spells for one class but not another doesn't make sense.

[herrhauptmann]

Uh, what? Yes you do.

Then why is it so imperative that a gish character reaches 9th level casting (and bab 16) by 20th level in a build?
Same reason why any epic swiftblade is encouraged to finish the swiftblade PrC in epic levels, when the lost casting levels don't matter.
3 to 1, makes me think I've misread something...

[Godskook]

Then why is it so imperative that a gish character reaches 9th level casting (and bab 16) by 20th level in a build?

Cause the ELH explicitly says that BAB stops progressing at level 20 and EAB takes over at level 21.


Same reason why any epic swiftblade is encouraged to finish the swiftblade PrC in epic levels, when the lost casting levels don't matter.

1.Not the same reasons, since BAB/EAB rules are clearly spelled out and only apply to them, while casting rules aren't listed anywhere as happening differently just cause you hit ECL 21.

2.The main reason to finish swiftblade in epic instead of non-epic is only for character builds that are 'in practice'. If you're starting a build at epic levels(and thus, never have to lose 9ths for your choice), finishing Swiftblade 10 pre-epic is perfectly acceptable, and probably even suggested, considering then you'll have an epic-ready prestige class ready to go when you hit epic for more epic bonus feats.

[Glimbur]

Then why is it so imperative that a gish character reaches 9th level casting (and bab 16) by 20th level in a build?
Same reason why any epic swiftblade is encouraged to finish the swiftblade PrC in epic levels, when the lost casting levels don't matter.
3 to 1, makes me think I've misread something...

9th level casting by 20th level is a standard because most games don't go to epic. Granted, many games don't go to 20th either, but it's a convenient stopping place.

Under the heading
The following guidelines describe how the epic class progressions.

-For spellcasters, caster level continues to increase after 20th level. However, spells per day don’t increase after 20th level. The only way to gain additional spells per day (other than the bonus spells gained from a high ability score) is to select the Improved Spell Capacity epic feat.

Which means that this restriction only applies to Epic Class Progressions i.e. Cleric 21+ or what have you.

Before that, in the section which describes EAB and Epic Save Bonuses, there is no discussion of being unable to progress spellcasting after Character Level 20 provided you have not reached 20th level of casting progression. Put these facts together and it seems clear to me that Fighter5/Wizard 20 casts the same as Wizard 20/Fighter 5.

[Hirax]

It's worth pointing out that a huge reason to get level 9 spells by 21st level is the pre reqs for many epic feats, including epic spellcasting, are the ability to cast 9th level spells. So there's a lot of validity to trying to get level 9 spells by level 21 so that you can take one of the good caster feats immediately.

[Keld Denar]

Also, your Bellflower Tattoo/bonus spells trick. You only get bonus spells when you refresh your spells/day (like right after you sleep), so temp increases to Cha won't make any difference.

It seems like you'd be better served by a more pure caster in this regard. You don't really seem like much of a gish, no offense.

[hex0]

You could always saw screw the paladin and use barbarian and champion of gwynharwyf instead (which also gets divine grace). You would get pounce too.

[Hirax]

You could always saw screw the paladin and use barbarian and champion of gwynharwyf instead (which also gets divine grace). You would get pounce too.

I'll second.

[hex0]

I'll second.

Barbarian 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 3/Champion of G. 2/Incantatrix 9

Looks better to me! Pounce is amazing...

Only 8th level spells though...

unless you squeezed some prcs that boosted spellcasting before spellsword and used barbarian 1.

[Hirax]

...used barbarian 1.

I deleted that from my post because I didn't think it was worth mentioning, but I'm not a big fan of bar2, I would rarely ever suggest it. Paladin3 is suspect in the original build, it doesn't add anything, though I suspect BAB was the reason. If for some reason it could be convenient to do bar1/gwen2 I'd support that as a way better option, but I can see that's going to make for some awkwardness, as far as entry.

[herrhauptmann]

Barbarian 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 3/Champion of G. 2/Incantatrix 9

Looks better to me! Pounce is amazing...

Only 8th level spells though...

unless you squeezed some prcs that boosted spellcasting before spellsword and used barbarian 1.

Would 'uncanny dodge' be worth that? It definitely would if the character could get improved uncanny dodge, especially if that keys off of total HD, rather a class/PrC which was dipped for only a level or two. But otherwise...
If you wanted the Aura of Grace, I think Paladin2 (or the alternates) would still have been more effective than ChampGw2. And it wouldn't require 2 feats either. Barb1/Pal Freedom2 vs Barb2/ChampGw2.

[hex0]

Would 'uncanny dodge' be worth that? It definitely would if the character could get improved uncanny dodge, especially if that keys off of total HD, rather a class/PrC which was dipped for only a level or two. But otherwise...
If you wanted the Aura of Grace, I think Paladin2 (or the alternates) would still have been more effective than ChampGw2. And it wouldn't require 2 feats either. Barb1/Pal Freedom2 vs Barb2/ChampGw2.

Barb 1/ChampGw 2 gets more skills, hit die, and spells than Barb 1/Pal Freedom 2. After maxing out sorcerer casting it makes a better option to continue that any Paladin as well.

Edit: I noticed the summon a whale to drop in the first post. Could you summon one on a Tenser's Disk and then end the duration of the disk? :smallamused:

[herrhauptmann]

Ahh, skill points, gotchya.

What's the weight limit on a floating disc? I think it's only 100 pounds per caster level...

edit:
By 20th level, I don't think 1d12+2d10 is all that much worse than 3d12 HP.
Also, since the casting is wisdom based for both the paladin and Champ Gw, the divine casting really won't matter. Not when the OP only has a 10 wisdom. (Though the either of the additional spell lists will come in handy for wand/scroll usage)

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Summoning a whale into something other then a big body of water, like it's supposed to be done, is both silly and not RAW.

[Golden Ladybug]

Of course, you wiped the floor with me with spells. I don't think you made a single attack :P

Here's what I recommend:
1) Get Freedom of Movement. Had my first attack hit, I would have used Snatch to initiate a grapple and you would have been dead in a round or two.
2) I'm not sure if you have more elemental options, but you did most of your damage with Orbs of Cold. If I had remembered that White Dragons get a cone attack as well and shifted into that instead, would you have had a direct damage method of hitting me?

I need to post one of these threads too, and we need to have a rematch...

Oh yeah, we definitely need to have a Rematch. Thats a thing that needs to happen.

Heart of Water is basically Freedom of Movement lite; It has a duration of Hours (I forgot to have it precast in our bout) and gives a swim speed equal to my land speed, water breathing, a buff to Escape Artist checks, and can be discharged for Freedom of Movement for rounds/level

My elemental coverage is Lesser Orb of Acid, Combust, Orb of Cold, Wings of Flurry (Force) and Disintergrate (untyped). I'm missing Sonic and Electricity, but the coverage is there. Had you shifted into White Dragon form, I'd have flown in (wings of cover if you AoO) and hit you with a Twinned Maximised Empowered Combust as a swift action, and then put my hands back on my sword (free action) and then hit you with it, Dropping Moment of Prescience to make the attack hit, and releasing the Stored Maximised Combust (248-320 Fire damage). So unless something that is immune to everything by Sonic and Electricity shows up....


Sorcerer 5/(spellcasting boosting prc) 1/Incantatrix 8/Sacred Exorcist 1/Pious Templar 1/Prestige Paladin 2/Abjurant Champion 3

Pious Templar 1/Prestige Paladin 2 is strictly better than Paladin 3. You get Mettle and essentially cast as a 6th level Paladin, which isn't that great at epic level, but still. Mettle is nice when you have Disintigrates flying around.

That'd be pretty cool, but it conflicts with the fluff of the character. That's pretty much the main reason I'm taking Paladin 3, and I'm trying to find a balance between that and UNLIMITED POWAH


Metamagic School Focus (CMg) does reduce metamagic below +1, but it has Spell Focus as a prerequisite and it works only for one chosen school of magic.

Yeah, that's true, but its feat intensive and, well, I don't have an obvious focus in the Schools of Magic I'm using...Except for lack of Necromancy. Arcane Thesis is an Option of reducing it to below +1 as well, but only for one spell. Shame really.


1.Abjurant Champion provides among the best armor/shield boni in the game and even into epic progressions are hard to beat. Your shield spell provides the AC bonus of a +5 tower shield or epic +7 heavy shield, for *FREE*. Equipping yourself with that epic heavy shield, however, would bet at least a +9 shield, before other modifications since you're going to want Animated to keep your hands free. Imho, 810k is too much to be worth it replacing a shield spell with an actual shield. On the armor side, you're casting greater luminous armor, providing yourself with +13 armor, effectively +17 against sighted melee, which is on par with +5 full plate, or +8 breastplate. That's another 640k worth of items you'll likely be spending, cause you're probably not using the full plate. Also note that unlike the gear, the spells have no enhancement bonuses on them, meaning you can then stack magic vestments(from a friendly cleric) for an additional +5. You can then also wear armor which provides more non-AC bonuses than an equally wealthed person while still providing an AC boost comparable to +12(+14 equivalent) heavy shield and +13 breastplate.

2.Travel Devotion + Divine Might makes Sacred Exorcist practically required for a Sorcadin gish.

3.Ascetic Mage + Unarmed Swordsage provides you with Cha to AC without giving up your armor slot(your shield slot goes bye-bye, though, making Abjurant Champ's shield spell even tastier than described above).

I'll post more when I can actually look up what Tattoo'ed monk gives with those tattoos.

Yeah, Abjurant Champion looks pretty damn appealing. Even if I just use the Shield, it's signifigantly better than anything else I'd be able to carry on my shield arm. But, I can't take Greater Luminous Armor as a Sorcerer, and since Mage Armor is a "DM's decision if it works with Abjurant Champion", I think I'll just pay out the GP for a Mithral Chainshirt. If we have a Cleric on the team, I'd be happy to use the Vestements Trick. But paying a NPC cleric to cast it every day would just be annoying.

I don't think I need Travel Devotion that much, really (but the reason could be completely wrong, this is just something my normal DM insists to be the rules, and I've had no reason to doubt him). Getting on and off a mount is a free action, apparently, so I could just fly my Phantom Steed to the problem, Wings of Cover their AoO, hop off and Full Attack them.

That's actually probably wrong. Travel Devotion + Divine Might it is. If I can fit it all in.

I don't actually own Tome of Battle, so Swordsage is slightly off-limits to me. Could work though.

Icxnay on the Attooedt Onkmay...nah, don't worry about it. Its not really worth it; I was taking levels in it under the assumption that it would beef up my Saves along with the Tattoos (Bellflower gives an enhancment bonus equal to my Charisma modifier to any stat, for rounds/Tattooed Monk levels, and can be used once per tattoo I have. Crab gives me DR 2^Tattoo/Magic and Chrysantheum heals me each hour I'm in the sun equal to my Tattooed Monk Levels). Its not really worth it without those bonuses (although, one day I'm going to have to play a Monk/Tattooed Monk/Something/Something and have tons of fun with it.


Which is a great spell, but do take note that it specifically summons a vertical wall of force, so you can't use it for air-dropping summon spells.

I may have missed something, but Sorcerer 5 doesn't get you third level spells, generally. You need Sorcerer 6 for that.

Well, what if I made multiple interconnecting Walls of Force...

Spellsword and Sorc 5 gives 6th level spells :smallwink:


**Yup, once epic, the BAB of your various classes and PrC doesn't matter, since all epic characters get an epic attack bonus that doesn't provide extra attacks.

So you'll be stuck with just 3 attacks per round until you start throwing out things like Haste.
Please see Adding a Second Class. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm#addingaSecondClass")


**Also, you've only got 8th level spells listed in your level 20 build. Unless you can reach 9th level spells by 20th level, you'll never get them. Nor will you be able to take improved spell capacity and epic casting.

**Spell list. I've got a small list of spells that Shneekey the Lost helped me out with for a gish of my own.

1st Level Spells:
Grease (PHB)
Mage Armor (PHB)
Nerveskitter (SC)
Shield (PHB)
Fist of Stone (CArc)

2nd Level Spells:
Mirror Image (PHB)
Wraithstrike (SC)
Luminous Armor (BoED) Great spell, but need to be a preparation caster.

3rd Level Spells:
Haste (PHB)
Dispel Magic (PHB)

4th Level Spells:
Dimension Door (PHB)
Polymorph (PHB)
Greater Luminous Armor Great spell, but need to be a preparation caster.

5th Level Spells:
Acid Sheath (SC)
Baleful Polymorph(PHB)
Teleport (PHB)

6th Level Spells:
Disintegrate (PHB)
Contingency (PHB)
Greater Dispel Magic (SC)


7th Level Spells:
Energy Absorption (SC)
Force Cage (PHB)
Limited Wish (PHB)
Prismatic Spray (PHB)
Reverse Gravity (PHB)


8th Level Spells:
Mind Blank (PHB)
Polymorph Any Object (PHB)

9th Level Spells:
Time Stop (PHB)
Gate (PHB)
Shapechange (PHB)
Wish (PHB)

A lot of the gish handbooks I checked, it seemed like the writer just took their favorite spells out of the God Wizard lists. Which is fine, if a lower CL won't cripple your use of spells (generally it does for a God wizard).

**Item selection:
Have you put any thought into that?
A 'smoking' weapon would be some nice free miss chances. But cloaks of displacement will be affordable at your level.
At epic levels, dealing damage is pretty much meaningless. So as cool as your 9d6 fists might be, they're not too helpful. Sudden Stunning (DMG2) weapons will be nice, as are any other options you have to hand out status effects to your enemies. Shaken/Held/Stunned/Cursed/Negative Levels/Stat damage, etc.
Blueshine/Durable armor will protect your armor from rust/acid. There's a few things that can destroy them, no save.
Ditto for Everbright weapons.
MiC says you can enchant bracers of armor like they're magical armor. So Soulfire (BoED) bracers will stop most death effects and other negative energy issues. (That's if you go monk and can't wear normal armor, even padded)

Oh well, can't do much about that. If I don't get an extra attack, I don't get an extra attack. As gish's go, I'm building this with direct Melee combat as a secondary concern. If I can do the job better by zooming around on my jet-horse and dropping spells on people than if I were hitting them with my Sword, then so be it. I do get level 9 spells in this build, I just haven't gotten around to updating the OP to reflect that. I've only just woken up (taking about an hour to reply to all these posts of course)

I'll have a look at your Spell List and see if I can incorporate some elements into my build, but some of that I'm just not going to touch. I know how aggravating it can be for a DM if one of the players Gates in the Gods themselves to deal with their Campaign.

Oh, Large Monk Progression + Colossal+++ fists only deals 9d6? Well, thats disapointing. Still, a flurry dealing 54d6+54d4+120 aint bad.

I had put some thought into Item Selection, but much of its rendered moot by the discussion in this thread. My weapons are a +5 Spell-storing Longsword, holding a Maximised Combust and a +5 Seeking Composite (+3) Longbow. My Armor was a +5 Mithral Chain Shirt of Invulnerability and a +5 Mithral Buckler (gone now). I also had a fair bit of boosting stuff. And many, many Wands of CLW.

I'll look into the Bracers of Armor, because enchanting them could be cool. I think I might stick with the chainshirt though; much cheaper and provides slightly higher AC.


Also, your Bellflower Tattoo/bonus spells trick. You only get bonus spells when you refresh your spells/day (like right after you sleep), so temp increases to Cha won't make any difference.

It seems like you'd be better served by a more pure caster in this regard. You don't really seem like much of a gish, no offense.

Ah well, thats okay. I could always have used it to temporarily give myself an extra 300HP. Probably won't take it though; I'll save Tattooed Monk shenanigans for some other time.

I'm not really that much of a Gish :smallredface: I originally just wanted to play a Sorcadin. Becoming Gish-like was an accident.


Barbarian/Champion of Gwynharwyf

Probably not. I'd probably just change the Practical Metamagic into Easy Metamagic, take a +2 Spell Slot Twin Spell and switch from Silverbrow Human to Catfolk if I wanted Pounce, and I don't want to refluff my Character to be a Barbarian. Or, for that matter, a Catfolk. Next time.


Summoning a whale into something other then a big body of water, like it's supposed to be done, is both silly and not RAW.

Don't ruin our fun. Or I'll drop a Celestial Balleen Whale on you :smalltongue:

In other news, I'll look into Tenser's, see if thats the answer to my Whale Drop Connundrum. Maybe I cast Create Water really high up, and then Summon a Whale inside that...

The OP will be updated when I have time to do so.

Also, rather than taking levels in a PrC, how about taking two levels of Paladin to begin with, getting a Cleric to cast atonement and then taking Paladin 3 and 4 to get Turn Undead and Divine Might Shenanigans? Would also let me get into Divine Casting, however minor that may be. Would mean the same Build at this stage, just with Paladin 3 at the end rather than the begining.

[Keld Denar]

Um...Sorcadin IS a gish...the build is designed to gish. If you don't want to gish, you are better off not losing CLs.

[herrhauptmann]

If you want to go more castery, that's fine. But as stated by Keld Denar...


**Build
-Umm, I misread part of your post about colossal++++ flurry and channeling spells into your hands... I don't know how much damage you'd be dealing.
-How exactly are you getting your fists that big though? I've gotten characters with weapons that deal damage at Colossal+1 or +2 by level 12 or 14, but that took a bit of effort, and it wasn't with a human (or silverbrow) character either. (Psi expansion, strongarm bracers, golden weapon will net 4 increases). Granted, I don't recognize all of your spells, so it might be in one of those.

If you like the Phantom Steed that much, there's a PrC called "Phantom Knight" from Eberron that you might like.

Suel arcanamach could be interesting as well. Makes your spells very hard to dispel, useful since you'll be suffering in your CL anyway (low CL is easier to dispel).

**Items
Don't go up to a +5 weapon unless you've got absolutely nothing to spend your money on. At best, go to +3 for the weapon crystals from MiC. Ditto with your armor. That's an extra +2 of enchantments you put on your weapons/armor.
-I'll reiterate 'Soulfire.' It's a premo defensive enchantment for a reason (essentially, it's the spell Deathward, always active).
-Get a +1 mithral buckler. Who cares about the AC bonus it gives you, especially since as an Abj Champ, you'll be casting shield for more AC anyway. But the buckler will carry a bunch of other neat little defensive enchantments that you'll love.
-Ditch the wands of CLW, get wands of Lesser Vigor. You won't be using CLW in a fight anyway, so vigor will get you a lot more healing per charge, for the same cost. (Unless you're absolutely tied to the idea of avoiding a UMD failure)

**Spells:
-You could try to 'find' a copy of mage armor that is abjuration instead of conjuration. Most players of a wizard Abj Champ research that same spell. Then just add it to your spells known instead of the regular mage armor.
- Pathfinder also has one or two spells that could help you out. They're not as nice as luminous armor, but still better than an abjuration mage armor. Ask your DM.

-If you've got Heart of Water, why not take the other Heart of X spells? (I missed it before) You get some nice bonuses for having more than one of those spells active at a time.

more to come I think...

[Golden Ladybug]

Um...Sorcadin IS a gish...the build is designed to gish. If you don't want to gish, you are better off not losing CLs.

I was originally taking it to grab Cha to Saves. And then I thought that taking Spellsword for the ASF reduction would be swell. Then I thought taking Eldritch Knight for extra BAB could be cool. And so on.

Accidental Gish building is the best Gish building. And the most poorly planned Gish building as well, which is why some of the more questionable things are here.

I'm not too attached to 9th level casting when using a Sorcerer (They're slightly too ridiculous for most games I play in) and Practised Spellcaster gets me my Caster Levels back.


If you want to go more castery, that's fine. But as stated by Keld Denar...


**Build
-Umm, I misread part of your post about colossal++++ flurry and channeling spells into your hands... I don't know how much damage you'd be dealing.
-How exactly are you getting your fists that big though? I've gotten characters with weapons that deal damage at Colossal+1 or +2 by level 12 or 14, but that took a bit of effort, and it wasn't with a human (or silverbrow) character either. (Psi expansion, strongarm bracers, golden weapon will net 4 increases). Granted, I don't recognize all of your spells, so it might be in one of those.

If you like the Phantom Steed that much, there's a PrC called "Phantom Knight" from Eberron that you might like.

Suel arcanamach could be interesting as well. Makes your spells very hard to dispel, useful since you'll be suffering in your CL anyway (low CL is easier to dispel).

**Items
Don't go up to a +5 weapon unless you've got absolutely nothing to spend your money on. At best, go to +3 for the weapon crystals from MiC. Ditto with your armor. That's an extra +2 of enchantments you put on your weapons/armor.
-I'll reiterate 'Soulfire.' It's a premo defensive enchantment for a reason (essentially, it's the spell Deathward, always active).
-Get a +1 mithral buckler. Who cares about the AC bonus it gives you, especially since as an Abj Champ, you'll be casting shield for more AC anyway. But the buckler will carry a bunch of other neat little defensive enchantments that you'll love.
-Ditch the wands of CLW, get wands of Lesser Vigor. You won't be using CLW in a fight anyway, so vigor will get you a lot more healing per charge, for the same cost. (Unless you're absolutely tied to the idea of avoiding a UMD failure)

**Spells:
-You could try to 'find' a copy of mage armor that is abjuration instead of conjuration. Most players of a wizard Abj Champ research that same spell. Then just add it to your spells known instead of the regular mage armor.
- Pathfinder also has one or two spells that could help you out. They're not as nice as luminous armor, but still better than an abjuration mage armor. Ask your DM.

-If you've got Heart of Water, why not take the other Heart of X spells? (I missed it before) You get some nice bonuses for having more than one of those spells active at a time.

more to come I think...

Yeah, that one is actually wrong, as I've just realised. Reading restrictions on your spells properly is a good thing. When a spell says "or" it doesn't always mean you get to choose what happens. I'd get my Fists to be Colossal, but thats it.

I've always been interested in Suel Arcanamach (pretty much only because of the illustration in Comp. Arcane) but I've never used it in a build. I might give it a go, but my Caster Level isn't that bad, really. Practised Spellcaster is a safety net for me to lose 4 Caster Levels from Multiclassing before I need to worry. Knight Phantom is hilarious, but Setting specific. We don't know if we're playing in Eberron yet, and its not really that great. Phantom Steed itself is brilliant, though.

To be honest, I had CLW there because I've never actually taken the time to look at what Lesser Vigour does -_-

Its great that I own the Magic Item Compedium...but never use anything from that. I should fix that. So yeah, should probably get to work on fixing that.

I definitely need to look into more varied abilities outside of Core for the Buckler (I was building between 12-4am, and thinking doesn't work out so well that late). Soulfire would be excellent. And if I get caught with my pants down, even 2 AC can help out. I can't keep Shield up all day.

The other Heart of X spells aren't that great, at least in my opinion. Heart of Water gives a lot of great abilities, whereas the others are a bit lackluster. Fortification is always great, of course, but I might just stack that on my Buckler.

I'll see what happens with Abjuration Mage Armor and using Pathfinder Spells. We'll see what happens.

[herrhauptmann]

I know the heart of fire/earth look rather lackluster, but everyone takes them for the stacking effect.

Anyway, I slightly retract my recommendation for Suel Arcanamach. For some reason, I thought it offered a casting progression like sublime chord does. Also neat, but you need Sorc 6/Bard1 to enter.

Good luck.

edit:
Perhaps your melee classes first...
bard >1/ Pal X/ Suel >4/ Sublime Chord Y / Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champ Z
That'll give you spells off the sorc/wiz list from Trans, Abj, Div, and Ill schools.
While you can cast freely in any light armor (like bards), and Suel helps you ignore ASF from shields and heavier armor.
Will take some juggling around for entry requirements since its so odd...
Pal+Bard+Full Bab (maybe Barbarian) gets you into Suel.
A few levels there gets you third level arcane casting (off a limited list, but you're getting most of the best ones save Trans), which opens up Sublime Chord.
Just a level or two in Sublime, that gets you sorc/wiz/bard casting at the Sublime progression.
Now you start going into your various PrC that say +1 Level of existing (Arcane) spellcasting class. And you still get to grab spells from the sorc/wiz/bard lists.

Biggest downside, I don't think you'll hit 9th level spells until level 23 or 24.
Second biggest downside, this would be a real headache to make.

Also, you'd really need the CG Paladin from UA/SRD. (Go bard first for skill points)

[Hirax]

Everything looks a little unfocused. Is there particular concepts you're going for (mechanical or fluff)? I'm also confused about the power level you want, because in the first post I see 10 levels of incanatrix, one of the most crazy powerful prcs, then in your last post you mention not being tied to 9th level spellcasting since it's a little ridiculous? If you're wanting lots of attacks, have you considered 1 level of whirling frenzy barbarian and some swiftblade for higher mobility and extra actions?

[Keld Denar]

If you don't want to burn a bunch of spells known to learn the whole Heart of Captain Planet, just learn Elemental Body. It gives you all the benefits of the Elemental subtype, including 100% fortification, immunity to stunning, and, if you pick Air elemental, a Perfect fly speed = your land speed. Better 1 6th level spell known than 1 2nd, 1 3rd, 1 4th, and 1 5th, IMO.

Alternatively, get a Runestaff of Captain Planet. One would be pretty cheap, and effectively give you all of those as spells known.

[deuxhero]

21) Arcane Strike

You misspelled "epic spell casting".

[Golden Ladybug]

Everything looks a little unfocused. Is there particular concepts you're going for (mechanical or fluff)? I'm also confused about the power level you want, because in the first post I see 10 levels of incanatrix, one of the most crazy powerful prcs, then in your last post you mention not being tied to 9th level spellcasting since it's a little ridiculous? If you're wanting lots of attacks, have you considered 1 level of whirling frenzy barbarian and some swiftblade for higher mobility and extra actions?

Yeah, Its a bit like that isn't it.

The Concept I'm going for fluff-wise is someone raised as a Paladin, and thrown up against a world where everything isn't black and white. Coming close to falling a few times, and finally leaving the Path of the Paladin to embrace her Draconic Heritage, while still trying to find a balance between the values and beliefs of a Paladin and Arcane Powers. This leant itself well to the Accidental Gish-y-ness.

Mechanically, I wanted to build something that works as both a solid Melee Attacker, while still being a powerful Blaster/Utility Caster. I wanted to put my Charisma onto as many modifiers as possible, and I wanted to throw ridiculous amounts of damage around.

Incantatrix is incredibly powerful, one of the best spellcasting PrCs out there. But when I say that 9th level spells are ridiculous, because there are so many inventive ways to break them. Gate, Timestop, Shapechange, Wish and even Meteor Swarm (depending on how the DM interprets how it works. Calling building sized rocks down from the sky? Brilliant! Zykon shooting balls of stone from his hands? Not so much) are just some of the more obvious ones, and they make life incredibly hard for the DM. But theres also the problem in that most of the others aren't really worth taking as a Sorcerer.

Not to say that Incantatrix doesn't make things hard for the DM as well, but if I'm already breaking action economy with Spellsurge and Fusions, might as well make combat even more high powered.


You misspelled "epic spell casting".

I'm kind of opposed to using ES this early in the campaign. Theres a point where Spellcasters stop being okay, and thats pretty close to that point.

I'll take it at level 30; if we get that far, there is nothing I can do with Epic Spellcasting that is overpowered (relatively)

[Hirax]

For your concept I don't think you need actual paladin levels, though if you want to be a more martial sorcerer to reflect paladin training you could always be a battle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer)+stalwart (PHB2) sorcerer. Both variants put together give you the equivalent of d12 hit die and medium BAB with your sorcerer levels, but using one or both of those variants would hurt your spells. Not recommended unless you really want a martial theme.

Anyway, have you considered simply going sorcerer6/swiftblade9/ab champ5/incanatrix10? Ab champ is there mostly there for BAB, make sure you hit that sweet spot of at least 16 BAB before level 20 for better melee combat. To be good at melee, grab a monk's belt, cast greater mighty whallop on yourself, and optionally polymorph into a sun giant (MM2). Or instead of a monk belt you're of course able to just use a bludgeoning weapon. Though I'd look into changing into a dragon for melee if you want to hit that angle more, even if it would be less optimal, some of its natural attacks would benefit from mighty whallop.

Swiftblade would help you break the action economy even more, getting you a whole extra standard action every turn, and it gets you charisma to initiative. Plus a better and undispellable version of blink, so any non-area attack has a 50% miss chance. Alternatively you could simply go sorcerer6/swiftblade10/ab champ5/swiftblade+10, which would net you more epic feats. One way or the other don't forget moment of prescience, so you can always go first. Someone would need to put a lot of resources into initiative to beat you this way.

I also wouldn't bother with armor for the purposes of AC. With that many actions, just cast greater mage armor and shield, for the added benefit of not needing to worry about incorporeal creatures bypassing your armor. You will get time stop after all, plenty of time for buffing when you need it. Get 0% ASF armor and bucklers for useful protective enchantments. It's worth pointing out that in epic levels high AC and saves generally aren't as useful as broad spectrum immunities, so I'd redirect some of your focus there. Don't forget the project image spell, so you can hide behind a prismatic wall/sphere and have your double outside those barriers be the point of origin for spells. If you want to be super defensive, just hold that extra standard action you're getting from swiftblade for counterspelling or teleporting.

[Golden Ladybug]

For your concept I don't think you need actual paladin levels, though if you want to be a more martial sorcerer to reflect paladin training you could always be a battle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer)+stalwart (PHB2) sorcerer. Both variants put together give you the equivalent of d12 hit die and medium BAB with your sorcerer levels, but using one or both of those variants would hurt your spells. Not recommended unless you really want a martial theme.

Anyway, have you considered simply going sorcerer6/swiftblade9/ab champ5/incanatrix10? Ab champ is there mostly there for BAB, make sure you hit that sweet spot of at least 16 BAB before level 20 for better melee combat. To be good at melee, grab a monk's belt, cast greater mighty whallop on yourself, and optionally polymorph into a sun giant (MM2). Or instead of a monk belt you're of course able to just use a bludgeoning weapon. Though I'd look into changing into a dragon for melee if you want to hit that angle more, even if it would be less optimal, some of its natural attacks would benefit from mighty whallop.

Swiftblade would help you break the action economy even more, getting you a whole extra standard action every turn, and it gets you charisma to initiative. Plus a better and undispellable version of blink, so any non-area attack has a 50% miss chance. Alternatively you could simply go sorcerer6/swiftblade10/ab champ5/swiftblade+10, which would net you more epic feats. One way or the other don't forget moment of prescience, so you can always go first. Someone would need to put a lot of resources into initiative to beat you this way.

I also wouldn't bother with armor for the purposes of AC. With that many actions, just cast greater mage armor and shield, for the added benefit of not needing to worry about incorporeal creatures bypassing your armor. You will get time stop after all, plenty of time for buffing when you need it. Get 0% ASF armor and bucklers for useful protective enchantments. It's worth pointing out that in epic levels high AC and saves generally aren't as useful as broad spectrum immunities, so I'd redirect some of your focus there. Don't forget the project image spell, so you can hide behind a prismatic wall/sphere and have your double outside those barriers be the point of origin for spells. If you want to be super defensive, just hold that extra standard action you're getting from swiftblade for counterspelling or teleporting.

:smalleek:

That is quite amazing. And Brilliant.

I'm not sure whether or not to use that. I might have it as an alternate Build, depending on how well my current, Spell-Focused build goes.

hmm, what about this...

Paladin 2/Sorc 5/Spellsword 1/Swiftblade 8/Abjurant Champion 4

BAB 17/12/7/2, Casts as a 15th level Sorcerer, and gets sundry goodies from all that Class Stacking. Take Improved Feint somewhere, and Bluff with the Free Move Action from Swiftblade to make enemies flatfooted, use Wraithstrike or Brilliant Energy if swift actions conflict with Full-Attacks (I have no idea), and hit an enemy many, many times with a 6d8 Greatclub.

At 21, I'd take Swiftbalde 9, get Moment of Prescience, and become invincible

So yeah, maybe I'll do that.

[Keld Denar]

You still have a superfluous sorcerer level in there. You can iron that out by simply going:

Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/AbjChamp1/Swiftblade8/AbjChamp+4

Sorcerer5 is completely devoid of anything meaningful. No saves, no BAB, nothing, and you don't even need it if you build like above. The above build ends up with a non-epic BAB of 18/20, which nets you your 4th iterative. Take those last 2 Swiftblade levels after 20 to get the awesome funky Time Stop ability, and you're sitting in really good shape.

[Golden Ladybug]

You still have a superfluous sorcerer level in there. You can iron that out by simply going:

Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/AbjChamp1/Swiftblade8/AbjChamp+4

Sorcerer5 is completely devoid of anything meaningful. No saves, no BAB, nothing, and you don't even need it if you build like above. The above build ends up with a non-epic BAB of 18/20, which nets you your 4th iterative. Take those last 2 Swiftblade levels after 20 to get the awesome funky Time Stop ability, and you're sitting in really good shape.

Hmm...I really need to not be looking at 4 different Prestige Classes at once when I'm building a character. Its just getting embarrasing, really. I thought Abjurant Champ needed 3rd Level Arcane Casting :smallredface:

So yes, that is the thing that happens. Now, I just run a few test games with this build or the other build against Babale and Gotterdamerung at some point, and see which performs better. Will it be Swiftblade-Action Efficiency or Incantatrix Metamagic?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Sorcerers still have their "I make action economy cry" abilities in the form of spells such as celerity, arcane fusion, arcane spellsurger, time stop, etc, so even an incantatrix sorc will be able to play with the time flow.

If you pump your spellcraft and abuse the ability that less you apply metamagic to all ready casted spells I would say that Incantatrix would be stronger than the Swiftblade. In either case I am not saying a swiftblade is weak or a bad option.

[Keld Denar]

With Arcane Spellsurge up, I'd consider taking Residual Magic from Complete Mage. If you are really gonna be pumping out spells to do the bulk of your work, Residual Magic gets really fun. ESPECIALLY when you have extra actions from Swiftblade.

Round 1
Standard1: Cast Arcane Spellsurge
Standard2: Cast Metamagic'd Spell A
Swift: Cast Spell B

Round 2
Swift: Cast Spell A, get free Metamagic from round 1
Standard1: Use Wand/Scepter of Spell A, get free CL, DC, Metamagic
Standard2: Cast Metamagic'd Spell C

Round 3
Swift: Cast Spell C, get free Metamagic from round 2
Standard1: Use a Wand/Scepter of Spell C, get free CL, DC, Metamagic
Standard2: Cast Metamagic'd Spell D

Round 4
Repeat Round 3 for Spell D, finish with Metamagic'd Spell E

etc
If you use something like an Orb of Fire, you'll be putting out 3 spells worth of orbs per round, all cast at maximum CL, DC, and with full maximal metamagic applied. This costs you 1 spell slot of whatever your total adjustment comes out to, one slot of whatever the base spell is, and one charge on your spell trigger item. Its about efficiency, extending the usefulness of lower level slots to a VERY high degree.

[herrhauptmann]

etc
If you use something like an Orb of Fire, you'll be putting out 3 spells worth of orbs per round, all cast at maximum CL, DC, and with full maximal metamagic applied. This costs you 1 spell slot of whatever your total adjustment comes out to, one slot of whatever the base spell is, and one charge on your spell trigger item. Its about efficiency, extending the usefulness of lower level slots to a VERY high degree.

Isn't that a big part of the mailman sorcerer build?

[Dusk Eclipse]

I don't know about using Residual Metamagic, AFAIK it only uses ridicusly meta-magiked Orbs of fire inside an Arcane an Arcane fussion (with an arcane spellsurge for the finisher)

[Snowbluff]

If I recall correctly, Easy, Practical, and Incantatrix are all incapable of reducing a metamagic below +1. So no matter which order of operations school you follow, you don't need Easy Maximize. Paladin 3 isn't really necessary, and you could use your extra feat slot to take Combat Casting and qualify for Abjurant Champion. So you would look more like:

Pally 2/Sorc 4/Spellsword 1/Abj Champ 4/Incantatrix 10 (Those 5 extra sorc levels looked like a typo)

And you'd have a BaB of +13 along with 19th level casting.

As for spells, you definitely want Shivering Touch (Frostburn) in this build. One problem with Greater Dim Door is you can't attack after using that move action (See Dimension Door itself), which is why I'm partial to jamming Dimension Hop into Arcane Fusions instead. Also, this being a gish I think you want Wraithstrike as well, and if you're worried about action efficiency it can jam into Fusions pretty easily too. If you don't have specific gear for vision, you also need See Invis (Glitterdust doesn't cut it alone, though it's useful) or more probably True Seeing at that level.

Actually, Incant can reduce MM cost below one, and so can Arcane Thesis. That's why they are considered so powerful.

[tyckspoon]

Actually, Incant can reduce MM cost below one, and so can Arcane Thesis. That's why they are considered so powerful.

Incantatrix is floored at +1; it's in a parenthesis right in the middle of the level 10 ability. It's pretty obvious. Incantatrix is powerful because it has abilities that replace metamagic costs altogether, and because that level 10 ability is so broadly applied- most other metamagic reducers only work on a specific feat, or are sharply limited in uses/day (Metamagic School Focus is the other notable one that doesn't have limiting rules, but it's only 3/day.)

Re: Free-action mount/dismount:
It's an application of the Ride skill, DC 20 check. It's real, but you'll need to invest a bit in your Ride skill to do it with certainty.

[hex0]

Also, rather than taking levels in a PrC, how about taking two levels of Paladin to begin with, getting a Cleric to cast atonement and then taking Paladin 3 and 4 to get Turn Undead and Divine Might Shenanigans? Would also let me get into Divine Casting, however minor that may be. Would mean the same Build at this stage, just with Paladin 3 at the end rather than the begining.

You could also do Cleric/Prestige Paladin.