[3.5/PF] Homebrew Balance - Harrowed

[BlueInc]

I'm going to be DMing a PF game on the GitP boards soon, and a player rolled up a Harrowed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188148). My gut reactions is "you rolled a character using a homebrew class when the DM specifically said no homebrew or 3.5 material without permission? Nope." However, I've seen a lot of good homebrew on these boards, and I don't want to knee-jerk ban anything without giving it an honest look.

Looking over it, it doesn't seem overpowered; I just think they could get the same character concept across as a Witch, Oracle, Sorcerer, Druid...or really anything else.

1). Looking over it, is there anything that stands out as a problem? I'm worried that the Will saves will screw over the party.

2). Has anyone played one of these or DMed for someone who did? How did it turn out?

3). How well do you think this class will work in a PF setting? It mostly looks like it just needs its skills converted.

Thanks in advance for your responses.

[BlueInc]

Well, in case anyone was wondering, the player was more planning on playing it for natural attacks and wings, both of which are readily available elsewhere. I'd still like to hear if anyone has actually used this class and how it went.

[Bushidough]

Don't know if my opinion counts, but as the game is supposed to be a learning experience for the rest of us, personally I'd rather he didn't use a homebrew class.

[Larpus]

Well, I just glazed over it, but overall the class seems ok and balanced.

I'd possibly nerf the True Seeing thing a small bit, not really sure how much it affects adventuring at that level, but it seemed to bother me a tad big, so maybe I'd consider changing it to the Harrowed can tell there is an elemental/outsider near (60ft or so) and possibly its general kind ("it's some geenie", "it's a fire elemental" and so on), but cannot pinpoint its location without spending a standard or so action with a Perception/Survival check.

[BlueInc]

Don't know if my opinion counts, but as the game is supposed to be a learning experience for the rest of us, personally I'd rather he didn't use a homebrew class.

That's the way I'm feeling; if he's willing to play a barbarian or paladin, then no harm done.

I do like to open up as many options as possible for my players, though.

[Tyndmyr]

I feel like Hellbred better captures this concept in the form of a race. The idea that you have a monster in you...but the monsters gets more powerful as you level...is a bit hard to justify, and they really didn't try.

DR = class level is generally a bit strong. It further encourages 2 handed builds, and devalues things like twf, master thrower builds, etc. It's generally hard to get for a reason.

The loss of control could occasionally be pretty disruptive to things, too.

The class as a whole isn't terrible, but I'd probably reflexively say no as well if I'd specified no homebrew without prior approval. Natural attacks ARE quite doable in core, and there's no particular reason you couldn't capture this concept in something else.

[BlueInc]

I feel like Hellbred better captures this concept in the form of a race. The idea that you have a monster in you...but the monsters gets more powerful as you level...is a bit hard to justify, and they really didn't try.

DR = class level is generally a bit strong. It further encourages 2 handed builds, and devalues things like twf, master thrower builds, etc. It's generally hard to get for a reason.

The loss of control could occasionally be pretty disruptive to things, too.

The class as a whole isn't terrible, but I'd probably reflexively say no as well if I'd specified no homebrew without prior approval. Natural attacks ARE quite doable in core, and there's no particular reason you couldn't capture this concept in something else.

What's Hellbred from? Fiendish Codex II? Maybe I could open up some of its features in the form of feats to a Tiefling.

[Frosty]

What's Hellbred from? Fiendish Codex II? Maybe I could open up some of its features in the form of feats to a Tiefling.
Remember that Hellbred is a (balanced) LA +0 race. Having to spend feats to get Hellbred features might be too big of a tax especially since the tiefling already has LA +1.

[subject42]

Remember that Hellbred is a (balanced) LA +0 race. Having to spend feats to get Hellbred features might be too big of a tax especially since the tiefling already has LA +1.

Pathfinder Tieflings (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/tiefling) replace their first hit die with a class level, so in 3.5 parlance they're LA 0.

[Tyndmyr]

Remember that Hellbred is a (balanced) LA +0 race. Having to spend feats to get Hellbred features might be too big of a tax especially since the tiefling already has LA +1.

This. It's a race, which makes a lot of sense given it's origins. It also works just fine as is.

I don't know that a feat progression is a good choice for it. Bloodlines might work thematically, but I sort of dislike bloodlines in practice.

[SamBurke]

Remember that Hellbred is a (balanced) LA +0 race. Having to spend feats to get Hellbred features might be too big of a tax especially since the tiefling already has LA +1.

Not in PF. No LA! (Though it was nerved).

Also, I understand, Blue. Sorry: I thought by showing you a sheet, you could get a better feel for balance, etc. I'll work something else out!

[Frosty]

Also, Hellbred abilities are mostly in the form of Bonus Feats (if Body Aspect) or enhanced ability to see in Darkness (spirit aspect).

Spending feats to get bonus feats doesn't make sense to me. I guess spending one feat to be able to see in any darkness in any range might be fine. I gotta go look up what other goodies Hellbreds get.

[Cieyrin]

If you can handle a Warlock, you can handle a Harrowed, as basically the Harrowed comes off as a specialized Warlock. Also note that Gareth is in the process of another iteration of refining and rebalancing the class, so if you have concerns about it, you should bring it to his attention so it might possibly make the next release, whenever that comes out. As of the current version, I'd say it's solidly T4.

[BlueInc]

If you can handle a Warlock, you can handle a Harrowed, as basically the Harrowed comes off as a specialized Warlock. Also note that Gareth is in the process of another iteration of refining and rebalancing the class, so if you have concerns about it, you should bring it to his attention so it might possibly make the next release, whenever that comes out. As of the current version, I'd say it's solidly T4.

That's what they reminded me of most :P Turns out the player was mostly interested in getting natural attacks and wings, and there's plenty of ways to do that.

When I mentioned getting Hellbred racials as feats, I didn't remember the race at all. Looking over it, I think the biggest problem would be Hellbred being too weak for Pathfinder, if anything.

[Tyndmyr]

When I mentioned getting Hellbred racials as feats, I didn't remember the race at all. Looking over it, I think the biggest problem would be Hellbred being too weak for Pathfinder, if anything.

The good news is, +2 to a stat pretty much fixes that up.

It's the easy 3.5 -> PF race conversion.

[Cieyrin]

The good news is, +2 to a stat pretty much fixes that up.

It's the easy 3.5 -> PF race conversion.

I take it that'd be replacing the ability adjustment for choosing your Infernal Aspect, right, since those provide a choice of stat boost? If we want to stick with that particular aspect of the Hellbred, just attach an extra ability boost and it should balance, I think. Body would pick up a Wis boost, Mind a Dex boost, if I were to choose.

[Lord_Gareth]

Creator of the class here, available to answer your questions and clear up misconceptions!


I feel like Hellbred better captures this concept in the form of a race. The idea that you have a monster in you...but the monsters gets more powerful as you level...is a bit hard to justify, and they really didn't try.

Ah, you misunderstand. The monster is the same incomprehensible plane-devouring abomination at level 1 that it is at level 50. The Harrowed's increasing power represents greater facility in tapping into its power without being obliterated.


DR = class level is generally a bit strong. It further encourages 2 handed builds, and devalues things like twf, master thrower builds, etc. It's generally hard to get for a reason.

Are you talking about Tenebrous Mantle here? Because Tenebrous Mantle only works against ranged attacks, effectively making it Protection from Arrows with some benefits. The other damage reducer they get (Bestial Resilience) is against energy damage.


The loss of control could occasionally be pretty disruptive to things, too.

It can be, but it doesn't have to be. I'll include a sidebar in the next draft with ideas on how the Monster Within can manifest its desires without necessarily being a griefing jerk. Ultimately, this feature is very much dependent on the player's relationship with both the group and the DM, as well as how the player chooses to characterize the Beast Within.


The class as a whole isn't terrible, but I'd probably reflexively say no as well if I'd specified no homebrew without prior approval. Natural attacks ARE quite doable in core, and there's no particular reason you couldn't capture this concept in something else.

There certainly is plenty of ways to get natural attacks, but the Harrowed is a pretty good fit for players looking for the 'mutated horror' angle rather than the, 'I am a bear' angle. That being said, I neither specifically endorse nor dissuade its use for this campaign - I'm just here to answer questions.

As Cieyrin mentioned, the Harrowed is currently in the midst of some major overhauls, especially to power balance on certain abilities, in an effort to nerf some of the more broken ones and provide enough options to bring them up to tier 3 territory. If you've got any ideas or criticisms, please, post them in the thread. I wanna hear 'em!

[subject42]

Are you talking about Tenebrous Mantle here? Because Tenebrous Mantle only works against ranged attacks, effectively making it Protection from Arrows with some benefits. The other damage reducer they get (Bestial Resilience) is against energy damage.

The pure DR effect isn't too bad. You can get nonmagical DR 3/- against arrows in Pathfinder with a 100gp investment in light armor (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/equipment---final/armor/quilted-cloth).

[Cieyrin]

The pure DR effect isn't too bad. You can get nonmagical DR 3/- against arrows in Pathfinder with a 100gp investment in light armor (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/equipment---final/armor/quilted-cloth).

In exchange for not being able to wear armor that will actually let you not get hit. Not a good trade in my book.

[ericgrau]

It doesn't seem to be a simple class at first glance, making balance difficult to easily gauge. Seems risky at the least.

[NineThePuma]

On one of the later pages, Kellus basically goes in and rips the whole thing apart.

Perhaps the Totemist would be a better option?

[Lord_Gareth]

On one of the later pages, Kellus basically goes in and rips the whole thing apart.

Hence the incoming re-write.

[NineThePuma]

Hence the incoming re-write.

That was as advisory to the DM. It's a brutal analysis of the class that explains it's power level pretty well, IMO. No offense, Gareth.

[Retech]

I think the main thing with homebrew is that it can't end up seeming overpowered, or the GM will think, "badly thought out homebrew."

While if the same happened to a core class, they would probably think "darn Wizards."

[Tyndmyr]

Creator of the class here, available to answer your questions and clear up misconceptions!

Ah, you misunderstand. The monster is the same incomprehensible plane-devouring abomination at level 1 that it is at level 50. The Harrowed's increasing power represents greater facility in tapping into its power without being obliterated.

*shrug* I don't see the whole obliteration angle as a thing here. You just lose control.


Are you talking about Tenebrous Mantle here? Because Tenebrous Mantle only works against ranged attacks, effectively making it Protection from Arrows with some benefits. The other damage reducer they get (Bestial Resilience) is against energy damage.

That makes it worse...ranged typically relies on a number of attacks to get decent damage.

Note that I'm not saying that the ability is straight up too good from the Harrowed's point of view...it's not. It's that it makes weak things in the game weaker, while not affecting strong things. It reduces systemic balance.

I don't think the class as a whole is broken or terrible, but I don't know that it's terribly appropriate for the situation.

[subject42]

In exchange for not being able to wear armor that will actually let you not get hit. Not a good trade in my book.

If you're a high-dex character that's only using armor as a special quality platform, then relying on bracers of armor and other qualities for AC, I'd say it has certain charms.

[Cieyrin]

If you're a high-dex character that's only using armor as a special quality platform, then relying on bracers of armor and other qualities for AC, I'd say it has certain charms.

True but by the time you're seriously pushing that Max Dex, the DR isn't terribly relevant. To each their own, I suppose. Whatever floats your boat.

[Sengachi]

I'm currently playing a Harrowed in a pathfinder campaign. It works just fine, even without any alterations. I'm not saying it's as streamlined as a core class, but I enjoy it and no one has any issues with it. This is coming from a group that goes almost all core BTW.