What are epic levels, anyway?

[shadow_archmagi]

What makes them special, and different from normal people levels? How does gameplay change between 20 and 21?

I realize that there are epic-only feats, but I'm still not too clear on what changes. Is it still D&D, more or less?

[RecklessAbaddon]

class features become bonus feats. Monk's get 1 whole bonus feat every 5 levels! Wizards get them every 3 too, because wizards are just sooooo horrible they needed that adjustment.

Also epic BAB and Saves are pretty much the same thing as before, just with an extra name on it.

Some feats are cool, but you're not likely to get many epic feats just because at what level do you really think a game is going to get too. (you can burn a feat to get +1 to any stat, I don't like it but someone last night mentioned it because we hit 21.

[edit] Also expect more "Noun of Noun characters (demon prince of undead, etc...).

[Silva Stormrage]

Well bab changes slightly, you gain "Epic BAB" which increases every 2 levels by 1. This epic bab adds to your Attack bonus but not how many attacks you get.

Saves get a similar treatment.

Feats are incredibly important as well. Epic spell casting being the best feat in existence and is incredibly broken. All classes when progressing in their epic progression gain bonus feats and extra uses of their class features.

Here is a thread about epic level combat too
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210665

[Talentless]

class features become bonus feats. Monk's get 1 whole bonus feat every 5 levels! Wizards get them every 3 too, because wizards are just sooooo horrible they needed that adjustment.

Also epic BAB and Saves are pretty much the same thing as before, just with an extra name on it.

Some feats are cool, but you're not likely to get many epic feats just because at what level do you really think a game is going to get too. (you can burn a feat to get +1 to any stat, I don't like it but someone last night mentioned it because we hit 21.

[edit] Also expect more "Noun of Noun characters (demon prince of undead, etc...).

Actually, if it weren't for spell casting being so open ended and broken, and a Monk working as intended rather than written(Wis to damage and hit naturally, Flurry like PF and as a standard action, etc.) The monk would be better than a Wizard.

A pure blaster Wizard would lose out to a functional Monk in usefulness.

But again... Save or Dies and Save and suck or Die spells exist. And Monk as written got screwed... so yeah

[Silva Stormrage]

Actually, if it weren't for spell casting being so open ended and broken, and a Monk working as intended rather than written(Wis to damage and hit naturally, Flurry like PF and as a standard action, etc.) The monk would be better than a Wizard.

A pure blaster Wizard would lose out to a functional Monk in usefulness.

But again... Save or Dies and Save and suck or Die spells exist. And Monk as written got screwed... so yeah

Sooo... if the game was completely different then monk would be really strong? :smallconfused: Not sure what you mean by that.

[Mystic Muse]

Sooo... if the game was completely different then monk would be really strong? :smallconfused: Not sure what you mean by that.

I think he means that if the game worked as it was intended, the monk would be really strong.

[Big Fau]

Actually, if it weren't for spell casting being so open ended and broken, and a Monk working as intended rather than written(Wis to damage and hit naturally, Flurry like PF and as a standard action, etc.) The monk would be better than a Wizard.

A pure blaster Wizard would lose out to a functional Monk in usefulness.

But again... Save or Dies and Save and suck or Die spells exist. And Monk as written got screwed... so yeah

The problems with both classes are much more deep-seated than you think. It isn't that SoD/SoL spells exist, it's that spells like Teleport, Dominate Person, Gate, Wish, Scry, and a whole slew of other story-breaking spells exist.

It becomes vastly more apparent when you play a Diviner (banning Evocation or Enchantment) that Wizards are capable of controlling the outcome of the campaign itself, and not just the encounters contained within.

Monks, however, got stuck with Flurry of Misses and Slow Fall.

[Incanur]

A bad idea, that's what they are. :smallfrown: I remain somewhat traumatized from the experience of running epic 3.5 combat.

[Tvtyrant]

I find that all of the mundane epic feats and some of the epic item feats should be allowable in none epic; unlike the epic caster feats they are rarely broken.

[Drelua]

A bad idea, that's what they are. :smallfrown: I remain somewhat traumatized from the experience of running epic 3.5 combat.

I think they were a pretty good idea. Just really badly executed, like so many things in dnd. I would love to play the odd epic campaign if anything were decently balanced, but instead I'm regularly trying to talk my DM out of it, to varying degrees of success. I say I'd rather play a low level campaign in which we're actually reasonably tough, not superheroes that can shrug off a 200 foot fall, and I get level 12. My character once bet another PC 20 platinum he could do just that at level 12, but I digress.

[Incanur]

I think they were a pretty good idea. Just really badly executed, like so many things in dnd.

Touché. :smallredface:

I adored the non-mechanical aspects of the epic campaign I ran. Godlike PCs and cosmic quests make for a thrilling ride. It's just that my brain lacks processing power sufficient to handle combat with so many variables involved.

[Silva Stormrage]

I find that all of the mundane epic feats and some of the epic item feats should be allowable in none epic; unlike the epic caster feats they are rarely broken.

The one that makes a ranged weapons range your LoS might be a tad bit broken for non epic :smallbiggrin: I believe there is something that allows you to fire one shot at every enemy within your attack range sooo.

[Endarire]

Epic levels may be a good idea. Think about it: What can you do in Epic that you can't do pre-Epic besides have the [Epic] qualifier?

Sure, you can't develop [Epic] spells (short of GM finangling), but all your necessities are there. A properly prepared Wiz20 is invincible and a few steps short of the [Deity] qualifier.

[Eldan]

Looking at the rules, Epic is, I'd say, the point the game turns boring. It's the point no class gets new features.

Actually, thinking back, I don't think I've ever taken any class past level 20, or 10 for prestige classes in epic. I'd rather have more new class features than epic feats.

There are a lot of story possibilities. The game intends for you to finally be in the really big league now, to throw down with archfiends and anthropomorphic concepts and forces of creation. Mid-level god-wizards aside, that's quite fascinating. The problem is, the rules built around it are boring.

[Runestar]

I recall reading somewhere on enworld that ELH basically misses the point. Epic gameplay shouldn't be just about bigger numbers, but rather, how you deal with your newfound power, and the responsibilities that follow. If you read the city of Union, it basically summarises everything that is wrong with epic.

And anyways, the game already falls apart at lv15+, so no big deal there. :smalltongue:

[Wings of Peace]

My main issue with epic is that there is very little you can do in an epic level game that you couldn't do in a 20 cap game by employing some extra optimization.

[GoatBoy]

I've heard a lot about these broken epic spells, but I don't recall ever seeing any, since a lot of the ones in the ELH appear rather tame. Is there a list somewhere, including common game-breaking techniques?

[Wings of Peace]

I've heard a lot about these broken epic spells, but I don't recall ever seeing any, since a lot of the ones in the ELH appear rather tame. Is there a list somewhere, including common game-breaking techniques?

Look at the rules for creating your own epic spells and then reread the section on ways to lower the creation dc.

[Eldan]

Specifically: the problem many people have is that, without mitigation, the costs for developing the spells are much too high. No one wants to spend 800'000 gold and 30'000 Xp on, well, a slightly bigger fireball (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/hellball.htm).

On the other hand, well, there's mitigation. Example:

I'm smarter than you
Seed: Fortify.
Effect: +100 intelligence, permanent.
Base DC: (27+4*99)*5=2115
Mitigation: 125 casters, all contributing a 9th level slot: -2125, final DC 0

See the problem? That's a bit extreme, but with leadership, you can easily get a few hundred wizards helping with low-level slots. You could also chain-gate a few ten thousand solars.

[Jeraa]

Or worse: We're smarter then you. Like the one above, but add the following:

Change from target to area (pick area option below) (+10 DC)
Change area to 20-ft. radius (+2 DC)
Increase area by 100% (multiple times to increase to 100 foot radius) (+20 DC)

Increase casting time to 10 minutes (-20 DC)
Increase casting time by 1 day (-2 DC)

Final DC: 2115+10+2+20=2147. 2147-2125(Casters)-22(increased casting time)=0

Since the cost and XP required to develop the spell is based on the spellcraft DC, a DC of 0 means instant, and free, development. By changing it from a personal to an area spell, all those in the area get the buff. Now you have 126 casters with +100 to their intelligence. (Besides, you needed a reason for that many high level casters to get together for the spell.)

True, it only lasts for 20 hours. Making it permanent is harder. But for every 20 additional hours you want, its just a +2 to the spellcraft DC. And its stupidly easy to boost skills anyway, so getting the DC down to 0 is totally unnecessary (unless you want a free spell).

Or, instead of buffing, just develop a Gate+ spell. Why summon one outsider to do your bidding when you can summon a whole army of Balors or Solars, or whatever your favorite one is. And they are required to obey you. Or increase the DC by a little more, and you don't have to summon Outsiders. Summon a flight of great wyrm dragons to lay waste to your enemies (also all under your control). You can even force a god to appear (though you don't control them... unless you also use the Compel seed in the spell, then you can).