Confused about CR and LA.

[Icestorm245]

Okay, so, while looking at Savage Species, there are levels for you to take as monsters. It's a 15 level class to become a full fledged Mind Flayer, and it makes sense, because they have 7HD and a +8 LA. But the problem I have with it is, it's only a 7CR creature. Does this mean a 15th level player character is a suitable challenge for four 7th level PCs? I understand that a 15th level character has the WBL of a 15th level character, so does that mean that a 7CR Mind Flayer does as well?

[awa]

a regular mind flayer wont really have any wealth by level at all
also a pc mind flayer will have better stats becuase a regular mind flayer took a 10 or 11 in all it's stats.
that said savage species is notoriously bad for determining how much la something is worth.

edit a cr 15 character is considered a cr 15 threat

[Ifni]

The question of "what level party would this creature fit into as a PC" is quite different from "what level party would this creature challenge as an antagonist". For example, the ability to have many mind-controlled minions is very useful to a PC (because they won't count into the party's effective level, as they come from a character's abilities, and they have uses outside combat), but rather pointless for a monster, because as a general rule you would count them separately in the CR of the encounter. At-will abilities are great for a PC because the PC will likely face many encounters in a day, but most monsters will fight exactly one encounter ever, so it doesn't matter for them if their abilities are usable 3x/day or at-will.

The difference between these questions is the reason for the difference between ECL and CR. The mindflayer has at-will mind-control and plane shift abilities, I think that's most of the reason for its level adjustment. That said, the designers seem to have very much erred on the side of "make sure that PCs with big LAs don't overshadow more normal characters", a mindflayer probably will not really pull its weight in a L15 party without some pretty clever play and good equipment choices.

[TroubleBrewing]

Mindflayer Binder FTW.

[HunterOfJello]

1. Savage Species is a bad resource to use for practically anything. (Although it is a really awesome book if you can convince your naive DM to let you use it.)

2. CR and LA have pretty much nothing to do with one another. They might as well exist in separate universes that have completely different laws of mathematics.

[Icestorm245]

1. Savage Species is a bad resource to use for practically anything. (Although it is a really awesome book if you can convince your naive DM to let you use it.)

Well, my DM absolutely loves the book, in fact, he has expressed interest in DMing a monster campaign of sorts. How would one go about subtley abusing it?

[tyckspoon]

Well, my DM absolutely loves the book, in fact, he has expressed interest in DMing a monster campaign of sorts. How would one go about subtley abusing it?

Subtly? You don't. Savage Species stuff tends to swing really far between crap and ridiculous; it's hard to use the really outstanding options in it without being very obvious about how cheesy they are.

[Icestorm245]

Subtly? You don't. Savage Species stuff tends to swing really far between crap and ridiculous; it's hard to use the really outstanding options in it without being very obvious about how cheesy they are.

Ah well, that's too bad. Going back to my original question, however, a properly equipped 15th level Mind Flayer with PC stats would be as good as any other 15h level character with the exception of spellcasters?

[TroubleBrewing]

Well, my DM absolutely loves the book, in fact, he has expressed interest in DMing a monster campaign of sorts. How would one go about subtley abusing it?

As others have said, subtle doesn't compute with SS.

The Winged template is one of a very, very short list of ways to get a non-magical 60ft Perfect maneuverability fly speed by level 3.

The Feral template. If your DM rules that the HD abilities are affected only by RHD, play something with a ton of RHD and a small LA. (Stone Giant works well for this; 14 RHD and +4 LA.)

Anthrobat Druid.

The Half-Ogre template in this book is listed as +1 LA. In RoD, it gets updated to +2. The author of the template has stated that he believes it should be +3 or +4.

Those are my personal favorites.

[Flickerdart]

Ah well, that's too bad. Going back to my original question, however, a properly equipped 15th level Mind Flayer with PC stats would be as good as any other 15h level character with the exception of spellcasters?
No. A properly equipped Mind Flayer with PC stats will swing maybe a 10 on the CR scale, at best, unless you factor in some dominated minions. Generally, any character with full levels in a monster class is going to suck compared to a PC of the same level. Very few monsters (such as Black Ethergaunts) are worth their ECL.

Granted, when it comes to Mind Flayer PCs, once you start taking Illithid Savant levels, the tables will turn so quickly that you'll look like a DJ.

[awa]

i don't think illithiad savant is as good as people make it out to be. you have to find the right creatures to eat. if you don't find just the right victims you either don't get to use your class features or you have to waste them on sub-par abilities. also becuase you are we weak to start off with creatures with good abbilites will probably just kill you when you try and eat them.

[Flickerdart]

Well that's why you go looking for victims, instead of sitting at home whining about not having any victims. Enslave some weak guys, have them help you enslave stronger guys, then eventually work your way up to useful slaves who will bring powerful creatures to you for eating. You're an Illithid, not a pitiful human, so why pretend you're one and do stupid things like "work"?

[navar100]

Ask your DM for a House Rule to have your HD equal your level despite the LA. That is, by the time you are 15th level you have 15d8 hit points just like any other character. Having only 7d8 hit points at 15th level means you die before you even reach that far.

True, a 15th level wizard only has 15d4 hit points which is about the same as 7d8, but you're not a wizard. You're still dead before you reach 15th level.

[awa]

then someone casts dispel magic (or any of the many low level ways to beat a charm spell) and all your ex-enslaved minions kill you.
by the time you can steal a class feature your level 18 and extremely weak for that level.

you get charm monster not dominate so your minions are going to be unlikely to form a giant mob to run around enslaving people for you

[Flickerdart]

then someone casts dispel magic (or any of the many low level ways to beat a charm spell) and all your ex-enslaved minions kill you.
by the time you can steal a class feature your level 18 and extremely weak for that level.

you get charm monster not dominate so your minions are going to be unlikely to form a giant mob to run around enslaving people for you
Um, sure. Someone dispels your Charm (assuming, of course, that they know it's active, and that your guys don't have any other spells on them). Why would your friends turn on you? Were you perhaps treating them poorly, like some sort of idiot? Never ever treat magically compelled minions poorly. It's the first rule of minionmancy.

[awa]

possible becuase you are brain eating monstorsoity forcing them to gang up and capture more powerful pepole so they can be forced against their will to serve you?

[RndmNumGen]

possible becuase you are brain eating monstorsoity forcing them to gang up and capture more powerful pepole so they can be forced against their will to serve you?

Sure, that would be their first impression of you. But once they serve you for a good year or two, and you treat them well for serving you, things change. At the very least most will remain neutral when their charm gets dispelled and wait to see the outcome of the fight. Why? Because it's a whole helluva lot easier to justify serving an evil person for a long time, even if you were magically compelled, when a person justifies their master as having redeeming qualities.

[Xtomjames]

The question of "what level party would this creature fit into as a PC" is quite different from "what level party would this creature challenge as an antagonist". For example, the ability to have many mind-controlled minions is very useful to a PC (because they won't count into the party's effective level, as they come from a character's abilities, and they have uses outside combat), but rather pointless for a monster, because as a general rule you would count them separately in the CR of the encounter. At-will abilities are great for a PC because the PC will likely face many encounters in a day, but most monsters will fight exactly one encounter ever, so it doesn't matter for them if their abilities are usable 3x/day or at-will.

The difference between these questions is the reason for the difference between ECL and CR. The mindflayer has at-will mind-control and plane shift abilities, I think that's most of the reason for its level adjustment. That said, the designers seem to have very much erred on the side of "make sure that PCs with big LAs don't overshadow more normal characters", a mindflayer probably will not really pull its weight in a L15 party without some pretty clever play and good equipment choices.

Uh...what? No, when you have minion (thralled) under a Mind Flayer they raise the total ER (Encounter Rating).

That said LA and HD apply to ECL, not actual level, only LA does.

A level 15 Mind Flayer would have 8 levels as the LA and 7 levels of the main class. The ECL of the creature however would be 8 (la)+7(hd)+7(class levels). The HD gained is part of the LA thus you do not factor it into your class levels.

A mind flayer without class levels is an effective 15th level character, with 8 base levels and 7 hit dice. It's CR reflects this because for an average party of four 7th level characters equate to roughly one 15th level character when combined when measuring total power.

(Of course this is an averaging and is hardly an accurate measure and assumes neither optimization or power house parties.)

If we look at the encounter level however for every Thralled minion a mind flayer has, the EL goes up by 1. EL is calculated by adding the CR of the base creature to the increases from having minion. If the minion are at their max level and have character classes (max level being 2 levels below the level of the mind flayer) the EL increases by 1+Class Level of the thralled minion.

For example the EL of a single Mind Flayer is a CR of 7, with four enthralled without class levels it goes to 11, with enthralled with class levels (max of 6th level) the EL goes to 14 with one minion at 6th level, 21 with two minions, 29 with three minion and 36 with four minion. (Though I will note that a basic mind flayer without class levels or the leadership feat can only have one minion with class levels maxed, most have minion with 1 or 2 class levels). Similarly this applies to CR, the max CR of an enthralled creature for a base mind flayer is 2 less than it's CR. The EL when using non-class level based creatures (like hell hounds) you add the CR of the base creature instead of the 1+class levels, to the total EL.

This all said the CR is actually a better measure of the Level Adjustment for monster classes than is the listed (if any) LA.

It's faster to just calculate the LA for a PC strictly from the CR and ignore the LA or HD that apply to ECL. Base Stats are rolled as per usual and you can look at the given stats of the creature to figure out their ability score bonuses.

For example let's look at the War Troll from MMIII 181. It has a CR of 12 and LA of 6, and 12 HD. Here you can calculate the base LA as just 12 using the CR, if we presume a BASE 10 for all ability scores and a Max roll of 18 for any ability score above 18, then bonuses would be as follows. +13 to STR, +4 to Dex, +11 to Con, -2 to Int, and +3 to Wisdom.

You'd then gain the base creature as described including any feats weapons armor etc. Then you stack the actual class levels on top of this.


Similarly, though, you'll note that as I said before HD applies to ECL rather than actual level. You still find the ability bonuses (negatives as above), but you'll note a difference. If you treat the CR as the LA then you are not held back when people level. Where as following ECL you level slower but you can be at a lower level using the given LA.

Another example is the Vermin Lord. No LA is given and it has 25 hit dice. It's CR is 17.

If you use CR as the LA and ignore the HD, then your character can have three levels before being level 20. You still get your full HD but it no longer affects your level.

Bonuses would be +1 STR, +3 DEX, +4 Con

[Eldariel]

Base creatures have 10s and 11s as their stats. These must be removed to get the bonuses. The correct bonuses for a War Troll are +12 Str, +4 Dex, +10 Con, -2 Int, +2 Wis.

And average party of 7 does not equate to a level 15 character. Also, one CR 7 creature is supposed to be a 50/50 fight for one level 7 character. 4 level 7 characters would be expected to have a close fight against a CR 11 creature. 15 is way out there. The real reason for the discrepancy in CR and ECL is, as stated, the fact that some abilities are more valuable to players than monsters (and they're still overblown). Ifni said everything that needs to be said, to be honest.

[Flickerdart]

Uh...what? No, when you have minion (thralled) under a Mind Flayer they raise the total ER (Encounter Rating).

That said LA and HD apply to ECL, not actual level, only LA does.

A level 15 Mind Flayer would have 8 levels as the LA and 7 levels of the main class. The ECL of the creature however would be 8 (la)+7(hd)+7(class levels). The HD gained is part of the LA thus you do not factor it into your class levels.

A mind flayer without class levels is an effective 15th level character, with 8 base levels and 7 hit dice. It's CR reflects this because for an average party of four 7th level characters equate to roughly one 15th level character when combined when measuring total power.
None of this is correct, even a little.

First of all, creatures gained through an ability (such as summoned monsters or animal companions) don't affect encounter CR, because they're part of the creature.

Second, RHD is not part of LA. They are two completely different things, and don't overlap together in any way.

Third, four 7th level characters have a CR of 11 (7, +2 for doubling, +2 for doubling). 11 is not 15; it is, in fact, quite a bit lower. Even if this were true, one CR7 creature is not a fair fight for a full 7th level party, but rather they are expected to trounce it soundly, expending only 20% of their resources.

[Siosilvar]

That said LA and HD apply to ECL, not actual level, only LA does.

A level 15 Mind Flayer would have 8 levels as the LA and 7 levels of the main class. The ECL of the creature however would be 8 (la)+7(hd)+7(class levels). The HD gained is part of the LA thus you do not factor it into your class levels.

No. Character level and ECL are the same. Both are equal to RHD + LA + class levels.

A Level 7 Mind Flayer has 14 hit dice (7 from RHD and 7 from the class levels) but is treated as a 22nd level character (14 HD + 8 LA) for all purposes - gaining experience, level of party, etc.

Likewise, a level 8 human has 8 hit dice (0 from RHD and 8 from class levels) and is treated as an 8th level character (8 HD + 0 LA) for the same purposes.

Spells like Blasphemy or Holy Word check hit dice. Encounters check ECL. This is why most LA isn't worth being behind levels - you're dropped on HD and don't get enough to make up for the loss.

[gkathellar]

Well that's why you go looking for victims, instead of sitting at home whining about not having any victims.

Sigging this.

[awa]

so you propose to steal several individuals will magical tricking them into being your friend then getting a gang of them to capture a more powerful creature so you could mentally violate him as well and do that on and on until you have enough slaves to overwhelm someone powerful enough to have a good ability for you to eat and you think they won’t hold a grudge? (Keeping in mind most of your slaves will be far stronger then you becuase you have a huge la) you think they will say well sure he’s a horrible abomination who forcibly conscripted me into an army and stole my free will for his own personally gain to my detriment but he’s hasn’t beaten me ill be his friend and keep serving his evil plan giving him the opportunity to enslave me again. is that actually what your arguing?

if that the case then i think your view of reality is sufficiently different from my own that no further discussion will have any benefit

[Flickerdart]

so you propose to steal several individuals will magical tricking them into being your friend then getting a gang of them to capture a more powerful creature so you could mentally violate him as well and do that on and on until you have enough slaves to overwhelm someone powerful enough to have a good ability for you to eat and you think they won’t hold a grudge? (Keeping in mind most of your slaves will be far stronger then you becuase you have a huge la) you think they will say well sure he’s a horrible abomination who forcibly conscripted me into an army and stole my free will for his own personally gain to my detriment but he’s hasn’t beaten me ill be his friend and keep serving his evil plan giving him the opportunity to enslave me again. is that actually what your arguing?

if that the case then i think your view of reality is sufficiently different from my own that no further discussion will have any benefit
Mentally violate? Illithids have tremendous Charisma, even without Charm and Suggestion they're really chill guys. Give a few fellows a little extra push to help you out with a matter of capturing a couple pesky ogres, then stage a jailbreak for them. Now they owe you their life, then you make them that extra bit friendlier and ask them to take care of a certain hag that's been plaguing the swamp...and so on and so forth until you have a bunch of minions who are best buds with you even without Charm. Sure, they'll be in a high turnover industry, but that's the risk they take, and adventuring rewards easily make kings of paupers. Hell, you could just hire a proper adventuring party to do it, hireling prices in the DMG are remarkably reasonable.
But yes, if you stumble around like a blind drunk dwarf, swinging your SLAs around like a club, then Illithids are not for you.

[Qwertystop]

But yes, if you stumble around like a blind drunk dwarf, swinging your SLAs around like a club, then Illithids are not for you.

Can I sig this?

[Flickerdart]

Be my guest.

[Xtomjames]

None of this is correct, even a little.

First of all, creatures gained through an ability (such as summoned monsters or animal companions) don't affect encounter CR, because they're part of the creature.

Second, RHD is not part of LA. They are two completely different things, and don't overlap together in any way.

Third, four 7th level characters have a CR of 11 (7, +2 for doubling, +2 for doubling). 11 is not 15; it is, in fact, quite a bit lower. Even if this were true, one CR7 creature is not a fair fight for a full 7th level party, but rather they are expected to trounce it soundly, expending only 20% of their resources.

Uh, no, you should really read up again on Encounter Level. DMG 1 and 2 have specific rules for how much EL increases, there is also rules in the Book of Challenges which also explain the increases to Encounter Level.

Four 7th level characters equate to a 15th level character. It's not a flat +2 increase per character, in fact each character Tier has a different increase. Tier 1 characters increase part potency by +4 per PC character of that tier. Tier 2 is a +3, Tier 3 is a +2, and Tier 4 & 5 is a +1 Tier 6 is a +0.

If you have an average party of four, with a healer, a tank, a spellcaster, and a sneaky type character at 7th level. You get a much higher challenge level range. For example a Cleric increases group CR by 4, a Fighter increases it by 1, a Rogue increases it by 1, and a Sorc increases it by 4 again.

7+2+8 is group challenge rating of 17.

Where as say you have a Fighter a Rogue a Monk and a Favored Soul, that number is lower roughly a group CR of 12.

The AVERAGE of most groups on which the CR of a creature is based, and for this case, is 15.

I really don't know where you got the doubling and add 2 here or there bit, I've never seen it before and I don't agree with you in the slightest.

When a creature summons other creatures to attack it, they are NOT part of the original Creatures CR. See Page 48 of the DMG on MULTIPLE MONSTERS and how multiple CREATURES increase the ENCOUNTER LEVEL.
***


No. Character level and ECL are the same. Both are equal to RHD + LA + class levels.

A Level 7 Mind Flayer has 14 hit dice (7 from RHD and 7 from the class levels) but is treated as a 22nd level character (14 HD + 8 LA) for all purposes - gaining experience, level of party, etc.

Likewise, a level 8 human has 8 hit dice (0 from RHD and 8 from class levels) and is treated as an 8th level character (8 HD + 0 LA) for the same purposes.

Spells like Blasphemy or Holy Word check hit dice. Encounters check ECL. This is why most LA isn't worth being behind levels - you're

NO they are not.


Savage Species Page 5 and I quote
Challenge Rating (CR): Challenge Rating plus
class level is a good measure of the creature's overall
threat to a party. A bugbear with four levels of barbarian
is CR 6, making it a good encounter for a
party of 4th to 8th level. It is more dangerous to a
party of lower level and less dangerous to one of
higher level.
Effective Character Level (ECL): A creature's
effective character level is the sum of its level
adjustment, Hit Dice, and class levels. Use character
level for all game functions except awarding
experience, determining starting equipment, and
determining how much experience the character
needs to gain a new level. All three of those functions
use effective character level instead.

My emphasis added.

ECL is not your Character's Functioning LEVEL. Character Level and Effective Character Level are not the same, period. Using the CR of a given monster class when LA isn't available is easier than trying to estimate an LA.

A monster class can be treated in one of TWO ways, and I prefer the second method over the first. The first is what you've described, but it is essentially double dipping the LA if you do what is defined, that is what the Actual Level or Functioning Level and the Effective Character Level are separate in D&D 3.5.

The second method is to treat HD as part of the LA and treating the Monster Hit Dice as Monster Class levels. In which case HD no longer applies in calculating ECL. This has been done for several creatures, including the Archon Hound.

Now please, check your sources before jumping my gun. You lot have done it time and time again, and yes I admit I've screwed up a few points here and there (though often only because the game mechanics vary and aren't always logical), but I know my character building stuff and I refuse to have this argument again.

[awa]

and those ogres will be completely useless against a level appropriate threat which is cr 17 so how are you go to go about with your plan of forcing a group of weak guys to gang up on stronger guys until you’ve got enough guys to take on with an ability you want? and while you spend months or even years attempting to build up enough man power to survive a single level appropriate encounter the rest of the party has ditched you for something useful like a single class monk.
also diplomacy isnt a class skill and you are 8 levels dwon so your not all that chill.

[Siosilvar]

Uh, no, you should really read up again on Encounter Level. DMG 1 and 2 have specific rules for how much EL increases, there is also rules in the Book of Challenges which also explain the increases to Encounter Level.

Four 7th level characters equate to a 15th level character. It's not a flat +2 increase per character, in fact each character Tier has a different increase. Tier 1 characters increase part potency by +4 per PC character of that tier. Tier 2 is a +3, Tier 3 is a +2, and Tier 4 & 5 is a +1 Tier 6 is a +0.

I really don't know where you got the doubling and add 2 here or there bit, I've never seen it before and I don't agree with you in the slightest.

When a creature summons other creatures to attack it, they are NOT part of the original Creatures CR. See Page 48 of the DMG on MULTIPLE MONSTERS and how multiple CREATURES increase the ENCOUNTER LEVEL.

The Book of Challenges is a third-party source, so let's go to the DMG, on... page 48. Funny how that works out.


In general, if a creature's Challenge Rating is two lower than a given Encounter Level, then two creatures of that kind equal an encounter of that Encounter Level. Thus, a pair of frost giants (CR 9 each) is an EL 11 encounter. The progression holds of doubling the number of creatures for each drop of two places in their individual CR, so that four CR 7 creatures (say, four hill giants) are an EL 11 encounter, as are eight CR 5 creatures (such as shadow mastiffs). This calculation does not work, however, with creatures whose CR is 1 or lower, so be sure to use Table 3-1: Encounter Numbers for such encounters.

Double the number of creatures is +2 CR, except for low-CR creatures.

Here's the summoned monsters quote. DMG page 37.


Do not award XP for creatures that enemies summon or otherwise add to their forces with magic powers. An enemy's ability to summon or add these creatures is part of the enemy's CR already. (You don't give PCs more XP if a drow cleric casts unholy blight on them, so don't give them more XP if she casts summon monster IV instead.)

That one's pretty straightforward.


...ECL and character level stuff...

Read your quote a little more thoroughly. Here's the last paragraph you quoted (this time with my emphasis):


Effective Character Level (ECL): A creature's
effective character level is the sum of its level
adjustment, Hit Dice, and class levels. Use character
level for all game functions except awarding
experience, determining starting equipment, and
determining how much experience the character
needs to gain a new level. All three of those functions
use effective character level instead.
EDIT: I see what you're trying to say. Okay, it doesn't take the place of level for everything, but it's pretty close, because most of the things that refer to level in the non-ECL sense refer to "level or Hit Dice" instead.

EDIT2: And it makes the raw deal that LA is even more apparent. Your 7th-level (14 HD, 22 ECL) mind flayer is in a party with other, 22nd-level (22 HD, 22 ECL) characters, getting the same XP and requiring the same XP to advance.

EDIT3:
The second method is to treat HD as part of the LA and treating the Monster Hit Dice as Monster Class levels. In which case HD no longer applies in calculating ECL. This has been done for several creatures, including the Archon Hound.No. You never treat HD as part of LA. IIRC, if you're using Savage Species, you don't gain any RHD or LA, only monster class levels (some of which have no HD). If you're not, you count all HD and LA when finding your ECL.


...A creature's ECL is the sum of its Hit Dice (including class levels) and level adjustment. For instance, a minotaur has 6 HD and a +2 level adjustment. It is the equivalent of an 8th-level character.

If anything in Savage Species says otherwise on this second case, it's superseded by the newer rulebook and primary source that is Monster Manual 3.5.

[Darthteej]

Can we all just agree that the rules for Monster as PCs are broken beyond repair and move on?

[Urpriest]

Sounds like a job for my Monstrous Guide to Monsters! Located in my sig.