Best Tome of Battle Disciplines for a Swordsage?

[wayfare]

In general, I'm interested in knowing what ToB disciplines are most useful for a Swordsage. I know that this will vary as per what I intend to play, but I wonder if there is some kind of "tier style" ranking of of the disciplines.

I like Diamond Mind and Stone Mountain, but Shadow hand also seems to have some really nice supernatural type effects (attacking folks with shadows, etc)

Many thanks

--Wayfare

[Flickerdart]

Shadow Hand has the teleporting maneuvers, and mobility like that is very useful. It also lets you employ Shadow Blade, which is a godsend for dexterity-focused characters.

[avr]

Stone Dragon really suffers from not working, say, upstairs at an inn. Or on a ship. Or while flying. Being on the ground is a drag, go Diamond Mind or Tiger Claw instead if you want to kill things.

Setting Sun is specialised, but good at what it does (defence & throwing people around). The Shadow Hand stances and teleports are useful, but you might prefer other disciplines when it comes to strikes.

(Edit) remember, you aren't restricted to just one of the disciplines, you can pick and choose the maneuvers you want within rather loose restrictions.

[Zaq]

None of them are bad. The weakest are probably Desert Wind (since fire is resisted by so much) and Stone Dragon (for the "can't be flying" restriction), but even a Swordsage who specialized in those two could find something to do.

I think Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw are probably mechanically the strongest (or at least put out the most raw damage, with a strong mention for Diamond Mind's defenses), but there are no truly bad options.

[tyckspoon]

Depends on what you're looking for, really. I'd say..

Raw damage output: Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind.
Being Ninja: Shadow Hand, Setting Sun.
Pushing the sword-"magic" thing a bit too far: Desert Wind (I kid; Desert Wind has some really nice utility and boost maneuvers, but if you want to blast with its signature strikes you'd be better off rolling an actual caster.)
Defensive: Diamond Mind, Setting Sun.
Cherry-picking Mountain Hammer: Stone Dragon.

[TroubleBrewing]

For Swordsages, Stone Dragon really should just be called Mountain Hammer.

[Eldariel]

Setting Sun has some of the best counters, Diamond Mind has some of the best utility and offense, Tiger Claw is well-rounded and Shadow Hand has few handy moves (and some fun stuff if you go Wisdom-focus with Intuitive Attack). Desert Wind and Stone Dragon have few maneuvers you probably want but they aren't really interesting for deep dips.

Diamond Mind is, I feel, the strongest discipline available to Swordsages but they're all good and Setting Sun is very deceptive in its power. It's actually really strong too and I'd probably rate it as the highest of the Swordsage-exclusive schools (Shadow Hand clearly better than Desert Wind, of course).

[Endarire]

Diamond Mind is my go-to discipline for Swordsages and Warblades. Desert Wind gives me plenty to do with my swift actions. Tiger Claw has its extra attack manuevers, but otherwise feels meh to me. Shadow Hand has Island of Blades, Cloak of Deception, and the teleport maneuvers. Setting Sun has its throws. Stone Dragon has its level 1 maneuvers.

[wayfare]

Diamond Mind seems really solid. My goal is to create a character with some serious combat ability, but with the occasional blatantly supernatural power. I'm thinking of going Diamond Mind and Shadow Hand for a sort of "mysterious mystic monk" kind of character.

My other idea is to go Stone Dragon and Setting Sun for a grappling monk type character. Any musts for an unarmed swordsage?

[Endarire]

Stone Dragon is meh, bordering on suicide at later levels. (If you can avoid the 'must use this on the ground' and 'can't use Stone Dragon stances and move well' crutches, Stone Dragon becomes passable, at least.)

As for grappling, by RAW, you can't initiate maneuvers while grappling. You probably can't use your stances either.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Diamond Mind seems really solid. My goal is to create a character with some serious combat ability, but with the occasional blatantly supernatural power. I'm thinking of going Diamond Mind and Shadow Hand for a sort of "mysterious mystic monk" kind of character.

My other idea is to go Stone Dragon and Setting Sun for a grappling monk type character. Any musts for an unarmed swordsage?

My Swordsages tend to be Diamond Mind/Shadow Hand but then agian I usually start with a Rogue. Both disciplines compliment Rogue combat abilities nicely (besides the lack of Concentration as a class skill). Though you definatly need to grab the Diamond Mind boost that uses Concentration check for Fort saves, its the only weak save Swordsages have. For me, Shadow Hand and Diamond Mind to a lesser extent are inexplicably linked with Swordsage in my mind.

But a Stone Dragon and Setting Sun focused Swordsage, with some Shadow Hand mobility maneuvers would be great if you can convince your DM to ignore the "must be on ground" part of Stone Dragon.

[tyckspoon]

As for grappling, by RAW, you can't initiate maneuvers while grappling. You probably can't use your stances either.

I.. don't think that's actually true. There's a line that says you must be able to move, and there's another comment that says most maneuvers probably won't be too useful in a grapple, but it doesn't actually say you can't initiate in a grapple. If you get pinned, ok, you're immobilized, so that falls under "must be able to move", but the mere condition of being grappled shouldn't do that. And nothing can turn off your stances; if you're already in one of the grapple-benefiting stances, you'll still get that benefit. The worst you can suffer from not being able to initiate is not being able to change your stance.

[Endarire]

Here's the thread that dissuaded me from a Warblade grappler (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12181.0).

[tyckspoon]

Here's the thread that dissuaded me from a Warblade grappler (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12181.0).

Eh. I disagree with his reasoning. I see no reason that "must be able to move to initiate" has to be conflated with "must be able to take a Move Action to initiate"; I'd be tempted to ask him if he also thinks that being Entangled, having your move speed reduced, being in difficult terrain, or climbing/swimming without the appropriate move speed type also prevent you from initiating, because none of those allow 'moving normally'. You should be able to initiate in almost any condition as long as you aren't paralyzed, immobile, or otherwise rendered completely incapable of movement.

That said, a full ToB build as a grappler isn't all that good an idea. If I wanted to do that, it'd probably look like Warblade/PsyWar or Warmind; go Warblade deep enough to get the constrict stance from Stone Dragon, then use Grip of Iron and Expansion to get the necessary size and numbers to grapple reliably. Proceed to crush stuff to death.

[JaronK]

Really, there's no point in being stuck to a style, so you just pick the best maneuvers of each for the most part. Stone Dragon is there entirely for Mountain Hammer. Shadow Hand gives some great maneuverability/stealth moves. Diamond Mind's saves are quite nice. Tiger Claw has some great moves for dual wielders. Setting Sun can be great for the right build too.

JaronK

[Dictum Mortuum]

Don't underestimate Desert Wind; it has some utility maneuvers that are quite good (e.g. that swift action elemental that provides flanking or Leaping Flame).


Really, there's no point in being stuck to a style, so you just pick the best maneuvers of each for the most part. Stone Dragon is there entirely for Mountain Hammer. Shadow Hand gives some great maneuverability/stealth moves. Diamond Mind's saves are quite nice. Tiger Claw has some great moves for dual wielders. Setting Sun can be great for the right build too.

JaronK

I agree. You can just distribute your focus over all the disciplines.

[TroubleBrewing]

If I wanted to do that, it'd probably look like Warblade/PsyWar or Warmind; go Warblade deep enough to get the constrict stance from Stone Dragon, then use Grip of Iron and Expansion to get the necessary size and numbers to grapple reliably. Proceed to crush stuff to death.

Wouldn't it just be easier and in almost every way better to just go straight PsyWar, then? Seems like kind of a waste of manifester levels. Unless you REALLY want to build a ToB grappler... But it's sort of like saying "I REALLY like Monks, and I don't just mean unarmed fighters, I mean the Monk base class! I'll play a Monk2/ Tash/PsyWar X!"


That said, a full ToB build as a grappler isn't all that good an idea.

That's pretty much how I feel, in a word.

EDIT: I forgot to include a "/nitpick" tag. That was more of a general question of interest than a criticism of your point.

[Runestar]

I find desert wind is great for low levels, where maneuvers like burning blade and flashing sun can let you quickly deal huge amounts of damage. However, past lv7+, it starts getting less attractive because both dr and fire resistance start applying (while other maneuvers typically only get blocked by dr). :smallsmile:

[tyckspoon]

Wouldn't it just be easier and in almost every way better to just go straight PsyWar, then? Seems like kind of a waste of manifester levels. Unless you REALLY want to build a ToB grappler... But it's sort of like saying "I REALLY like Monks, and I don't just mean unarmed fighters, I mean the Monk base class! I'll play a Monk2/ Tash/PsyWar X!"


If just grappling was your only concern, then yes, perhaps. But Constrict does really great things for a grappler's damage output, and the Stone Dragon stance is the only really accessible way I know to get it without just giving in and using shapechanging powers. And then there's the usual benefits for splashing Tome of Battle into almost any melee character- Wall of Blades, Iron Heart Surge, the Diamond Mind save replacers, and all the other usual suspects.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I find desert wind is great for low levels, where maneuvers like burning blade and flashing sun can let you quickly deal huge amounts of damage. However, past lv7+, it starts getting less attractive because both dr and fire resistance start applying (while other maneuvers typically only get blocked by dr). :smallsmile:

Well depending on the wording of the maneuvers (I am AFB so I can't check) it could convert all the damage to fire damage, which then would only be stopped by fire resistance and I am sure a level 7th and higher swordsage will be able to deal more than 20 points of damage ( I can't recall seeing a higher resistance that isn't outright immunity) per attack, and usually only the TWF swordsage will take those maneuvers.

Plus in any case Swordsages are (in a sense) the most versatile of the martial adepts so even if there is a fire resistant for, they will have something to use like Ruby Nightmare blade or Greater Insightful strike for example.

[Keld Denar]

If just grappling was your only concern, then yes, perhaps. But Constrict does really great things for a grappler's damage output, and the Stone Dragon stance is the only really accessible way I know to get it without just giving in and using shapechanging powers. And then there's the usual benefits for splashing Tome of Battle into almost any melee character- Wall of Blades, Iron Heart Surge, the Diamond Mind save replacers, and all the other usual suspects.

The other easy way to get Constrict is Shape Soulmeld (Kraken Mantle) + Open Lesser Chakra (Arms) (or a short dip in Totemist + Open Lesser Chakra). This way does slightly less damage (1d8+str rather than 2d6+1.5*str), but gives you a swim speed and a +2 untyped bonus on grapple checks.

The only other ways I can think of to get Constrict generally involve either changing shape into something with Constrict or being a shapechanger and taking a level of Nature's Warrior for Serpent's Coils.

EDIT: Also, evidence that stances work in grapples...Wolverine's Stance would do NOTHING if you couldn't use it in a grapple. Just a point I'd like to make.

[Safety Sword]

In real life your stance is most important when someone tries to grapple you!

Keld's point above also shows that yes, you can use stances in a grapple. And you probably should.