Chameleon Arcane Focus? Ehhhhhh...

[Treblain]

Is it just me, or is the Chameleon's Arcane Aptitude Focus so impractical that it's nearly as worthless in practice as most of the other focuses?

At first glance, it's the same as the Divine Focus, which is awesome; basically an Archivist-lite that doesn't have to search for its spells; it can just prepare whatever it wants.

But the Arcane Focus is fraught with problems and obstacles. First off, arcane spell failure. The chameleon is proficient with all armor, but is still subject to ASF and has no way to avoid it. I'd rather just stick with the divine focus and weed through splatbooks trying to find divine versions of arcane spells instead of bothering with the arcane focus.

And the big problem: spellbooks! My chameleon friend, you're a wizard! Except you don't get spells by leveling up, and you start at level 6 with no spellbook and no spells known.

You can "borrow" a spellbook from an enemy caster, but then it's the DM's choice what spells you get. And by RAW, it doesn't even work at all! The PHB says that you can only use borrowed spellbooks with spells you already learned and recorded in your own spellbook.:smallconfused: But ignoring that, you need to make a Spellcraft check to prepare from a borrowed book, and if you fail, you can't prepare it until the next day! Is Spellcraft a class skill for Chameleons? Of course not! (I know, Able Learner can solve that, but pretend we're not using Factotum entry, since the class wasn't designed with them in mind.)

But let's ignore all that. You've got a spellbook, you can use it. And you've got a great way to "learn" spells! Using Extra Spell and your floating feat, you can learn a new spell every day and then scribe it into your spellbook.* (A Spellcraft check here, too. If you fail to copy a spell, you can't try again until you gain a level.) Now, the primary obstacle here is time. If your DM gives you all the downtime you want to learn spells, groovy. But it's up to 48 hours per spell: 24 hours of Extra Spell, 24 hours of recording the spell, regardless of spell level. Getting a respectably-sized spellbook will take months, and lots of money.

*: I have no problem with the Extra Spell trick, but I'd like to note that the spellbook would be even more frustrating without it, and the designer probably didn't think of it. You'd have to hunt around for scrolls for bard, duskblade, wu jen, etc. spells.

Keep in mind: you probably can't scribe spells into your spellbook while you're not using the Arcane Focus. Which means you have to spend most of your time at lower levels trapped in that Aptitude Focus with only a handful of spells until you learn more, instead of using the instantly-useful Divine Focus. If you want your Arcane Focus to be effective at later levels, you have to spend all your time accumulating spells. By the time you can use Arcane and Divine Aptitudes simultaneously, it's probably pretty good, but that's ECL 12 and you haven't gotten to enjoy the class yet.

Conclusion: Man, and I thought the Combat, Stealth, and Wild focuses were a waste. I'm sure eventually you can do cool things with it with a generous DM and a lot of paperwork, but to me it doesn't seem worth it, especially when its Divine counterpart functions fine fresh out-of-the-box. I thought I liked the Chameleon, but it's starting to feel like a pretty pathetic class if only one out of five Aptitude Focuses is worth using.

[The-Mage-King]

Is it just me, or is the Chameleon's Arcane Aptitude Focus so impractical that it's nearly as worthless in practice as most of the other focuses?

Nope.


The PHB says that you can only use borrowed spellbooks with spells you already learned and recorded in your own spellbook.:smallconfused: But ignoring that, you need to make a Spellcraft check to prepare from a borrowed book, and if you fail, you can't prepare it until the next day!

See Comp. Arc (Mastering a spellbook). That makes the book YOURS, for all purposes.


Is Spellcraft a class skill for Chameleons? Of course not! (I know, Able Learner can solve that, but pretend we're not using Factotum entry, since the class wasn't designed with them in mind.)

Hm... But you already have 4 ranks, minimum. +2 from Aptitude Focus. Also, you have to have Able Learner, and the only classes to get both skills you need to have 8 ranks in are bard (has spellcraft) and rogue, assuming mostly core. So... Meh.


Keep in mind: you probably can't scribe spells into your spellbook while you're not using the Arcane Focus.

Keyword "Probably". Doesn't say that you can't, so by RAW you can.



So... Meh. It's decent.

[faceroll]

Doesn't say that you can't, so by RAW you can.

The rules don't say fighters don't have at will use of CL20 disintegrate as a free action, so by RAW, they do. :smallconfused:

[candycorn]

Strawman much?

The rules establish rules for scribing spells into spellbooks. At no point of the rules do they actually require you to be able to cast the spell you're scribing. You just need to be able to make the spellcraft check.

This isn't a case of whitelisting an ability without rules support because the rules don't specifically exclude it. (which is what your Reductio Ad Absurdium implies.)

This is a case of using rules that are in place to accomplish a task, and not using restrictions that the rules don't mention. (which is what is actually true.)

[faceroll]

Strawman much?

If I am committing a logical fallacy, it is not a strawman.


The rules establish rules for scribing spells into spellbooks. At no point of the rules do they actually require you to be able to cast the spell you're scribing. You just need to be able to make the spellcraft check.

This isn't a case of whitelisting an ability without rules support because the rules don't specifically exclude it.

This is a case of using rules that are in place to accomplish a task, and not using restrictions that the rules don't mention.

You need a class feature to use a class feature. Tautological, I know, but I thought I'd state as you seem to be under the mistaken impression that the rules not expressly forbidding an action means that that action is permissible.

Putting spells into a spellbook is a class feature. Read through the magic overview section about putting spells into spellbooks- you'll see that "wizard" is mentioned in those entries. It doesn't say druid or fighter or "you may" it is always wizard.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#addingSpellstoaWizardsSpellbook

Without arcane focus, you probably don't have whatever class feature it is that lets you put spells into a spellbook. But then I don't care about chameleons, so I'm not going to dig the rules up on arcane focus. I'll let OP copy relevant text here.

[Vizzerdrix]

The feat Magical Training gives you a spellbook. Even comes with a few cantrips too!

(Note to self: Look into taking magical training and Southern magician as a Mystic Ranger to get some of those tasty archery spells.)

[faceroll]

(Note to self: Look into taking magical training and Southern magician as a Mystic Ranger to get some of those tasty archery spells.)

Mystic Rangers are extremely feat starved, suffer some pretty bad MAD, and never seem to get quite enough spells/day. Trying to work around those issues gives me a headache.


/offtopic

[deuxhero]

No, the trick to using it is that you aren't stuck on the Wizard/Sorc list.

Go go trapsmith!

[Calanon]

The rules don't say fighters don't have at will use of CL20 disintegrate as a free action, so by RAW, they do. :smallconfused:

The rules don't say I can't get up and give the other person across the table 5 across the eyes, so by RAW, I can. :smallbiggrin:

[candycorn]

You need a class feature to use a class feature. Tautological, I know, but I thought I'd state as you seem to be under the mistaken impression that the rules not expressly forbidding an action means that that action is permissible.Correct. You do need a class feature to use a class feature. That's why only casters can use potions (which make the imbiber the caster of the spell). That's why this spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/imbuewithspellability.htm) can only work when it targets casters.

Seriously, abilities similar to class features can be gained in a wide variety of ways.

Putting spells into a spellbook is a class feature. No, it is not. Spellcasting is a class feature, sometimes. Other times, it can be a racial feature (see Nymph, for example). Adding spells to a spellbook is neither. It is a general rule, listed under Writings, Magical, in the Rules Compendium. The requirements are understanding the spell, and then being a spellcaster. Make a spellcraft check (DC 15 + Spell level), and you understand the spell (you must be a caster that uses a spellbook for this step). After that is successful, all you must do is be a spellcaster (you can be arcane or divine, prepared or not. No restriction is made of this requirement, beyond "be a spellcaster"). That's the only requirement.

NOT a class feature. A general ability, outlined totally away from the classes which use it.

So, a bard / Chameleon with arcane focus runs across a few scrolls. He makes the spellcraft check. Now he understands the spells on the scroll (doesn't need to be able to cast them for this; a level 1 wizard that makes a DC 24 spellcraft will understand a scroll of meteor swarm, even if that wizard cannot cast it). The next day, he chooses a different focus. He is a spellcaster (Bard) and he understands the spell (previous roll). By the rules listed in the Rules Compendium, he may write that scroll into his spellbook.

Those are the rules. They allow it. They don't say you need to be able to cast the spell. They don't even say it needs to be on your spell list. All you must do is: Spellcraft check to understand (as a spellcaster that uses a spellbook), and then, at any time in the future, be a caster and choose to scribe it.


Read through the magic overview section about putting spells into spellbooks- you'll see that "wizard" is mentioned in those entries. It doesn't say druid or fighter or "you may" it is always wizard.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#addingSpellstoaWizardsSpellbookRe ad through the "Writings, Magical" section of the Rules Compendium, which updates that to account for the fact that wizards aren't the only spellbook users any more. You'll find "wizard" is replaced with "spellcaster".


Without arcane focus, you probably don't have whatever class feature it is that lets you put spells into a spellbook. But then I don't care about chameleons, so I'm not going to dig the rules up on arcane focus. I'll let OP copy relevant text here.You don't seem to care much about accuracy, either. Check out Rules Compendium, page 160.

[Gnaeus]

Is it just me, or is the Chameleon's Arcane Aptitude Focus so impractical that it's nearly as worthless in practice as most of the other focuses?

No.


But the Arcane Focus is fraught with problems and obstacles. First off, arcane spell failure. The chameleon is proficient with all armor, but is still subject to ASF and has no way to avoid it. I'd rather just stick with the divine focus and weed through splatbooks trying to find divine versions of arcane spells instead of bothering with the arcane focus.

My twilight mithral chain shirt says this is not a problem.




You can "borrow" a spellbook from an enemy caster, but then it's the DM's choice what spells you get. And by RAW, it doesn't even work at all! The PHB says that you can only use borrowed spellbooks with spells you already learned and recorded in your own spellbook.:smallconfused: But ignoring that, you need to make a Spellcraft check to prepare from a borrowed book, and if you fail, you can't prepare it until the next day!

This was fully and correctly addressed.


Is Spellcraft a class skill for Chameleons? Of course not! (I know, Able Learner can solve that, but pretend we're not using Factotum entry, since the class wasn't designed with them in mind.)

As mentioned, not a problem for factotum entry, or for bard entry. What are other likely candidates? Rogue doesn't get max ranks, but you don't need max ranks to scribe first or second level spells when you are 7th or 8th level. Beguiler? No problem. Cloistered cleric (w/ trickery domain)? No problem. Spellthief? No problem. What else are we likely to use for entry?


But let's ignore all that. You've got a spellbook, you can use it. And you've got a great way to "learn" spells! Using Extra Spell and your floating feat, you can learn a new spell every day and then scribe it into your spellbook.* (A Spellcraft check here, too. If you fail to copy a spell, you can't try again until you gain a level.) Now, the primary obstacle here is time. If your DM gives you all the downtime you want to learn spells, groovy. But it's up to 48 hours per spell: 24 hours of Extra Spell, 24 hours of recording the spell, regardless of spell level. Getting a respectably-sized spellbook will take months, and lots of money.

Blessed book makes it cheap. The rest of your argument is about downtime. Some things casters do (making items, researching spells, scribing) do take downtime. Sorry. Yes, your DM can be a jerk and not let you use your class features.


*: I have no problem with the Extra Spell trick, but I'd like to note that the spellbook would be even more frustrating without it, and the designer probably didn't think of it. You'd have to hunt around for scrolls for bard, duskblade, wu jen, etc. spells.

Yep, you have to hunt for spells. Kind of like the archivist, who is one of the strongest classes in the game. My DM will not let me scribe using extra spell, and I use arcane focus regularly.


Keep in mind: you probably can't scribe spells into your spellbook while you're not using the Arcane Focus. Which means you have to spend most of your time at lower levels trapped in that Aptitude Focus with only a handful of spells until you learn more, instead of using the instantly-useful Divine Focus. If you want your Arcane Focus to be effective at later levels, you have to spend all your time accumulating spells. By the time you can use Arcane and Divine Aptitudes simultaneously, it's probably pretty good, but that's ECL 12 and you haven't gotten to enjoy the class yet.

You don't have to have them both active at same time to get benefits of both. Chameleons get lots of all-day spells on divine side, like GMW, Magic Vestment, Heart of X, Primal X, etc. You can fill a full spell list with all day buffs, then switch to arcane for combat spells.


Conclusion: Man, and I thought the Combat, Stealth, and Wild focuses were a waste. I'm sure eventually you can do cool things with it with a generous DM and a lot of paperwork, but to me it doesn't seem worth it, especially when its Divine counterpart functions fine fresh out-of-the-box. I thought I liked the Chameleon, but it's starting to feel like a pretty pathetic class if only one out of five Aptitude Focuses is worth using.

Wild and stealth do suck. Combat usually sucks (but there are exceptions).

[Treblain]

No.
Yep, you have to hunt for spells. Kind of like the archivist, who is one of the strongest classes in the game. My DM will not let me scribe using extra spell, and I use arcane focus regularly.

And your DM says that in your world, NPC trapsmiths, bards, duskblades, hexblades, etc... spend a feat on Scribe Spell and distribute their scrolls, just because they love to give Chameleons a chance to learn their spells? That's awfully kind of them.


You don't have to have them both active at same time to get benefits of both. Chameleons get lots of all-day spells on divine side, like GMW, Magic Vestment, Heart of X, Primal X, etc. You can fill a full spell list with all day buffs, then switch to arcane for combat spells.

Great, more bookkeeping.

Concerning the whole "scribing spells while not in the Arcane Focus" thing, I am well aware that nowhere does it say you have to be a wizard to put spells in a spellbook. I really don't know what to say about that. It's a hole in the rules, and as such would be up to the DM.

I didn't know about the rules for mastering a stolen spellbook, and yeah, the Spellcraft checks aren't that tough. My fault. The Chameleon text referred me to the PHB, so I figured that was the full extent of the rules on that subject. <sarcasm>Of course the book wouldn't refer me to CArc page with the rules that were actually useful.</sarcasm> :smallfurious:

Look, I know that the Chameleon, properly made, is a great class. I'm looking at how annoying it can be, should your DM not just give you a free pass. I admit it's really not that bad, except in comparison to the divine focus, which highlights the strange divide between divine and arcane spellcasting in general.

[Fouredged Sword]

And your DM says that in your world, NPC trapsmiths, bards, duskblades, hexblades, etc... spend a feat on Scribe Spell and distribute their scrolls, just because they love to give Chameleons a chance to learn their spells? That's awfully kind of them.


No, you find a trapsmith and pay him to contribute the spell component of a scroll you are makeing. Team crafting rules allow you to provide the feat, and another caster to provide the spell knowledge. What more you have a floating feat so you don't even need to have scribe scroll when you don't need it.

Yes haste as a level one spell is worth it.

In theory you can use this to make divine and arcane verisons of spells not normaly divine or arcane, as the scroll is always the type of the crafter, and you can choose to be ether divine or arcane, but this is getting into cheeze.

[Dictum Mortuum]

It is true that it's a lot more frustrating than it looks, compared to the other foci, however, if you invest resources into it it's worth it.

[faceroll]

however, if you invest resources into it it's worth it.

I dare say that's true of most things in D&D.

[Fouredged Sword]

Unlike most things in DnD though, this just requires an investment of gold and time. No feat needed (perminantly) or anything like that.

I would suggest you just hang out and not use this focus or worry about seaking out spells, but if your DM happens to give you some down time, make some rolls to search out the spells you want to write down into your book.

[Dictum Mortuum]

I dare say that's true of most things in D&D.

Except grappling :p

...

and Healers :p

[JaronK]

If you invest time into a Healer, they hit level 17 and start gating in Solars. So, it works.

Grappling... less so.

JaronK

[Fouredged Sword]

I think a Feral half mintaur/half giant/kobold psi war can grapple effectivly. They alway qualify as tiny (or small maybe, can't think straight right now) for reaping mauler, and psiwar can make them big enough to grapple almost everything.

You are large, counting as tiny whenever it helps you, and things die if you hold them in a grapple for 3 rounds. Mix this with mosterous feats that let you grapple without being grappled (by takeign -20, but eh, you are really strong and big)

I shal call min Tiny Tim, the giant grappler.

[deuxhero]

Grapples are viable... for a malconvoker.

[Tvtyrant]

Grappling; it works with Shapechange and Enlarge Person! Take the form of a Balhanoth and then enlarge yourself for the ability to grapple people even with Freedom of Movement.

Also, Chameleon's best bet with arcane is to have your wizard friend copy his spells into your spell book for you. You pay for it of course.

[candycorn]

Great, more bookkeeping. I'm sorry that classes with many powerful options (e.g. spellcasters) require more work to keep track of those options. That neither makes it impractical or worthless. Just time consuming.


I didn't know about the rules for mastering a stolen spellbook, and yeah, the Spellcraft checks aren't that tough. My fault. The Chameleon text referred me to the PHB, so I figured that was the full extent of the rules on that subject. <sarcasm>Of course the book wouldn't refer me to CArc page with the rules that were actually useful.</sarcasm> :smallfurious:None of the Races of books really address other supplements, only Core books. It doesn't assume you'll have those books.


Look, I know that the Chameleon, properly made, is a great class. I'm looking at how annoying it can be, should your DM not just give you a free pass. I admit it's really not that bad, except in comparison to the divine focus, which highlights the strange divide between divine and arcane spellcasting in general.
It's actually really good, especially with factotum entry. For example, Factotum 5/chameleon 5 is CL 10. Magic missile from factotum at that level can do 5d4+((1 + Int modifier) x5). For a 28 intelligence (18 base, +2 racial +4 item, +2 level boost, +2 ability boon), that's 5d4 + 50, or an average of 62.5 damage.

By chameleon 7, you'll be at 32 Int (+6 item, +4 ability boon), for 72.5 damage, and you'll be able to throw a quickened Magic missile as well, hitting 145 damage at level 12. And that's just a blasting option, which is admittedly sub-par, as options go.