[3.5] Time Shenanigans (Clones... Clones Everywhere)!

[Terumitsu]

Have you ever wanted to be your own best friend? Ever thought that you could get the job done that much faster if you only had one more of yourself? Have you ever looked at the Time Duplicate epic spell and say 'I bet I can do better than that!'?

Well look no farther, friends, for now you can have an army of yourself by cruelly abusing the workings of time and causality for fun, profit, and only a minor* chance of celestial asteroid strikes sent by an angry DM.

Ingredients:

You

A psion who has Quicken Power and, can manifest Time Hop and Time Regression

Recipe:

1. Have the psion manifest Quickened Time Hop on you.

2. Immediately afterward, the psion should manifest Time Regression

3. Wait until your Time Hopped self reappears.

4. ???? (Strangely wrong yet so right self make out scene? No idea, really)

5. Profit!

Why it works:

The wording of Time Hop is as such that when it is manifest upon a subject, said subject is 'immediately' (Ohgods here come the tense troubles.) temporally relocated into the future. By immediate, I mean that the subject isn't 'Unable to act upon/perceive things while propagated along the normal timeline like everyone else' but 'Shunted ahead in time to a certain point.'

To better illustrate, this is like a spell or power that moves someone through space like Teleport rather than making them walk the distance. This property allows for a very interesting loophole in causality as, because Time Hop has an 'immediate' effect as described above and thus rules the subject 'outside' of time for the (pardon me for this) time being, 'undoing' the manifestation of Time Hop does not negate it's effects. The final effect, as you can see, allows you to duplicate just about anything that can be subject to the Time Hop spell at 1000XP a pop.

In addition, due to how this works out, you, the player, still have control over any and all of the resulting clones.

*For a given value of 'minor.' Cannot be held responsible for any resulting 'flusterclucks**,' or extremely pissy Inevitables that result in abusing the time stream. Please use responsibly***

**Flustercluck is an industry term

***Abuse maliciously

[Aegis013]

That would work indeed. There's some issue with getting that Quicken onto those manifestations unless magic/psionics are totally transparent in a game, in which case I suppose you could use a metamagic rod.

However, even if you duped all your stuff, it doesn't mean you have two copies, or two characters, most likely, the DM would confiscate the copy, and the end result could be horribly bad. If you Time Hopped forward, and your copy had already done it but bad things happened, the you waiting for you in the future might be ready to do something you wouldn't be able to foresee.

It's a neat trick, but it certainly stinks of cheese and it's not too far fetched for a DM to make things go horribly wrong. I still like it though, cool trick.

[Analytica]

You may be right, of course, but I don't really understand it.

1. Time Hop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeHop.htm) is manifested as a swift action, on turn T for the psion. This makes the target end up in the future. It's written strangely, as:


From the subject’s point of view, no time has passed at all.

In each round of the power’s duration, on what would have been the subject’s turn, it can attempt a DC 15 Wisdom check. Success allows the subject to return. The subject can act normally on its next turn after this power ends.

So no time passes, but each round of time that doesn't pass, the subject can get a Will save to return. Nevertheless, it certainly is moved into temporal stasis, then reemerges in the future.

2. Time Regression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeRegression.htm) is manifested.


You can regress apparent time 1 round into the past. In effect, you “replay” the previous round of activity. The power regresses time to the point along the time stream just prior to your previous turn, undoing the effects of everyone else’s actions in the meantime. Once you have used time regression, only you retain knowledge of what happened during the round that is being replayed; however, you can communicate that knowledge verbally to your companions, if desired. During the round that you live through a second time, you can act on knowledge you previously gained by already living through the immediate future. In all likelihood, you’ll probably not choose to manifest time regression during your second pass through the time stream, instead taking completely new actions, but you pay the XP cost all the same.

This (I think? I find the description hard to read.) makes it so that it is now immediately before the psion started their previous turn, i.e. just before their turn T-1. Anything that happened after that has not yet happened, and might not happen. The only difference is that the psion is down 1000XP and knows what previously would have happened in their turn T-1, and in their turn T up to the manifestation of Time Regression.

Doesn't this mean that the psion thus far never did, in fact, manifest Time Hop, quickened or otherwise? I may certainly be missing something.

EDIT: I guess I interpret "undoing the effects of everyone else’s actions" as also undoing the effects of any actions of the psion, i.e. the omission being an oversight. If not... then anything the psion did in their turn T-1 or as a swift action in turn T before regressing still may have happened. Though... what, if so, did those actions affect? If the psion made a sending in turn T-1, did the message still get through? Possibly yes. If the psion manifested an astral construct in turn T-1, will that still show up in turn T-1 despite the psion not manifesting the power this time around? That opens up some nova abuse under this interpretation, as well...

... but if so, if the effects of anything the psion does in turns T-1 and T still take place, so that the Time Hop effect still takes place, won't that just mean that the target will blink out in early turn T, despite no apparent manifestation from the psion, then reappear again after some time? Even assuming that the psion's actions still retain their effects, wouldn't that cheat us out of the duplicate, because the effect that causes the duplicate to appear will also whisk away the target?

[Terumitsu]

This (I think? I find the description hard to read.) makes it so that it is now immediately before the psion started their previous turn, i.e. just before their turn T-1. Anything that happened after that has not yet happened, and might not happen. The only difference is that the psion is down 1000XP and knows what previously would have happened in their turn T-1, and in their turn T up to the manifestation of Time Regression.

Doesn't this mean that the psion thus far never did, in fact, manifest Time Hop, quickened or otherwise? I may certainly be missing something.

The wording of Time Hop allows it's effects to be propagated forward even though it's initial manifestation is 'removed' from the timeline. Think of it as an 'alternate timeline clone' or whatever. That's basically what I'm trying to get across.

And yes, this is obviously a bit abusive due to the implications but I think that it could also be used by a DM as a story element. Say BBEG uses themselves as a body double or something.

Or even better, use it as a nifty trigger for a 'You broke time! You Idiot!' plot and the PCs must scramble to relight the McGuffin(s) before all of reality unwinds and becomes a great big ball of timey-wimeyless stuff where up is the left turn you weren't about to take a year ago and down is cantaloupe.

Really, the intent of this topic was simply to put forth the idea and to see if there were any flaws that I overlooked. It's more of an experiment with the rules in the game than a real intent to use this.

[Analytica]

The wording of Time Hop allows it's effects to be propagated forward even though it's initial manifestation is 'removed' from the timeline. Think of it as an 'alternate timeline clone' or whatever. That's basically what I'm trying to get across.

I like the goal, and want to understand this. Could you please point out how the wording states that the effect will still take place even though the power is no longer going to be manifested?


The subject of the power hops forward in time 1 round for every manifester level you have. In effect, the subject seems to disappear in a shimmer of silver energy, then reappear after the duration of this power expires. The subject reappears in exactly the same orientation and condition as before. From the subject’s point of view, no time has passed at all.

In each round of the power’s duration, on what would have been the subject’s turn, it can attempt a DC 15 Wisdom check. Success allows the subject to return. The subject can act normally on its next turn after this power ends.

If the space from which the subject departed is occupied upon his return to the time stream, he appears in the closest unoccupied space, still in his original orientation. Determine the closest space randomly if necessary.

I see no explicit exception that it will take place even if the original manifestation is prevented from occurring. If I read you correctly, you mean that since this is an instant movement-type effect, removing the events that caused it, it will still take place? Meaning basically that any instant movement-type effects in general (also including teleportations caused by someone during the regressed time) would remain despite their causes having been removed?

But even so, isn't the target disappearing also part of the instant movement effect, so that you would still have the target both disappearing and reappearing, thereby preventing a clone from arising?

Don't get me wrong - you may well be right, I just want to understand it.

(If this turns out not to work, it would still make a lot of sense to introduce a new power that does indeed create a duplicate through some sort of branching time streams, and I would also find such a power highly interesting. :smallsmile:)

[Terumitsu]

Well, here is another way of looking at it, I suppose.

The Time Hopped PC is sent into the future. Now, one can look at them basically being 'outside time' until they reappear or just shunted to the future. In either case, this means that they are unaffected by Time Regression because they are 'outside' it's 'temporal range.'

This really helps if you see time in this case like a plane of 5' squares where everyone is going in one direction at one square a round. Everytime someone takes a step, they 'leave themselves behind' and appear in the new square, basically existing in two 'places' at once. Time hop makes a person suddenly 'run' up to a square that is 'ahead' of everyone and 'wait' for them to catch up while Time Regression makes everyone within the same 'line' (Line being 'current time') back up one square. However, due to time being like it is, the person who was Time Hopped still exists in this range of squares. Now, when this person takes a 'step,' they aren't sent into the future and simply 'walk' with everyone else. However, the same person in the future is still 'waiting' for everyone to 'catch up' and when they do, this means that the Time Hopped person is occupying the same 'line' as the person who was not sent forward.

....I hope that made it a bit clearer than mud as time is a rather messy thing to try and describe. At least, it is when one isn't using math and even then it's somewhat tricky.

Also, I have just thought of a way to make this entire thing worse by adding 'Fission' into the mix to basically allow oneself to gain all the levels given enough time... I... I should probably stop there before I hurt myself or someone else...

[Cog]

Nifty idea, but I don't think it works. The critical issue is whether Time Regression actually rewinds time or if it just rearranges everything in the universe to how it was at a previous time. If it's the former, then while the Time Hopped creature is in a separate timeline at the moment of manifesting Regression, it's still connected to the main timeline at the point of Hop's manifestation, and when time regresses to that point then Regression affects both timelines. If it's the latter, then Regression can only affect what is in the universe at the time of its manifestation, and the separate timeline of the Hop target would indeed be unaffected. However, the wording of the Regression power seems far more consistent with the first reading than the second.

[Terumitsu]

Nifty idea, but I don't think it works. The critical issue is whether Time Regression actually rewinds time or if it just rearranges everything in the universe to how it was at a previous time. If it's the former, then while the Time Hopped creature is in a separate timeline at the moment of manifesting Regression, it's still connected to the main timeline at the point of Hop's manifestation, and when time regresses to that point then Regression affects both timelines. If it's the latter, then Regression can only affect what is in the universe at the time of its manifestation, and the separate timeline of the Hop target would indeed be unaffected. However, the wording of the Regression power seems far more consistent with the first reading than the second.

A good, valid point, depending on how one runs the workings of time in a given game. The clash of RAW and RAI and all that jazz.

Either way, it's pretty much up to the DM as to if this works in the first place or not.

Also, thank you all for your input. Should have probably said that earlier but better late at minding my manners than simply never getting to it at all.

[Analytica]

This really helps if you see time in this case like a plane of 5' squares where everyone is going in one direction at one square a round. Everytime someone takes a step, they 'leave themselves behind' and appear in the new square, basically existing in two 'places' at once. Time hop makes a person suddenly 'run' up to a square that is 'ahead' of everyone and 'wait' for them to catch up while Time Regression makes everyone within the same 'line' (Line being 'current time') back up one square. However, due to time being like it is, the person who was Time Hopped still exists in this range of squares. Now, when this person takes a 'step,' they aren't sent into the future and simply 'walk' with everyone else. However, the same person in the future is still 'waiting' for everyone to 'catch up' and when they do, this means that the Time Hopped person is occupying the same 'line' as the person who was not sent forward.

I see, interesting. But with this analogy, if I understand you correctly, Time Regression takes everyone present in temporal line T (current time) and moves them back to the previous line T-1. Since these targets (i.e. everyone for which time is regressed, basically the entire world) do not seem to "crash" into any previous T-1 selves when doing this, it seems they go back to an empty line T-1, which is empty because they previously vacated it by going to line T, from which they now return. As such, if someone is not present in line T when the power is manifested, that someone won't be present in T-1 either after the power has been manifested, because they previously left T-1 and they also do not go back to it, since the Time Regression cannot affect them. I.e., you will reappear after the Time Hop, but you won't be present in the regressed round, since you were not present to be affected by the regression. Am I making any sense?

To be honest, discussing "before" and "after" outside a timestream is difficult, perhaps because our language is not adapted for it... :smallsigh:


Also, I have just thought of a way to make this entire thing worse by adding 'Fission' into the mix to basically allow oneself to gain all the levels given enough time... I... I should probably stop there before I hurt myself or someone else...

Once you pop you can't stop. :smallbiggrin: