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late for dinner
2011-10-03, 01:24 PM
I am going to gm a supers game and was wondering what was the best super hero system to use?? Any suggestions?? And why? or Why Not.

THanks :)

Beleriphon
2011-10-03, 02:31 PM
I am going to gm a supers game and was wondering what was the best super hero system to use?? Any suggestions?? And why? or Why Not.

THanks :)


I'm a huge fan of Mutants and Mastermind Third Edition (or DC Adventures, same game different pictures). Its similar enough to d20 games that you can pick up and play quickly, but offers enough customization that you can make dang near any character you could even want. There are some concepts that don't work well in the game, but that's more an issue of M&M being a game with players than a comic book.

With the suggested stating hero of 150 points at Power Level 10 you can get something that feel very much like the X-Men or Spider-Man. Increase that to around Power Level 12 and you get the JLA or The Avengers, decrease it to around Power Level 8 you get something more like Dare Devil. Keep going down to Power Level 6 and you get something like James Bond or The Howling Commandos.

Very cinematic the resolution system is roll a d20 add stuff. Combat is fast, everybody gets exactly one attack (that can be modified in many ways to represent different attacks). Damage is simple: resist the attack, fail and you get cumulative penalties to future resistance attempts, fail bad enough and other bad things start happening too (stunned, etc.).

Powers are created from effects. There is no "Fireball Power" in the rules, there is the Damage effect, which can then be made Ranged and Burst Area. This is terrific since it basically means you decide what a power does and the build it using the rules. As a note there are a few rules quirks from unclear wording, and some effects that can be totally broken if taken to extreme levels or combined in certain ways. This isn't really the fault of the system given what it is trying to model.

late for dinner
2011-10-03, 03:00 PM
Cool. Thanks. I was leaning towards M&M. By one attack in a battle, does that mean if they miss they just blew it and never get to attack again? Or, they get to attack again on their next turn, but they only get one attack on each turn?

the_fencer0
2011-10-03, 03:29 PM
Cool. Thanks. I was leaning towards M&M. By one attack in a battle, does that mean if they miss they just blew it and never get to attack again? Or, they get to attack again on their next turn, but they only get one attack on each turn?

One attack per turn. That would seriously blow if you only got one shot under normal circumstances to KO an enemy.

Cloaked Bloke
2011-10-03, 03:29 PM
I actually recommend Mutants and Masterminds 2nd edition. I tried the DC version and it's really not quite the same, for me as a player OR a DM.

Really, I say you should grab the core book for M&M 2e along with "Ultimate Power", which comes with its very own in-depth rules for creating super-powers if you don't like the gigantic amount the two books already offer.

Beleriphon
2011-10-03, 03:47 PM
Cool. Thanks. I was leaning towards M&M. By one attack in a battle, does that mean if they miss they just blew it and never get to attack again? Or, they get to attack again on their next turn, but they only get one attack on each turn?

Sorry, I should have been clearer. You can one attack per turn normally (there are exceptions and ways to do more, but they have other costs involved). Batman can punch the Joker once per turn, just like the Flash can punch Captain Boomerang once. You'd think that the Flash could punch Captain Cold X^N times, but the rules work out to one attack per turn although that attack could be constructed dozens of different ways and might not even be damage.

Another point is the Affliction effect. It's an attack, but you get to pick three different "affliction effects" that are progressively more debilitating. The rules are petty nice, and the effect is good for a great many bad guy makes the hero less effective attacks.

gbprime
2011-10-03, 04:06 PM
I'm old school. Champions (Hero System) 4th or 5th Ed. It's a math excercise to put the character together, but after that the game system is streamlined and powerful. There's nothing the system can't do, it's limited only by your available character points and your imagination. (That said, the GM has to be willing to say "no" when a player wants to build something that is too optimized for the campaign.)

Beleriphon
2011-10-03, 04:31 PM
I'm old school. Champions (Hero System) 4th or 5th Ed. It's a math excercise to put the character together, but after that the game system is streamlined and powerful. There's nothing the system can't do, it's limited only by your available character points and your imagination. (That said, the GM has to be willing to say "no" when a player wants to build something that is too optimized for the campaign.)

This is why I like M&M, its as versatile as Champions, without the extra math. That said, any point based system you feel you can understand should work.

Xiander
2011-10-03, 04:40 PM
I have to advertise a little for ICONs here.

It is a very simple system, and it is written to emulate comicbook heroes. It has a very certain style, but if you enjoy that style it is very good at it. There are some oddities in the system, but they are easily fixed.

The most positive thing about the system is that it is loose enough to model anything you can come up with, and all the powers listed in the system comes with multiple suggestions as to what exactly the power represents. This means that two character with the same stat-line could conceivably be fluffed as something completely different.

Another important point about the system is that it is fastmoving. Only the players are supposed to roll dice (althugh the GM might have to make some rolls every now and then, depending on his style), which actually makes the game rather smooth an quick.

A last very positive note is, the determination system. Basicly players get points which they can use to enhance their rolls, or do stuff not normally allowed within the rules. The kicker is: the points can only be used when the player can tag a "quality" (a positive trait which the player is free to come up with at character creation), the points can only be regained by dealing with the repercussions of the characters challenges (Negative traits players come up with during character creation).
This system leads to very colorful diverse characters, and encourages the players to give the GM dirt on their characters, which he can work into the plot or use as random input at his own leisure.

Tengu_temp
2011-10-03, 05:05 PM
I actually recommend Mutants and Masterminds 2nd edition. I tried the DC version and it's really not quite the same, for me as a player OR a DM.

Really, I say you should grab the core book for M&M 2e along with "Ultimate Power", which comes with its very own in-depth rules for creating super-powers if you don't like the gigantic amount the two books already offer.

I think M&M 3e is a better game - it has clearer rules, it's a bit easier to build characters, and game balance is better. At the same time, 2e still has a much bigger fanbase, and it has useful splatbooks such as Warriors and Warlocks or Mecha and Manga. I prefer 2e currently, but that will change once 3e grows.

Friv
2011-10-03, 05:20 PM
I think M&M 3e is a better game - it has clearer rules, it's a bit easier to build characters, and game balance is better. At the same time, 2e still has a much bigger fanbase, and it has useful splatbooks such as Warriors and Warlocks or Mecha and Manga. I prefer 2e currently, but that will change once 3e grows.

I'm finding that there are strengths and weaknesses to both 2e and 3e. On the one hand, the increased breakdown of 3e powers makes them even more easily customized, and I love the new, smaller skillset and the removal of non-bonus numbers to Abilities. On the other hand, Dexterity/Agility as two seperate traits can go die in a fire, and there's no good reason for Fighting to only apply to close combat and parrying.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-10-03, 05:41 PM
D&D 3.5 actually does this quite well. Warlock for flight, shooting lasers, spider climb, and invisibility. Tome of Battle stuff for badass normals. Artificers for gadget makers. Factotums for anything you want.

Chambers
2011-10-03, 10:47 PM
D&D 3.5 actually does this quite well. Warlock for flight, shooting lasers, spider climb, and invisibility. Tome of Battle stuff for badass normals. Artificers for gadget makers. Factotums for anything you want.

Not really. What if I want my character to Walk on Walls power (warlock invocation), Break Heavy Doors With Fist power (Elder Mountain Hammer), and Anything You Can Do I Can Do Too! Power (Facototum)? In D&D rules that'd be a high-level multi-classed character in order to even have all of those powers. Mutants and Masterminds lets you have a character start out with all of those powers.

D&D doesn't work for this because in order to get the cool powers you have to take levels in a class. M&M is point buy, so you get what you want and don't have to take 6 levels of Warlock in order to get that one invocation you wanted.

Knaight
2011-10-03, 11:04 PM
I'm going to second ICONS, and submit Capes and Wild Talents. The first two are rules light, ICONS being lightweight genre simulation, and Capes narrativism. Wild Talents is far crunchier, but uses the ORE system, which is absolutely brilliant. It and Godlike, another ORE game are probably the best rules heavy superhero systems on the market, and which you use is really a matter of setting.

late for dinner
2011-10-03, 11:08 PM
Thanks for the Imput guys. I ended up getting M&M 3rd edition. From what it sounds, Its a good "easy to make a bad guy/understand and do the math on the go" game. Pluss, it has a lot of similarities to tru 20 system, which I am familiar with...and one dice is very nice. I was kinda confused why dex wasnt just the defense and they added agility into it, but, oh well...I guess you can have an acrobat who cant shoot for beans :) I already started making my first Villian...I figured I would start my guys out at PL 10....I have 3 in my group, so I made a PL12 bad guy?

Is that too mean? He is a dodgey, acrobatty, shoot sound from his mouth, notices everything, actually decent in a fist fight bad guy. Also...I am having a hard time understanding what you add to your attack dice when shooting a blast...do I add Dex + power level of blast and compare it to Defense of target? If I hit, How do I determine damage...I dont know why, but I couldnt figure that out when reading it today.

Chambers
2011-10-04, 08:15 AM
Is that too mean? He is a dodgey, acrobatty, shoot sound from his mouth, notices everything, actually decent in a fist fight bad guy. Also...I am having a hard time understanding what you add to your attack dice when shooting a blast...do I add Dex + power level of blast and compare it to Defense of target? If I hit, How do I determine damage...I dont know why, but I couldnt figure that out when reading it today.

I have M&M 2E, so the answer may be different, but how attack & damage normally work is something like this.

Goon 1: Imma shoot you with my gun! *bang* (roll d20, add attack bonus. if the total is more than the hero's defense bonus, then it's a hit)
Hero: Ha! Your puny weapon can't harm me! (whenever someone gets hit, that person makes a Toughness saving throw. roll d20, add Toughness bonus. If the Toughness result is higher than the attacker's damage bonus, than the attack does no damage. If the Toughness result is less than the damage bonus, than the attack does damage).

Punching and stuff usually does nonlethal damage, while bullets and other things do lethal.

There's no damage roll. Each time you're damaged you make a mark under either Bruised or Injured (nonlethal or lethal). Each instance of damage is a penalty to future Toughness saves, so once you're hurt it's harder to resist damage. There are other wound types, like being staggered, disabled, or unconscious, but that's the basic idea.

Tengu_temp
2011-10-04, 09:53 AM
On the other hand, Dexterity/Agility as two seperate traits can go die in a fire, and there's no good reason for Fighting to only apply to close combat and parrying.

I actually prefer the 3e stat system. In 2e, the only point of getting stats other than constitution (and strength for melee characters) is when you want skill modifiers above the cap, because it's just easier to buy out the component parts rather than stat itself. In 3e, all stats except for presence give at least the same bang for your buck as buying their component parts, which encourages you to have high ability scores (which is what heroes should have, after all), and at the same time the skill cap is on total modifier, not ranks, so you can be extremely good at a skill without buying inhuman an ability score in the corresponding stat.

late for dinner
2011-10-04, 01:31 PM
What about Blasts though...What is the damage bonus for my Sound blast that I put 7 ranks into? Is it 7?

The Reverend
2011-10-04, 03:53 PM
I dont know about system wise, but I love GodLike for its fluff. If nothing else its worth rrading fot game ideas. Superheros start appearing during WW2. There are a few supermen that ate incredibly powerful, but most have moderate powers and a bullet will still kill them just as easily. Some have one off powers. Jewish girl that when scared turns all metal into glass in a half mile range, guy who can make rain when doing a faux Indian rain dance, wild bill who can operate multiple guns at once. Etc. Its oriented more to the non-superman end of the scale, but the fluff is great.

Knaight
2011-10-04, 11:56 PM
I dont know about system wise, but I love GodLike for its fluff. If nothing else its worth rrading fot game ideas. Superheros start appearing during WW2. There are a few supermen that ate incredibly powerful, but most have moderate powers and a bullet will still kill them just as easily. Some have one off powers. Jewish girl that when scared turns all metal into glass in a half mile range, guy who can make rain when doing a faux Indian rain dance, wild bill who can operate multiple guns at once. Etc. Its oriented more to the non-superman end of the scale, but the fluff is great.

Wild Talents has similar crunch, and a much more generic assumed setting, that works basically everywhere.

PhallicWarrior
2011-10-05, 12:46 AM
What about Blasts though...What is the damage bonus for my Sound blast that I put 7 ranks into? Is it 7?

Yes, the damage bonus for an attack is equal to the number of ranks you bought in it. Since it's a damage effect, the Toughness save DC is 15+7=22.

late for dinner
2011-10-05, 10:58 AM
Sweet and is the attack bonus for my blast 7 as well? So (Dex+Rank=Attack bonus)

Beleriphon
2011-10-05, 03:43 PM
Sweet and is the attack bonus for my blast 7 as well? So (Dex+Rank=Attack bonus)

That's not quite right.

Ranged Attack Bonus is composed of:

Dexterity Score + Ranged Attack Skill + Relevant Advantages.

For example:

Valhallen, the God of Rock has the following:
Epic Guitar Solo - Ranged Damage 10 (20pp)
Dexterity 4 (8pp)
Ranged Attack (Guitars) 6 (3pp)

Thus with Epic Guitar Solo he gets +10 to his attacks, and if he hits provokes DC 25 (15 Base + 10 Ranks) Toughness resistance checks. With any other attack, say a thrown brick, he gets a +4 attack bonus and whatever the GM deems the brick worth for damage (DC 15 + brick).

You can read about how damage works in the Powers chapter under Damage, and again I think in the Combat section.

late for dinner
2011-10-05, 04:45 PM
Thank you for the clarification. The way you put it made so much more sense than the book...so Power Ranking is Damage and Ranged attack + Ranged attack specialty + Dex = Attack bonus.

Beleriphon
2011-10-05, 04:58 PM
Thank you for the clarification. The way you put it made so much more sense than the book...so Power Ranking is Damage and Ranged attack + Ranged attack specialty + Dex = Attack bonus.

You have the gist of it, if you read the Ranged Attack entry in the Skills chapter it explains things better.

Basically Ranged Attack is a skill that can be used untrained, and Dexterity is its relevant ability score. There are a whole bunch of things that can apply to Ranged Attack bonus, but Dexterity and the skill are the main ones.

Friv
2011-10-05, 05:47 PM
I actually prefer the 3e stat system. In 2e, the only point of getting stats other than constitution (and strength for melee characters) is when you want skill modifiers above the cap, because it's just easier to buy out the component parts rather than stat itself. In 3e, all stats except for presence give at least the same bang for your buck as buying their component parts, which encourages you to have high ability scores (which is what heroes should have, after all), and at the same time the skill cap is on total modifier, not ranks, so you can be extremely good at a skill without buying inhuman an ability score in the corresponding stat.

While all of that is true, none of it address my actual complaints, those being that the distinctions between Agility and Dexterity and Fighting are arbitrary and dumb, and there's no reason for all three to exist.

Beleriphon
2011-10-05, 09:56 PM
While all of that is true, none of it address my actual complaints, those being that the distinctions between Agility and Dexterity and Fighting are arbitrary and dumb, and there's no reason for all three to exist.

Its mostly to make the attack bonuses skills (fighting and dexterity are basically the same as the old melee attack bonus, and ranged attack bonus plus a bit extra). People actually use to complain that Dexterity in 2E was too good, and covered too many functions, so thus was broken into Agility and Dexterity, and Fighting was added.

You'll note that there is no separately purchasable Attack Bonus, only the 2-for-1 skills and Advantages, and of course Dexterity and Fighting.

Knaight
2011-10-05, 10:35 PM
While all of that is true, none of it address my actual complaints, those being that the distinctions between Agility and Dexterity and Fighting are arbitrary and dumb, and there's no reason for all three to exist.

Agility and Dexterity, maybe. But fighting? Combat skill and sheer agility are somewhat related, but not to the point where treating them as synonymous is reasonable at all.

Optimator
2011-10-05, 11:55 PM
I love M&M 2nd edition. I like having the mechanics similar (in a lot of ways, identical)to the d20 system. The Hero system is probably a better system overall though. Stay the hell away from Heroes Unlimited.

Knaight
2011-10-06, 12:09 AM
I love M&M 2nd edition. I like having the mechanics similar (in a lot of ways, identical)to the d20 system. The Hero system is probably a better system overall though. Stay the hell away from Heroes Unlimited.

I suspect that opinion on d20 is the biggest indicator for what edition of M&M people like. Abandoning the d20 attributes is, in my opinion, the best thing M&M ever did.

The_Snark
2011-10-06, 12:25 AM
Its mostly to make the attack bonuses skills (fighting and dexterity are basically the same as the old melee attack bonus, and ranged attack bonus plus a bit extra). People actually use to complain that Dexterity in 2E was too good, and covered too many functions, so thus was broken into Agility and Dexterity, and Fighting was added.

Dexterity was too good? :smallconfused: Dexterity made you better at, let's see... Reflex saves, initiative checks, and a few skills (Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, Stealth). If you wanted to max out every one of those things, you could break even by buying Dexterity (as opposed to buying up your Reflex save, taking Improved Initiative, and ranks in Acrobatics/Sleight of Hand/Stealth) and get a little boost on the rare occasion your GM called for a Dexterity check. But if you didn't care about even one of those things, it was usually cheaper to leave Dexterity alone and just buy what you wanted independently.

Why was Dexterity considered too good? If anything, I'd say Constitution was the "best" ability, since it automatically paid for itself by boosting both Fortitude and Toughness (two things that everybody wants at least a little of) and then went on to enhance your recovery checks; but it wasn't exactly game-breaking, and 3E seems to have left it alone.

Beleriphon
2011-10-06, 09:10 AM
Why was Dexterity considered too good? If anything, I'd say Constitution was the "best" ability, since it automatically paid for itself by boosting both Fortitude and Toughness (two things that everybody wants at least a little of) and then went on to enhance your recovery checks; but it wasn't exactly game-breaking, and 3E seems to have left it alone.

Mostly a function of a cheap way to get a really high reflex save combined with a few other items (notably Evasion 2). The basic idea was that Dexterity in and of itself was that it applied to too many items, as opposed to the other scores.