Splitting the Druid in half..?

[Kenneth]

SO I was just wondering.


If i took the druid and stripped it of its Wild Shaping abilities. but leaving everything else intact. ( I switched the level at which rangers and druid get their animal companions)

Would that do any of the following

1) push the druid closer to 'tier 3'
2) put teh class based on wild shaping at or near 'tier 3'?
3) destroy the druids ability to do much of anything?
4) make the new WIld Shaping class basically useless?
5) anything else to upset the game?

Side note: I am thinking of giving the new wildshaping class spells as well similar to the paladins progression. would that be a hindrance, a boon, or tipping its power too much to get out of the 'tier 3' range?

[mootoall]

SO I was just wondering.


If i took the druid and stripped it of its Wild Shaping abilities. but leaving everything else intact. ( I switched the level at which rangers and druid get their animal companions)

Would that do any of the following

1) push the druid closer to 'tier 3'
2) put teh class based on wild shaping at or near 'tier 3'?
3) destroy the druids ability to do much of anything?
4) make the new WIld Shaping class basically useless?
5) anything else to upset the game?

Side note: I am thinking of giving the new wildshaping class spells as well similar to the paladins progression. would that be a hindrance, a boon, or tipping its power too much to get out of the 'tier 3' range?

Lolno. The Druid spell list is fantastic. Getting rid of Wildshape leaves it at T1.

[Hiro Protagonest]

SO I was just wondering.


If i took the druid and stripped it of its Wild Shaping abilities. but leaving everything else intact. ( I switched the level at which rangers and druid get their animal companions)

Would that do any of the following

1) push the druid closer to 'tier 3'
2) put teh class based on wild shaping at or near 'tier 3'?
3) destroy the druids ability to do much of anything?
4) make the new WIld Shaping class basically useless?
5) anything else to upset the game?

Side note: I am thinking of giving the new wildshaping class spells as well similar to the paladins progression. would that be a hindrance, a boon, or tipping its power too much to get out of the 'tier 3' range?

Do clerics have wild shape? Core cleric is tier 1, CoDzilla was created to show the absurdity of core-only. Core-only doesn't give you use of your turn undead attempts (except, you know, to turn undead, but when does that come up?), so it's basically just spellcasting.

[ericgrau]

The druid spell list is significantly worse than the wizard spell list though. It gets less goodies and some of the ones it does get are 1 spell level behind. Even though they're both divine, clerics have some martial buffs that druids don't to compensate for wildshape.

[NineThePuma]

The non-Casting Druid is about Tier 3 too.

[NNescio]

Druid spellcasting is T1. Wildshape is T3. Animal Companion is Tier 5.

Each.

By themselves.

[Laura Eternata]

The druid would still be a tier one. Even without Wild Shape, it still has 9th level prepared casting, which puts it in the tier 1 zone.

The shapeshifter depends on the spell list you give it. It'll probably end up being a tier 3 or 4, but it's impossible to say without seeing the class. What saves/BAB would it get? Same as the Druid? And would it get any additional class features?

[Sith_Happens]

Darn it, the thread title had me really excited for a second, but then I open it and it's just about houseruling.:smallwink:

As far as a "new wildshaping class," there's already a ranger variant in Unearthed Arcana that trades Combat Style for Wild Shape.

[Kenneth]

I was thinking of giving it spell casting of a limited nature both in spells per day [ala paladin/ranger] and spells known [ala sorcerer], though this class would not be spontaneous, something that i feel belongs solely to the sorcerer.

I was thinking of givign it saves along these lines good fort and ref, bad will.

prob keep teh same BAB as druids get.


apart form that I do not bleive it needs anymore class features. Wild Shaping is in my opnion crazily powerful, so that along with some spells would be perfect I think for tier 3.


also I realize that this class is basically the wildshape variant ranger on second glance so...

[candycorn]

Recommendation: Slap on ranger spellcasting for the wildshaper.

3/4 BAB, wildshape (as druid), ranger spellcasting. That's a solid Tier 3.
Likely give it 4+int skills, and make them rangerish.

Good Fort and Reflex sounds about right. I'd possibly consider giving it a floating feat at level 10 and 15, selected each time the ranger enters wildshape, and only valid for wildshape feats and feats which enhance natural attacks.

[erikun]

If i took the druid and stripped it of its Wild Shaping abilities. but leaving everything else intact. ( I switched the level at which rangers and druid get their animal companions)
There is a Ranger variant that removes the Ranger spellcasting (I think) and combat style in exchange for Wildshape for medium-sized and small-sized creatures only. It still works out to be T3 anyways.


this class would not be spontaneous, something that i feel belongs solely to the sorcerer.
Bard, Favored Soul, Spirit Shaman, Warmage, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and Warlock (sorta) are all spontaneous casters as well. For that matter, I think Spirit Shaman is considered T1 anyways despite their limited spells known. (Warmage/Beguiler/Dread Necro with Rainbow Servant is T1 as well, although for other reasons.)


Recommendation: Slap on ranger spellcasting for the wildshaper.

3/4 BAB, wildshape (as druid), ranger spellcasting. That's a solid Tier 3.
Likely give it 4+int skills, and make them rangerish.

Good Fort and Reflex sounds about right. I'd possibly consider giving it a floating feat at level 10 and 15, selected each time the ranger enters wildshape, and only valid for wildshape feats and feats which enhance natural attacks.
I think this would work out really well. You might actually end up in high T3, but this class could do some things the WS Ranger cannot, while the WS Ranger still has better BAB/HP/skills. There won't be a lot of difference between the two, but there will be some.

Druid spellcasting, even without Wildshape or the Animal Companion, is still T1 level. It's not quite as problematic, as you don't get a free Warrior to follow you around (Animal Companion) or free combat buffs whenever you want it (Wildshape), but you still have all the basic advantages of the Cleric, along with better battlefield control and superior summoning.

[Dalek-K]

How about...

Give the Ranger Wildshape (as druid) and spells/day and spells known (impromptu) as Bard. Give the ranger the spells from the Druid (up to 6th level). Keep everything else the ranger normally gets (or use the Ranger of the Sublime way that someone on here created).

Give the druid the wizard BAB and monk's Wis to AC. They still get an animal companion as normal. Let the druid be an impromptu caster also with spells known as Sorcerer and spells/day as Sorcerer (9th level spells). Take away wildshape but the Druid automatically gains Summon Nature Ally (1 through 9 or whatever the last one is) as a spell that doesn't count against your spells known.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Not to toot my own horn or anything, but I spent some time working on a wild-shape based class similar to what you're discussing: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213031.

As for the spellcasting druid, drop the BAB to poor and lower the HD to d6 and call it a day. You're still tougher than a wizard, but you'll never be a warrior. Keep the animal companion, but give it ability progression like a familiar.

[Incanur]

The lack of the animal companion would make druids pretty meh before level three. But summons stay great and the class has some incredible spells. (Boreal wind and control winds devastate cities.)

[Onikani]

Druid spellcasting is T1. Wildshape is T3. Animal Companion is Tier 5.

Each.

By themselves.



<snip>...For that matter, I think Spirit Shaman is considered T1 anyways despite their limited spells known....

I'm not sure which Tier SS's are considered, but at every level they have 1 fewer spell known than a druid would, but can cast significantly more of them.

For example at tenth level a druid can know (ignoring 0 level and bonuses):
4,4,3,3,2

A spirit Shaman can know:
3,3,2,2,1

Since most druids probably prepare the same spell twice at each level, this probably evens out sometimes.


BUT the interesting part is the available per day. For a druid it is the same as spells known (for obvious reasons):
4,4,3,3,2

While the Spirit Shaman can cast:
6,6,6,5,3


If druid is Tier 1 just from spellcasting, I can't imagine the SS being far behind...

[Leon]

SO I was just wondering.


If i took the druid and stripped it of its Wild Shaping abilities. but leaving everything else intact. ( I switched the level at which rangers and druid get their animal companions)



i Don't care for vague tier rankings but A Druid is a Full Caster and the Wildshape / Pet are just icing on a very good cake - like all good cake they are good without icing (and often icing is what takes a good cake over the top)

[erikun]

I'm not sure which Tier SS's are considered, but at every level they have 1 fewer spell known than a druid would, but can cast significantly more of them.

For example at tenth level a druid can know (ignoring 0 level and bonuses):
4,4,3,3,2

A spirit Shaman can know:
3,3,2,2,1

Since most druids probably prepare the same spell twice at each level, this probably evens out sometimes.


BUT the interesting part is the available per day. For a druid it is the same as spells known (for obvious reasons):
4,4,3,3,2

While the Spirit Shaman can cast:
6,6,6,5,3

If druid is Tier 1 just from spellcasting, I can't imagine the SS being far behind...
Looking over the class, I see why a Spirit Shaman would be considered Tier 1 now.

Much like the Sorcerer, they have a limited number of spells memorized each day (3,3,2,2,1) but a larger number of spells they can cast (6,6,6,5,3). Also like the Sorcerer, they aren't limited by spell slots, and can spontaneously cast any spell memorized.

However, unlike the Sorcerer, they aren't limited in what spells they know. Every day, they may swap out all their memorized spells for any other spells on the Druid list. So basically, they get the benefits of both a Wizard and a Sorcerer: They can freely swap out spells needed each day, but can pick and choose what spell the situation requires rather than spending spell slots on potentially useless spells.

That's definitely T1 versatility there, as long as the spell list is good. (It's the Druid spell list, so no worries there.) Heck, I think the Spirit Shaman might fit in the OP's desired no-Wildshape, no-Companion Druid very well, as it has a lot of interesting spirit-flavored abilities but nothing that stands out as overpowering.

I'd never paid must attention to the class, thinking it was similar to the Oriental Adventures Shaman.