Those 9 Sides to the Conflict . . .

[WickedWizard17]

WARNING: DON'T READ IF NOT UP TO DATE!

Okay, so the 3 Fiends mentioned there being, like, nine sides to this fight for the gates, right?
Well, let's go over who we think some of those sides might be . . .

1. The Order themselves and Azure City folk
2. Team Evil
3. The Fiends
4. The Linear Guild
5. Archfiends

Now . . . let the speculation begin! I had the crazy thought that maybe Pompey and Leeky Windstaff, Nale's replacement LG members from way back in Cliffport, might somehow be involved in this too?

Share thy thoughts!

[ORione]

WARNING: DON'T READ IF NOT UP TO DATE!

Okay, so the 3 Fiends mentioned there being, like, nine sides to this fight for the gates, right?


It was the demon cockroaches.

And they said it when Redcloak was implying that Xykon is a separate side from Redcloak and the hobgoblins.

If Team Evil counts as two different sides, I'd split the Order and Azure City - their goals are related, but not quite the same.

[Kish]

"The Fiends" and "Archfiends" as two separate sides in the conflict over the Gates? :smallconfused:

[Aurenthal]

Why are you counting the Order and Azure City folk as one side?

Also, RedCloak seems a different side than TeamEvil.

Should include the elves, and goblinfolk

[Gift Jeraff]

I would just find my post from an earlier incarnation of this thread, but eh. Some of my thoughts have changed.

*Volume 4 Commentary Spoilers*

The sides I'm willing to bet money on:
-Tarquin & Friends: Tarquin knows something about Girard, someone you'd presume is hard to find. We also know from the commentary that a previously unknown contender for the Gates will be revealed in the 5th (current) arc/book. Seeing as how we already knew Girard would be involved in the Gates (we're just not sure if he's his own side or not), I see Tarquin being who the Giant was referring to. Especially since Girard's appearance was a no-brainer, whereas we weren't even sure if Elan's father was little more than backstory for Nale.

-The Elves: There's been an open rift in their land for almost 30 years, and they're helping to liberate a city with a huge rift in the sky. Add in the fact that the Team Peregrine Commander strikes me as a villain, and I have my suspicions about these guys. Also, we know Lirian had a small army of elves--were they in anyway tied to the Elven Lands' government, akin to the Sapphire Guard working for the Lord of the City? (Yes, I know the SG was a state secret.)

-Girard['s Allies]: We know too little.

Sides I'm not too sure on:
-Tsukiko: She's basically setting herself up to be rejected by Xykon, causing her to hate the living and the dead. Thus I can see her becoming a nihilistic "undo all creation" type of villain, which we seem to be lacking. Major problems with her being her own side is that she doesn't seem to know anything about the Gates or the Snarl, but does seem to be reverse-engineering Xykon's half of the ritual. We also don't know if Xykon's simply taking advantage of her feelings (thus, he won't break her heart/lust until she's useless to him). Whether the ritual can be done solo is another matter.

-The Dark One: He seems to care more about the Plan than the well-being of the goblinoids, whereas the commentary confirms that Redcloak regards long-term prosperity above and beyond the Plan. I used to be opposed to any god being their own side due to them being unable to directly affect the mortal plane. However, the Directors can't either (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html). So a separate goblin could act as a representative for the Dark One, similar to how Sabine and Qarr are manipulating one side while working for another.

-The Thieves' Guild: I doubt it. But there is still the unresolved Ian & Geoff subplot. Not everything has to tie neatly into a single thread, yes, but you never know.

-The Azurites: I'm not seeing it. Their leader is part of the Sapphire Guard, and so is the leader of the Resistance, so they know full well what's at stake. And we already had "paladin as an antagonist," why rehash it? Plus, it'd completely invalidate the characters of Hinjo (who's supposed to show what a rational paladin is like), O-Chul (Word of God the example of what a paladin should be), and Lien ("Good, not Dumb"). Unless we're suggesting that the OOTS would be in the wrong, which seems like an odd twist for the story.

-The World-within-the-World: We know far too little about this.

I'm also a fan of one of the sides being a joke character, such as the roaches, the flumphs, the lawyers, or the Farmers of the Dirt. :smalltongue:

[Ajadea]

My personal take on it is that, of the 9 sides, 5 are pretty much set in stone


The Order of the Stick + Sapphire Guard/Azure City
Xykon, Tsukiko, and their followers
Redcloak, the Dark One, and Gobbotopia
The Archfiends [Lee/Nero/Cedrik]
The Linear Guild


And there are a host of possible sides:

Tarquin, possibly with the rest of his former adventuring party and/or the Empire of Blood
The elves, primarily Team Peregrine
The dwarves - isn't Kraagor's gate in their lands, or close to it? If it is, they're prime candidates for getting involved.
Azure City - their priorities may be different from the OotS
The Dark One - similarly, his priorities may be different than Redcloak's
Girard and his pals
Serini and her pals (may or may not be part of Girard's side)
The Oracle of the Sunken Valley - I'm not sure if he could be a side, but I'm not going to rule it out
Some as yet unknown force - This is always a possibility, really.

[Zevox]

Yakko: "It's that time again!"
Dot: "To make fun of the Disney Channel?"
Wakko: "To make the Fox censors cry?"
Yakko: "No, it's time to copy and paste a standard response to a thread that pops up every other month or so."
Dot: "...uh, is there supposed to be a joke in here Yakko?"
Yakko: "Dunno. Maybe the guy writing this is just bad at comedy or something."


Anyway, I'll just follow my now-standard procedure of doing a quick forum search for the last thread on this topic and copy & pasting my answer from it, since nothing has changed since then:

Sides I think are definite:
- The Order of the Stick
- Xykon, Tsukiko, their undead. (And probably MitD, for now.)
- Redcloak, Jirix, the Goblins, their undead.
- The Linear Guild
- The IFCC

Sides I think are possible:
- Tarquin/The Empire of Blood (Need to get involved in the Gate struggle to count.)
- The Sapphire Guard (Unclear whether they form one "team good" side with the Order or not.)
- Girard and friends (If V's speculation is correct.)
- The Order of the Scribble (Seems unlikely though since they'd mostly just be on the Order's side, except perhaps Girard. But in any event only two of them are left, one of which may be his own "side," as mentioned above.)
- The Elves (Currently trying to help liberate Azure City, where one rift is, and Lirian's rift is located in their lands, so it's possible they'll become involved.)
- The Dwarves (The last Gate is probably located near their lands, so them becoming involved is a possibility.)

"Sides" I've seen suggested which I reject due to them not being active in the struggle over the Gates and seeming unlikely to ever become involved:
- The Gods
- The Snarl
- The Oracle/Tiamat/Dragons
- The Greysky City Thieves' Guild
Zevox

[Laws of Chaos]

Here's how I see things.

1. Order of the Stick
2. Team Evil
3. IFCC
These are pretty obvious that they are looking for them.

4. Linear Guild
5. Sapphire Guard
6. The Dark One and the goblin races
7. Order of the Scribble (the surviving members at least)
8. Tarquin and Friends (He seems to know much more than he's letting on)
These are groups which have stated or shown interest

The ninth group, I can't think of. No other group or individual really fits into what I'd expect to be looking or investing interest in. Unless you count the Snarl. But I would see that as a copout.

[RMS Oceanic]

I have eight pegged out in my mind at the moment

Order of the Stick
Azure City/Island
Girard (and Serini?)
Xykon & Team Evil
Redcloak and Gobbotopia
The Linear Guild
The IFCC
Tarquin & Allies

As for the ninth, I lean towards either the Greysky Thieves guild or Ian Starshine.

[WickedWizard17]

. . . It was the demon cockroaches who said that? Crud. Oh well. I'm of the school who thinks of the Azurites and the OotS as being on the same side, because at this point Hinjo and his people are backing up the OotS, not the other way around. And I suppose splitting up Team Evil between Xykon and Redcloak is a good idea.

It'd be really odd if Tarquin DIDN'T know about the gates. But I don't see Ian Starshine fitting into the picture. I think he was just to give Haley yet more character development (gotta love it) outside her love for Elan.

It might be possible to split the Linear Guild too, since Sabine is really on the IFCC's side. Or is she? Although the Archfiends mentioned the LG being their pawns, so maybe they're not really their own side and can be lumped in with the IFCC, because really, how hard would it be for a few Lords of the Lower Planes to manipulate NALE? Sabine probably did it a lot, although she is indeed genuinely in love with Nale after all this time.

[Laws of Chaos]

. . . It might be possible to split the Linear Guild too, since Sabine is really on the IFCC's side. Or is she? Although the Archfiends mentioned the LG being their pawns, so maybe they're not really their own side and can be lumped in with the IFCC, because really, how hard would it be for a few Lords of the Lower Planes to manipulate NALE? Sabine probably did it a lot, although she is indeed genuinely in love with Nale after all this time.

Nale found out about the gates and http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0378.html here, and told Sabine here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html So while yes, Sabine is working with the IFCC in their plan for the gates, I think it's clear that Nale wants to use them in his plans against Elan.

[ORione]

. . . It was the demon cockroaches who said that? Crud. Oh well. I'm of the school who thinks of the Azurites and the OotS as being on the same side, because at this point Hinjo and his people are backing up the OotS, not the other way around. And I suppose splitting up Team Evil between Xykon and Redcloak is a good idea.


Well, Redcloak and the goblinoids are backing up Xykon, too.

One thing we should keep in mind is that there's still Kraagor's gate. One side may be from that area.

[Laws of Chaos]

Well, Redcloak and the goblinoids are backing up Xykon, too.

One thing we should keep in mind is that there's still Kraagor's gate. One side may be from that area.

I agree, I consider Redcloak to be a part of both plans. He's working with Xykon to open the gates, but using him to achieve the goals of the Dark One. I also see Sabine as both in the Linear Guilds plan and the IFCC's plans. Sorta why I keep it simple and go with groups, rather than listing individuals who work together. Keeps things in order for me better.

I think your right about Kraagor's gate too. We still have yet to see what if anything is out there! I'm betting it's the descendants of Baron Pineapple!

[Kish]

It'd be really odd if Tarquin DIDN'T know about the gates.
Because he's just too cool not to know every secret in the world where he exists?

[Holy_Knight]

-Tsukiko: She's basically setting herself up to be rejected by Xykon, causing her to hate the living and the dead. Thus I can see her becoming a nihilistic "undo all creation" type of villain, which we seem to be lacking. Major problems with her being her own side is that she doesn't seem to know anything about the Gates or the Snarl, but does seem to be reverse-engineering Xykon's half of the ritual. We also don't know if Xykon's simply taking advantage of her feelings (thus, he won't break her heart/lust until she's useless to him). Whether the ritual can be done solo is another matter.

I don't see Tsukiko becoming a separate side. She's both effective and completely loyal to Xykon, making it very unlikely that she'd turn on him or he would dispose of her. His lack of interest in her affections may not even matter--after all, he rebuffed her on their very first meeting ("I'm not one of those disgusting biophiliacs!") and that didn't stop her from becoming completely devoted to him.


-The Thieves' Guild: I doubt it. But there is still the unresolved Ian & Geoff subplot. Not everything has to tie neatly into a single thread, yes, but you never know.

I doubt it too. To be honest I'm sort of surprised people are considering them as a candidate. They may have unresolved plot threads around them, but the ultimate fate of all creation just seems a little too big for them, don't you think?

[The Pilgrim]

Looks like the Red Knight is Requesting Lodging... so, serving a ration of copy&paste!



1 Oots
2 Xykon
3 Redcloak
4 Dark One
5 IFCC
6 Nale
7 The Gods
8 Girad and Co.
9 Rift dweller(s)

Explanation:

Side 1 is quite straightforward. The OOTS are the pros of this story.

Sides 2 and 3: We know that Xykon and Redcloak have separate goals: Redcloak = Dark One's Plan, Xykon = World Domination out of boredom. Redcloak knows that Xykon can't achieve his goals because the Snarl is not controlable, while Xykon doesn't gives a f. about the goblins.

Side 4: Wild speculation, but the Dark One is an evil deity after all. I bet his numer 1 priority is just gain personal power and trump the other gods, the well-being of the goblinoids being a distant second. This "side" is, thought, my most feeble speculation, and can possibly be assimilated with Redcloak's, his place on this list being taken later in the comic by some new side showing up around Kraagor's

Sides 5 and 6: While the Linear Guild is really just a pawn of the IFCC, and Sabine knows it, Nale has his own plans and, should he know his Guild is just a puppet, would never accept to submit to it because, among other things, his Ego.

Side 7: They are Gods, they can't be trusted. Come on, they created whole races of sentient beings just to be used as XP-fodder for their low-level Clerics. So, is the Snarl really what they told to the Scribbers? or are they hidding something else? The Shappire Guard would be part of this side as they just do the God's dirthy work without questioning. Lirian and Dorukan also seemed to buy the story. But as for the Chaotic members of the Order of the Scribble...

Side 8: Girard being distrustful for nature, he should have already figured out that something is wrong with the Snarl story. Might be still protecting the Gate because he doesn't want the World destroyed, but might as well be plotting something to uncover the truth. The halfling chick should probably be with him.

Side 9: Snarl or not, something must dwell in that Planet-inside-the-Planet.

[k_bukie]

Here's what I see, from most obvious to least obvious:

1. OOTS - Speaks for itself. The protagonists of the entire story.
2. Xykon - He's really out for himself, when it comes down to it. Everything else is just an asset or a hindrance to him to get ultimate power and control.
3. Redcloak, the Dark One and the Goblins - Mostly based on Start of Darkness material, the Goblins, and primarily Redcloak, are acting with separate goals in mind from Xykon. That's enough to make "Team Evil" two distinct factions.
4. Nale and the Linear Guild - Likely separate from the IFCC, in that Nale now knows about the gates and is acting independently of the IFCC's wishes. Sabine might not be, but Nale is the leader here.
5. The IFCC - Acting within several factions by manipulating V, Sabine and Qarr, they have their own goals in mind.
6. Tarquin and the Blood, Sweat and Tears - Doesn't necessarily know about the Gates yet, but reputedly knows about Girard, and likely has his own motives about that information.
7. Hinjo and the Azure - Likely goals in alignment with the OOTS, but not explicitly part of the OOTS.
8. Girard? - Not much known about him except that his goals vastly differed from Soon's, so he's at the least divergent from the Azure folk.
9. Snarl/Another World/Elves - The Snarl is its own being, but not much is known about it aside from crayon drawings and rumors, since it's never really been seen in-comic. There's even less known about the Elves or the Other World.

[Procyonpi]

First of all, why, specifically, does eveyone think it was specified that the nine sides were in the conflict over the gates, as opposed the conflict in general? did I miss something?

To me, what brings a side together is a common motive. To that end, there are four overarching sides we've been introduced to so far with 4 distinct groups of motives:
1: The "good guys," who want to prevent the gates from falling into the hands of evil.
2. Team Evil, which wants to use the gates as blackmail to take over the world.
3. The IFCC, which wants to use the gates to bring down the gods of good (presumably)
4. Villains who either don't know or care about the gates, and want regional domination.
and possibly
5. The Snarl

There are some subdivisions in all the teams.
The Good guys seems to break down:
1. The OotS: Their primary motive is stopping team evil from getting the gates, all else is secondary.
2. Azure City: also wants to regain city.
3. Elves: Their exact motives are questionable, but probably closer to the Order than the Azurites, imo.
4. Any other remaining scribble allies.

Team Evil has two obvious teams and a third potential:
1. Xykon wants to rule the world.
2. Redcloak wants a better world for Goblins
3. Who knows what roll the MitD will play.

The IFCC pretty much has only two factions:
1. The IFCC, who are in on the plans for the gate, and
2. The Linear Guild, who are basically just pursuing Nale's quest for power and petty revenge.

Other Villain teams include:
1. Kotuba's faction, which wanted control of the Azurites (defeated)
2. The thieves's guild
3. Tarquin's party, that wants to rule the southern part of the Western continent.
Of these, I suspect that Tarquin the the most likely to get embroiled with the greater plot involving the gates.

So, as you can see, if you count each of the sub-factions, we're already up to 13, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are some that haven't been hinted at yet. It all depends on how you define a team. I sorta wonder if Rich had 9 distinct teams he was thinking of, or just started counting and got at least 9 factions.

[ORione]

Here's what I see, from most obvious to least obvious:


I agree with this, except the last one. I suspect that there's a side we haven't met yet related to Kraagor's gate.

[veti]

The Good guys seems to break down:
1. The OotS: Their primary motive is stopping team evil from getting the gates, all else is secondary.
2. Azure City: also wants to regain city.
3. Elves: Their exact motives are questionable, but probably closer to the Order than the Azurites, imo.
4. Any other remaining scribble allies.

I would speculate that there are factions within the elven government (whatever form it might take) that are deeply concerned with saving the world from the Rifts, and other factions that are more focused on saving themselves from the inevitable expansionism of Gobbotopia. I doubt if you can count "the elves" as a single side.


Team Evil has two obvious teams and a third potential:
1. Xykon wants to rule the world.
2. Redcloak wants a better world for Goblins
3. Who knows what roll the MitD will play.

:mitd: "What gate?"

I don't think you can call the MitD a faction, nor is it part of Team Evil. Maybe it's part of Redcloak's equipment list... But it has no discernable goals of its own, all it ever does is to react.


It all depends on how you define a team. I sorta wonder if Rich had 9 distinct teams he was thinking of, or just started counting and got at least 9 factions.

Possibly. Or possibly the roach just isn't as well informed as we're assuming it is. Maybe the number nine is just arbitrary. In fact, it's hard to see how the definition of a "side" could be anything other than pretty arbitrary.

Anyway, I don't believe anyone's mentioned Tiamat and the Oracle yet. Or any of the various pantheons of gods. Just mentionin'.

[Gift Jeraff]

First of all, why, specifically, does eveyone think it was specified that the nine sides were in the conflict over the gates, as opposed the conflict in general? did I miss something?It's implied in the commentary for DStP:
In the next volume of The Order of the Stick, readers will meet, for the very first time, one of the "nine sides" mentioned by the demon roach in strip #548. That's right, there will be at least one entirely as-yet-unrevealed player in the struggle for the Gates who will be...well, revealed.(emphasis mine)

[Talvereaux]

I follow the opinion the Sapphire Guard and OOTS are on the same side. The goblinoids and Xykon are separate sides considering their actual interests and motives are completely different. Their alliance is tenuous at best, especially now that Xykon is losing his ability to trust Redcloak, and is likely having Tsukiko succeed him entirely.

Also, (SOD stuff!)
their alliance was founded entirely on deceit. Redcloak lied to Xykon about what 'controlling the Gates' actually means. He told Xykon it will get him a pet Cthulhu to follow his beck and call, even though he knows(?) the Snarl can not actually be controlled, and will probably unmake them outright, which he doesn't really mind.

Meanwhile, the Sapphire Guard and Order have nothing to hide from one another as far as we know. Both seek the gates for the same reason, to prevent the world from being destroyed by falling into the wrong hands. Neither has any foreseeable reason to stab the other in the back, or ever come to a conflict of interests regarding the Gates. To qualify as different 'sides' in the conflict, they need an actual sense of opposition rather than just being distinct from one another. They're different factions, yes, but they are not opposed by each other in the conflict for the gates.

[Zevox]

It's implied in the commentary for DStP:(emphasis mine)
It's also implied in the original comic the "nine sides" comment comes from, since Redcloak was discussing how he and Xykon are not necessarily on the same side with regards to their final goals (i.e. what to do with the Gates) when the Roaches made their remarks.

I'd also wonder what "conflict in general" Procyonpi would think the Roaches were referring to if not the one over Gates, since that's the entire main plot of the comic.

Zevox

[Procyonpi]

I'd also wonder what "conflict in general" Procyonpi would think the Roaches were referring to if not the one over Gates, since that's the entire main plot of the comic.

A faction doesn't have to have any plans for the gates to have a major effect on the greater conflict surrounding their fate.

[WickedWizard17]

Because he's just too cool not to know every secret in the world where he exists?

Yeah, pretty much. :smallwink:

[Zevox]

A faction doesn't have to have any plans for the gates to have a major effect on the greater conflict surrounding their fate.
Perhaps, but that still doesn't make them involved in the conflict, it would only mean they indirectly affected it.

Zevox

[Procyonpi]

Perhaps, but that still doesn't make them involved in the conflict, it would only mean they indirectly affected it.

Zevox

You see, I really don't think that Rich has said anything that definitive. I don't think not have plans for the gate rules a faction out from being a "side" if they have a major effect on the story. And I own and have re-read the commentary in DStP.

[Zevox]

You see, I really don't think that Rich has said anything that definitive. I don't think not have plans for the gate rules a faction out from being a "side" if they have a major effect on the story. And I own and have re-read the commentary in DStP.
That doesn't square with the original comment from where I'm sitting.

Redcloak (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html): "How many 'sides' are there in this conflict anyway?"

"This conflict" referring to the conflict over the gates, since he was discussing how he and Xykon have different goals there and thus aren't entirely on the same "side." In order to count as a "side" in any given conflict it only makes sense that one has to be actively involved in it, not simply inadvertently influence it. So I do not see how simply having an indirect effect on the conflict could possibly qualify here.

Zevox

[martianmister]

I still think there is a relationship between 9 sides and 9 alignments.

[Kish]

I still think there is a relationship between 9 sides and 9 alignments.
What about between the nine sides and the number of lives Mr. Scruffy has, or the number of days Odin hung in the tree?

[ORione]

I still think there is a relationship between 9 sides and 9 alignments.

Hmm. Xykon would be CE, naturally. LE would probably be Redcloak and the hobgoblins, but then what would the Empire of Blood be? Maybe Redcloak's side is NE, and the Empire is LE. Or maybe Redcloak's side is LE, and the Empire is LN. I know the Empire is Evil, but they are trying to help the Good Guys, so maybe for the purpose of this representation they're LN. That would leave the Fiends to have NE, which makes sense. But then, if the Linear Guild is a separate side, where would they be?

On the Good Guys' sides, I'd say that Azure City is LG, and the Order is NG. Girard's side is likely CG.

This is an interesting idea, and I like it. Thoughts on my analysis?

[martianmister]

What about between the nine sides and the number of lives Mr. Scruffy has, or the number of days Odin hung in the tree?

They are unrelated to the story.

[Epee Assassin]

Hmm. Xykon would be CE, naturally. LE would probably be Redcloak and the hobgoblins, but then what would the Empire of Blood be? Maybe Redcloak's side is NE, and the Empire is LE. Or maybe Redcloak's side is LE, and the Empire is LN. I know the Empire is Evil, but they are trying to help the Good Guys, so maybe for the purpose of this representation they're LN. That would leave the Fiends to have NE, which makes sense. But then, if the Linear Guild is a separate side, where would they be?

On the Good Guys' sides, I'd say that Azure City is LG, and the Order is NG. Girard's side is likely CG.

This is an interesting idea, and I like it. Thoughts on my analysis?

That could be very likely. What about the gods? TN? Redcloak might be LN, he always wants to help with the plan, more so than killing humans. Maybe the Linear Guild is CN, fiends NE, and Tarquin LE. But I think you definitely got the good ones right.

[Gift Jeraff]

How is a group led by someone who is canonically "no less evil than Xykon," has a second-in-command who is a literal manifestation of evil, and are the pawns of 3 archfiends in anyway Chaotic Neutral? :smallconfused:

[Procyonpi]

That doesn't square with the original comment from where I'm sitting.

Redcloak (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html): "How many 'sides' are there in this conflict anyway?"

"This conflict" referring to the conflict over the gates, since he was discussing how he and Xykon have different goals there and thus aren't entirely on the same "side." In order to count as a "side" in any given conflict it only makes sense that one has to be actively involved in it, not simply inadvertently influence it. So I do not see how simply having an indirect effect on the conflict could possibly qualify here.

Zevox

So are you saying that the order wasn't involved in the conflict over the gates before they knew what they were, despite being DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for the destruction of one of them?

[Zevox]

So are you saying that the order wasn't involved in the conflict over the gates before they knew what they were, despite being DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for the destruction of one of them?
Correct, they were not. They had a completely unintentional impact on it, but that's different from being involved in it. At that point the conflict was restricted to Xykon, Redcloak, and the gates' various guardians. The Order stumbled upon the gate accidentally because they were after Xykon for unrelated reasons, and also destroyed it accidentally - heck, that wasn't even collateral damage from their efforts against Xykon, it was just Elan being an idiot. Had Shojo not dispatched Miko in order to enlist their aid they never would have become involved in the actual conflict over the gates, nor ever have cared one bit even about the gate they destroyed.

Zevox

[Epee Assassin]

How is a group led by someone who is canonically "no less evil than Xykon," has a second-in-command who is a literal manifestation of evil, and are the pawns of 3 archfiends in anyway Chaotic Neutral? :smallconfused:

I was just trying to see how all the alignments fit. Also, the archfiends said "All they really do is needless conflict", which seems rather chaotic, and most people say that Xykon has to be CE.

[Kish]

I was just trying to see how all the alignments fit.
And the answer is badly. Sorry to be so harsh, but...yeah. It is plain that Rich is making no efforts to restrict the sides on the conflict to one to an alignment, and the demon roaches even said "at least nine," not "exactly nine," which would be the number of alignments.

[Procyonpi]

Correct, they were not. They had a completely unintentional impact on it, but that's different from being involved in it. At that point the conflict was restricted to Xykon, Redcloak, and the gates' various guardians. The Order stumbled upon the gate accidentally because they were after Xykon for unrelated reasons, and also destroyed it accidentally - heck, that wasn't even collateral damage from their efforts against Xykon, it was just Elan being an idiot. Had Shojo not dispatched Miko in order to enlist their aid they never would have become involved in the actual conflict over the gates, nor ever have cared one bit even about the gate they destroyed.

Zevox

I guess we just have a different definition of "involved," then.



I was just trying to see how all the alignments fit. Also, the archfiends said "All they really do is needless conflict", which seems rather chaotic, and most people say that Xykon has to be CE.

Although I'm not a huge fan of the "nine alignments" theory, I felt compelled to disagree here. Just because their pawns are CE doesn't mean they are. In fact, they want to avoid needless conflict for themselves, they just want it for mortals. I'd say that the IFCC is pretty much textbook Neutral Evil.

[ORione]

Although I'm not a huge fan of the "nine alignments" theory, I felt compelled to disagree here. Just because their pawns are CE doesn't mean they are. In fact, they want to avoid needless conflict for themselves, they just want it for mortals. I'd say that the IFCC is pretty much textbook Neutral Evil.

Yeah, they're united in Evil without regard to Law vs Chaos.