Game Breaking Spell [Pathfinder]

[Gandolfi Feesh]

Can anyone find a loophole in this spell? It's my character that's casting it, but even I feel like it's a game breaker. It's a Dazing Ball Lightning.

Ball Lightning:
You create two globes of lightning that fly in whichever direction you indicate. For every 4 caster levels above 7th, you create an additional globe of lightning (3 globes at 11th, 4 globes at 15th, to the maximum of 5 globes at 19th). These globes fly at a rate of 20 feet per round and have perfect maneuverability. Wind does not affect a flying sphere's course.
If a globe enters a space with a creature, it stops moving for the round and deals 3d6 points of electricity damage to that creature, though a successful Reflex save negates the damage. Creatures wearing metal armor take a –4 penalty on this saving throw.
Each globe moves as long as you actively direct it (it's a move action for you to direct all the spheres created by a single casting of this spell); otherwise they stay at rest. These globes have no mass and cannot push aside unwilling creatures or move solid objects. A ball lightning globe winks out if it exceeds the spell's range.

Dazing Spell:
You can daze creatures with the power of your spells.
Benefit: You can modify a spell to daze a creature damaged by the spell. When a creature takes damage from this spell, they become dazed for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw, a successful save negates the daze effect. If the spell does not allow a save, the target can make a Will save to negate the daze effect. If the spell effect also causes the creature to become dazed, the duration of this metamagic effect is added to the duration of the spell. A dazing spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell's actual level. Spells that do not inflict damage do not benefit from this feat.

Therefore in essence, for 16 rounds I have 4 Balls of Lightning that I can direct as a move action. I don't need to roll to hit, and if it fails its reflex save it's out of action for the next 4 rounds. Combine that with a quickened scorching ray (w/spell perfection) and whatever standard action I desire every round and I'm fully in control.

Any time it only affects the first casting of it, such as the first ray from Scorching Ray, it is explicitly stated in the feat description.
Thoughts from the masses?

[Gotterdammerung]

seems fine to me.

Suped up flaming sphere with a daze effect metamagic'd on.

Its not that much stronger than darkbolt (5th lvl faerun)


And theres plenty of things with enough energy resistance electricity to avoid taking dmg thus avoid the daze effect

plenty of things that make reflex saves

and plenty of things that make reflex saves with evasion

and plenty of things that make reflex saves with improved evasion

and plenty of things with SR to avoid the spell completely

as far as the action economy of getting dmg on a move action,
There is precedent with other spells so its not out of the ordinary

and as far as action economy cheese, this is pretty low powered.

but it all depends on what you want as a DM. If you really hate it, then work with the player to change or remove it.

If you want to teach him a lesson about it. Then build a caster enemy who uses the same exact trick. Possibly even uses it better. And daze 5 members of the party nonstop.

[olentu]

and plenty of things immune to daze


Huh are there really that many new monsters with immunity to daze in pathfinder. I mean Daze was a rather infrequently resisted status effect in 3.5.

[Talentless]

seems fine to me.

Suped up flaming sphere with a daze effect metamagic'd on.

Its not that much stronger than darkbolt (5th lvl faerun)


And theres plenty of things with enough energy resistance electricity to avoid taking dmg thus avoid the daze effect

and plenty of things immune to daze

and plenty of things that make reflex saves

and plenty of things that make reflex saves with evasion

and plenty of things that make reflex saves with improved evasion

and plenty of things with SR to avoid the spell completely

as far as the action economy of getting dmg on a move action,
There is precedent with other spells so its not out of the ordinary

and as far as action economy cheese, this is pretty low powered.

but it all depends on what you want as a DM. If you really hate it, then work with the player to change or remove it.

If you want to teach him a lesson about it. Then build a caster enemy who uses the same exact trick. Possibly even uses it better. And daze 5 members of the party nonstop.

Oh, and another thing.

If the creature makes the reflex save, they don't get dazed.

If they fail the reflex save, they still get a will save to avoid being dazed too.

So most enemies that fail their ref save usually have have higher will saves. Especially if they want any remote chance against Clerics and Wizards.

Utter fail at reading comprehension. Ignore it and carry on.

[Gandolfi Feesh]

Oh, and another thing.

If the creature makes the reflex save, they don't get dazed.

If they fail the reflex save, they still get a will save to avoid being dazed too.

So most enemies that fail their ref save usually have have higher will saves. Especially if they want any remote chance against Clerics and Wizards.

Nah, not true.
Will save only exists if there is no save for the initial saving throw. so a dazing scorching ray offers a will save, but a failed ball lightning reflex save will daze the target.

[Gotterdammerung]

Oh, and another thing.

If the creature makes the reflex save, they don't get dazed.

If they fail the reflex save, they still get a will save to avoid being dazed too.

So most enemies that fail their ref save usually have have higher will saves. Especially if they want any remote chance against Clerics and Wizards.


Not wat the description said. It said if the spell had no save ordinarily, then you used a will save. In this case the spell already has a reflex save. So pass the reflex and you arent dazed. Fail it and you are.

And yeh sorry theres hardly anything immune to daze, i was getting it confused with stun. But the rest of what i said still applies.

I mean the spell does 3-36 dmg.
So even ER 5 will give a 8% chance of ignoring the spell.

ER 10 an 20% chance of ignoring it

ER 15 35%

ER 20 50%

ER 25 64%

ER 30 88%

ER 35+ immune
And in the case of ER 30 and below, even if it dmgs you anyway, you still get your reflex save.

The point is the spell actually has to do at least 1 point of dmg to you b4 your even at risk of being dazed.

[Grommen]

Ball Lightning is a 4th level spell, and with the Daze effect on it, that brings it up to a 7th Level Spell slot. So you have to be at least be 13th level to toss this mojo (in general I'm sure their are ways of getting around this that I'm not thinking of). So the DC on that save is, DC 19 to 22 assuming 18 to 21 INT on the caster, in a typical game (were not power gamers in my neck of the woods).

So it does 3d6 damage if they fail a reflex save DC 20, and with the meta magic added if they fail the reflex save they get boogered for 4 rounds. So that is another potential 12d6 damage electricity or on average 40 ish damage over 4 rounds, and their out of commission for that time period.

Lets look at that in my typical game.

Rogues, Monks, Rangers, Bards all have good Reflex saves. Most of those classes, DEX is a great stat to have high, Lets assume at least a Dex 18 for a +4 bonus (Hay the caster is packing 20 INT). Without magic they would need an "8" on a D20 (Good save at 13th level is +8 add in +4 Dex for a +12 to the roll). So without magic items for protection (What 13th level character does not have some magic item to protect them), they have a 60% chance of avoiding the affect.

Clerics, Druids, Sorcorers, and Wizards are full spell casters with really, really bad Reflex saves. If they have survived to 13th level with blaster mages around they have done one of two things. #1 been the luckiest bloke on the planet, or #2 learned that Protection from elements is their friend. We'll assume #2. So at 13th level "Resist Elements" a 2nd level spell will absorb 30 points of electrical damage, thuss rendering Ball Lightning moot even if they do fail the save.

So that leaves, Fighters, Paladins, and Barbarians.

Lets break down the Paladin first. They have Resist Elements as well, so they cast that spell could absorb 20 points of electrical damage a round. If they didn't cast that spell, they add both Dex and Cha to their saves so in general Paladins have really good saves. That puts them up with The Rogues, Monks, Rangers, and Bards in reguards to this spell.

Damm this is looking bad for our caster :smalleek:

Now were down to Barbarians and Fighters. Barbarians have a crap ton of HP's so even if they fail the save knocking down 30 or 40 HP's is at most annoying. And their are rage powers that will prevent them from being dazed, I'm sure.

Poor fighters.... I can't really save their bacon class wise. They might have a +5 Reflex, so they have a 25% chance of not getting smoked if they are not wearing metal armor. Sadly they most likely wearing metal so they have a 5% chance of not getting smoked by this spell. Without help and magic items this spell combo is gonna bork them big time. :smallfrown:

However!:smallbiggrin: built into most of my fighters I have Resist Element spells, and after fire; electrical affects are the most common. So that is the second protection I look for in magic items, or have enchanted on my armor. Assuming that the fighter in question is 13th level they should have the wealth to have Resist Elements cast on their equipment, thuss making even them pretty much immune to the above mentioned spell.

So in summery, Every class in the core book has a chance of surviving this spell. It would seem quite balanced to me. Of coarse your millage might vary, and one can not assume that every character will have the above mentioned defenses at the ready all the time. But they do exist, and they are readily available.

Lastly compare this spell combo, to other 6th and 7th level spells, say Delayed Blast Fireball (More damage better DC), Chain Lightning (hits more people better damage, better DC), forcecage, Mass Hold Person, Or my personal favorite. A Maximized, Heightened, Lightning Bolt cast as a 7th level spell (60 damage, DC 23 reflex save for half).

I don't think you have a world breaker on your hands. Though it would be a pretty bad ass spell to get off and work on someone. Would look like Luke getting smoked by the Emperor. Good work my friend.

[CTrees]

@Grommen: Metamagic Rod: Dazing is your friend. Cast normally, you'd require a feat and 13th level to pull off the combo. With a rod, you can get it off at lower level, when it's much more impressive. I really don't think Dazing is worth a feat and the spell level bump, when used normally.

[GoatBoy]

If a DM had an exact series of encounters planned, he'd probably be angry since you can effectively take four creatures out of the battle on the first round (of course, most arcane casters have regular spells which can do this). But if he knows about this particular trick, he will be able to find creatures who can resist it easily enough. Even a creature with resistance 10 to electricity stands a good chance of negating the damage, and thus the dazing effect.

And how many fights last 16 rounds, anyway?

[Blisstake]

Eh, if you want game-changing effects on a failed reflex save, I'd recommend Icy Prison. Or if you want 4th level spells that are ridiculous, look at Terrible Remorse.

Pathfinder has a lot of stupid spell/metamagic, but this isn't one of them.

[Gotterdammerung]

when i think of broke spell combo's

I think of things like wiz 13 casting mudslide then using a quicken rod to cast transmute mud to stone. No SR, pass and your locked waste deep in stone, fail and your buried in stone.

This dazing trick seems like it could be annoying but its hardly broken.

If you really don't like it then copy it. Nothing shows a player how frustrating a trick can be, like throwing it right back at em. What's good for the goose.

Or use the same metamatgic trick but pick a better spell for it or use more than 1 spell with it.

For instance, Caustic mire (CM pg 98). No SR No Save. 20 ft radius area becomes caustic slime costing 2 squares of movement. It deals 1d6 acid dmg for EACH square a creature moves through. If someone stands still in it and doesnt move, it deals 1d6 at the end of that creatures turn. And the fumes make fire spells in the area do +1/dice damage.

The daze metamagic adds in a 14+ability modifier will save to not be dazed. And this save happens anytime the spell does damage. So will save every 5 feet if the creature is moving and will save once per round if he is not.

Throw in a widen metamagic rod for a 40 ft radius. Or 5 lvls in war wizard (of cormyr but doesnt have to be) for a 50 ft radius.

Throw in other dazing spells like the electrical one, and acid rain.

Prebuff with dazing fire shield, and the acid and sonic equivalents out of the spell compendium.

Then focus on secondary anti flying spells.

[Xtomjames]

Not really a game changer. Many monsters in both PF and 3.5 are immune to both lightning and/or daze. If they're immune to lightning they don't take damage and thus they can't be dazed. Resistances work in the same way, if their resistance to lightning exceeds the rolled damage the combo fails.

I'd use the metamagic feat for augmenting energy type to fix this problem.

[BobVosh]

Not wat the description said. It said if the spell had no save ordinarily, then you used a will save. In this case the spell already has a reflex save. So pass the reflex and you arent dazed. Fail it and you are.

And yeh sorry theres hardly anything immune to daze, i was getting it confused with stun. But the rest of what i said still applies.

I mean the spell does 3-36 dmg.
So even ER 5 will give a 8% chance of ignoring the spell.

ER 10 an 20% chance of ignoring it

ER 15 35%

ER 20 50%

ER 25 64%

ER 30 88%

ER 35+ immune
And in the case of ER 30 and below, even if it dmgs you anyway, you still get your reflex save.

The point is the spell actually has to do at least 1 point of dmg to you b4 your even at risk of being dazed.

Even easier, you resist each orb separately, so 20 ER is immune.
15 is close enough to immune when you consider it is a bell curve with 3D6.
Even 10 is just barely below 50-50.