[3.5] When saves get too high...

[Azaril]

As the title says, once players get to around the level 10 mark their saving throws can sometimes seem so high that 'fixing' the DC on spells to make them harder to save again just seems a little cheap.

I know they're supposed to be powerful at that point, but sometimes I feel that as a DM — unless they're facing the BBEG — attempting to use some spells can seem a little fruitless.

How is the best way to remedy this?

[Saintheart]

One, go for spells that don't allow a saving throw. Shivering Touch is one of them.

Two, have the BBEG's personal bard party constantly throwing Doomspeak bardic effects at them. -10 to attacks and saves brings things back into balance a little more.

[Vladislav]

You can also go for spells that have some effect even on a made save. Web is wonderful for that. You made the save? You're still in the web and need a STR check to move.

Also, if the enemy is smart, don't feel bad about targeting the weak save of each party member. It makes sense that the big hulking guy with the Full Plate and Greatsword has a weak Will save, while the guy with wand and robe has poor Fortitude.

[Saintheart]

^^^

This. The Wall line of spells -- in particular Wall of Sand and Wall of Thorns -- are good "delay you for a round or so while I buff or summon help" spells because they require STR checks to move through them and even these require a full-round action.

Also, most saves are boosted that high using spells, whether divine or arcane. Either don't allow the party sufficient time to fully buff before entering combat (Forbiddance is a nice effect that stops teleports and damages parties with untyped damage) or target the casters first if they kick in the door with buffs down. Failing that, always try and disrupt spellcasting first. 3.5e has the invisible subtitle "Caster Edition", so take them down first.

[Eldariel]

As the title says, once players get to around the level 10 mark their saving throws can sometimes seem so high that 'fixing' the DC on spells to make them harder to save again just seems a little cheap.

I know they're supposed to be powerful at that point, but sometimes I feel that as a DM — unless they're facing the BBEG — attempting to use some spells can seem a little fruitless.

How is the best way to remedy this?

Most classes have weak saving throws. This means they'll have a very significant chance of failing those saves, and a small chance of failing others. Also, saving throw DCs scale; all saving throws scale by some stat (casting stat for casters, often Constitution, Strength or Charisma for monstrous abilities), there's "Ability Focus" for abilities and "Spell Focus" for spells, spells can increase in DC by levels while abilities increase when the monster's Hit Dice increase, et cetera.

In short:
1) PCs are supposed to make most saving throws targeting their good saves. What would be the point of advancing in saving throws in the first place?
2) Low level spells and low level creatures are supposed to get less dangerous as the game goes on.
3) High level spells and high level creatures scale their Saving Throw DCs. Further, you can design NPCs and creatures yourself if you want to e.g. emphasize the saving throw allowing abilities.

And it's necessary for the saves to be at least relatively good on those levels since there are spells that basically mean failing save = death or worse (Baleful Polymorph, Finger of Death, Slay Living, Dominate Person, Plane Shift, etc.).

And death shouldn't be cheap so the PCs should be more like than not to succeed in their saving throws; 'cause there's always room to roll poorly regardless and with lots of saves over the course of campaign, the PCs will roll poorly eventually.

[Psyren]

Heighten Spell allows DCs to continue scaling again, so you can buff that 2nd-level spell that was your mainstay back up to relevancy. Also, there are many ways to buff your casting stat, as well as your casting stat's mod where DCs are concerned.

Just watch out for the Heighten Spell on lower-level spells, as many of them have HD caps.

[DeAnno]

This is the sort of high PO environment that spawned the Mailman. That sort of ideology is dangerous to use as the DM, but I suppose it isn't any more dangerous than save or dies are in lower OP games.

[tyckspoon]

^^^
Also, most saves are boosted that high using spells, whether divine or arcane. Either don't allow the party sufficient time to fully buff before entering combat (Forbiddance is a nice effect that stops teleports and damages parties with untyped damage) or target the casters first if they kick in the door with buffs down. Failing that, always try and disrupt spellcasting first. 3.5e has the invisible subtitle "Caster Edition", so take them down first.

Most of the good save-boosters I know are long duration, either 24 hour or hour/level (I'm thinking mostly Greater/Superior Resistance and Conviction, Mass here; there might be single-fight boosters worth using, but I don't recall the names of any.) Geek The Mage is still good tactical sense if you can do it, but it won't help much with saves when those effects are set long in advance as part of the party's breakfast routine.

[John Campbell]

At high levels, spells are supposed to mostly be saved against. It's one of the balancing factors that makes mages not completely dominate the game at high levels.

Of course, it's also one of the balancing factors that WotC completely broke in 3.x, by allowing save DCs to scale, by providing ways to optimize save DCs, by giving characters weak saves that they'll usually fail and making it practical to target those saves, and so on. And this is why mages completely dominate the game in 3.x.

[Optimator]

I play D&D all the time, 1-2 times a week for the last 10 years, in a high-optimisation group. I've never had problems with level 10 saves being too high. Level 15+? Hell yeah. Not 10 though.

[Gnaeus]

I'm also curious what the party looks like. If a paladin and a monk have high saves, they have been penalized enough already by being a paladin and a monk.

[Doug Lampert]

I'm also curious what the party looks like. If a paladin and a monk have high saves, they have been penalized enough already by being a paladin and a monk.

I'm also curious as to how this works. There are ways to pump saves, but most of them have enough costs that it's fine to let them work.

If the party puts a real effort into being good at X, let them be good at X and let X be a good thing to have.

[gkathellar]

At high levels, spells are supposed to mostly be saved against. It's one of the balancing factors that makes mages not completely dominate the game at high levels.

Of course, it's also one of the balancing factors that WotC completely broke in 3.x, by allowing save DCs to scale, by providing ways to optimize save DCs, by giving characters weak saves that they'll usually fail and making it practical to target those saves, and so on. And this is why mages completely dominate the game in 3.x.

They dominated the game at high levels in 2E. Saving throws are not the only factor that make or break the overwhelming power of casters.

[Seerow]

Guys, you're not considering this clearly. These high saving throws are overpowered, and casters need buffs to keep up. I think that to compensate for these high saves, the casters should be adding a second attribute to their save DCs, or maybe even half caster level!

[Gavinfoxx]

Ah, blue is the sarcasm color! Cute trick!

[Psyren]

At high levels, spells are supposed to mostly be saved against. It's one of the balancing factors that makes mages not completely dominate the game at high levels.

Of course, it's also one of the balancing factors that WotC completely broke in 3.x, by allowing save DCs to scale, by providing ways to optimize save DCs, by giving characters weak saves that they'll usually fail and making it practical to target those saves, and so on. And this is why mages completely dominate the game in 3.x.

Um... of all the reasons mages dominate 3.x, save DC optimization is probably the smallest. Many of the best spells have no saves at all, and a lot of those don't even target the enemy.

[Chilingsworth]

^^^

This. The Wall line of spells -- in particular Wall of Sand and Wall of Thorns -- are good "delay you for a round or so while I buff or summon help" spells because they require STR checks to move through them and even these require a full-round action.

Also, most saves are boosted that high using spells, whether divine or arcane. Either don't allow the party sufficient time to fully buff before entering combat (Forbiddance is a nice effect that stops teleports and damages parties with untyped damage) or target the casters first if they kick in the door with buffs down. Failing that, always try and disrupt spellcasting first. 3.5e has the invisible subtitle "Caster Edition", so take them down first.

If you consitantly fail to prevent/disrupt the party's buffing for some reason, give the the baddies some support from psions with Dispel Psionics. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dispelPsionics.htm) Note that augmenting the power increases the value of your check bonus by +2 per extra point spent. Therefore, at manifester level 10 (when you both max out the base bonus of dispel psionics and you're able to max out it's augment bonus by spending the maximum of 10 power points on it) You'll have a +20 to the dispel check. Throw in the feats Overchannel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#overchannel) (take 1d8 damage to increase the manifester level of the power by +1 or more) and Talented (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#talented) (expend psionic focus to ignore the overchannel damage for a power of 3rd level or lower) and a dispelling cord (MIC, 1,000 gp item, +2 to a dispel check 5/day) and you can get a +22 dispel check from an 8th level psion. That should take care of those CL 10 buffs!

[Runestar]

When using AoE spells, even if the PCs have fairly high saves, it is possible that at least one will still fail their save due to poor rolls.

Which is just as well. I am sure you don't want all your party members failing their will save against that mindflayer's mindblast...:smallamused:

[Gavinfoxx]

If they have too many buffs... read this...

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871214/Dispelling_38;_Counterspelling_Compilation

[Onikani]

I play D&D all the time, 1-2 times a week for the last 10 years, in a high-optimisation group. I've never had problems with level 10 saves being too high. Level 15+? Hell yeah. Not 10 though.

^^^
This.

A Standard "Good" save at level 10 is 7. Ok, some multiclassing and prestiges mean you are prolly around 10.
Primary Stats at level 10 are likely 20-22, so add another 6. Add a few more points from your Cloak.

+18 is just about the highest you could often expect. Obviously we can go higher if we specifically build for it, but i'm just shooting from the hip.

But this guy prolly has a bad save, which is 3, maybe lower since he did multiclass/PrC. And its probably not his main stat, but he got a hand-me down +2 item from someone else. Add the aforementioned cloak, and we a whopping +5 or +6.


So our BBEG at 10th level is hurling 5th level spells/effects, with a casting stat akin to the parties'.
In other words, his DC is about 22. A few feats or PrC's and he may be around 23 or 24.


Assuming a 22 DC, a con attack against party's raging barbarian/Frenzied Berserker will probably lose (15% chance of failure), but it will leave the party wizard crippled on the floor about 85% of the time.
Sounds fair to me.

EDIT - fixed a math error.