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Tyndmyr
2011-10-04, 12:37 PM
Have you ever seen that light in someone's eyes when they discover a way to do something better? It makes me happy inside. Warms the cockles of my heart.

Today, my newest player discovered ACF chaining. I think I'm gonna celebrate.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-10-04, 03:29 PM
I really...really....really envy you... I don't even have a D&D group and your newest player is already optimizing. It brings tears to my eyes.

Congratulations:smallbiggrin:

gkathellar
2011-10-04, 03:55 PM
The best part is that he'll build a character that he loves and devotes work to optimizing and playing with ... and then you get to kill it. Fun for the whole family!

Silma
2011-10-04, 05:13 PM
4 out of 5 of my players are optimizers. And it's their first time playing D&D. On my first campaign ever. And it's actually my first game of D&D ever and I just had to be the DM since I was the only one who had the slightest idea about what D&D was...
mehehehehehe
:P

Kallisti
2011-10-04, 05:49 PM
Today, my newest player discovered ACF chaining. I think I'm gonna celebrate.

Mazel tov![/ignorant goy]

Qwertystop
2011-10-04, 05:50 PM
What's an ACF?

gkathellar
2011-10-04, 05:51 PM
What's an ACF?

Alternate Class Feature, because no one can tell if you're being sarcastic over the internet.

*.*.*.*
2011-10-04, 06:01 PM
One member of my group is just now seeing the fun of optimization, so he asks me for help and suggestions now. When he and my wife learn how to by themselves, glorious parties shall be held. The other peeps in the group are hopeless, as they believe monks rock and monkey grip is the best feat ever.

Qwertystop
2011-10-04, 06:28 PM
Alternate Class Feature, because no one can tell if you're being sarcastic over the internet.

So why is chaining them good? I knew of that definition, but I couldn't think of any way it would be useful. Just taking multiple ACFs, right?

I thought it was something like "Arcane Conversion Field", because I remember some sort of trick using a field that converts spells into other spells, so I thought it might be chaining those. The name would fit, and I can't remember the real name.

RandomNPC
2011-10-04, 06:32 PM
What's wrong with Monkey Grip? It's got great use for flavor and .....

Oh....

We're talking about Optimization....

One of my gamers just found the spiked chain trip cheese, with a few potions of enlarge person for added reach. He asked if it was ok to use, and I enthusiastically accepted. He's still got no answer to archers who actually use the full range of a longbow, but it's fun watching him shine in close quarters.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-10-04, 06:41 PM
What's wrong with Monkey Grip? It's got great use for flavor and .....

Oh....

We're talking about Optimization....
Great way to introduce yourself to the thread.

-2 to hit for +1 (maybe +2) to damage isn't worth it. Ever.

One of my gamers just found the spiked chain trip cheese, with a few potions of enlarge person for added reach. He asked if it was ok to use, and I enthusiastically accepted. He's still got no answer to archers who actually use the full range of a longbow, but it's fun watching him shine in close quarters.

Cheese? What cheese? That's a high tier 5.

RandomNPC
2011-10-04, 07:08 PM
Great way to introduce yourself to the thread.
___
-2 to hit for +1 (maybe +2) to damage isn't worth it. Ever.
___
Cheese? What cheese? That's a high tier 5.

I know it's hard to pick up sarcastic tone in text without a tone of voice to go by, so I dunno if you're joking, but my "oh, we're talking about optimization...." and mentioning that monkey grip had good fluff use in an optimization thread was meant to be a bit of humor. I know Optimizing can have great fluff, but generally its about crunch first, fluff second.

And high Tier 5 is cheese for a fighter, otherwise it wouldn't be "high" tier anything.

I figure you're probably trying to be funny like I was, but something about the way you said it makes me feel a bit offended. No harm done, just that odd felling ya know?

Dusk Eclipse
2011-10-04, 08:41 PM
So why is chaining them good? I knew of that definition, but I couldn't think of any way it would be useful. Just taking multiple ACFs, right?

I thought it was something like "Arcane Conversion Field", because I remember some sort of trick using a field that converts spells into other spells, so I thought it might be chaining those. The name would fit, and I can't remember the real name.

A simple chain

Wildshape Ranger Trades Combat Style for Wildshape (as a Druid) and Fast Movement (As a Barbarian)

Spirit Lion Totem: Trades Fast Movement for Pounce, you trade your WS Ranger Fast movement for Pounce

Now you can pounce in forms that normally don't have pounce like say... Bears

See where I am going?

Shadowknight12
2011-10-04, 08:49 PM
Nah, I prefer the way their eyes light up when they tell me how much fun they had.

Silma
2011-10-04, 09:15 PM
I'm still a new and inexperienced DM, but isn't it just priceless when they say something like "Check it out, I found this cool spell at 7th level, that lets me do...."

Claudius Maximus
2011-10-04, 11:54 PM
A simple chain

Wildshape Ranger Trades Combat Style for Wildshape (as a Druid) and Fast Movement (As a Barbarian)

Spirit Lion Totem: Trades Fast Movement for Pounce, you trade your WS Ranger Fast movement for Pounce

Now you can pounce in forms that normally don't have pounce like say... Bears

See where I am going?

Can you really chain like that with class-specific ACFs? I suppose you can trade Rage for Whirling Frenzy no matter how you got it, but trading any old Fast Movement for Pounce is another matter, since you aren't really a barbarian as far as I can tell.

BlackestOfMages
2011-10-05, 06:04 AM
Can you really chain like that with class-specific ACFs? I suppose you can trade Rage for Whirling Frenzy no matter how you got it, but trading any old Fast Movement for Pounce is another matter, since you aren't really a barbarian as far as I can tell.

entierly up to the DM here. RAW let's you trade any fast movement for pounce in the cost/prerequisite part, so technically if you have fats movement you can do it, but your DM may require you to actually be a barbarian

Qwertystop
2011-10-05, 06:57 AM
A simple chain

Wildshape Ranger Trades Combat Style for Wildshape (as a Druid) and Fast Movement (As a Barbarian)

Spirit Lion Totem: Trades Fast Movement for Pounce, you trade your WS Ranger Fast movement for Pounce

Now you can pounce in forms that normally don't have pounce like say... Bears

See where I am going?

Ah, that's the sort of chaining you meant. Yes, I see where this is going. Take ACF that are "As a/an X", then take some of X's ACFs, correct?

Dusk Eclipse
2011-10-05, 08:16 AM
Can you really chain like that with class-specific ACFs? I suppose you can trade Rage for Whirling Frenzy no matter how you got it, but trading any old Fast Movement for Pounce is another matter, since you aren't really a barbarian as far as I can tell.

Well it depends on the DM; but I think the (As a Barbarian) helps it qualify, and it was the quickest example of chaining variant I could think of.


Ah, that's the sort of chaining you meant. Yes, I see where this is going. Take ACF that are "As a/an X", then take some of X's ACFs, correct?

In a nutshell, yes; but it is firmly in the Ask-your-DM (TM) Territory.

Basket Burner
2011-10-05, 09:03 AM
Have you ever seen that light in someone's eyes when they discover a way to do something better? It makes me happy inside. Warms the cockles of my heart.

Today, my newest player discovered ACF chaining. I think I'm gonna celebrate.

I was looking for something instead of a familiar on a Sorcerer. I recalled Divine Companion, and read it carefully. An Abjuration effect, you say? ...Interesting...

I believe that the resulting malevolent laughter has traumatized my players.

Tyndmyr
2011-10-05, 09:08 AM
So why is chaining them good? I knew of that definition, but I couldn't think of any way it would be useful. Just taking multiple ACFs, right?

I thought it was something like "Arcane Conversion Field", because I remember some sort of trick using a field that converts spells into other spells, so I thought it might be chaining those. The name would fit, and I can't remember the real name.

It was something complicated involving druidic ACFs, I recall. The details escape me, but the basic idea is to trade one feature for another feature, which you then trade for something else. It may actually have been the chain mentioned by Dusk, since I recall lion totem barb being brought up.

The same night, he also pointed out that, though he didn't yet meet the prerequisites for X at the given level to take it, he *could* pay a spellcaster to cast the spell on him just before he leveled. After being told that spellcasters don't go cruising out of town for book price, he asked "does this town have mules for sale?" Me: ".....yes" Him: "They're CR 2, so I could have leveled that way" *deducts mule purchase price from starting gold*.

Playing extremely close to RAW results in the best of discoveries.

Coidzor
2011-10-05, 10:43 AM
It was something complicated involving druidic ACFs, I recall. The details escape me, but the basic idea is to trade one feature for another feature, which you then trade for something else. It may actually have been the chain mentioned by Dusk, since I recall lion totem barb being brought up.

The same night, he also pointed out that, though he didn't yet meet the prerequisites for X at the given level to take it, he *could* pay a spellcaster to cast the spell on him just before he leveled. After being told that spellcasters don't go cruising out of town for book price, he asked "does this town have mules for sale?" Me: ".....yes" Him: "They're CR 2, so I could have leveled that way" *deducts mule purchase price from starting gold*.

Playing extremely close to RAW results in the best of discoveries.

He... He wrestled a mule in the town square in order to get the last few XPs in order to ding? Rawsome. :smallbiggrin:

What spell was this? Wombat's X for PA's strength requirement?

Totally Guy
2011-10-05, 10:53 AM
I always thought that ACFs were for GMs to use to say "In my world rangers are this and druids are that." and point at the book. I thought it was a setting thing.

I've never even thought to use them for optimisation.

Ohh that's interesting!

Tyndmyr
2011-10-05, 10:58 AM
He... He wrestled a mule in the town square in order to get the last few XPs in order to ding? Rawsome. :smallbiggrin:

What spell was this? Wombat's X for PA's strength requirement?

Don't recall the details, but he was doing some sort of orcish warlord leadership build. Probably a prereq for that, or leadership muchkinry...I think he had fairly ridiculous strength from being a water orc + an 18 already.

Qwertystop
2011-10-05, 04:38 PM
I always thought that ACFs were for GMs to use to say "In my world rangers are this and druids are that." and point at the book. I thought it was a setting thing.

I've never even thought to use them for optimisation.

Ohh that's interesting!

Its just a way to make a slightly different kind of that class. If you go by "Classes are Metagame Constructs", then they're a way to get slightly different abilities for a level so that you can tailor your character better to what you want. If you go by "Classes are Real, In-Game Things", then there's more than one kind of Ranger.

ILM
2011-10-06, 05:13 AM
One of my players for a new campaign never did any pen & paper RPG. I gave them instructions on building characters and he came up with a fairly stereotypical HULK SMASH barbarian. Fun character, but mechanically limited.

But then yesterday he said he'd been reading up on stuff, and could he take the Whirling Frenzy variant and Lion Spirit Totem?

I think he'll fit in just fine :smallbiggrin:.

Tyndmyr
2011-10-06, 05:22 AM
One of my players for a new campaign never did any pen & paper RPG. I gave them instructions on building characters and he came up with a fairly stereotypical HULK SMASH barbarian. Fun character, but mechanically limited.

But then yesterday he said he'd been reading up on stuff, and could he take the Whirling Frenzy variant and Lion Spirit Totem?

I think he'll fit in just fine :smallbiggrin:.

This is the best of things.

I have all the 3.x books, and routinely loan them out to my group...one of them is working on building a complete collection as well.

New players are typically handed a phb and told to read it to understand the game. Sure, we'll help them make up awesome chars, given loose parameters(flying kitty was a recent one), but to really know what's going on, nothing beats reading the books.

Ayedi_Star
2011-10-06, 06:37 AM
My group is about as un-optimised as you can get, going by the last few characters.
But this is about one player.

See, after the red hand of doom campaign finishes up, I'm running a gestalt game for them, and she's already decided she is a halfling rogue / cleric of pelor (sadly, not THE BURNING HATE version of pelor).

So being the nice DM I am, I introduced her to the cloistered cleric as one of her options... and knowledge devotion.
Her eyes lighting up when she realised a simple knowledge roll would boost her chances to hit for essentially nothing that she wasn't going to do anyway was priceless.

I don't want to turn the group into a bunch of power players, obviously, but I can't help but feel they'd get less frustrated if they'd just discuss build options among the group as a whole to compare ideas, because while their not aware of it, they really do function under the stormwind fallacy.