How to Coup de Grace a Dragon

[Optimator]

My players, don't read this!!


Next session my Campaign will end with a showdown in a cave with three old dragons with a couple of class levels each. A Tarterian Warblade, A Topaz Psion, and a Dracolich Blue Sorcerer.

My problem is that the group's Erudite is dead set on leaving the Topaz alive to steal its powers, and has convinced the group to follow along. There are many ways the party could accomplish this, to varying degrees of success. I was planning--and always was--to have the Dracolich burst out of the dead body of both the other dragons to continue the fight (as dracoliches are wont to do) and I'm also not exactly keen on giving the Erudite even more powers.

I'm brainstorming ways that the Blue can kill a knocked out or asleep Topaz dragon reliably.

My ideas so far:

Quicken Teleport + Full-round Bite coup de grace. I don't like this idea much because it'll take a 9th level spell. I suppose I could take easy metamagic and the epic improved metamagic to help with that though. This tactic would also expose the Dracolich to danger, which he would obviously avoid.

Unconscious targets auto-fail saves, right? A death spell from range would work, but I don't think I've given the Dracolich one yet. Also, SR. There's only a 55% or 60% chance of success.

Necrotic Cyst + Necrotic Termination.

[MesiDoomstalker]

My players, don't read this!!


Next session my Campaign will end with a showdown in a cave with three old dragons with a couple of class levels each. A Tarterian Warblade, A Topaz Psion, and a Dracolich Blue Sorcerer.

My problem is that the group's Erudite is dead set on leaving the Topaz alive to steal its powers, and has convinced the group to follow along. There are many ways the party could accomplish this, to varying degrees of success. I was planning--and always was--to have the Dracolich burst out of the dead body of both the other dragons to continue the fight (as dracoliches are wont to do) and I'm also not exactly keen on giving the Erudite even more freaking powers.

I'm brainstorming ways that the Blue can kill a knocked out or asleep Topaz dragon reliably.

My ideas so far:

Quicken Teleport + Full-round Bite coup de grace. I don't like this idea much because it'll take a 9th level spell. I suppose I could take easy metamagic and the epic improved metamagic to help with that though. This tactic would also expose the Dracolich to danger, which he would obviously avoid.

Sleeping targets auto-fail saves, right? A death spell from range would work, but I don't think I've given the Dracolich one yet. Also, SR. There's only a 55% or 60% chance of success.

Wait the campaign is ending after the showdown? What's the issue with giving a character more power when the campaign is over? :smallconfused:

[Siosilvar]

Wait the campaign is ending after the showdown? What's the issue with giving a character more power when the campaign is over? :smallconfused:

This.

If they beat all three dragons, why not? The Erudite can even become the BBEG of your next campaign.

[SamBurke]

My players, don't read this!!


Next session my Campaign will end with a showdown in a cave with three old dragons with a couple of class levels each. A Tarterian Warblade, A Topaz Psion, and a Dracolich Blue Sorcerer.

My problem is that the group's Erudite is dead set on leaving the Topaz alive to steal its powers, and has convinced the group to follow along. There are many ways the party could accomplish this, to varying degrees of success. I was planning--and always was--to have the Dracolich burst out of the dead body of both the other dragons to continue the fight (as dracoliches are wont to do) and I'm also not exactly keen on giving the Erudite even more freaking powers.

I'm brainstorming ways that the Blue can kill a knocked out or asleep Topaz dragon reliably.

My ideas so far:

Quicken Teleport + Full-round Bite coup de grace. I don't like this idea much because it'll take a 9th level spell. I suppose I could take easy metamagic and the epic improved metamagic to help with that though. This tactic would also expose the Dracolich to danger, which he would obviously avoid.

Sleeping targets auto-fail saves, right? A death spell from range would work, but I don't think I've given the Dracolich one yet. Also, SR. There's only a 55% or 60% chance of success.

If you really wanna mess over your players, go ahead. My suggestion would be: 1. Your game's ending. No biggie. 2. If there are repeats, just go ahead and boost other players, or the bads. Give every enemy the advanced template or something.

[Optimator]

The characters will play in many campaigns after this one, I'm sure. Hell, there's one already in the works by the normal DM and the Erudite player taking place right after mine! It's the end of my campaign with them. Besides, the Erudite is getting a couple of Spell-to-Power powerstones as a reward at the end anyway, which are better than what the Topaz knows. The Erudite already has a vast pool of powers, from purchasing powerstones and taking "Collegiate Erudite", giving him four free powers per level instead of two. I'm not screwing over anybody.

The Dracolich has a very real, in-game reason to kill the Topaz (stealing his bones) and they don't exactly get along in the first place.

[Hirax]

The Dracolich doesn't like the players, yes? It's probably smart enough to know that the erudite would benefit from capturing the topaz. Give the dracolich the feat mother cyst, and have both the other dragons unknowingly implanted with necrotic cysts. Bam! The dracolich now has a way to blow up his comrades. The level 9 spell granted by mother cyst prevents even wish or miracle from raising something, so there would be no hope of the erudite raising them either.

[Zherog]

Sleeping targets auto-fail saves, right?

This is incorrect. Sleeping targets get to make saves - even Reflex saves, though at a penalty.

[CTrees]

Can the dracolich just teleport away the bodies? I mean, he wants the bones, anyway...

[Optimator]

This is incorrect. Sleeping targets get to make saves - even Reflex saves, though at a penalty.

Well, Dragons are immune to sleep anyway so I'll rephrase. Unconscious then?

[Zherog]

Well, Dragons are immune to sleep anyway so I'll rephrase. Unconscious then?

Nope, not even then. Reflex saves are made as though the creature's Dex was 0 (so -5 rather than it's usual Dex mod), and an unconscious creature is considered "willing" for spells where that matters. That last bit might be what you're thinking of, actually. It's not all spells. It's spells that have an entry like this:


Target: You and touched objects or other willing creatures

And then typically has a blurb in the description about what happens when it's cast on an unwilling target.

[Optimator]

Can the dracolich just teleport away the bodies? I mean, he wants the bones, anyway...
He wants to be reanimated by the corpses. That has a finite distance at which it works.

[Optimator]

Nope, not even then. Reflex saves are made as though the creature's Dex was 0 (so -5 rather than it's usual Dex mod), and an unconscious creature is considered "willing" for spells where that matters. That last bit might be what you're thinking of, actually. It's not all spells. It's spells that have an entry like this:



And then typically has a blurb in the description about what happens when it's cast on an unwilling target.

That sounds legit, but I'd love to see a page citation.

[Runestar]

What about some sort of fission like power? They merge bodies (or the dracolich consumes the topaz dragon) and become stronger?

[Hirax]

He wants to be reanimated by the corpses. That has a finite distance at which it works.

Mother cyst still works then, just don't use one of the spells that consumes the body. Necrotic burst causes the cyst to burst from the body, Alien style, killing the host. Sure, the skulking cyst takes some of the organs and stuff with it to form its body, but it'll leave for you enough to work with.

[Optimator]

Mother cyst still works then, just don't use one of the spells that consumes the body. Necrotic burst causes the cyst to burst from the body, Alien style, killing the host. Sure, the skulking cyst takes some of the organs and stuff with it to form its body, but it'll leave for you enough to work with.

I'm digging this a lot. Reliable and sneaky. Well, not that reliable. It has a fortitude save. Against a Dragon. I guess I could make it reliable, but that's not as fun.

[Zherog]

That sounds legit, but I'd love to see a page citation.


Knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having current hit points between -1 and -9, or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.

Which leads to...


A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks gets no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets her sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die.

Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.

Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace.

Nowhere within the definition does it take away the helpless creature's ability to make saves, though it does make their Dex mod -5.

edit:

Also, this for the willing target bit...


Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.

[Onikani]

Got Frostburn?

Shivering Touch (page 104)
Cleric 3, Sorc/Wiz 3

Simply put its a (melee) touch spell that does 3d6 dex damage. No save, but does allow for SR.

Most dragons have a touch around 9 and a dex around 10.
In other words, most of the time this reduces a dragon to 0 dex with a single standard action.
0 dex = immobile = helpless.

Couping him on round 2 should be pretty easy.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Don't the Mother Cyst have a a Domination spell? Perhaps Using that + The necrotic termination, ordering the Dominated Dragon fail it's save against the spell cast by the Dracolich?

[Optimator]

Unfortunately Necrotic Domination is as Dominate Person.


Got Frostburn?

Shivering Touch (page 104)
Cleric 3, Sorc/Wiz 3

Simply put its a (melee) touch spell that does 3d6 dex damage. No save, but does allow for SR.

Most dragons have a touch around 9 and a dex around 10.
In other words, most of the time this reduces a dragon to 0 dex with a single standard action.
0 dex = immobile = helpless.

Couping him on round 2 should be pretty easy.
I appreciate the input, but it's obvious you didn't read the OP.

[Onikani]

I misread it. :smallredface:

I thought you were looking for reliable ways to get the dragon unconscious/helpless, not to Coup him once he was.

My bad.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Give your Dracolich Dominate Monster as a spell known? might serve as a weapon against the players if it ends up confronting them face to snout.