Help with a combat bard!

[King-Strawberry]

I rarely play bards, and I am looking for anything from general advice to specific builds that make bards capable combatants. My image is of a melee bard, but I am not opposed to ranged builds either. I'm sure the playground has an idea or 2!

[gorfnab]

Bard 8/ Paladin of Freedom 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3
Bard 8/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Ruathar 3
Bard 6/ Crusader or Warblade 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8

Throw in some Inspire Courage Optimization (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0) and you're good to go.
Also for general advice on bards: Bard's Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284.0)

[Gray Mage]

If you're willing to multiclass: Bard 4/Warblade or Crusader 16 with Song of the White Raven (classes and feat found in ToB) together with some IC optimization gorfnab posted above is a solid build that is more melee focused.

[Keld Denar]

Alternatively, Bard4/Warblade16 or Bard4/Crusader16 with Song of the White Raven.

Alternatively, Bard20 with a Crystal Echoblade. Take some Snowflake Wardance to stack up your Cha alongside Inspire Courage and go to town.

[Splendor]

Bard 3/Ruthar 3/Lyric Traumaturge 1/Sublime cord (rest)

Bard 3 - (B: 2 Saves: 1/3/3) Normal start for bard
Ruthar 3 - (B: 4 Saves: 2/6/6) I took ruthar because you get Low light vision, free magical item, bonus to a couple skills, you live longer and your saves end up being highter.
Lyric Traumaturge 1 - Bardic music stacks, you gain 2 extra spells, you do lose 1 off your base attack.
Sublime cord (rest) - I then take all the rest in sublime cord. You get wizard or bard spell up to 9th level and bardic music stacks. Base attack drops and skill points drop but 9th level spells!

Feats
Flaw-Poor Reflexes (-3 reflex saves)
Flaw-Arcane parasites (-1 spell DC)
Extra-Artist (+2 perform, +3 bardic music uses)
Extra-Melodic Casting (use perform instead of concentration)
Human- Nymph’s Kiss (+2 Chr skills, +1 save vs magic, +1 skill point/lv)
1- Saved till 2nd level (Wp Finesse)
3- Song of the Heart
6- Leadership

Inspire Courage:
1st: +1 or +2 w/inspirational boost
3rd: +2 or +3 w/inspirational boost
11th: +3 or +4 w/inspirational boost

Bardic music: with artist you start with 4/day and by 3rd level that 7/day

Spells
0: Detect Magic (V), Light (VM), Mending (VS), Presti (VS), Detect Crossroads, Message (VSF)

1st: Cure Light (VS): Always nice to be able to heal a little
Loresong (1 min cast, 1rd/lv, allows you to use any skill, even untrained with a +4 bonus +1/2 lvs) - Nice for open lock or Knowledge checks you don't have.
Inspirational Boost (VS) (swift +1 on bardic inspire)
Nystul’s Magic Aura (no nothing on me radiates magic, duration 1day/lv)

2nd:Alter Self (VS)(10 min/lv) (Tren +8 NA & swim 40, Avarial 50 fly speed.)
Circle Dance (VS) (1min cast) (Gives direction & condition of known creature, don't really need track anymore now)
Reveille VS (1 rd cast, 5rds duration, Cast on dead creature that tells you; 1:Last thing it saw before it died, 2:dying wish, 3:attack that killed it, 4:who killed it, 5:why it believes it was killed)
Tongues (VM, 10 min/Lv) (Yes We can speak each others language)

3rd: Charm Monster (VS) (Make an ally out of that elder earth elemental)
Glibness (S) 10 min/Lv - Yes now I can really lie
Dispel Magic (VS) - Your Caster level is still your full level so you can dispel
Phantom Steed (VS, 10 min cast, 1 hr/lv) Free horse and may be able to fly for hours depending on level

4th: Break Enchantment (VS, 1 min) - Always good for getting others out of problems
Dimension Door (V, Long) - I flee

Magic item: Crystal Echo Harmonizing Blade. Crystal Echo adds 1/2 your bard level to damage when singing, and Harmonizing grants +6 perform & allows your weapon to keep your bardic music going for a number of rounds equal to your CHR modifier AND if you start singing before those 4 rounds run out it doesn't cost you another bardic music ability. Cost: 10,310 gp (but you'll need it be a short sword or a rapier to work with wp finesse, it's normally a long sword)

To hit
So 3rd level bard (+2) 18 dex & wp finess (+4), MW weapon (+1), Inspire & Inspirational boost (+3)
+10 to hit at 3rd level for d6+3+any STR bonuses

AC
At 3rd level: Chain shirt (+4), Buckler (+1), Dex (+4)
AC 19, not great but not bad. If your not allowed to take one of the feats above take expertise and always fight defensively

[gkathellar]

1. Write Bard on your character sheet.
2. Take Snowflake Wardance.
3. ??????
4. Profit
5. Darkness.

[Onikani]

Want some Phb only cheese?

Be Medium, take a solid strength (at least 12), Pump your dex, take weapon finesse, 2wf, combat expertise, and improved trip.

At level 6 you are a dual wielding whips and making trip attempts with AoO's from 15 feet away.


EDIT - Lateral pointed out (next post) that you can't use a whip on an AoO since they don't threaten.
Otherwise, this build works.

[Lateral]

At level 6 you are a dual wielding whips and making trip attempts with AoO's from 15 feet away.

No, you aren't. Whips don't threaten.

They're also negated by any kind of armor bonus.

[Onikani]

you may have me on the threaten part, but the armor bonus is moot - this is a tripping build.

You still get 2 trip attempts on your turn.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Want some Phb only cheese?

Be Medium, take a solid strength (at least 12), Pump your dex, take weapon finesse, 2wf, combat expertise, and improved trip.

At level 6 you are a dual wielding whips and making trip attempts with AoO's from 15 feet away.


EDIT - Lateral pointed out (next post) that you can't use a whip on an AoO since they don't threaten.
Otherwise, this build works.

If that is what you consider cheese, I regret that I won't be able to see your face when you spend a little more time here :smalltongue:

Bards make for some nice Swiftblades, here is a rough sketch that gets up to level 8 spells, BAB 17 and an Epic ready prestige class

Bard 7/Swiftblade 3/Sublime Chord 1/Swiftblade + 7(or 6)/ Abjurant Champion +2 (or 3)

Use Snowflake wardance and you will get Chat to damage and initiative, an extra standard action per round, and if your DM is nice you could use Versatile Spellcaster to cast Haste as a level 9 spell and get a 4 round Time Stop effect, in that case finish Swiftblade, if not dip out at level 9 and grab an extra level of Abjurant Champion

[Onikani]

Lol, I don't consider it cheese.
I used to post on the 3.5 CharOp boards when they were still hopping.

My usual cheese gets bards 9th level arcane and divine spells by 20th.
Or makes a War Hulk/ Hulking Hurler that can throw rocks for a couple hundred points of damage.

But as far as PhB only, you don't have many options cheesifying a bard.
:smallbiggrin:

[Little Brother]

Things to use:
Badge of Valor, Inspirational Boost, Song Of The Heart: You now Inspire Courage at +3 points over your normal level progression. And they are respectively a very cheap magic item, a 1st level spell, and a functionally pre-req-less feat, so you can get that all running between about level 3-5 (get a wand of Inspirational Boost and stick it in the Wand Chamber in your sword.) This is without having to be Exalted.

Snowflake Wardance: Use Cha to hit.
Slippers of Battledancing: Different way for Cha to hit, plus Cha to damage. Note these are replacement of dex/str, not addition, so you get a dump stat out of this if you can make good use of them; they pair really well with means of Swift movement. Only works when you move 10 or more feet, but you also get +10 movement and a decent tumble bonus
Crystal Echoblade: half bard level to damage.
Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows (Dragon Compendium, or they'd get mentioned a lot more): Cha mod again to all your hits, this time as Fire damage.
Dragonfire Inspiration if you want, Pyroclastic heritage, and you get fire OR sonic damage.

KnowDev is great, especially if are going bard 20, then you MIGHT want to run Jack-of-all-Trades with Bardic Knack, but otherwise, eh. You also might want to pick up a level of Cloistered Cleric, especially if you're dragonblood or Azurin(I recommend, I like Shape Soulmeld), then pick up, say, Sacred Exorcist and/or Death Delver to get an extra +cha to damage.

That's all I got for now.

[gkathellar]

Slippers of Battledancing: Different way for Cha to hit, plus Cha to damage. Note these are replacement of dex/str, not addition, so you get a dump stat out of this if you can make good use of them; they pair really well with means of Swift movement. Only works when you move 10 or more feet, but you also get +10 movement and a decent tumble bonus

These synchronize really nicely with the aforementioned Swiftblade levels, which will give you additional actions per round and therefore let you optimize Slipper usage.

[Little Brother]

These synchronize really nicely with the aforementioned Swiftblade levels, which will give you additional actions per round and therefore let you optimize Slipper usage.I was thinking a dip in CC for Travel Devotion and sweet, sweet turning, but that could work.

[Treblain]

I was thinking a dip in CC for Travel Devotion and sweet, sweet turning, but that could work.

Don't forget Knowledge Devotion, Charm Domain (+4 untyped bonus to CHA), and maybe Divine Might.

[Talya]

Alternatively, Bard20 with a Crystal Echoblade. Take some Snowflake Wardance to stack up your Cha alongside Inspire Courage and go to town.

+1 for this.

Except I'd say take TWO crystal echoblades and Oversized TWF. (if you can spare the feats.)

(Additional build notes: Silverbrow Human, Savage Bard variant. Replace Bardic Knowledge with Bardic Knack. Replace Fascinate song with Healing Hymn ACF. Replace Suggestion song with Song of the Heart. Other feats: Dragonfire Inspiration, Melodic Casting, Jack of All Trades. Perhaps lingering song if you find yourself twisting a lot of different song types.)

[Big Fau]

Except I'd say take TWO crystal echoblades and Oversized TWF. (if you can spare the feats.)

Or put the Sizing and Morphing qualities on one/both of them.

[Little Brother]

Don't forget Knowledge Devotion, Charm Domain (+4 untyped bonus to CHA), and maybe Divine Might.Pssst. KnowDev is Knowledge devotion.

Oh, yeah, you can, in case you want to, switch out any of those crappy musics nobody cares about for Extra Music. Thank you, ECS.

[Daftendirekt]

1. Write Bard on your character sheet.
2. Take Snowflake Wardance.
3. ??????
4. Profit
5. Darkness.
Srsly, this. Straight bard. Crystal Echoblades from the MIC. Get your CHA through the roof, at least 15 dex for TWF, Snowflake Wardance from Frostburn, Dragonfire Inspiration from RotD/Dragon Magic/Draconomicon/I always get those 3 mixed up.

Then get the Inspirational Boost spell from Spell Compendium to make your Inspire Courage better. Huzzah, awesome melee bard, and your party will love you since THEY get all that extra damage too.

[Doorhandle]

Want some Phb only cheese?

Be Medium, take a solid strength (at least 12), Pump your dex, take weapon finesse, 2wf, combat expertise, and improved trip.

At level 6 you are a dual wielding whips and making trip attempts with AoO's from 15 feet away.


EDIT - Lateral pointed out (next post) that you can't use a whip on an AoO since they don't threaten.
Otherwise, this build works.

See, this is why you play Pathfinder

Behold, the feats that Indiana Jones holds dear!



Whip Mastery (Combat)
Your superior expertise with this weapon does not provoke attacks of opportunity from your enemies.

Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (whip), base attack bonus +2.

Benefit: You no longer provoke attacks of opportunity when attacking with a whip. You can deal lethal damage with a whip, although you can still deal nonlethal damage when you want. Further, you can deal damage with a whip despite a creature's armor bonus or natural armor bonus.

Normal: Attacking with a whip provokes attacks of opportunity as if you used a ranged weapon. A whip deals no damage to a creature that has an armor bonus of +1 or natural armor bonus of +3.


Improved Whip Mastery (Combat)
You are able to entangle opponents with the coils of your whip.

Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (whip), Whip Mastery, base attack bonus +5.

Benefit: While wielding a whip, you threaten the area of your natural reach plus 5 feet. You can also use a whip to grasp an unattended Small or Tiny object within your whip's reach and pull that object into your square. To do so, you must hit AC 10 with a melee touch attack. Further, you can use the whip to grasp onto an object within your whip's reach, using 5 feet of your whip as if it were a grappling hook, allowing you to use the rest of your whip to swing on like a rope. As a free action, you can release the object your whip is grasping, but you cannot use the whip to attack while the whip is grasping an object.



Greater Whip Mastery (Combat)
You can use a whip to make combat maneuvers with ease.

Prerequisites: Improved Whip Mastery, Weapon Focus (whip), Whip Mastery, base attack bonus +8.

Benefit: You are so quick with your whip that you never drop it due to a failed disarm or trip combat maneuver attempt. Further, you gain the ability to grapple using your whip. To do so, use the normal grapple rules with the following changes.

Attack: You cannot use your whip to attack while you are using it to grapple an opponent.

Damage: When dealing damage to your grappled opponent, you deal your whip's weapon damage rather than your unarmed strike damage.

Free Hands: You take no penalty on your combat maneuver check for having fewer than two hands free when you use your whip to grapple.

Reach: Rather than pulling your grappled opponent adjacent to you when you successfully grapple and when you move the grapple, you must keep him within your whip's reach minus his own reach to maintain the grapple. If the difference in reach is less than 0, such as is the case for a Medium whip wielder and a Gargantuan creature, you cannot grapple that opponent with your whip. If you have to pull a creature adjacent to you to grapple it with your whip, you still provoke an attack of opportunity from that opponent unless you have the Improved Grapple feat.

Tie Up: While adjacent to your opponent, you can attempt to use your whip to tie him up. If you do so to an opponent you have grappled rather than pinned, you take only a –5 penalty on the combat maneuver check rather than the normal –10.

[Killer Angel]

But as far as PhB only, you don't have many options cheesifying a bard.
:smallbiggrin:

And those involve Glibness. :smalltongue:

[Ayedi_Star]

Adding to the list of love for Snowflake Wardance; the duration is easy enough to pump to a ridiculous degree (out-lasting the most chest-tastic barbarian by a fair margin).
It's one-handed slashing weapons only, however.

Add in inspiration (spell), dragonfire inspiration (feat), song of the heart (eberron feat), and if you can manage it, Words of Creation (Exalted, BoED) for an absolute insane melee bard.
Another awesome bard item is the Vest of Legends from MiC.
Words of Creation can stack with snowflake wardance, can it not? if so, that's downright nasty.

One of my bard builds was a gestalt succubus from savage species that gained a ridiculous +18 charisma by level 12, took two levels in paladin, one in marshal for the motivate dexterity aura, and would have ended up with the following:
EDIT: Yeah I know it's pathetically easy to suggest ways that none of this is too impressive, but for a fairly optimised suggestion without getting the cheese dip ready, it's very viable:
Flat / Touch AC 24 even without dexterity, Natural armor made normal AC closer to 31. (really didn't need armor.)
+14 to all saves (essentially immune to most things her own level)
+14 to Initiative (pretty much always first)
To-hit would ultimately be the following:
+14 from motivate, +14 from wardance, sadly I believe her [evil] descriptor would have auto-blasted her out of existance if she'd used words of creation, so no minimum +12 at higher levels to hit from inspire courage (just +8 or so) - but dragonfire would have worked just fine and would have given her weapon(s) +8d6 at higher levels.
+36 to hit would have been utterly insane, +42 with WoC. full Power attack every round would have been a serious consideration even before BAB.

Charisma that high also does wonders for spells per day for bard, and a possible total modifier of +30 (glibness) +15 (ranks) +14 (cha modifier) = +59 to bluff result...

Sadly it's not feasible in a non-gestalt game, but it works so well I'm still looking for an oppertunity to actually play her.