Relieving the pain of MAD

[MikolasTheAngry]

Okay, forgive me if this has been done but I just had a spark of inspiration while baking.

Allow players to designate a physical stat other than Con to determine their HP bonus to hit die. Con still dictates bonuses to fort (or maybe have the alternate stat benefit 1/2--I don't want to remove Con from the game entirely) but it would let, for example, a Monk need one less high stat to not go squish. I know Monk's kinda... haphazard to put it politely, but I think it's a pretty good example of 'MAD gone horribly wrong.'

So, yeah. You could have a character that gets their HP from Dex or Strength, to represent physical aptitude/training more closely relating to physical health.

What do you think? Does it work, is it broken (either game-breaking or non-functioning)? It's not a very well-thought idea, for sure. But hey, if someone else can take it and run to the Promised Land of Balance with it, that's all good, right?

[Drelua]

Seems like a bad idea to me; I'd say CON is already probably the least useful of the physical stats. If you cut it down to just helping with fortitude and concentration, as well as a few out of combat things, fighters and barbarians are gonna be getting a lot more from heir wisdom than how healthy they are. You say you want it to represent aptitude or training relating to physical health, but that's exactly what CON is. Strength has little and dexterity has nothing to do with how healthy you are, that's all constitution.

In the case of Monks, giving them wisdom to attack and damage with monk weapons does more for their MAD problem. I just can't see how nimble you are having anything to do with how well you can take a punch.

[kenjigoku]

Honestly if you are worried about CON playing a role and then want to fold its benefit into another stat just cram it into STR and call it a day.

CON is only useful for HP and FORT which is arguably useful give than you can just magic in temp HP, CON, and FORT bonuses anyways. Plus STR kinda bites as it is, so might as well make them one stat.

[Godskook]

@OP, consolidating stats doesn't solve as many problems as it creates, unless you limit it by tier. Otherwise, choosing dex for your 'new-con' makes SAD classes even *MORE* SAD. And that's before addressing the concerns brought by the oddities of Str/Dex.

@kenjigoku, Str/Dex have quite a few oddities about them. Keying things off Str leads to ridiculous that's not even possible among the mental stats, and Dex is almost as bad. Mostly, this is rooted in size bonuses to Str/Dex, allowing for easier modification than other variables.

[Onikani]

Just give your players a slightly higher point buy, or give them the same point buy but let them start with a 12 con for free without spending points on it.

Or do what i do...
Normal point buy, normal con, just give all of your players max HP at every level.
No rolling, no fussy math, just makes creation so much faster and smoother...

[Curious]

Actually, I had an idea similar to this not too long ago, but for saves. My idea was that instead of having three designated stats that give a bonus to a single save each (Con, Dex, Wis), you would have a pair of stats for each save, which you could choose the better of for each save. So, rather than Con -> Fort, Dex -> Ref, and Wis -> Will, it would be:
Str or Con -> Fort.
Dex or Int -> Ref.
Wis or Cha -> Will.

This also has the problem of making casters even less MAD, but I think it's an alright trade for reducing martial MAD as well.

[Eldariel]

Actually, I had an idea similar to this not too long ago, but for saves. My idea was that instead of having three designated stats that give a bonus to a single save each (Con, Dex, Wis), you would have a pair of stats for each save, which you could choose the better of for each save. So, rather than Con -> Fort, Dex -> Ref, and Wis -> Will, it would be:
Str or Con -> Fort.
Dex or Int -> Ref.
Wis or Cha -> Will.

This also has the problem of making casters even less MAD, but I think it's an alright trade for reducing martial MAD as well.

That's a fundamentally sound change but it doesn't really fix anything but inter-stat balance. That is, however, quite a worthwhile aspect to try and address.

In 3.5's default guise, it's pretty much (without regards to things like class features; obviously having your spellcasting based on Int makes it a stronger stat for you):
Con = Dex > Int = Wis > Cha > Str

This, far as things derived off them and their relative value go. Basically, Con determines your HP and Fort-saves, both universally valuable stats and Con actually grants you comparatively massive amounts of HP so much so that class hit dice are eventually dwarfed by Constitution bonuses.

Dexterity grants you Initiative, Reflex and AC, likewise extremely commonly checked stats. While AC peters off, Initiative grows in power so Dexterity remains a key stat later on. It also acts as the key modifier for numerous powerful skills, such as Tumble & Sleight of Hand.

Intelligence gives you skillpoints and acts as the key stat for many incredible skills in all the Knowledges.

Wisdom gives you Will-save, which is the most crucial of saves since while failing a Fort-save probably has you die, failing a Will-save has you not only effectively die but also become an extra enemy. It also governs the two most universal skills in Spot & Listen, that have quite powerful auxillary functions when on high ranks too (such as penetrating Superior Invisibility).

Charisma has the questionable honor of doing nothing outside boosting skill checks. However, it has the game's strongest skills in Use Magic Device, Diplomacy & Bluff which, while not redeeming the stat (you can use those skills to do equally obscene things perfectly fine with 8 Charisma thanks to auxillary bonuses), is still noteworthy. Leadership would also be derived off Charisma but seriously, Leadership?

Strength gives you carrying capacity and a bunch of useless skills. Basically, if you don't plan on non-finesse melee combat and combat maneuvers being a big part of your repertoire, it's almost worthless.


Easy solution to much of that is to move stuff around. Initiative can easily be Wisdom- or Intelligence-based; after all, the person who is aware of the combat first obviously acts fastest. Wisdom would be more natural.

Strength could allow for higher Dex-bonus to AC in Armor...though that would only help people who mostly want Strength already anyways. It could, however, modify base movement speed with a small amount (e.g. 1' per point, rounded to nearest 5 - alternatively 5' per bonus, though that leads to warriors being really fast) simply because stronger leg muscles = running faster.

Constitution could e.g. be based around BAB instead of HD (actual BAB; it would of course need a stipulation that temporary BAB changes like Divine Power don't affect your total HP); that would keep it equally useful for warrior classes but make it a less relevant stat for everyone else.

Charisma is the one that always stumps me since short of introducing inherent Leadership or making it the base for some other mechanic not in the game by default such as Action Points, there's just precious little it could do it's not already doing. Sharing saves is a step but every other stat would do something else too so Charisma would still be left hanging.

[Onikani]

Actually, I had an idea similar to this not too long ago, but for saves. My idea was that instead of having three designated stats that give a bonus to a single save each (Con, Dex, Wis), you would have a pair of stats for each save, which you could choose the better of for each save. So, rather than Con -> Fort, Dex -> Ref, and Wis -> Will, it would be:
Str or Con -> Fort.
Dex or Int -> Ref.
Wis or Cha -> Will.

This also has the problem of making casters even less MAD, but I think it's an alright trade for reducing martial MAD as well.

Your idea?
That's the way it's worked in 4e for almost 3 years...

[Curious]

-Great System Analysis-

This is a much more rational and reasoned response than I was expecting. I honestly can't think of anything to add to your post. It all seems quite sound to me, but would require quite a lot of revision within the system.


You're idea?
That's the way its worked in 4e for almost 3 years...

Well, even 4e can't get everything wrong. :smallamused:

[grarrrg]

For real help in relieving MAD, check out that PersonMan X-Stat-to-Y-Ability thread. I have a link in my signature.

[Andreaz]

Generally I like to consolidate the attack stats as such, not CON.

My PF table removed Weapon Finesse completely. Instead finessable weapons can be used with either dex or str, for both attack and damage.

Two-Weapon Fighting is also baseline, and "Improved Two-Weapon Fighting" opens up the second attack row to be iterative, thus having as many attacks as the main attack row.

[navar100]

To fix MAD it would be easier and less potential game-breaking to alter the classes that have it than a house rule on the ability scores themselves.

Primarily this means monk and paladin. For monk, let him use Wisdom for attack and damage bonuses instead of Strength. In stereotypical kung-fu movies, it's not as if you see hulking bodybuilders. The monk's AC and ability to hit improves greatly. Dexterity is still important but less so because of Wisdom. Monks become a Wisdom-based class with minors in Constitution and Dexterity. For paladins, Pathfinder made the right call in having spellcasting be Charisma-based. Because of Divine Grace, saving throws will still be good, even for Will, so Wisdom is not even a factor. If the paladin is not lucky enough to have a good Dexterity, he'll be using heavy armor anyway. Divine Grace covers Reflex. There's still Strength and Constitution, but with Lay On Hands the paladin can probably afford "only" a 12 Constitution. Divine Grace covers Fortitude. Paladins become a Strength/Charisma class with a minor in Constitution.

[Socratov]

That's a fundamentally sound change but it doesn't really fix anything but inter-stat balance. That is, however, quite a worthwhile aspect to try and address.

In 3.5's default guise, it's pretty much (without regards to things like class features; obviously having your spellcasting based on Int makes it a stronger stat for you):
Con = Dex > Int = Wis > Cha > Str

This, far as things derived off them and their relative value go. Basically, Con determines your HP and Fort-saves, both universally valuable stats and Con actually grants you comparatively massive amounts of HP so much so that class hit dice are eventually dwarfed by Constitution bonuses.

Dexterity grants you Initiative, Reflex and AC, likewise extremely commonly checked stats. While AC peters off, Initiative grows in power so Dexterity remains a key stat later on. It also acts as the key modifier for numerous powerful skills, such as Tumble & Sleight of Hand.

Intelligence gives you skillpoints and acts as the key stat for many incredible skills in all the Knowledges.

Wisdom gives you Will-save, which is the most crucial of saves since while failing a Fort-save probably has you die, failing a Will-save has you not only effectively die but also become an extra enemy. It also governs the two most universal skills in Spot & Listen, that have quite powerful auxillary functions when on high ranks too (such as penetrating Superior Invisibility).

Charisma has the questionable honor of doing nothing outside boosting skill checks. However, it has the game's strongest skills in Use Magic Device, Diplomacy & Bluff which, while not redeeming the stat (you can use those skills to do equally obscene things perfectly fine with 8 Charisma thanks to auxillary bonuses), is still noteworthy. Leadership would also be derived off Charisma but seriously, Leadership?

Strength gives you carrying capacity and a bunch of useless skills. Basically, if you don't plan on non-finesse melee combat and combat maneuvers being a big part of your repertoire, it's almost worthless.


Easy solution to much of that is to move stuff around. Initiative can easily be Wisdom- or Intelligence-based; after all, the person who is aware of the combat first obviously acts fastest. Wisdom would be more natural.

Strength could allow for higher Dex-bonus to AC in Armor...though that would only help people who mostly want Strength already anyways. It could, however, modify base movement speed with a small amount (e.g. 1' per point, rounded to nearest 5 - alternatively 5' per bonus, though that leads to warriors being really fast) simply because stronger leg muscles = running faster.

Constitution could e.g. be based around BAB instead of HD (actual BAB; it would of course need a stipulation that temporary BAB changes like Divine Power don't affect your total HP); that would keep it equally useful for warrior classes but make it a less relevant stat for everyone else.

Charisma is the one that always stumps me since short of introducing inherent Leadership or making it the base for some other mechanic not in the game by default such as Action Points, there's just precious little it could do it's not already doing. Sharing saves is a step but every other stat would do something else too so Charisma would still be left hanging.

I'm partially with you on the charisma. To be honest I have never played any character that wasn't infested with social skills, just because i like them, i like playing them, and because (and I'm with you on this) those social skills are among the most powerful skills available. there's a reason the diplomancer exists. Everyone knows you can do jedimindtricks with bluff, if you only jack it up high enough (tricks enough available), even the CWar samaurai has only 1 class feature actually worth anything, where he can staredown everyone, almost taking over from the controller wizard. and then non-soacial, but allpowerful: UMD. You could say Cha is for skillmonkeys what str and con is for swordwhackers, and what their respecitve caster stat is for casters (cha casters obviously win here, hence the restriction on their casting awesomeness...) I personally dump wis and str in favor of cha.

[Larpus]

Honestly, MAD wouldn't really be a problem if every stat were of some use for everyone.

Not exactly what I mean, but for example, if everyone had Insightful Strike for free, then Int would be great even for martial guys who don't care about anything else.

Again, it's not quite that, I don't want a straight "every stat adds damage" thing, it was just an example, the way I imagine it, stats not needed by the class (keeping it simple: physicals for casters and mentals for martials) would do something (it would vary by class I believe), so while it does not solve the MAD problem, it's much less of a problem since every stat would matter and SAD classes could potentially consider a slightly smaller casting stat in favor of bonuses elsewhere.

As for Con, I'd honestly make it so that at every level up the characters gain twice their Con mod in HP and/or Con mod = DR. Only martials would get these.