anyone wondering why Roy sprung for cross class ranks in architecture/engineering?

[paladinofshojo]

I'm just curious as to why the fighter of the group needs ranks in any type of nonmartial knowledge....

[Babale]

So he could do what he just did?

[Comrade]

So he could do what he just did?

Duh. You never know when you're going to need to use your ridiculously powerful half-orc opponent against himself to knock down the columns holding up the ceiling, therefore bringing the whole stone building toppling down on top of him and allowing you to emerge victorious.

...or, you know, build a house or some ****.

[NerfTW]

I'm just curious as to why the fighter of the group needs ranks in any type of nonmartial knowledge....

Besides the fact that he wasn't part of the group when he went to fighter college? He probably got those skill ranks before joining the group? Because that's the entire point that he isn't just a "hulk smash" fighter type?? :smallsigh:

[paladinofshojo]

Besides the fact that he wasn't part of the group when he went to fighter college? He probably got those skill ranks before joining the group? Because that's the entire point that he isn't just a "hulk smash" fighter type?? :smallsigh:

That still doesn't awnser the question of why engineering and architecture? Was he planning on getting a day job in construction or take it up as a hobby or something?

[Zevox]

That still doesn't awnser the question of why engineering and architecture? Was he planning on getting a day job in construction or take it up as a hobby or something?
Maybe he just wanted some basic knowledge of it for curiosity's sake. Roy's a smart guy, it wouldn't surprise me if he had a rank or two in many or all of the core knowledge skills. It's not like he has much better to do with those skill points, considering what his class skills are.

Zevox

[raymundo]

Guess it is because the protagonists are meant to be characters with personalities (including hobbies and interests) not minmaxed D&D player tools. Or just for the laughs.
Well, until it is referenced in a comic strip or some lovely maniac finds the reference in an earlier strip or the author himself shares his thoughts any explanation is as goos as any other.


May I be so bold as to ask what the motivation behind your question is? No offense intented, I am just wondering.

[Killer Angel]

That still doesn't awnser the question of why engineering and architecture?

SOmeone already answered... :smallsmile:

A serious crunch answer would be that a PC could use his skill for:
* How to compromise a defensive fortification, with least effort
* How to design, improve, repair a defensive fortification
* When a structure was built
* What was likely behind a wall, as originally constructed
* Where the high priest's chambers is more likely to be, based on similar buildings for this god
* Where secret doors are more or less likely to be, thus cutting the tedious Search time down
* Design a charming appropriate-sized "bird house" for your air sylph SO

[Souhiro]

An intelligent answer: He took those ranks for so he could double as an Demolition Expert, since he is a Management BATTLE Administration, instead of Management Fight Administration. But that raises que question that he could have pulled some of that knowledge to defend Azure City (Doing some collateral damage to the walls of the city is preferible to LOSING the city)


But the most precise answer is that he pulled the skills from somewhere else (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AssPull)

[Mettyc]

Yeah, I tend to agree with the above two posters. Siegecraft, concerning both offense and defense and the construction of siege equipment, would easily fall under knowledge (architecture and engineering) and engineers in early days in the real world were those who looked after things like the ballistae and trebuchets etc. As a fighter in college, Roy probably wanted to maximise his options upon leaving and so took some classes in architecture and engineering, just in case he was hired to be castellan (part "military administrator", as is said in his degree title) of a fort or somesuch. Makes perfect sense to me :smallsmile:

Also, souhiro, I'm sure that he had some ideas about the defense of Azure City - hence why he was invited and, moreover, listened to in the war council. Furthermore, Azure City almost certainly had experts in architecture and engineering, whom I'm sure Roy (with all his wisdom and intelligence) deferred to in said matters.

[Hironomus]

Architecture is an interesting thing to study and makes a pretty good hobby. Anyone could reasonably have knowledge ranks in it if they have the interest.

Throwing another possibility into the mix, Eugene seems like he is kind of tight. Maybe Roy worked part time in construction to earn a little spending money. Maybe he did alittle study into the area to be good at it?

[grimbold]

Maybe he just wanted some basic knowledge of it for curiosity's sake. Roy's a smart guy, it wouldn't surprise me if he had a rank or two in many or all of the core knowledge skills. It's not like he has much better to do with those skill points, considering what his class skills are.

Zevox

This is basically how i view it
It seems to me that Roy would want to know a lot so that in battle he could have multiple tactics instead of just hulk smashing his way to victory

[hewhosaysfish]

We already know that Roy's MBA had an Animal Husbandry credit requirement (which he filled with goat herding instead of horse riding (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html)).
Given that, a little architecture and engineering doesn't seem to out of place.

[Gnoman]

Besides that, Roy has a very high INT for a fighter. That gives him an above-average number of skill points to work with, and a fighter doesn't have that many crucial skills.

[Frozen_Feet]

Roy is an adventurer. Adventurers go to dungeons. Dungeons tend to be underground. When underground, detecting potential chances for a cave-in saves lives.

[mini_magician]

Architecture is an interesting thing to study and makes a pretty good hobby. Anyone could reasonably have knowledge ranks in it if they have the interest.

Throwing another possibility into the mix, Eugene seems like he is kind of tight. Maybe Roy worked part time in construction to earn a little spending money. Maybe he did alittle study into the area to be good at it?

I agree with this, or at least something like this. Maybe upon character creation, Roy was given a bunch of bonus skill points to various knowledges. As someone else mentioned, he took a class of goat herding, so really his background could include some pretty random stuff.

Also, I think his comment about knowledge architecture is more of a joke, similar to knowledge (what the heck you're talking about) or knowledge (limits of my own insanity). I mean, it doesn't really take any knowledge of architecture to realize that if you destroy the columns, the ceiling will collapse. But knowledge (architecture) sounds more intelligent that knowledge (physics). Well, maybe they both sound intelligent. Meh.

[Procyonpi]

I bet Roy has ranks in a lot of knowledge skills from his Masters of Battle Administration. He was trained in how to command and plan, not just fight. Plus, his 5-7 skill points a level probably help. Plus, with his int bonus, he doesn't need that many ranks to have a decent check.

[Gullintanni]

Roy is an adventurer. Adventurers go to dungeons. Dungeons tend to be underground. When underground, detecting potential chances for a cave-in saves lives.

Rocks fall, Everyone...lives?

[Darth Hunterix]

Rocks fall, Everyone...lives?

If he took that skill to Epic Level, you might be surprised. Even to the point when rocks fall, a castle is built. Everything is possible when you are Epic with something.

[Dr.Epic]

So he could do what he just did?

Yeah, because Roy all the time uses the structural environments to defeat his foes. Like in the Dungeon of Dorukan, he was constantly slaying goblins using the architecture of the dungeon to his advantage. I mean, it's not like it's a cross class skill he's never used up to this point before. Wait...

[Steward]

How many skills do Fighters really get, anyway? Since he has an above-average amount of skill points, he can probably drop them into random places.

[neoseph7]

There is the possibility he took the ranks after the battle of Azure City when he saw how significant fortifications and the defending there-of was to the central plot of protecting the sealed rifts.

[RecklessFable]

Our gaming always has at least one PC with ranks in this. It is invaluable for our dungeoneering when we are trying to figure out where a secret room might be, destroy something big, collapse an entire temple of a dark god... etc.

My favorite use thus far has been combining it with e Cleric who has Stone Shape. We have build instant fortifications, taken shortcuts through dungeons, build our entire lair behind a waterfall (with plumbing).

Magnificent skill, really.

[One_Wolf]

I'm just curious as to why the fighter of the group needs ranks in any type of nonmartial knowledge....

Because it's funny. :smallwink:

[Concept]

The goat herding joke throws doubt on the idea that he has siege warfare related skills because he built around being a well-rounded intelligent combat leader. But it was a throw-away joke. I'm sticking with the view that the skill makes a lot of sense for Roy to take.

[Kish]

I'm just curious as to why the fighter of the group needs ranks in any type of nonmartial knowledge....
In other words, you're curious about why the character Roy Greenhilt, suddenly and mysteriously, started acting like he wasn't the dumb thug stereotype he's always outspokenly despised?

[Kazyan]

How long did Roy spend playing blocks with his baby brother? Answer: long enough to get the rank.

[Frozen_Feet]

How long did Roy spend playing blocks with his baby brother? Answer: long enough to get the rank.
OMG. I was wondering if Roy's skill with architechture was foreshadowed somewhere. Thanks for pointing it out. :smallsmile:
[QUOTE=Concept;11974636]The goat herding joke throws doubt on the idea that he has siege warfare related skills because he built around being a well-rounded intelligent combat leader.QUOTE]

Hey! Goats make decent beasts of burden! And emergency rations for hungry troops! :smalltongue:

[Chronos]

Roy is an adventurer. Adventurers go to dungeons. Dungeons tend to be underground. When underground, detecting potential chances for a cave-in saves lives.There's a separate Knowledge (Dungeoneering) for that. But some "dungeons" are castles or the like, so it's still useful.

Personally, I think Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) and (History) should be class skills for fighters, anyway.

[pendell]

How long did Roy spend playing blocks with his baby brother? Answer: long enough to get the rank.

Now that you mention it, look at what Roy built out of blocks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html). Now that I think about it, that shows a fairly high degree of skill in architecture and engineering. So this isn't a skill that's never been used before in the strip. It's just never been emphasized.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Dr.Epic]

How many skills do Fighters really get, anyway? Since he has an above-average amount of skill points, he can probably drop them into random places.

But knowledge (architecture and engineering)? Really? Out of all his skills, he chose not to max out his current skills but drop points into a cross-class skill? And out of all the knowledges/cross-class skills, why that? Also, how high is Roy's int? It can't be that high that he has to invest into cross-class skills.

[Dragonglove]

I believe Roy picked Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) for the same reason Belkar picked Profession (Gourmet Chef) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) and V prepares Bugsby's Expressive Single Digit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html). These are characters with personalities and hobbies. I figure Roy must legitimately enjoy Architecture if he felt like studying it for any amount of time.

[Wardog]

But knowledge (architecture and engineering)? Really? Out of all his skills, he chose not to max out his current skills but drop points into a cross-class skill? And out of all the knowledges/cross-class skills, why that? Also, how high is Roy's int? It can't be that high that he has to invest into cross-class skills.

It's already been said, but I think that can adequately be answered by:

1) Roy is a well-rounded person, with interests and motivations beyond just maxing out fighting power and killing things for xp. It is perfectly reasonable, RP-wise, for him to have an eclectic skill set representing his interests and/or knowledge he just happeded to pick up somewhere.

2) Of all the random cross-class skills a fighter could take, knowledge (architecture and engineering) is one of the more plausible ones, because it will relate to fortifications and castle design, and so is both potentially useful in siege warfare, as well as something a more intellegent and curious fighter might just take an interest in simply due to being around lots of examples of it.

3) It's funny.

[Dr.Epic]

It's already been said, but I think that can adequately be answered by:

1) Roy is a well-rounded person, with interests and motivations beyond just maxing out fighting power and killing things for xp. It is perfectly reasonable, RP-wise, for him to have an eclectic skill set representing his interests and/or knowledge he just happeded to pick up somewhere.

2) Of all the random cross-class skills a fighter could take, knowledge (architecture and engineering) is one of the more plausible ones, because it will relate to fortifications and castle design, and so is both potentially useful in siege warfare, as well as something a more intellegent and curious fighter might just take an interest in simply due to being around lots of examples of it.

3) It's funny.

Yeah, I still say it's odd for Roy to take that out of everything else. What about diplomacy to calmly end a violent clash, or knowledge (local) to know the customs to fit in to new places he constantly travels to as an adventurer.

[Ashadar]

Wow so I was looking at the building blocks castle Roy made in Celestia and I have to say it's pretty complex. I doubt I'd be able to make something like that stand to be honest. I really doubt Rich knew about the whole cross class architecture skill he was going to give Roy when he made that strip but it's a very nice fit.Good find!

[silversnowe]

Yeah, I still say it's odd for Roy to take that out of everything else. What about diplomacy to calmly end a violent clash, or knowledge (local) to know the customs to fit in to new places he constantly travels to as an adventurer.

Again, because he's a person with interests and hobbies. Belkar has ranks in Profession (Chef). Hell, my own Pathfinder cleric has ranks in Perform (Wind Instruments) and Craft (Painting). Neither of those skills have, nor ever will become useful in the actual campaign. They are purely there for fluff and role playing. If they ever do become useful for some reason, then that's a nice bonus, but it's not something I expect to happen.

As a side note, when he was going to Fighter College, it's possible he did not, in fact, have adventuring in mind for his future. His entire adventuring career was kick-started by his father coming to him with the whole Blood Oath business, not by his own wanderlust or curiosity. Who knows what Roy would have turned out as if he had not been pushed into adventuring?

[Gift Jeraff]

His entire adventuring career was kick-started by his father coming to him with the whole Blood Oath business, not by his own wanderlust or curiosity. Who knows what Roy would have turned out as if he had not been pushed into adventuring?Not exactly. Roy wanted to follow in his grandfather's footsteps, and his grandfather was clearly an adventurer. Eugene didn't even expect Roy to undertake the Blood Oath, he told him the story so that Roy would be able to pass it on to Julia when she is old enough.

[Zmflavius]

Also, how high is Roy's int? It can't be that high that he has to invest into cross-class skills.

The squid-thingy evidently found his brain more appetizing than Vaarsuvius's 18 int one.

[Gift Jeraff]

The squid-thingy evidently found his brain more appetizing than Vaarsuvius's 18 int one.V has higher Int. The sum total of Roy's mental abilities (Int, Wis, Cha) is higher than V's.

[ORione]

The squid-thingy was measuring all three mental traits, not just Int. See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=211493#post211493).

Edit: Ninja'd.

[NNescio]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0119.html

[Narren]

Yeah, I still say it's odd for Roy to take that out of everything else. What about diplomacy to calmly end a violent clash, or knowledge (local) to know the customs to fit in to new places he constantly travels to as an adventurer.

Maybe he did? And doesn't Knowledge (Local) only apply to one specific area?

I don't know what you do for a living, but do you have knowledge or skills that don't apply to your occupation? Pretty much everyone does.

[Zevox]

But knowledge (architecture and engineering)? Really? Out of all his skills, he chose not to max out his current skills but drop points into a cross-class skill? And out of all the knowledges/cross-class skills, why that? Also, how high is Roy's int? It can't be that high that he has to invest into cross-class skills.
Why not invest into cross-class skills, considering how little use Fighter class skills are? I mean, really, you have:

Climb, Jump, and Swim: athletic skills you'll rarely use and which are better suited to classes that don't wear heavy armor and thus suffer a hefty armor check penalty.
Handle Animal and Ride: We know Roy doesn't much care about these, with only one rank in ride and likely few if any in HA.
Craft: A miscellaneous sort of skill that he may have points in one version or another of, but probably isn't a high priority beyond, say, enough metal-work skill to do maintenance on his equipment.
Intimidate: Probably the only Fighter class skill he might actually want maxed out.

For someone like Roy, I have absolutely no trouble believing he'd use a fair number of his skill points (which he'll have more of than most fighters, due to his good intelligence and bonus point for being Human) in cross-class skills, and knowledge skills in particular makes perfect sense for him.

Zevox

[veti]

These are characters with personalities and hobbies. I figure Roy must legitimately enjoy Architecture if he felt like studying it for any amount of time.

That argument would be a lot more convincing if Roy had ever shown the slightest interest in buildings at some point in the past 800 strips.

As it is, what it feels like to me is - the DM let the character save a few skill points for an emergency like this, and the player decided to invest them now. That is to say: it is a deus ex machina, but within the setting of a make-believe RPG it's actually completely justifiable.

[Snails]

For someone like Roy, I have absolutely no trouble believing he'd use a fair number of his skill points (which he'll have more of than most fighters, due to his good intelligence and bonus point for being Human) in cross-class skills, and knowledge skills in particular makes perfect sense for him.


Agreed. If Roy starts out life with an 16 Int, he has 6 skill points per level as a human. He might have maxxed out Jump, Climb, Intimidate. That leaves a healthy 3 ranks per level to be well rounded.

Mechanically speaking, it would hardly be shocking if Roy knew more about religions than Durkon and more about tracking than Belkar.

I would not assume he has super high ranks cross-class skills. He could have spent 10 points to get a respectable 5 ranks in 3-4 cross class skills. Even that gives him a decent shot of making a DC 20 architecture check -- he only needs to roll a 12. If he actually maxxed out, he could Take 10 and beat a DC 20 check, because he gets the +3 mod for a (hypothesized) 16 Int.

[JackRackham]

That still doesn't awnser the question of why engineering and architecture? Was he planning on getting a day job in construction or take it up as a hobby or something?
He's a nerd. he has those ranks because he finds it interesting.

[JackRackham]

Why not invest into cross-class skills, considering how little use Fighter class skills are? I mean, really, you have:

Climb, Jump, and Swim: athletic skills you'll rarely use and which are better suited to classes that don't wear heavy armor and thus suffer a hefty armor check penalty.
Handle Animal and Ride: We know Roy doesn't much care about these, with only one rank in ride and likely few if any in HA.
Craft: A miscellaneous sort of skill that he may have points in one version or another of, but probably isn't a high priority beyond, say, enough metal-work skill to do maintenance on his equipment.
Intimidate: Probably the only Fighter class skill he might actually want maxed out.

For someone like Roy, I have absolutely no trouble believing he'd use a fair number of his skill points (which he'll have more of than most fighters, due to his good intelligence and bonus point for being Human) in cross-class skills, and knowledge skills in particular makes perfect sense for him.

Zevox

Able Learner? He's a human with a high intelligence score and WAAAAY too many feats....and a nerd.

[Killer Angel]

For someone like Roy, I have absolutely no trouble believing he'd use a fair number of his skill points (which he'll have more of than most fighters, due to his good intelligence and bonus point for being Human) in cross-class skills, and knowledge skills in particular makes perfect sense for him.


Also, Knowledge's skills can be used only by someone who is trained in them. Even with only 1 rank, you can roll the dice, and see the result.
With some Int and a little luck, you can (example) beat a DC 20 on Knowledge: Planes. Which is not bad for a straight fighter.

[Dr.Epic]

Why not invest into cross-class skills, considering how little use Fighter class skills are?

Then why not multi-class and make the skill class skills? Yeah, it's dumb to multi-class just for skills, but given his mental abilities, he should multi-class to cleric or paladin or enter a PrC that grants such abilities so the skills would be class skills and he could take advantage of his mental scores. Oh, and being able to Smite/Turn Undead/Spells/Some-Other-Ability-That's-Harmful-to-Evil-and/or-Undead since you know he's dedicated most of his life to hunting down a lich.

[Fri]

My ranger has craft:hedgerows and profession:cook. Though, to be fair, the craft:hedgerows one is because his dayjob is being the castle's game keeper, and one of his responsibility is mantaining the castle's hedgerow. Plus, it's his hobby.

Having some sort of quirk or hobby for your character is always fun.

[Ellye]

I'm a professional programmer. More specifically, a web developer. Still, I spend much of my free time studying random stuff like Architecture, History, Geology or Physics just because I find it interesting. They rarely directly affect my job, but I feel that they improve me as a person. It's the same for everyone that has a hobby, basically.

And it's the same for Roy, I believe. He's a Fighter, but, most importantly, he's a person. His interests aren't just smashing things. Even if he's in a quest to save the world, he's still just a normal person that probably has hobbies, peculiarities and such.

Also, nice one for whomever found the block castle that Roy built with his little brother.

[Kish]

Then why not multi-class and make the skill class skills? Yeah, it's dumb to multi-class just for skills, but given his mental abilities, he should multi-class to cleric or paladin or enter a PrC that grants such abilities so the skills would be class skills and he could take advantage of his mental scores.

"Yes, it's dumb to do what I'm suggesting, but he should do it anyway."

Oh, and being able to Smite/Turn Undead/Spells/Some-Other-Ability-That's-Harmful-to-Evil-and/or-Undead since you know he's dedicated most of his life to hunting down a lich.
Because the Turn Undead ability of a first-level cleric would totally be something undead who are bothering Roy at his current character level are going to notice, and he never answered (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html) the question of why he didn't multiclass to cleric.

[Hoddypeak]

Because by definition (until the mid 19th century) an engineer is one who designs and builds siege engines (see that, that's where the word comes from), fortifications, attack tunnels, roads, and bridges (used primarily for moving armies). A civil engineer is a person who used their military engineering skills to create things for the civilian side of society, and the word continued to evolve from there.

The real question is why Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) is not a class skill for fighters and paladins. Even today, engineering is one of the most encouraged majors for military officers in most countries. I'm guessing it's just because the people who designed 3.x didn't know what engineering actually was in the time period around which D&D is designed.

Or, as the joke in engineering circles goes, engineers make weapons, civil engineers make targets.

[Zevox]

Then why not multi-class and make the skill class skills?
One, because he doesn't want to - in case you missed it, he's rather proud of being a single-class Fighter, and enjoys how it ticks off his father. Two:


Yeah, it's dumb to multi-class just for skills,
You answered your own question.

Also, there are only two core class he could multiclass to that would give him Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) as a class skill. One is just about the last one he would ever consider multiclassing in - wizard. The other is one he couldn't take even if he wanted to, bard.

For your specific class suggestions, for one they only provide him with a limited array of knowledge skills as class skills - especially paladin, which gets only religion and nobility & royalty. Neither would give him architecture & engineering. Further, as Kish noted, we know exactly why he never took any levels in cleric, and similar reasoning would apply to being a paladin. Besides, Roy really isn't the paladin type - just being lawful good isn't enough for that, you know.

And finally, why bother? This isn't a big deal. You don't need all your skills to be maxed out class skills for them to be useful - particularly at high levels such as Roy is reaching, where only the most absurdly difficult skill checks will require that many points in a skill. A few points cross-class in a useful general skill, especially one that you can't use untrained, will generally be a good move.

Zevox

[Psyren]

Clearly his baby brother had the higher modifier, and Roy was merely using the Aid Another action to assist his construction. :smallamused:

Seriously though, I'd say that counts as foreshadowing.

[Snails]

I'm guessing it's just because the people who designed 3.x didn't know what engineering actually was in the time period around which D&D is designed.

Most likely true. In this college education-ruled age, they probably thought that engineering is a smarty-pants (wizard) or artsy (bard) endeavor, where the right pre-reqs are a must.

In fact, at their roots architecture & engineering are very practical and accessible sciences, which inspired the invention of formal geometry. In this earlier age, you would come to geometry through architecture & engineering, not the other way round.

[SoC175]

This is basically how i view it
It seems to me that Roy would want to know a lot so that in battle he could have multiple tactics instead of just hulk smashing his way to victoryWell, since cross-class skills are expensive and have a terribly low cap it just means that he knows very little of a lot of different things, but not enough in either to actually manage a skill check DC that's anywhere near his level (as these are based on the ranks possible in class skills)

[Frozen_Feet]

There's a separate Knowledge (Dungeoneering) for that. But some "dungeons" are castles or the like, so it's still useful.


Nope. Check the rules about cave-ins. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm) Architechture & Engineering is the skill you use to spot them.

[King of Nowhere]

I'm sure everyone posting here has knowledges and skills that don't relate to their jobs. Then there is general culture and general knowledge, and it isn't even related to our hobbies and we still have quite a lot of it.
I don't understand why so many poeple expects Roy to be different. Just because in hardocre D&D it is a sligthly less optimal build? Well, I always tougth that build optimization lead (mostly) to irrealistic characters.

[Snails]

Well, since cross-class skills are expensive and have a terribly low cap it just means that he knows very little of a lot of different things, but not enough in either to actually manage a skill check DC that's anywhere near his level (as these are based on the ranks possible in class skills)

Skill checks do not scale that way, unless you are talking about specific checks that are usually opposed.

As a practical matter, one can do impressive things with a net +10 skill. Such allows a reliable DC 20 success by Taking 10, a decent chance to reach DC 25 on the roll, and the possibility of Taking 20 to reach DC 30 when not in a hurry.

A lot of "almost impossible" tasks are DC 20 or DC 25. So +10 skill is sufficient to wow others with novel tactics and insights. Tumbling right past a guard with sword in hand in only DC 25.

Roy could easily have 7 ranks in 2 or 3 cross class skills. Buttressed with a high Int, and there he is.

[mrmcfatty]

also, without knowing the actual DC for what he was rolling or what he rolled makes a difference. How do we know he didnt roll a 19 with a DC of 20.

And i agree Zevox, there really are no skills a fighter has that matters for the most part. A couple other skills he might be maxing out are search, spot, listen, and move silently (hide being another good possibility). all of those are more useful then his class skills.

[rewinn]

Ever wonder if Roy's dad asked him the same question:smallsigh:?

That would have pretty much cemented his choice :smallbiggrin:

[Tira-chan]

Because he wanted to? Because he didn't like his class skills that well? In my current Pathfinder game, our fighter has some points in Knowledge [engineering], and he's playing a half-orc with little-to-no Int bonus. It's not all that unbelievable.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Because he wanted to? Because he didn't like his class skills that well? In my current Pathfinder game, our fighter has some points in Knowledge [engineering], and he's playing a half-orc with little-to-no Int bonus. It's not all that unbelievable.

It's a class skill for PF fighters.

But yes, I can see it on Roy.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Just something that irks me... you don't need to actually have ranks in profession (cook) to roleplay a cook, you only need them if you want to have an actual mechanical impact in gameplay. :smallsigh:

I agree that Roy either thought those Ranks would be useful, he is after all the type of person to have that kind of foresight, or it was required for his MBA (most likely both), as of why he didn't show them till now (except perhaps the scene with Eric in Celestia) I direct you to this



Q: What are the character.s D&D stats? Will you ever create character sheets for us to see?

A: There are no hard-and-fast stats for the characters. I find that if I were to ever commit exact stats to paper, I would feel limited in what I could have these characters do in the future. For example, I might want to make a strip spoofing a particular feat, only to find that I didn.t give it to any of my characters. As a result, there will never be official game statistics for Roy, Elan, and the rest <snip>

[Zevox]

Skill checks do not scale that way, unless you are talking about specific checks that are usually opposed.

As a practical matter, one can do impressive things with a net +10 skill. Such allows a reliable DC 20 success by Taking 10, a decent chance to reach DC 25 on the roll, and the possibility of Taking 20 to reach DC 30 when not in a hurry.

A lot of "almost impossible" tasks are DC 20 or DC 25. So +10 skill is sufficient to wow others with novel tactics and insights. Tumbling right past a guard with sword in hand in only DC 25.

Roy could easily have 7 ranks in 2 or 3 cross class skills. Buttressed with a high Int, and there he is.
Precisely. Skill checks in D&D tend to be pretty easy things to make once you're past level 5 or so with class skills, and once you're into the teens with cross-class skills. Outside of epic levels, the highest DCs you're likely to see for your skill checks are 25 or 30, and that's for the ridiculously hard stuff - for general use being able to readily meet a DC of 15 to 20 will get you a lot of mileage out of most skills.

Epic level skill checks do get crazy, reaching such absurd levels that you'll want the skill to be a class one with maxed out ranks, the epic skill focus feat, and probably an item boosting it further in order to make them, but that's not going to be a concern for most characters. And even for those that reach epic levels it's mainly a concern for spellcasters, who need massive spellcraft scores to use epic magic.

Zevox

[mrmcfatty]

Epic level skill checks do get crazy, reaching such absurd levels that you'll want the skill to be a class one with maxed out ranks, the epic skill focus feat, and probably an item boosting it further in order to make them.

Zevox

what, you mean you cant pass a DC100 climb check to climb a flat ceiling by only rolling a 5 lame! :P

[Frozen_Feet]

also, without knowing the actual DC for what he was rolling or what he rolled makes a difference. How do we know he didnt roll a 19 with a DC of 20.

We know what the DC is. By the rules, spotting danger of a weakened ceiling is a DC 20 Architechture & Engineering check.

Assuming Roy is level 14, his max ranks in a cross-class skill are 8.5, costing him 17 skillpoints. Assuming 18 Int (+4 modifier), that's only one seventh of his total skillpoints (17*[1H+2F+4Int]= 119), a reasonable investment.

Thus, his modifier from skill ranks and intelligence alone would be +12, or 65% chance of making the check.

[semi]

Anyone? Yes. Me? No.

[ORione]

Assuming 18 Int

This is starting to be a pet peeve of mine. See my signature.

[Gift Jeraff]

It just dawned upon me that I am similar to Roy in this regard. I took 1 year of construction, 1 year of architecture, 2 years of engineering, and am OSHA-certified (though that's nothing special, really), yet I majored in biology and English.

Hrm.

[Frozen_Feet]

This is starting to be a pet peeve of mine. See my signature.

All that post tells is that Varsuvius has higher Int. Considering the elf is a Wizard and above level 12, a starting Int of 18 and three points from level-up would make his Int 21. Then there's a Headband of Intellect to consider.

Nothing precludes Roy from having Int 18, and it wouldn't surprise me if he had.

[Gnoman]

V explicitly stated that he had an 18 INT.

[ORione]

V's likely increased hir intelligence since then, but at the time relevant to my link, V's intelligence was 18, as Gnoman said.

Edit: See next-to-last panel. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html)

[Frozen_Feet]

Okay. Assuming Int 16 drops him to +11, or 60% chance, using one-sixth of his total skillpoints.

[FujinAkari]

V's likely increased hir intelligence since then, but at the time relevant to my link, V's intelligence was 18, as Gnoman said.

Edit: See next-to-last panel. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html)

True, but why are you accepting that V has had the chance to increase his int since then, while denying that Roy could have?

[Thalnawr]

True, but why are you accepting that V has had the chance to increase his int since then, while denying that Roy could have?
Mostly because Roy is smart enough to realize that putting his level-up increases to Strength would be more suitable to his role.

[Warder]

The Order of the Stick have never been min-maxers.

[Jayabalard]

Yeah, because Roy all the time uses the structural environments to defeat his foes. Like in the Dungeon of Dorukan, he was constantly slaying goblins using the architecture of the dungeon to his advantage. I mean, it's not like it's a cross class skill he's never used up to this point before. Wait...No, he knew that they wanted to go down a level, even when Haley wanted to go up a level.

[Jayabalard]

This is starting to be a pet peeve of mine. See my signature.

Roy's INT is less than 18. You may stop claiming otherwise now.
"is" - no guarantee that this is the correct tense.

We know for sure that it was less than 18... that doesn't mean that it is less than 18

[paladinofshojo]

Why would Roy be putting points into making his Int any higher? He's already around at least 15-16...unless he wants to learn arcane magic he probably invested his points into Strength... you know, like any rational fighter would.

[FujinAkari]

Why would Roy be putting points into making his Int any higher? He's already around at least 15-16...unless he wants to learn arcane magic he probably invested his points into Strength... you know, like any rational fighter would.

I dunno... maybe because the defining aspect of his character is that he ISN'T a big dumb fighter? Roy treasures his intellect more than any other attribute.

You seem very interested in what the most game-rules intellegent action would be, and are ignoring Characterization... Roy (and Rich, for that matter) has no interest in blindly following a game formula, Roy is going to act like Roy, not 'Optimal Fighter #263'

[Hiro Protagonest]

I dunno... maybe because the defining aspect of his character is that he ISN'T a big dumb fighter? Roy treasures his intellect more than any other attribute.

Except he once said "'strength' is my strength". Also, not being Big Dumb Fighter doesn't mean he's Einstein.

[FujinAkari]

Except he once said "'strength' is my strength". Also, not being Big Dumb Fighter doesn't mean he's Einstein.

Yes, but Strength isn't Roy's highest ability score (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0791.html)

((No, I don't think this is evidence, I think it's a joke... but if you're going to use 'Strength is my Strength' as evidence, then I get to use 'I know how to use MY highest ability' as evidence Int is Roy's :P))

[Zevox]

Yes, but Strength isn't Roy's highest ability score (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0791.html)
There is nothing in there which indicates that strength is not Roy's highest ability score.

Also, being as intelligent as he is would be a reason for Roy to put his level up bonuses into strength. You don't need to be smart at all to know that those bonuses are best spent on the ability score that will be the most help to you in a fight - even players who never bother optimizing anything know that. For someone like Roy to not notice it, or to actually think adding those precious few bonus points to an ability score unrelated to his class is a good idea, would be just crazy.

Zevox

[Hiro Protagonest]

Yes, but Strength isn't Roy's highest ability score (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0791.html)

Er, no, his strength just isn't as high as the guy's who went point buy and half-orc and dumped three stats.

[FujinAkari]

There is nothing in there which indicates that strength is not Roy's highest ability score.

If Thog knows how to use his highest ability score, and Roy doesn't (the point of the comment) and the entire comic is about Roy trying to figure out how to make use of his int, then yes, there IS something in there.

But again, I consider that comment a joke and not something to be taken seriously, nor do I consider anything posted good reason to think someone as bibliophilic as Roy has chosen NEVER to increase his favorite stat just because its what a min/maxer would do.

[Zevox]

But again, I consider that comment a joke and not something to be taken seriously, nor do I consider anything posted good reason to think someone as bibliophilic as Roy has chosen NEVER to increase his favorite stat just because its what a min/maxer would do.
Since when does Roy - or anyone else in this comic for that matter - have a "favorite stat?"

And the notion that a fighter increasing his strength score instead of his intelligence when he gets bonus points from leveling up being just "what a min-maxer would do" is precisely what I was calling crazy in my last post. That's just as basic a move as knowing that you'll want to put your highest roll or most points into intelligence, not strength, if you're creating a wizard character. Any D&D character needs to actually be good at what their class is designed to do, whether they're genuinely optimized or not, and level-up stat bonuses, rare and useful as they are, get used towards that by practically everyone. It's just a basic function of the game, not even close to a min/maxing thing.

Zevox

[Hiro Protagonest]

Since when does Roy - or anyone else in this comic for that matter - have a "favorite stat?"

And the notion that a fighter increasing his strength score instead of his intelligence when he gets bonus points from leveling up being just "what a min-maxer would do" is precisely what I was calling crazy in my last post. That's just as basic a move as knowing that you'll want to put your highest roll or most points into intelligence, not strength, if you're creating a wizard character. Any D&D character needs to actually be good at what their class is designed to do, whether they're genuinely optimized or not, and level-up stat bonuses, rare and useful as they are, get used towards that by practically everyone. It's just a basic function of the game, not even close to a min/maxing thing.

Zevox

In a Dragon strip, Roy even acknowledges that fighters don't get to have nice things when Elan asked why only he got to use the Manual of Gainful Excersise. He'd pump his primary stat up as much as possible, so that he can be as good as possible at what he does while still avoiding "dumb fighter".

[137beth]

Because the plot demanded it. If I had to take a guess, I'd say Strength was his highest ability score, he just has the advantage of having ANOTHER decent ability score as well.

[Seerow]

Personally I've thought for a long time that craft/profession/knowledge skills should be tracked separately from 'real' skills.

Like you get your 4 skill points per level to put into the real skills, and you get 2+int that you can put into craft/profession/knowledge.

I mean really, how did having an above average int help you get better at tumbling or climbing?

[Snails]

The idea is that Int means learning more skills is not ridiculous. It is made awkward by the fact that some classes get so few skills points, so a modest difference in Int makes for a huge difference in selection. Furthermore that some classes absolutely need a number of skills to functions while others do not is also odd.

We get oddities like the fact that a pretty dumb Rogue can have a lot more Knowledge skills and Languages than a pretty smart Fighter. That is not too terrible, but I cannot say I like it.

The other thing is that if you remove Int from the equation you cannot actually play a "smart fighter" at all, without multi-classing. That would be terrible.

[Kish]

Since when does Roy - or anyone else in this comic for that matter - have a "favorite stat?"
I would venture that Vaarsuvius drastically undervalues all his/her stats except Intelligence.

That's the only one I'm absolutely certain of. I would be quite surprised if Elan didn't have a favorite stat of Charisma, or if Durkon didn't have a favorite stat of Wisdom, but not utterly flabbergasted like I would be if Rich responded to this post with, "Actually Vaarsuvius likes Dexterity best."

[Howler Dagger]

but not utterly flabbergasted like I would be if Rich responded to this post with, "Actually Vaarsuvius likes Dexterity best."
since dex is what all the blasty spells require to hit with their ranged touch attack rolls, it wouldnt be too rediculous.

But really, roy took them because he didnt just spend his time in fighter college hitting stuff with a stick and herding goats.

[paladinofshojo]

I dunno... maybe because the defining aspect of his character is that he ISN'T a big dumb fighter? Roy treasures his intellect more than any other attribute.

You seem very interested in what the most game-rules intellegent action would be, and are ignoring Characterization... Roy (and Rich, for that matter) has no interest in blindly following a game formula, Roy is going to act like Roy, not 'Optimal Fighter #263'

But if he didn't put the majority of those points into strength he couldn't even FUNCTION as a fighter.... he would be just as physically weak and feeble as Elan or Vaarsuvius




But really, roy took them because he didnt just spend his time in fighter college hitting stuff with a stick and herding goats.

It's a fighter college.... it's a whole school designated to train fighters... I guess it would make sense to have some undergraduate classes on siege weaponry and repair and other combat engineering but still......my guess is that it is akin to a power-house PAC-12 university which puts athletic performance over quality education

[Zevox]

I would venture that Vaarsuvius drastically undervalues all his/her stats except Intelligence.

That's the only one I'm absolutely certain of. I would be quite surprised if Elan didn't have a favorite stat of Charisma, or if Durkon didn't have a favorite stat of Wisdom, but not utterly flabbergasted like I would be if Rich responded to this post with, "Actually Vaarsuvius likes Dexterity best."
Such is presupposing that they actually think of stats in terms of favorites though. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't expect that to be the case, and I know we haven't seen any evidence of it. V undervaluing anything other than intelligence is as close as you can get, and that's still different from actively thinking of it in those terms.

Zevox

[Frozen_Feet]

I mean really, how did having an above average int help you get better at tumbling or climbing?

Both involve technique. Learning any technique is easier if you're not the dullest knife in the drawer. No skill is just pure physical prowess, there are always some non-intuitive things that need to be learned and memorized.



We get oddities like the fact that a pretty dumb Rogue can have a lot more Knowledge skills and Languages than a pretty smart Fighter. That is not too terrible, but I cannot say I like it.


I don't consider it all that odd. Skill points from Intelligence represent your natural inclination towards learning; Skill points from class represent your actual education. Even in the real world, lots of practice trumps raw intellect in pretty much every task. On the other hand, just being intelligent doesn't help all that much if you're in a poor learning environment.

For example, 2 skill points / level gained by a Commoner represent his poor upbringing, while 6 skill points of an Expert represent his extensive education.

The skill point system, at its core, is pretty logical. Where D&D fails is in assigning proper skills and skillpoints to several classes; for example, Fighters have no class skill at all concerning the academic side of combat, like strategy.

[dtilque]

Though, to be fair, the craft:hedgerows one is because his dayjob is being the castle's game keeper, and one of his responsibility is mantaining the castle's hedgerow. Plus, it's his hobby.

He wouldn't happen to be named Roger the Shrubber (http://www.moviequotedb.com/movies/monty-python-and-the-holy-grail/character_1624.html), would he?

[paladinofshojo]

.

Where D&D fails is in assigning proper skills and skillpoints to several classes; for example, Fighters have no class skill at all concerning the academic side of combat, like strategy.

So....you're saying fighters should be warlords?:smallconfused:

I've always thought of fighters as the "grunts" who do all the strenuous physical parts of the battle whereas the warlord is the "smart guy" who fills all the intellectual aspects of battle, strategy, tactics, military leadership etc.

[Stubbazubba]

So....you're saying fighters should be warlords?:smallconfused:

I've always thought of fighters as the "grunts" who do all the strenuous physical parts of the battle whereas the warlord is the "smart guy" who fills all the intellectual aspects of battle, strategy, tactics, military leadership etc.

If Fighters are just muscle, what are Barbarians for? And Warlord is not an actual class option in Core.

[Ninja Dragon]

Well, Roy is not just a Fighter, he is also the leader of a multi-class team that is doing a very difficult mission. It might be useful to have more skills than just hacking a sword.

[Kish]

So....you're saying fighters should be warlords?:smallconfused:
I doubt Frozen Feet is saying anything about a 4ed class in his posts about the 3.5ed Order of the Stick. Somehow.

[Lord.Sorasen]

So....you're saying fighters should be warlords?:smallconfused:

I've always thought of fighters as the "grunts" who do all the strenuous physical parts of the battle whereas the warlord is the "smart guy" who fills all the intellectual aspects of battle, strategy, tactics, military leadership etc.

I always fealt that was the warrior. Either way, they wouldn't put foot soldiers through expensive fighter colleges. They would expect the people who leave those to do more important things.

Also, why do people assume he had a ton of ranks in the skill? It's a DC 20 to recognize the structural damage. Roy has probably +3 if not +4 in intelligence. Chances are low but already possible. Placing even half a rank into the skill would give Roy the ability to roll these high checks.

Consider how long the battle between Roy and Thog lasted. There's a good chance Roy has been making different knowledge checks the entire time. It could easily not have come up before because it simply doesn't work all that often. But by taking cross-class ranks Roy has the option to try. Roy uses his high int score in whatever ways he can. I could easily see him with 1 rank in quite a few knowledges.

Also in diplomacy, because he manages to keep the Order together somehow.

[ORione]

I always fealt that was the warrior. Either way, they wouldn't put foot soldiers through expensive fighter colleges. They would expect the people who leave those to do more important things.

Also, why do people assume he had a ton of ranks in the skill? It's a DC 20 to recognize the structural damage. Roy has probably +3 if not +4 in intelligence. Chances are low but already possible. Placing even half a rank into the skill would give Roy the ability to roll these high checks.

Consider how long the battle between Roy and Thog lasted. There's a good chance Roy has been making different knowledge checks the entire time. It could easily not have come up before because it simply doesn't work all that often. But by taking cross-class ranks Roy has the option to try. Roy uses his high int score in whatever ways he can. I could easily see him with 1 rank in quite a few knowledges.

Also in diplomacy, because he manages to keep the Order together somehow.

Roy said he has cross-class ranks in Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering). That's at least four skill points. Your point that he doesn't necessarily have loads of points in the skill is still reasonable, though.

[Frozen_Feet]

So....you're saying fighters should be warlords?:smallconfused:

I've always thought of fighters as the "grunts" who do all the strenuous physical parts of the battle whereas the warlord is the "smart guy" who fills all the intellectual aspects of battle, strategy, tactics, military leadership etc.

The closest thing core D&D 3.5 has to a "Warlord" is an Aristocrat, which is, ironically enough, an NPC class, not meant to be played by the players. Sure, from the PC classes, Bard, Rogue, Cleric and Paladin could do that job as well or better, but I doubt they're the classes either which people think about first when hearing words like "army general" or "great military leader".

Warriors, an NPC class, represent the peasant conscripts with barely the ability to maintain their own equipment (no Craft as class skill). Fighters, as PC class, are professional soldiers, meaning they're Elite grunts at minimum.

Elite grunts shoud, at the very least, be capable of siege warfare, which requires ability to analyze, build, maintain, and destroy structures; all tasks which would require Architechture & Engineering.

A high-level Fighter would reasonably be a Commissioned Officer, who are expected to negotiate with each other and sometimes the enemy; tasks which require Bluff and Diplomacy, also lacking for Fighter's list.

Not that Fighters would know jack or squat about Commissioned Officers, or the rest of their chain of command, as for some reason, neither Knowledge (Local) or Knowledge (Nobility or Royalty) are on their list either.

Then we get to the fact that Fighters would have the Feats to be Archers, but they lack Spot, which is kinda vital for one. They could be guards, expect lack Listen and Sense Motive. They could be Militia, expect they lack Search and Gather Information.

They could take these as Cross-class skills... but they only get 2 skill points per level, so the average trooper can only do one thing well or two things half-assedly.

In short, in Warrior and Fighter, we have two classes that ostensibly fill the role of soldiers, but they have great difficulty filling what's required from even the plainest army grunt. Logically, then, armies in D&D 3.5 should not be made out of Warriors or Fighters, but Experts lead by Aristocrats, with elite grunts being Rogues and highest-ranking leaders being Paladins and Bards.

[paladinofshojo]

The closest thing core D&D 3.5 has to a "Warlord" is an Aristocrat, which is, ironically enough, an NPC class, not meant to be played by the players. Sure, from the PC classes, Bard, Rogue, Cleric and Paladin could do that job as well or better, but I doubt they're the classes either which people think about first when hearing words like "army general" or "great military leader".

Warriors, an NPC class, represent the peasant conscripts with barely the ability to maintain their own equipment (no Craft as class skill). Fighters, as PC class, are professional soldiers, meaning they're Elite grunts at minimum.

Elite grunts shoud, at the very least, be capable of siege warfare, which requires ability to analyze, build, maintain, and destroy structures; all tasks which would require Architechture & Engineering.

A high-level Fighter would reasonably be a Commissioned Officer, who are expected to negotiate with each other and sometimes the enemy; tasks which require Bluff and Diplomacy, also lacking for Fighter's list.

Not that Fighters would know jack or squat about Commissioned Officers, or the rest of their chain of command, as for some reason, neither Knowledge (Local) or Knowledge (Nobility or Royalty) are on their list either.

Then we get to the fact that Fighters would have the Feats to be Archers, but they lack Spot, which is kinda vital for one. They could be guards, expect lack Listen and Sense Motive. They could be Militia, expect they lack Search and Gather Information.

They could take these as Cross-class skills... but they only get 2 skill points per level, so the average trooper can only do one thing well or two things half-assedly.

In short, in Warrior and Fighter, we have two classes that ostensibly fill the role of soldiers, but they have great difficulty filling what's required from even the plainest army grunt. Logically, then, armies in D&D 3.5 should not be made out of Warriors or Fighters, but Experts lead by Aristocrats, with elite grunts being Rogues and highest-ranking leaders being Paladins and Bards.

I didn't mean grunts in an entire military organization I meant "grunt" as in the ones resigned to the gruntwork in the party... you know, meat shield duty as well as any heavy lifting the party needs. The fighter in the group almost always gets stuck with this role....

[FujinAkari]

I doubt Frozen Feet is saying anything about a 4ed class in his posts about the 3.5ed Order of the Stick. Somehow.

Warlord is in the Complete Minitures Handbook.

Edit: oh wait, I may be an idiot, I think the Marshal is in Mini's Handbook. It was renamed the Warlord in 4E, but now my snarkiness is much less apt :(

[Kish]

Warlord is in the Complete Minitures Handbook.
Looking at Frozen Feet's latest post, I am just as doubtful that Frozen Feet is saying anything about a Complete Miniatures Handbook class...

...and really, "no, that's not the role of X core class, it's the role of Y obscure-supplement class" isn't significantly better than "...it's the role of Y different-edition class."

[FujinAkari]

...and really, "no, that's not the role of X core class, it's the role of Y obscure-supplement class" isn't significantly better than "...it's the role of Y different-edition class."

Yeah, I mean the strip does stick to Core rules, it isn't like Thog uses alternate class abilities from obscure books like Dungeonscape or anything...

/snarkoff
Seriously though, I agree. The fact that there is a noncore solution to a problem isn't an indication that there is a problem.

[Frozen_Feet]

I didn't mean grunts in an entire military organization I meant "grunt" as in the ones resigned to the gruntwork in the party... you know, meat shield duty as well as any heavy lifting the party needs. The fighter in the group almost always gets stuck with this role....

Irrelevant to my point. In addition to party roles partially dictated by meta-game concerns, each class is also a building block for the setting. Point still stands that the two core "Soldier classes" can't do basic soldiering due to the system's failure to give them proper skills for it.

[Toofey]

This is starting to be a pet peeve of mine. See my signature.

Couldn't V have a higher than 18 Int due to a racial bonus?

[theNater]

Couldn't V have a higher than 18 Int due to a racial bonus?
Standard elves in 3.5 don't get a racial bonus to Int, so it's pretty unlikely.

[windweaver]

I didn't mean grunts in an entire military organization I meant "grunt" as in the ones resigned to the gruntwork in the party... you know, meat shield duty as well as any heavy lifting the party needs. The fighter in the group almost always gets stuck with this role....

That bolded part seems to indicate that even you're aware that there are exceptions.

Here's the deal, lots of people have given you plenty of story and game explanations why Roy has this cross class skill. I'm beginning to wonder if you just wanted to have something to argue about. Were the forums just slow or something?

Regardless I'll throw this out at you, Roy went to Fighter college and in the Order of the Stick verse, fighters are not only good at their jobs (something I keep hearing fighters often aren't in game) but are basically elite soldiers/mercenaries. Mercenaries especially are well known for having to adapt and having all kinds of unusual skills. Look at the character Eliot from Leverage. He's perhaps one of the best fighters in the world, has knowledge of almost every weapons system and military/paramilitary unit in the world, but is also good at and has knowledge about multiple sports, cooking and can sing. Everyone of these skills has been useful on a job in the show at one point or another.

Look at ancient warrior classes. The samurai learned calligraphy, composed poetry and learned tea ceremony. Knights composed songs and poems. A warrior can't be a warrior ALL the time.

Colleges in general are geared toward trying to give students as wide a breadth of knowledge as possible. Roy probably thought that knowledge this particular knowledge skill would help him with tactics, strategy, and in a pinch, escape from situations. Considering Roy's personality we can guess that he took it for one or all of the following reasons.

1. He thought it would be practical
2. He enjoys the subject
3. It was an elective that needed filling
4. Roy wanted to prove he could to be well rounded and not end up yet another fighter stereotype.

[PetterTomBos]

Actually, this could be a sign of clever character-making.

I mean, say you had to be a straight fighter with Roy's scores ('cos of father issues) Wouldn't it be wise to at least have a rank in all the knowledge skills, in order to be able to get a lucky roll?

[ORione]

Couldn't V have a higher than 18 Int due to a racial bonus?

No. theNater explained why.

However, V could have increased intelligence higher than 18, so may very well have intelligence higher than 18.

This isn't relevant. At the time relevant to my link, V explicitly had 18 intelligence (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html).

[Psyren]

This is starting to be a pet peeve of mine. See my signature.

Roy's Int is lower than V's.

Roy's Int + Wis are not necessarily lower than V's Int + Wis.

[Gift Jeraff]

Roy's Int is lower than V's.

Roy's Int + Wis are not necessarily lower than V's Int + Wis.Um, she knows. The link in her sig even says Roy has a very good Wis whereas V has moderate Wisdom. :smallconfused:

[Toofey]

The characters were ported in from 2nd ed though, V could have the adjustment as a legacy stat. (I know I know, I'm grasping at straws here) If I had to guess I would say that V's wisdom is closer to average than moderate.

[BlackestOfMages]

The characters were ported in from 2nd ed though, V could have the adjustment as a legacy stat. (I know I know, I'm grasping at straws here) If I had to guess I would say that V's wisdom is closer to average than moderate.

no, they weren't :smallconfused: the only joke we get is them changing from 3.0 to 3.5, not 2nd ed...

[dps]

Even today, engineering is one of the most encouraged majors for military officers in most countries.

A lot of people don't realize this, but the U.S. Military Academy is an engineering school. If you graduate from West Point, your degree is in engineering--this is true of most military academies AFAIK It's entirely reasonable to assume that the "fighter school" Roy went to was similar.

[theNater]

The characters were ported in from 2nd ed though, V could have the adjustment as a legacy stat. (I know I know, I'm grasping at straws here) If I had to guess I would say that V's wisdom is closer to average than moderate.
Whether V could have gotten a bonus of some kind or other from somewhere is irrelevant, because in the very strip where the mind flayer goes after Roy, V says "I am a wizard! A delectable 18 Intelligence right before you!" Unless you believe V was leaving out a bonus in hopes of looking dumber, that pretty well settles things.

[Kish]

no, they weren't :smallconfused: the only joke we get is them changing from 3.0 to 3.5, not 2nd ed...
Also, what adjustment? In 2ed, as in 3ed, elves had +Dexterity, -Constitution, nothing either way to Intelligence (or Wisdom, for that matter). S/he is not a gnome.

(The difference between 2ed and 3ed is that the 2ed shift in each stat was one point, not two.)

[Dr.Epic]

I'm still baffled he did. It's implied by this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html) that he doesn't have all his in-class skilled maxed, so why would start investing in cross-class, and of all the cross-class, knowledge (architecture and engineering)?

[wiimanclassic]

I'm still baffled he did. It's implied by this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html) that he doesn't have all his in-class skilled maxed, so why would start investing in cross-class, and of all the cross-class, knowledge (architecture and engineering)?

Because fighters have crap for class skills? That and being to tell if a cave in is going to happen can be useful.

[Kish]

I'm still baffled he did. It's implied by this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html) that he doesn't have all his in-class skilled maxed, so why would start investing in cross-class, and of all the cross-class, knowledge (architecture and engineering)?
Because he's a person, not an optimization sheet?

[paladinofshojo]

Because he's a person, not an optimization sheet?

I am seriously wondering why everyone on this thread keeps on hiding behind that same line to justify something. There's a fine line between expressing individuality and spending valuable time and energy on learning skills that are useless in the field of work you've chosen. Seriously, how many people in the real world who are hellbent on becoming a lawyer decide to randomly take a class like anatomy?

It's as if people are somehow forgetting that real life has a certain level of optimization as well. All people are mentally and physically specialized to their lifestyle, occupation, and skill set. So in reality, "people are optimization sheets"

[ORione]

I am seriously wondering why everyone on this thread keeps on hiding behind that same line to justify something. There's a fine line between expressing individuality and spending valuable time and energy on learning skills that are useless in the field of work you've chosen. Seriously, how many people in the real world who are hellbent on becoming a lawyer decide to randomly take a class like anatomy?

It's as if people are somehow forgetting that real life has a certain level of optimization as well. All people are mentally and physically specialized to their lifestyle, occupation, and skill set. So in reality, "people are optimization sheets"

People are still allowed to learn things unrelated to their jobs, and they often do. They're called "hobbies". I personally have a bunch of unrelated skills, and I would be offended if anyone implied I was stupid for learning things that I likely won't use in my career.

And even if they weren't allowed to, people have pointed out that engineering and architecture is useful for a fighter.

[Morty]

Right, of course knowledge of engineering is useless for Roy. I mean, it's not like he could ever use it to defeat an enemy who outclassed him in straight combat...
Oh wait, he just did precisely that.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Right, of course knowledge of engineering is useless for Roy. I mean, it's not like he could ever use it to defeat an enemy who outclassed him in straight combat...
Oh wait, he just did precisely that.

But that's really situational! It's not like he could use it to find the weakest or easiest to climb part of a castle during a siege, or like he knows how to operate a catapult. Ride would be way more useful even he's not using feats on Mounted Combat and only rides mounts for fast land travel!

[Dr.Epic]

Because he's a person, not an optimization sheet?

There's a difference between being a Munchkin and using commonsense. This is just more proof he should multiclass. It's bad enough he has good enough mental stats, but now he invests points into cross-class skills. Seriously, there's a point you just have to realize a straight up fighter sucks at high levels. Plus, riding a horse is probably more valuable. I mean, in the history of the comic, he used ride long before he even used knowledge (architecture and engineering).

[paladinofshojo]

People are still allowed to learn things unrelated to their jobs, and they often do. They're called "hobbies".


Hobbies are things you dabble in as a pastime, springing for cross class ranks is taking a significant interest in that knowledge to the point where it is a defining factor.

[BlackestOfMages]

Hobbies are things you dabble in as a pastime, springing for cross class ranks is taking a significant interest in that knowledge to the point where it is a defining factor.

yeah....no, just plain, strait up no. what you just said is someone with a hobby would never have enough of a hobby to be able to apply it to something. you just said a trainspotter wouldn't be able to identify a train, or a car enthusiast wouldn;t recognise a certain make. or that the guy who works in a shop could never have put in time out of work to learn how to cook well, or they couldn't possibly have had acting or singing coaching because they enjoy it.

newsflash: to have a rank in a skill is not to be it's master. wizard classifies 4 ranks as proffesional level in it even. so anything below 4 would be a.... oh I know, a hobby!

a hell of a lot of people are much more proficent in their hobbies than in their main job. And something like knowledge in architecture and engineering is part of roy's job, since it most activley resorts back to warfare, which is what fighters are fluffed to be good at. wizard just didn't see fit to let them have it, instead giving them skills in jumping.

but then, when you see a comic and can only think of it in terms of optimization, there's no point saying any of this anyway.

[Narren]

I am seriously wondering why everyone on this thread keeps on hiding behind that same line to justify something. There's a fine line between expressing individuality and spending valuable time and energy on learning skills that are useless in the field of work you've chosen. Seriously, how many people in the real world who are hellbent on becoming a lawyer decide to randomly take a class like anatomy?

It's as if people are somehow forgetting that real life has a certain level of optimization as well. All people are mentally and physically specialized to their lifestyle, occupation, and skill set. So in reality, "people are optimization sheets"

Funny example...I actually know a lawyer who minored in astronomy. Why? Because he liked it, and wanted to learn more about it.
<edit - I read astronomy the first time, not anatomy. My mistake.>

Yes, real life is somewhat optimized, but not completely. Not by a long shot. How much do you know about D&D? Does you knowledge of D&D have anything to do with your day job? Mine doesn't. Granted, most of my hobbies ARE directly related to my job, but not all of them. One of my friends studied electrical engineering and ended up working in logistics. I also know plenty of soldiers who smoke and drink....that certainly isn't optimized. Now, an Olympic athlete (someone who really IS optimized) won't do that, but an everyday joe might.

[VanBuren]

There's a difference between being a Munchkin and using commonsense. This is just more proof he should multiclass. It's bad enough he has good enough mental stats, but now he invests points into cross-class skills. Seriously, there's a point you just have to realize a straight up fighter sucks at high levels. Plus, riding a horse is probably more valuable. I mean, in the history of the comic, he used ride long before he even used knowledge (architecture and engineering).

The fact that he effectively used this skill to win against a stronger opponent is evidence that his current strategy doesn't work?

What.

[Zevox]

I'm still baffled he did. It's implied by this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html) that he doesn't have all his in-class skilled maxed, so why would start investing in cross-class, and of all the cross-class, knowledge (architecture and engineering)?
Because when your class skills are as useless or personally uninteresting to you as most Fighter skills are to Roy, cross-class skills are a better investment to begin with. Particularly with Knowledge skills, which can only be used when trained and have a variety of uses even if you don't have a massive maxed-out class-skill level of modifier with them. This was covered before.

Zevox

[Ancalagon]

I'm just curious as to why the fighter of the group needs ranks in any type of nonmartial knowledge....

A character should be more than class, gender, age. This is, for good characters, reflected in their build and every character should have "non-fight" interests.

That's already the end of the mystery.


I am seriously wondering why everyone on this thread keeps on hiding behind that same line to justify something. There's a fine line between expressing individuality and spending valuable time and energy on learning skills that are useless in the field of work you've chosen. Seriously, how many people in the real world who are hellbent on becoming a lawyer decide to randomly take a class like anatomy?

I for example have many skills that have nothing at all to do with my profession. I know martial arts even if I do not have to fight as a job. I know at lot about roleplaying games, movies, I am fairly able in crafting wood and metal - none of that has to do with my primary profession (the "class" if you want it this way).
I know some stuff on plants, I can ride horses, can saw... nothing of that has any use for me in regard to my "class". I know about Lady Gaga or Britney Spears, even if I dislike their music.

I still know these things - and much more - simply because... I know it. That's how "characters" work and RPG characters should work a bit similar. Make more than a cardboard-cutout and it's a better character (I think).

[Silver Coin]

To help his little brother build that castle. :smalltongue:

[Sholos]

I am seriously wondering why everyone on this thread keeps on hiding behind that same line to justify something. There's a fine line between expressing individuality and spending valuable time and energy on learning skills that are useless in the field of work you've chosen. Seriously, how many people in the real world who are hellbent on becoming a lawyer decide to randomly take a class like anatomy?

It's as if people are somehow forgetting that real life has a certain level of optimization as well. All people are mentally and physically specialized to their lifestyle, occupation, and skill set. So in reality, "people are optimization sheets"

Ummmm, it's already been said, but most everyone in college doesn't concentrate solely on their area of study. Almost everyone takes courses just for the heck of it. I'm a Computer Science major and I've taken Accounting, Marketing, Abnormal Psychology, Art of Film, and quite a few other classes, simply because I wanted to (well, okay, and to fill humanity requirements, but I wasn't forced into the classes I took, I got to choose them). At the time I took most of those classes, I was figuring on getting a BS in Physics, actually. How much use does a physicist have for knowledge about how films are made? Not much.


There's a difference between being a Munchkin and using commonsense. This is just more proof he should multiclass. It's bad enough he has good enough mental stats, but now he invests points into cross-class skills. Seriously, there's a point you just have to realize a straight up fighter sucks at high levels. Plus, riding a horse is probably more valuable. I mean, in the history of the comic, he used ride long before he even used knowledge (architecture and engineering).

Actually, I think the fact that Roy hasn't multiclassed (even to a martial prestige class) is a deliberate failing and is meant to highlight his pride in excelling as a single-class fighter. Yes, it's stupid, but tons of very intelligent people do idiotic things because of pride. It's okay for a character to do things like that, especially in a story.

One more thing that I'd like to point out. It's exactly for the reason that people insist fighters should take cross-class skills that things like the Stormwind Fallacy exist. Just saying.

[Kish]

I'm just curious as to why the fighter of the group needs ranks in any type of nonmartial knowledge....

So in reality, "people are optimization sheets"
Wow. You really don't know how to do anything that doesn't relate directly to your job?

[BlackestOfMages]

Wow. You really don't know how to do anything that doesn't relate directly to your job?

it's not his fault he was raised in a sealed environment only to do one thing with his entire life, and forced to understand he's made of cardboard and cannot ever possibly do something other than the one job that's forced into his hands.

though, because he knows nothing about anything else, does that mean he plays DnD as a job? or else he's defeating his own argument by knowing that knowledge (engineering and architecture) is cross class for a fighter, and it's very inneficient for roy not to have multi-classed.

[Zmflavius]

I am seriously wondering why everyone on this thread keeps on hiding behind that same line to justify something. There's a fine line between expressing individuality and spending valuable time and energy on learning skills that are useless in the field of work you've chosen. Seriously, how many people in the real world who are hellbent on becoming a lawyer decide to randomly take a class like anatomy?

It's as if people are somehow forgetting that real life has a certain level of optimization as well. All people are mentally and physically specialized to their lifestyle, occupation, and skill set. So in reality, "people are optimization sheets"

When I was in college, I took, along with my major, an unusually large selection of classes in classical history and culture, because I really loved it. My major is useful enough in real life, but the classical history classes are stuff which for me, is completely irrelevant to my job.

On another note, do you have any idea how valuable a lawyer with a medical degree (or any medical knowledge at all, like, say, an interest in anatomy) is in any medical malpractice case? Do you realize that diplomats, especially ambassadors, are essentially glorified bureaucrats who take a marked interest in the countries they serve in? Has it occurred to you that a fighter who needs to take off his shoes to count to twenty is significantly less useful than a fighter who, in addition to being a fighter, can double as a siege engineer?

[Winthur]

I figure that Roy has always been the tactician at heart. He always relied on proper tactics instead of brute force.

It's only natural that he is the one to engineer plans.

[Goosefeather]

I am seriously wondering why everyone on this thread keeps on hiding behind that same line to justify something. There's a fine line between expressing individuality and spending valuable time and energy on learning skills that are useless in the field of work you've chosen. Seriously, how many people in the real world who are hellbent on becoming a lawyer decide to randomly take a class like anatomy?

It's as if people are somehow forgetting that real life has a certain level of optimization as well. All people are mentally and physically specialized to their lifestyle, occupation, and skill set. So in reality, "people are optimization sheets"

Because no-one ever learns a musical instrument, takes up a sport or other physical activity, or takes language classes? No-one ever reads in their spare time, especially about subjects that interest them? No-one ever learns to swim or ride a bike unless they plan on becoming a professional athlete? No-one ever bothers learning to cook to a higher level than that needed to simply not die of starvation? No-one ever gets good at video games unless their career directly involves them? No-one ever takes dance classes? Every single subject you ever took throughout your educational life has been directly geared towards furthering you in your one chosen profession?

If you truly believe that "people are optimization sheets", I feel sorry for you, and suggest you get a hobby or two.

[Snails]

But that's really situational! It's not like he could use it to find the weakest or easiest to climb part of a castle during a siege, or like he knows how to operate a catapult. Ride would be way more useful even he's not using feats on Mounted Combat and only rides mounts for fast land travel!

You are assuming that, say, climbing a castle, is not likely to be important because Roy seems to have spent a fair bit of his time leading a dungeon-crawling adventuring party. But that would argue against having a horse as well -- the adventuring lifestyle is so lethal to horses that many D&D adventurers simply do not bother. OotS is exaggerated with respect to this point for humor, but not to an implausible degree.


It's as if people are somehow forgetting that real life has a certain level of optimization as well. All people are mentally and physically specialized to their lifestyle, occupation, and skill set. So in reality, "people are optimization sheets"

I better tell my CEO to stop running (he is respectably fast) and stop enjoying those childish boardgames when he could be spending more time at his real career. Yes, this sage wisdom I just found on a Forum dedicated to a D&D inspired comic is sure to help him see the light.

How exactly is participating in this discussion furthering your career, paladinofshojo?

[FujinAkari]

Seriously, how many people in the real world who are hellbent on becoming a lawyer decide to randomly take a class like anatomy?

I have a double-major in English and Psychology with a minor in Computer Science, three fields that basically have NOTHING to do with each other...

I'm not sure if you've been to college, but people don't go to college to train for the careers they'll get, they go to college to learn more about whatever interests them. The percentage of people who ACTUALLY end up working in the fields they studied is staggeringly low...

[Hiro Protagonest]

You are assuming that, say, climbing a castle, is not likely to be important because Roy seems to have spent a fair bit of his time leading a dungeon-crawling adventuring party. But that would argue against having a horse as well -- the adventuring lifestyle is so lethal to horses that many D&D adventurers simply do not bother. OotS is exaggerated with respect to this point for humor, but not to an implausible degree.

...I was being sarcastic after the first sentence.

[Snails]

...I was being sarcastic after the first sentence.

<points to die with '1' face up> Hey, we all fail our save once in a blue moon! :smallredface:

[Omnipotent_One]

Roy has more than 2 levels in fighter. Build optimization is pretty much out the window at this point.

[Psyren]

Roy has more than 2 levels in fighter. Build optimization is pretty much out the window at this point.

Ba-zing :smalltongue:

[Gopher]

I don't play DnD, so I'm approaching this from a story perspective.

I think a lot of people are missing the bigger question. Yes, people have skills that don't relate to their profession, but they generally didn't learn them just to prove they could.

Maybe they planned to make a career of it at one point. Maybe they used it in a former profession. Maybe they thought it would be useful in their personal life. Maybe it was forced on them in their studies. Maybe they learned it by accident. Maybe it relates to a personal hobby. Maybe they wanted to be prepared for a specific scenario. Maybe they just think it's interesting and enjoy studying it for its own sake.

Yes, Roy is not an 'optimization sheet' and is allowed to learn things that don't relate to his job. That still leaves the question of why he did, and why he chose architecture/engineering in particular.

The closest thing we've seen to Roy doing construction as a hobby is when he played blocks with his brother in Celestia. As far as I know, there was no other indication that Roy had studied architecture or engineering, and no clue as to his motives for doing so. I grant it's a fairly minor plot point, but Roy's knowledge kind of came out of nowhere.