ShneekeyTheLost
2011-10-05, 05:33 AM
Okay, it's generally accepted that there are some classes that just... well... how shall I put this?
They got hit by the nerf bat, hooked up to the lolcopter by the FailChain and dragged down Suck Lane.
And that's... well... unfortunately, in some cases, that's being polite.
In many cases, it requires some extreme optimization just to make them functional.
Well, I'm an extreme optimizer, and I always did love a good challenge. :smallbiggrin:
So what we have here is your typical 'plucky underdog who, despite being made of Fail, can still accomplish something' type of situation. Classes who inherently suck mechanically... able to shine at least once.
Now then, here's how this works:
* My goal is to take every Tier 5 and under class... and find SOME way to make them viable. We're not talking T1 level viable, we're talking more along the lines of 'Can group with Tier 3 classes and still be able to contribute something'.
* Moreso, I'm not going to simply use WBLomancy (ala the Cube), or tricks ANY class can use (i.e. partially charged wands with cross-class ranks in UMD, or Bob). I'm going to be using the class's abilities to pull off some combo or trick that helps them be useful in a fight.
* I'm well aware that, even with this level of optmization, there are other classes who can do it better. That's not really the point here. Right now, we're dealing with the bottom of the barrel, the dregs, the unwashed masses... 'competent' is about all we can realistically ask from these guys. What we are doing is making these classes at least playable
* I will be restricting myself to the materials I have at home. No DragonMag content. No 3rd party content. No homebrew. However, unless it's a very obscure source... I've probably got it lying around somewhere.
* Critique and suggestions are always appreciated. Flames and derogatory comments exposing the ignorance of the poster will be pointed to and laughed at. Well... nah, to be honest, they're not worth the effort to point and laugh at, I'll just sic the Mods on 'em.
* I realize that dips can significantly help a class, but often times, the 'base class' can end up BEING the dip, since other classes simply overpower them. Therefore, as a limitation, you can't have more levels in a 'dip' than you have in the 'base Underdog class'.
* No Pathfinder, either in being used, or in helping out.
So, let us begin with the core classes: Fighter, Paladin, and Monk.
Fighter - You'd think that a class whose class features is a whole PILE of feats would... yanno... get some love from splatbooks. But, unfortunately, everyone gets feats, which makes this more watered-down than you'd think. Still, let's see what we can do if we had a hypothetical situation in which we had to build a Fighter with no PrC's and no dipping.
Now then, there are a couple of very good ACF's that do help out the Fighter... Dungeoncrasher and Zhent. Since they cost you almost nothing, other than WAY too many levels of Fighter, almost all builds will be incorporating them.
The Punisher - The first thing that came to mind
Okay, Zhent does intimidation, and Dungeoncrasher does bull rush damage. Well, we've GOT feats to blow, why not blow them?
Our 2nd and 6th level bonus feats go to Dungeoncrasher, and we're also picking up Zhent. Soldier. We're also pick up Thug variant. I figure Shock Trooper and Imperious Command are both natural for this build.
Now then, Shock Trooper gives us a couple of additional things besides the most often used Heedless Charge. Specifically, Domino Rush can be used to Bull Rush (and thus apply dungeoncrasher damage to) multiple opponents in the same action. Directed Bull Rush helps make this happen easier.
So, here's the thing: Fighters fail for three primary reasons: 1) They have trouble bringing it to flying attackers, 2) They have trouble bringing it to things with miss chance, and 3) They have no way of really dishing out good damage while closing with opponents.
Well, as far as #3 goes, there's a solution you can throw a couple of feats at: Sphinx Claws. Hands are a Least chakra, so it can be done by level 6. However, it's with Natural Attacks *ONLY*. Cue Greater Unarmed Strike feat from ToB. As a bonus, Sphinx Claws also give bonuses to Bull Rushing.
Now Flight can be had with a foot-slot equip. But miss chance is harder. Pierce Magical Concealment is an option, but won't come online until later.
So let's look at our feat breakdown, shall we?
1st: Improved Unarmed Strike, Thug variant
2nd: Dungeoncrasher
3rd: Shape Soulmeld: Sphinx Claws, Power Attack (Zhent bonus)
4th: Improved Bull Rush
5th: Extended Intimidation (Zhent)
6th: Open Least Chakra (Hands), Dungeoncrasher
8th: Shock Trooper
9th: Imperious Command, Swift Demoralization (Zhent)
10th: Leap Attack
So, by level 10, we have a character who can:
1) Force a whole room to Cower via Imperious Command + Never Outnumbered + Swift Demoralization
2) Dish out actually viable damage. Dungeoncrasher and Shock Trooper/Leap Attack/Pounce. Dungeoncrasher damage is not weapon-dependent, and shock trooper's damage output is primarily from bonuses anyways.
3) With Gather Information and Knowledge (Local) on his skill list, and extra skill points as well, he's also useful out of combat. If he picks up Urban Tracking at some point, which is a fighter bonus feat for him thanks to Thug, he'll have additional out-of-combat utility.
What he is: Reliable damage dealer. Area-effect lockdown at the start of combat with Swift Demoralize + Imperious Command + Never Outnumbered. From there, he is also single-target lockdown, since he doesn't have anything better to do with his Swift action every round.
What he is not: area-denial. He doesn't have any means of stopping opponents from getting past him, other than bull rushing and knocking them over, or intimidation.
Rating: Tier 4ish. He's got use in and out of combat. He can do his job competently. He can lockdown and deal damage. At the same time.
The Brick - This guy is the one you can't get past. He might not be doing a lot of damage, but he's keeping opponents in place while his allies deal with them
Okay, for this archetype, you need EWP: Spiked Chain, Improved Trip, Imperious Command, and Combat Reflexes. Martial Study (Foehammer) + Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades) Makes it even more difficult to bypass, depending on how you read the wording of the stance (one interpretation is that it even prevents Tumbling).
Feat Breakdown:
1st: EWP: Spiked Chain, Thug variant
2nd: Dungeoncrasher
3rd: Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise (Zhent. bonus)
4th: Improved Trip
5th: Extended Intimidation
6th: Imperious Command, Dungeoncrasher
8th: Martial Study: Foehammer
9th: Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades, Swift Demoralization
10th: Martial Study: Emerald Razor
So by level 10, we have a character who can:
1) Lockdown everything on the first round with Imperious Command + Never Outnumbered + Swift Demoralization. Further rounds are single-target lockdown.
2) Area Denial. No, you're not getting past me. No, not even then. Thicket of Blades + Spiked Chain + Improved Trip + Combat Reflexes.
3) Land a blow on a high AC target with Emerald Razor
What he does: He stops people from going anywhere. As a result, he's also hard to land a blow in melee on, simply because it's hard to close with him without falling on yer rear.
What he does not do: Just about anything else.
Problems with the build: Freedom of Movement pwns him. Opponents with Reach also give him trouble. And he's MAD, needing an Int of 13, as well as needing high Str, Dex, and Con.
Paladin - Holy Warrior with a stick up yer pigu. Unfortunately, they try to do too much at once, and end up failing at everything.
Like the Fighter, they can make a viable dip, but a very poor class for more than two levels, because most of their class abilities... suck. Unlike Fighter, they don't get enough bonus feats to pick up a dribble-drabble of maneuvers and meldshaping to put together something vaguely useful.
Without dips, you don't have many ways to say 'no', and you don't have much in the way of power, although there is a way to make all your spells auto-quickened.
For purposes of these discussions, while you may be allowed to be a kobold, and while pazuzu might in fact hear you out, sarrukhs don't exist. And since we won't be going into Wish exploitation, we won't be going there either.
Now then, a Paladin does have Turn Undead, and since his Cleric levels are hit with a pretty hard nerf-bat, there's no reason to NOT use them on Divine feats.
Now then, his Mount is also generally a lackluster class feature, but there are things you can trade it out for, and there may be ways to get some very nasty mounts. Assistance on this is requested.
Monk - Mutually exclusive jumble of class abilities that ends up failing.
On paper, Monk seems pretty cool. I mean, their bare fists can do as much damage as a Greatsword, or even more! They're real speed demons too! All three high saving throws, and Evasion to back it up! Flurry of Blows to hit a bunch of times!
But the problems are as follows: Your class abilities are mutually exclusive. You have great speed, but if you do more than take a 5' step, you can't Flurry. You only have a 3/4 BAB, and several things that reduce your attack bonus, which generally is why the class ability is called 'Flurry of Misses'.
In short, it's moderately inconvenient to affect you, but it's also nearly impossible for you to affect anything else, which means you're generally ignored in combat.
So, Magic of Incarnum has at least one solution for you, although it is feat intensive: Sphinx Claws. It only works with natural attacks which... hey... is pretty much your shtick. This alone gives you a MAJOR boost, because it re-enables Flurry, and lets it synergize with your high move rate. It's two feats... but it's also probably the best two-feat investment you can make.
You also have the Fighter's problem of dealing with Flying attackers and dealing with miss chance.
So let's see how we can do this:
Falling Hammer Style-designed to hit hard, and hit fast
Take the Overwhelming Attack variant from the SRD. It gives you Power Attack and Improved Bull Rush. Now you have everything you need to set up Shock Trooper for level 9.
Now then, Shape Soulmeld can be taken at 1st level, so that's when we pick up Sphinx Claws, although they aren't too useful until level 6, when you Open Least Chakra (Hand) for pounce.
This leaves our 3rd level feat slot open. Personally, since you don't really meet the requirements for anything else, I'd go with Flying Kick from CWar. When charging, your unarmed attack does an extra d12 damage. Well, since we are now making a full attack on a charge, that's an extra average of 6.5 damage per hit. That's hard to pass up.
At level 12, you're probably going to pick up Snap Kick. Simply because more attacks = more better. Another option would be Shape Soulmeld: Bluesteel bracers. Initiative and bonus attack and damage? Score. Improved Natural Attack is also an option here, but it would only increase your natural attacks from 2d6 to 3d6 (or from 2d8 to 3d8 if you have a Monk's Belt on). That's only 1d6 difference, wheras Flying Kick is 1d12.
Finding a way to get Divine Power on you is going to significantly improve your ability. For that matter, so would finding a method of size increase. However, neither one is going to be easy to obtain.
This document is a Work In Progress. I highly encourage the fellow Forumites to post builds here which helps utilize the underdogs.
They got hit by the nerf bat, hooked up to the lolcopter by the FailChain and dragged down Suck Lane.
And that's... well... unfortunately, in some cases, that's being polite.
In many cases, it requires some extreme optimization just to make them functional.
Well, I'm an extreme optimizer, and I always did love a good challenge. :smallbiggrin:
So what we have here is your typical 'plucky underdog who, despite being made of Fail, can still accomplish something' type of situation. Classes who inherently suck mechanically... able to shine at least once.
Now then, here's how this works:
* My goal is to take every Tier 5 and under class... and find SOME way to make them viable. We're not talking T1 level viable, we're talking more along the lines of 'Can group with Tier 3 classes and still be able to contribute something'.
* Moreso, I'm not going to simply use WBLomancy (ala the Cube), or tricks ANY class can use (i.e. partially charged wands with cross-class ranks in UMD, or Bob). I'm going to be using the class's abilities to pull off some combo or trick that helps them be useful in a fight.
* I'm well aware that, even with this level of optmization, there are other classes who can do it better. That's not really the point here. Right now, we're dealing with the bottom of the barrel, the dregs, the unwashed masses... 'competent' is about all we can realistically ask from these guys. What we are doing is making these classes at least playable
* I will be restricting myself to the materials I have at home. No DragonMag content. No 3rd party content. No homebrew. However, unless it's a very obscure source... I've probably got it lying around somewhere.
* Critique and suggestions are always appreciated. Flames and derogatory comments exposing the ignorance of the poster will be pointed to and laughed at. Well... nah, to be honest, they're not worth the effort to point and laugh at, I'll just sic the Mods on 'em.
* I realize that dips can significantly help a class, but often times, the 'base class' can end up BEING the dip, since other classes simply overpower them. Therefore, as a limitation, you can't have more levels in a 'dip' than you have in the 'base Underdog class'.
* No Pathfinder, either in being used, or in helping out.
So, let us begin with the core classes: Fighter, Paladin, and Monk.
Fighter - You'd think that a class whose class features is a whole PILE of feats would... yanno... get some love from splatbooks. But, unfortunately, everyone gets feats, which makes this more watered-down than you'd think. Still, let's see what we can do if we had a hypothetical situation in which we had to build a Fighter with no PrC's and no dipping.
Now then, there are a couple of very good ACF's that do help out the Fighter... Dungeoncrasher and Zhent. Since they cost you almost nothing, other than WAY too many levels of Fighter, almost all builds will be incorporating them.
The Punisher - The first thing that came to mind
Okay, Zhent does intimidation, and Dungeoncrasher does bull rush damage. Well, we've GOT feats to blow, why not blow them?
Our 2nd and 6th level bonus feats go to Dungeoncrasher, and we're also picking up Zhent. Soldier. We're also pick up Thug variant. I figure Shock Trooper and Imperious Command are both natural for this build.
Now then, Shock Trooper gives us a couple of additional things besides the most often used Heedless Charge. Specifically, Domino Rush can be used to Bull Rush (and thus apply dungeoncrasher damage to) multiple opponents in the same action. Directed Bull Rush helps make this happen easier.
So, here's the thing: Fighters fail for three primary reasons: 1) They have trouble bringing it to flying attackers, 2) They have trouble bringing it to things with miss chance, and 3) They have no way of really dishing out good damage while closing with opponents.
Well, as far as #3 goes, there's a solution you can throw a couple of feats at: Sphinx Claws. Hands are a Least chakra, so it can be done by level 6. However, it's with Natural Attacks *ONLY*. Cue Greater Unarmed Strike feat from ToB. As a bonus, Sphinx Claws also give bonuses to Bull Rushing.
Now Flight can be had with a foot-slot equip. But miss chance is harder. Pierce Magical Concealment is an option, but won't come online until later.
So let's look at our feat breakdown, shall we?
1st: Improved Unarmed Strike, Thug variant
2nd: Dungeoncrasher
3rd: Shape Soulmeld: Sphinx Claws, Power Attack (Zhent bonus)
4th: Improved Bull Rush
5th: Extended Intimidation (Zhent)
6th: Open Least Chakra (Hands), Dungeoncrasher
8th: Shock Trooper
9th: Imperious Command, Swift Demoralization (Zhent)
10th: Leap Attack
So, by level 10, we have a character who can:
1) Force a whole room to Cower via Imperious Command + Never Outnumbered + Swift Demoralization
2) Dish out actually viable damage. Dungeoncrasher and Shock Trooper/Leap Attack/Pounce. Dungeoncrasher damage is not weapon-dependent, and shock trooper's damage output is primarily from bonuses anyways.
3) With Gather Information and Knowledge (Local) on his skill list, and extra skill points as well, he's also useful out of combat. If he picks up Urban Tracking at some point, which is a fighter bonus feat for him thanks to Thug, he'll have additional out-of-combat utility.
What he is: Reliable damage dealer. Area-effect lockdown at the start of combat with Swift Demoralize + Imperious Command + Never Outnumbered. From there, he is also single-target lockdown, since he doesn't have anything better to do with his Swift action every round.
What he is not: area-denial. He doesn't have any means of stopping opponents from getting past him, other than bull rushing and knocking them over, or intimidation.
Rating: Tier 4ish. He's got use in and out of combat. He can do his job competently. He can lockdown and deal damage. At the same time.
The Brick - This guy is the one you can't get past. He might not be doing a lot of damage, but he's keeping opponents in place while his allies deal with them
Okay, for this archetype, you need EWP: Spiked Chain, Improved Trip, Imperious Command, and Combat Reflexes. Martial Study (Foehammer) + Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades) Makes it even more difficult to bypass, depending on how you read the wording of the stance (one interpretation is that it even prevents Tumbling).
Feat Breakdown:
1st: EWP: Spiked Chain, Thug variant
2nd: Dungeoncrasher
3rd: Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise (Zhent. bonus)
4th: Improved Trip
5th: Extended Intimidation
6th: Imperious Command, Dungeoncrasher
8th: Martial Study: Foehammer
9th: Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades, Swift Demoralization
10th: Martial Study: Emerald Razor
So by level 10, we have a character who can:
1) Lockdown everything on the first round with Imperious Command + Never Outnumbered + Swift Demoralization. Further rounds are single-target lockdown.
2) Area Denial. No, you're not getting past me. No, not even then. Thicket of Blades + Spiked Chain + Improved Trip + Combat Reflexes.
3) Land a blow on a high AC target with Emerald Razor
What he does: He stops people from going anywhere. As a result, he's also hard to land a blow in melee on, simply because it's hard to close with him without falling on yer rear.
What he does not do: Just about anything else.
Problems with the build: Freedom of Movement pwns him. Opponents with Reach also give him trouble. And he's MAD, needing an Int of 13, as well as needing high Str, Dex, and Con.
Paladin - Holy Warrior with a stick up yer pigu. Unfortunately, they try to do too much at once, and end up failing at everything.
Like the Fighter, they can make a viable dip, but a very poor class for more than two levels, because most of their class abilities... suck. Unlike Fighter, they don't get enough bonus feats to pick up a dribble-drabble of maneuvers and meldshaping to put together something vaguely useful.
Without dips, you don't have many ways to say 'no', and you don't have much in the way of power, although there is a way to make all your spells auto-quickened.
For purposes of these discussions, while you may be allowed to be a kobold, and while pazuzu might in fact hear you out, sarrukhs don't exist. And since we won't be going into Wish exploitation, we won't be going there either.
Now then, a Paladin does have Turn Undead, and since his Cleric levels are hit with a pretty hard nerf-bat, there's no reason to NOT use them on Divine feats.
Now then, his Mount is also generally a lackluster class feature, but there are things you can trade it out for, and there may be ways to get some very nasty mounts. Assistance on this is requested.
Monk - Mutually exclusive jumble of class abilities that ends up failing.
On paper, Monk seems pretty cool. I mean, their bare fists can do as much damage as a Greatsword, or even more! They're real speed demons too! All three high saving throws, and Evasion to back it up! Flurry of Blows to hit a bunch of times!
But the problems are as follows: Your class abilities are mutually exclusive. You have great speed, but if you do more than take a 5' step, you can't Flurry. You only have a 3/4 BAB, and several things that reduce your attack bonus, which generally is why the class ability is called 'Flurry of Misses'.
In short, it's moderately inconvenient to affect you, but it's also nearly impossible for you to affect anything else, which means you're generally ignored in combat.
So, Magic of Incarnum has at least one solution for you, although it is feat intensive: Sphinx Claws. It only works with natural attacks which... hey... is pretty much your shtick. This alone gives you a MAJOR boost, because it re-enables Flurry, and lets it synergize with your high move rate. It's two feats... but it's also probably the best two-feat investment you can make.
You also have the Fighter's problem of dealing with Flying attackers and dealing with miss chance.
So let's see how we can do this:
Falling Hammer Style-designed to hit hard, and hit fast
Take the Overwhelming Attack variant from the SRD. It gives you Power Attack and Improved Bull Rush. Now you have everything you need to set up Shock Trooper for level 9.
Now then, Shape Soulmeld can be taken at 1st level, so that's when we pick up Sphinx Claws, although they aren't too useful until level 6, when you Open Least Chakra (Hand) for pounce.
This leaves our 3rd level feat slot open. Personally, since you don't really meet the requirements for anything else, I'd go with Flying Kick from CWar. When charging, your unarmed attack does an extra d12 damage. Well, since we are now making a full attack on a charge, that's an extra average of 6.5 damage per hit. That's hard to pass up.
At level 12, you're probably going to pick up Snap Kick. Simply because more attacks = more better. Another option would be Shape Soulmeld: Bluesteel bracers. Initiative and bonus attack and damage? Score. Improved Natural Attack is also an option here, but it would only increase your natural attacks from 2d6 to 3d6 (or from 2d8 to 3d8 if you have a Monk's Belt on). That's only 1d6 difference, wheras Flying Kick is 1d12.
Finding a way to get Divine Power on you is going to significantly improve your ability. For that matter, so would finding a method of size increase. However, neither one is going to be easy to obtain.
This document is a Work In Progress. I highly encourage the fellow Forumites to post builds here which helps utilize the underdogs.