[PF] Monk's unarmed damage after 20?

[Dyroth]

Ok, have a question for the general public here. According to the Pathfinder Core Rulebook for dealing with epic levels:
Class abilities that have a set, increasing rate, such as a barbarian's damage reduction, a fighter's bonus feats and weapon training, a paladin's smite evil, or a rogue's sneak attack continue to progress at the appropriate rate.
The question, does this include Monk's unarmed damage? The way I read it, that would be the case, and with the inclusion of the Monk's Robe and other items/feats this is going to become an issue for my character well before he hits level 20.

Also, related to this, does anyone have a source for how the dice would progress beyond 2d10?

Thanks.

[CTrees]

The default answer is: "it doesn't keep increasing." Monk unarmed strike damage (per the SRD, at least) did not progress past lvl20 in 3.5, after all.

EDIT: Judging by the pattern given, it doesn't *quite* work with the weapon size increases, and natural attack size increase don't help with the 2d10 sitting there. Further, looking at the growth of the increases to average damage by level, it really starts to break down in regards to what you can do with standard dice, at higher levels. If I was dealing with an epic monk, I'd go with 3d8 at 24, 3d10 at 28, 3d12 at 32, 5d8 at 36, 4d12 at 40, and *maybe* 9d6 at 44. After that... why the heck are you playing a monk!?!

[Dyroth]

The default answer is: "it doesn't keep increasing." Monk unarmed strike damage (per the SRD, at least) did not progress past lvl20 in 3.5, after all.

But there are a lot of differences between how things are handled in 3.5 and in PF. Just because that was how it was written in 3.5 doesn't necessarily mean that is how PF deals with it when there isn't a specific rule stating that.

[CTrees]

First, see my edit (work got in the way).

Second, the quote starts "Class abilities that have a set, increasing rate." This is not true of monk unarmed strike damage - it increases, but at an increasing rate, not easily modeled with standard dice.

[Mr.Bookworm]

First, see my edit (work got in the way).

Second, the quote starts "Class abilities that have a set, increasing rate." This is not true of monk unarmed strike damage - it increases, but at an increasing rate, not easily modeled with standard dice.

"Every 4 levels" is hard to model? The Monk unarmed strike increases at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th levels.

So, yeah, I'd roll with that.


Also, related to this, does anyone have a source for how the dice would progress beyond 2d10?

Monk unarmed strike is screwy. It doesn't follow the rules for progression of natural attack.

I'd go to 3d8 at 24th level, and then go 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8, which puts you back on the actual track.

If your DM lets you do that track, make sure to snag Improved Natural Attack to bump it up one step on the track.

[CTrees]

"Every 4 levels" is hard to model? The Monk unarmed strike increases at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th levels.

Monk unarmed strike is screwy. It doesn't follow the rules for progression of natural attack.

You don't see the conflict between these two?

No, every four levels is not difficult. However, the damage dealt, because it IS screwy, is the tough part. Average damage increases by 1 at lvl4 and 8, by 1.5 at lvl12, and by 2 at lvl 16 and 20. Max is +2/+2/+2/+4/+4. Neither of these follow the same progression as natural attacks or weapon size increases. It's not *that* screwy to work out a rough formula for, but coming up with the dice for it, from a standard seven die set, is the hard part. Do note that PF's clause for epic progressions doesn't say something like "if one part of a class feature increases at a set rate, and the other part of that feature increases at an awkward, non-linear rate, just wing it."

[Psyren]

PF provides scanty support at best for post-20 play. They believe (rightfully) that the game tends to fall apart when you get that high. Bottom line is you'll have to homebrew something.

You can always start adding on lower-level dice, looping the progression over and over as necessary. For instance, after 2d10, do 2d10 + 1d6, then advance the second set of dice accordingly. (2d10 + 1d8, 3d10, 2d10 + 2d6 etc.)