Sorcerer//Druid

[Saviour]

Hi all.

I have been invited to a 3.5 gestalt game, where I'll be playing a charisma based Druid//Sorcerer. We start off at low levels, and the idea is to go into Geomancer on the Sorcerer side to make him really naturey. That's subject to change, of course.

What I would like the playground's input on, mainly, is spell selection for the sorcerer. Druid is full caster, so that will allow much more freedom in the choice of Sorcerer spells. Because I haven't played a sorcerer before, though, I'm not entirely sure where to begin with all that freedom. I've read a few sorcerer handbooks, but they have not had any tips for gestalt. Mainly, my questions are these: Will Natural Spell work with arcane spells? I seem to remember hearing somewhere it does not, but can not find any support for this in raw. (Main appeal of Geomancer is making all the sorc spells divine at will) Secondly, are there any sorc spells that become better candidates for spells Known when gestalting/wildshaping?

Suggested feats beyond Natural Spell would also be appreciated. I might trade away the familiar for an extra feat, but beyond that, I think flaws are going to be a no-no. I think an LA or two will be given out for free, however.

So... Any suggestions would be appreciated. Nothing game breaking (for gestalt), of course.

Evil not allowed.

[gkathellar]

Will Natural Spell work with arcane spells?

Yes. Natural spell lets you perform verbal, somatic and material components as normal, which is the only limitation on spellcasting in Wild Shape.


Secondly, are there any sorc spells that become better candidates for spells Known when gestalting/wildshaping?

Focus on things Sorcerers and Wizards can do that Druids can't — illusion, enchantment and some transmutation effects in particular come to mind. Make sure to get Contingency.


Suggested feats beyond Natural Spell would also be appreciated. I might trade away the familiar for an extra feat, but beyond that, I think flaws are going to be a no-no.

Grab a level of Sacred Exorcist on the Sorcerer side, get DMM and Persistent Spell, then go to town (as long as you don't use Nightsticks, it's not all that excessive). Also, think about going Mage of the Arcane Order (or IotSV/Incantatrix depending on your definition of game-breaking) with your remaining sorcerer levels — and if so, obviously pick up their feat requirements.


I think an LA or two will be given out for free, however.

If you hate your DM, see if you can go Saint. Otherwise, the Shadow template is an excellent bet, with tons of very nice scaling abilities and nothing too crazy.

EDIT: You might want to grab Sanctum Spell or Precocious Apprentice for earlier entry into Geomancer. Maybe. It would definitely be worth it if you could get in at 2nd level, but alas, skill requirements.

[Psyren]

Phrenic is also nice if you have free LA, especially with your Cha-focus. Geomancer is great in gestalt, so you should stick with it - especially since you can use it to make yourself nearly SAD.

Another option is to swap your Sorc casting to Wis, as you can then make use of the extremely powerful Owl's Insight buff from SpC. Cha will likely be more useful though as you can apply it to nearly anything (see the X stat to Y bonus thread). Be sure to PrC out of Sorcerer as soon as possible.

[Keld Denar]

I agree. Geomancer is actually REALLY fun in gestalt. On top of the normal Arcane/Divine crossover flux thingy, the drifts are a riot. Funny story, nothing says you don't retain your drifts while Wildshaped. So you could turn into say...a Dire Lion, and combine the Constrict drift with your Improved Grab ability and Dire Lion Str score and your scorpion stinger. You'll create some really awkward looking animals, but thats half three-quarters of the fun!

MANBEARPIG LIVES!

[Gnaeus]

Alternately, see if he will allow Arcane Hierophant if it only advances casting on one side. Having an intelligent T Rex with improved evasion and spell resistance that can speak and UMD is pretty cool.

[gbprime]

Another option is to take the non-wildshape druid, the one that gets WIS to AC like a monk does, and then take Mystic Wanderer (Magic of Faerun) on the druid side of the build to stack CHA to AC on it too.

As far as spells go, take the Searing Spell feat. Adds 1 level to a Fire Spell, but allows it to ignore Fire Resistance entirely, and deal half damage to Fire Immune targets. Both sorcerer and druid spell lists have some excellent fire spells to tweak with this feat.

If you go that route, Sorcerer picks include Combust, Scorching Ray, Fireball, and Blast of Flame, and Mass Fire Shield is truly your friend here. You can also expect to charge up Fire Seeds and Firestorm on the Druid side.

And don't forget your summoning feats. Get the one that makes your summoned critters show up with a buff spell already in effect (Dont' have my books with me, sorry), and have dire critters with untyped-energy fire shields swamp the enemy. :smallamused:

[DonutBoy12321]

If at all possible, PrC into IotSV, for the overall scary Scorpion Stingered Dire Lion with an aura of Blue protecting him from spells.

[DeAnno]

It's a very interesting gestalt, as Sorcerer and Druid are two of the very best classes for close to medium range combat. Whatever else you do, I'd strongly recommend Arcane Spellsurge and (Greater) Arcane Fusion to massively cheapen the action cost of spells on your Sorcerer side. The seriously hard control of Wall of Force + Flashflood (Druid 8, Sandstorm) is very effective too.

[Fouredged Sword]

Take wings of cover. Nice spell, easy on the action economy. Druids do battlefield control very nicely.

A summoning focus could go very nicely. You have enough spell slots to really throw around some critters. SNA and SM spells fill almost any need. Just devote one spell known per level to a summon on the sorcerer side, and you can summon any level of critter easily.

See if you can use versatile spell caster to SNA one level higher than your highest spell slot. It is a little cheese, but not so much that it is bad in a gestalt game. You will have the slots to throw around.

[The Underlord]

The fey haritage feat fey blood the giant made would serve you well. it makes your druid stuff based of charisma instead of wisdom so it would relieve the MADness of it.

[gkathellar]

The fey haritage feat fey blood the giant made would serve you well. it makes your druid stuff based of charisma instead of wisdom so it would relieve the MADness of it.

Geomancers don't have MAD problems, as they can key all of their spells to one casting stat.

[Saviour]

Thanks for the advise, guys.

So, the group is looking fairly unoptimized for gestalt. With that in mind, how is this:

Half-Fey Human
Druid 20//Sorc3/Geomancer10/????
Feats:
Human: Iron Will (Prereq for RoS),
Lvl1: Precoucious Apprentice (Allowing entry into Geomancer at Sorc 3 instead of Sorc 4),
Lvl3:Reserves of Strength (Can increase caster level and max caster level of spells by stunning myself for up to three rounds after casting),
Flaw (No Familiar): Versatile Spellcasting, or possibly Charmed Life (One reroll on anything/day)

Level 3 for now. Charisma 22, but sadly no Divine Grace or similar within sight, so saves will be depressingly reasonable. I could have started with Pally 2 (Alignment restrictions waved), but Sorc is already one level behind the wizards...

[gkathellar]

Hm. If you really want that Divine Grace, you can grab a level of Sacred Exorcist and two or three of Prestige Paladin. You'll lose one level of sorcerer casting, but it'll net you Turn Undead, Divine Grace and a couple of other nifty bonuses.

You could fill out the last four levels with Mage of the Arcane Order, which will get you Spellpool II for most of the utility you could potentially need. Dropping Precocious Apprentice for Sanctum Spell helps you meet the prerequisites for MotAO more easily (though if you go DMM, you'll probably have metamagic feats anyway).

Maybe Druid 20//Sorcerer 3/Geomancer 10/Sacred Exorcist 1/Prestige Paladin 2/Mage of the Arcane Order 4? EDIT: Only if you can ignore either the Druid's or the Prestige Paladin's alignment prerequisite.

[Half-orc Bard]

i'd play a Sorcerer//Spirit Shaman and take that one feat that lets your spirit shaman key off of cha for bonus spells, and DCs this will make you much less MAD

[Elric VIII]

Hm. If you really want that Divine Grace, you can grab a level of Sacred Exorcist and two or three of Prestige Paladin. You'll lose one level of sorcerer casting, but it'll net you Turn Undead, Divine Grace and a couple of other nifty bonuses.

You could fill out the last four or five levels with Mage of the Arcane Order, which will get you Spellpool II for most of the utility you could potentially need. Dropping Precocious Apprentice for Sanctum Spell helps you meet the prerequisites for MotAO more easily (though if you go DMM, you'll probably have metamagic feats anyway).

Maybe Druid 20//Sorcerer 3/Geomancer 10/Sacred Exorcist 1/Prestige Paladin 3/Mage of the Arcane Order 4?

Druid cannot qualify for PrC Pally due to alignment restrictions.

However, you can take a level of Hexblade on either side to get Arcane Resistance which adds Cha to saves vs spells. This will net you (presumably) 19th level progression on each side.

[Keld Denar]

You don't get Arcane Resilliance until Hexblade 2, sorry.

[Elric VIII]

You don't get Arcane Resilliance until Hexblade 2, sorry.

Right, can't he go Druid 1/Hexblade 1/Druid 18//Hexblade 1/Sorcerer 19?

Essentially splitting the hexblade levels between sides of the gestalt?

[Dictum Mortuum]

If you want charisma to saves, check the Robilar's Gambit spell from spell compendium.

There's also a vile feat from exemplars of evil or elder evils that grants you charisma to saves as a standard action for 5 rounds.

[Elric VIII]

If you want charisma to saves, check the Robilar's Gambit spell from spell compendium.

Robilar's Gambit is a feat that makes enemies that attack you provoke AoOs.

Perhaps you mean Ruin Delver's Fortune? This is an excellent spell that adds Cha to one save and either Evasion, immunity to fear, or immunity to poison, based on the save that you choose. It also can grant you some temp HP as well, all as an immidate action.

[Dictum Mortuum]

Robilar's Gambit is a feat that makes enemies that attack you provoke AoOs.

Perhaps you mean Ruin Delver's Fortune? This is an excellent spell that adds Cha to one save and either Evasion, immunity to fear, or immunity to poison, based on the save that you choose. It also can grant you some temp HP as well, all as an immidate action.

Damn! You're right, I meant Ruin Delver's Fortune. I've got to get some coffee :P

[Tenebris]

Grab the Shapeshift Druid ACF, so you can shapeshift while you shapeshift :smallwink:

In other words, shapeshift druid forms grant you enhancement bonus to your ability scores. A huge one. Then you cast draconic polymorph to benefit from the new form's strength, plus 8, plus druid's shapeshifting modifier.
EDIT: Remember to take Nonverbal Spell feat.

Remember persistent wraithstrike spell + Power Attack feat. It's a nice combination, very lethal.

[gkathellar]

Druid cannot qualify for PrC Pally due to alignment restrictions.

And that was the sound of me being an idiot. Thanks for catching that. (Also what I presented earlier had one too many levels, which I will edit now).

A one-level Witch-Hunter (from OA) dip can also net you charisma to saves, but qualifying for that class can be a hassle, depending on your build (you need Track). I stand by either getting Sacred Exorcist 1 + MotAO 4 or just IotSV 7 to fill out your build.


Right, can't he go Druid 1/Hexblade 1/Druid 18//Hexblade 1/Sorcerer 19?

He can, but it's probably in his best interests not to. Losing a sorcerer level costs spells, losing a druid level costs spells, wild shape and animal companion strength.


Grab the Shapeshift Druid ACF, so you can shapeshift while you shapeshift :smallwink:

In other words, shapeshift druid forms grant you enhancement bonus to your ability scores. A huge one. Then you cast draconic polymorph to benefit from the new form's strength, plus 8, plus druid's shapeshifting modifier.
EDIT: Remember to take Nonverbal Spell feat.

You cannot cast spells while using the Shapeshift variant, and lose your animal companion. Wild Shape is far superior.


i'd play a Sorcerer//Spirit Shaman and take that one feat that lets your spirit shaman key off of cha for bonus spells, and DCs this will make you much less MAD

Geomancer.

[Tenebris]

You cannot cast spells while using the Shapeshift variant, and lose your animal companion.

Said by whom? I advised him to take Nonverbal Spell. If necessary, you will also have to use Still Spell, but it's possible. Plus I do not find Animal Companion that useful.


Wild Shape is far superior.

Draconic Polymorph is more broken, IMHO...

[gkathellar]

Said by whom? I advised him to take Nonverbal Spell. If necessary, you will also have to use Still Spell, but it's possible. Plus I do not find Animal Companion that useful.

"You cannot cast spells or activate magic items while in shapeshifted form, even if you have the Natural Spell feat or other ability that would allow you to cast spells while wild shaped" (PHB, pg. 40, paragraph 5).*

If you don't find your animal companion useful then you've never used one to its full effectiveness. Fleshraker Dinosaur + Serpentfire + Share Spell Buffs = Win.


Draconic Polymorph is more broken, IMHO...

And Draconic Wild Shape is absolutely ridiculous. Your point?

*EDIT: Before we get into a semantics debate, Polymorph and Wild Shape only prevent you from being able to supply particular components, which is why Nonverbal and Still spells work. Shapeshift Variant explicitly says, "No, you can't," and mentions Natural Spell only as a clarification, not because it needs to. Even if you cut the line, "even if you have the Natural Spell feat or other ability that would allow you to cast spells while wild shaped," it would still work the same by RAW, excluding Nonverbal and Still spells as well.

[Tenebris]

"You cannot cast spells or activate magic items while in shapeshifted form, even if you have the Natural Spell feat or other ability that would allow you to cast spells while wild shaped" (PHB, pg. 40, paragraph 5).

All right, this is true. Shame on me :smallfrown:

Thus you need to drac poly fist, plus other buffs, then shapeshift. Slightly worse option, but still fine. You can also blow spell slots on Spellshield ACF.


And Draconic Wild Shape is absolutely ridiculous.

This is also true. Still, not comparable to draconic polymorph, which:
1) Do not require a feat.
2) Does not limit you to a dragon. And not only to a medium size one.
3) Enhance assumed form's stats.

True, you lack supernatural abilities of the assumed form. If you want them badly, there's a feat for that.


Your point?
My point? Draconic polymorph can substitute your Wildshape in shapeshift build. I know that wildshaping is better than shapeshifting, but I try to take an advantage of both.

[Dictum Mortuum]

(Dragon) Wild Shape is too good to pass. Shapeshift is seriously trash and you don't even need it to own with polymorph, especially since you're using two full casters. Just cast bite of the werebear on you and kill stuff.

[gkathellar]

Thus you need to drac poly fist, plus other buffs, then shapeshift. Slightly worse option, but still fine. You can also blow spell slots on Spellshield ACF.

Why bother with Shapeshift at all, though? It's giving you some pretty respectable bonuses, but prevents you from accessing the considerable offensive spellcasting power associated with being a Sorcerer/Druid.


My point? Draconic polymorph can substitute your Wildshape in shapeshift build. I know that wildshaping is better than shapeshifting, but I try to take an advantage of both.

And again, taking advantage of both prevents you from casting spells and removes your Animal Companion. Right there you've removed the advantages of a Druid//Sorcerer gestalt in favor of a buffed-up melee form — when you can already get a sufficiently buff, longer-duration melee form using Wild Shape.

Not to mention that you have access to a limited number of sorcerer spells known, and spending one on Draconic Polymorph when you already have Wild Shape (already one of the best abilities in the game) is an incredible waste.

[Saviour]

I seem to remember there being a feat somewhere that lets you prepare arcane spells in divine slots and vice versa (So Druid spells in Sorc slots). Does anyone know what feat that might have been?

And also, what are people's opinions on the Reserves of Strength feat? Does it fall under "suboptimal if interpreted one way, broken if interpreted the other"?

[gkathellar]

Reserves of Strength looks like a bad arcane imitation of Wild Surge, honestly. It might be worth it for a character with stunning immunity, since 1d6 or 2d6 backlash damage is paltry, but on top of being kind of awful it comes with a feat tax.

So, yeah, really suboptimal. It would be slightly better if not for the Iron Will prereq, but even then ... eh.

[Demon of Death]

I seem to remember there being a feat somewhere that lets you prepare arcane spells in divine slots and vice versa (So Druid spells in Sorc slots). Does anyone know what feat that might have been?

And also, what are people's opinions on the Reserves of Strength feat? Does it fall under "suboptimal if interpreted one way, broken if interpreted the other"?

Alternative Source Spell? (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Alternative_Source_Spell)

[gkathellar]

That's not how Alternative Source Spell works, and for a 10-level Geomancer, that feat is absolutely useless.

[Draz74]

Dang, now this thread's got me hooked on the idea of building a Sorcerer//Wilder.

[Robs]

Geomancers don't have MAD problems, as they can key all of their spells to one casting stat.

As far as I can tell, geomancers must still prepare spells as normal, spell versatility applies when casting. Meaning, bonus spell slots, and the ability to cast the spell in the first place is still left to the original stat.

That is where the fey feat comes in.

[gkathellar]

As far as I can tell, geomancers must still prepare spells as normal, spell versatility applies when casting. Meaning, bonus spell slots, and the ability to cast the spell in the first place is still left to the original stat.

That is where the fey feat comes in.

On a second look, you're correct. However, said feat is homebrew, so I don't feel comfortable recommending it anyway. Besides which, I'm not sure a few bonus spells are actually worth spending a feat on when the character is getting so many spells per day already.

[Saviour]

Thanks again for the advise so far.

Follow up: The party has just reached level 6. For reasons of intra party balance, Druid//Sorc5/Geomancer is about as powerful as I'm allowed to be, even if I technically qualified when I was picking my classes for fourth level. (That's fine. The campaign is roleplaying heavy, and the combats are mostly quite tame. Turning into a Fleshraker and not using spells has been a perfectly viable tactic for level 5.)

What are good 3rd level sorcerer spells to go with the druid side? Knowstones, I am told, will not exist until the wizard//monk and the cleric//rogue start optimizing. That said, I'd rather be more flexible and hold back than double up on blasting and end up with a Blastraker, (Regardless of how amusing that sounds). :)

[DeAnno]

Perhaps not as much right now, but later on Greater Mighty Wallop + bludgeoning natural weapons (this includes bites) could be fun.

[nedz]

It sounds like this might be a bit late but if you were going down the summoning route with Augment Summoning: choosing Conjuration spells for your Sorceror would allow you to get some utility out of Augment Summoning's pre-req: Spell Focus(Conjuration). Druids get very few Conjurations, but the're a good set of Sorceror spells.

[Fouredged Sword]

Fireball is a crowd pleaser, lightning bolt is also nice, but get one, not both.

Suggestion is a great RP spell. Lots you can do with that.

Haste for you and all your summons.

Ray of exhaustion is a great debuff, slow is likely better though.

Vampiric touch is great to cast while tanking as a fleashraker.

[Saviour]

Hey again. So, I'm finding Wildshape a little disappointing. I know it gets better at later levels, but at 5-6 I haven't really found much beyond the Fleshraker, and with flight in my natural Half-Fey form... What good forms are there, levels 6-8, thereabout? I'm sure it's just me not finding the obvious options.

[Fouredged Sword]

Fleshraker is all you really need. Later you get some other forms, but really Fleshraker lasts you quite a while. Don't so much think overwhelming in of itself, think more of why not.

Also the spell vemonfire. Look it up. It makes Fleshraker quite a bit more powerful.

[Saviour]

Hi again, guys.

I realise I may have bored you a bit with this thread, but I think I should be fine now. We just got bumped up to level 10 for Christmas, and somewhere in those last three levels I seem to have drowned in cheese. (I'm now finding myself having to forego half the nice things I see just to get rid of the looming sensation that the clear sky may start raining rocks.)

While my curiosity is on it, though, how does one become as close to invincible at level 10/11 as possible? If I choose all the nicest things I currently can, I get:
Cave Anklysaurous wildshape for +17 natural armor all day.
Greater Luminous Armor, because we're Good, for +8 armor, up all day for 2d3 strength damage.
Shield, if I see a battle coming, for another +4.
Bite of the Weretiger as my only in combat standard action self buff, for a +5 enhancement bonus to my natural armor, +4 dex, and some other bonuses.
Total AC: 44. Or 35, if there's no time to buff. In either case, there's also the -4 to hit for evil people from GLA.

All Hearts of X, up all day, for all the things they give, and crit immunity because I have all.

Being level ten, the Sorc half only has two level four spells known, but say we make it to level 11, and we could also have:
Ruin Delver's Fortune, for Charisma to a save as an immediate action. An encounter with the Deck of many things and being a Half-Fey has put Charisma at 26 without items, so that's... not insignificant.
Greater Mirror Image, again immediate, but lasting for a while, and providing a a good miss chance against most foes.
Ray Deflection, because pesky enemy spell casters could theoretically have it out for fairies made of cheese.

And lastly, level 11 would also give Antilife Shell on the Druid side. This is all far too powerful to be used in my campaign (put together, at least), but how much further could it be taken? The only thing I see missing is a miss chance from concealment, but I'm sure there's more.

If you have bothered reading through all this, though, can you think of anything to add?

[Fouredged Sword]

I note you lack a conventional miss chance. Pick up a nice blur effect of some kind. It stacks with mirror images and makes it more effective (more unlikely that something dispels a image by striking it.

[Dictum Mortuum]

blur or displacement will do the job. Also take a look at greater mirror image. It's immediate action and all kinds of awesome.