Claw and Fist

[marcielle]

OK, I'm building an Ardent with Tashalatora and going for Diamond Dragon PrC, which gives me a pair of claw attacks and a ton of questions. Would that become my primary weapon? Would I get to use both claws AND flurry on a full attack? Would the claws use my unarmed damage? Would this be awesome?

[Keld Denar]

Iterative attacks are ALWAYS primary. Period. Since UASs are iterative weapons, they are primary. That makes your claws secondary. Note: Claws are NOT "special Monk weapons", and thus can not be used in conjunction with a Flurry of Blows. You either make your normal iteratives + claws or you make your Flurry without claws. At low levels, the claws will probably be better, but once you hit 11 and get Greater Flurry, the UASs will be more favorable.

And no, your claws would do whatever damage Diamond Dragon tells you they do. They are seperate attacks. A shortsword doesn't deal longsword damage just because you are holding a longsword in your other hand. Same with UASs and natural weapons.

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok, unarmed strikes are somewhat weird thing. They are both normal and natural weapons.

This means you can do one of two things.

First you can set a claw as a primary weapon, allowing you to make secondary attacks with your other claw and unarmed strike at -5 (-2 with multiattack)

Or you can use your unarmed strike as a normal weapon and make two claw attacks as secondary attacks at -5 (-2 with multiattack). You get full iterative with your unarmed strike.

You get to add your full strength to the damage of your primary weapon and 1/2 your strength to the damage of all secondary attacks.

NOTE - if you get any other natural attacks you get to add them to your attacks as secondary attacks.

[Fax Celestis]

There's an Eberron feat somewhere that lets you choose a weapon and treat it as a special monk weapon. Monastic Training or Unorthodox Schooling or something. If you do that, you can make your claws into monk weapons and thereby flurry with them.

The question comes down to, in that instance, do you unarmed strike your flurry and then tack on your claws as secondaries, or do you throw your claws into the routine?

[Keld Denar]

You can only have one primary attack. That primary attack ALWAYS gives priority to manufactured weapons (well, any weapon that uses iteratives, including UASs). After that, anything that isn't that weapon (or set of weapons, in the case of a pair of claws or brace of tentacles) is secondary.

[Fax Celestis]

So without Rapidstrike shenanigans, the feat'd basically let you add your claws to a flurry routine. Cool. Strangely, Rapidstrike'd actually make it worse.

[marcielle]

I wanted to know if I could flurry and then tack on claws as secondary attacks but it doesn't look like I can so I gues I'm going Metamind instead of Diamond Dragon. Thanks for the quick replies.

[Fax Celestis]

You can, it just takes a feat.

[Fouredged Sword]

Natural weapons are already monk weapons. You can add your claw attacks to your full attack routine as -5 to hit secondary attacks at no penalty.

[Fax Celestis]

Natural weapons are already monk weapons. You can add your claw attacks to your full attack routine as -5 to hit secondary attacks at no penalty.

No they are not.


When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1½ or ×½) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.

[NeoSeraphi]

There's an Eberron feat called Beast Claw Strike (iirc). It allows you to add your claw or slam damage to your unarmed strike damage. Take that, flurry with your unarmed strikes, and get your claw damage without even needing to make additional attack rolls.

[kardar233]

That would be the Beast Strike feat from Dragon 355.

[NeoSeraphi]

That would be the Beast Strike feat from Dragon 355.

That's the one! Yeah, so you use that feat to optimize your claws, and there you go.

[marcielle]

OK...looking at rapid strike, I might as well just use the extra attack for a single unarmed strike , which will do more damage than both claws put together.

[Keld Denar]

Well, you probably don't qualify for Rapid Strike. You have to be an Elemental, Dragon, Plant, or Aberration. Elans qualify, and so do Synad and Dragonwraught Kobolds, but very little else on a +0 LA chassis.