use magic device question!

[beskargam]

in the description of umd it says that you can make a dc 20 check to emulate a class feature. in the text it says you emulate the desired class feature of a level equal to your check minus 20. so,question, one can i use umd to emulate having a level of the class? not just the class feature.

more specifically i want to use umd to emulate having one level of monk, to use sparring dummy of the master. i have a swift hunter build planned and i would like to see a way to make that 5ft step into a 10 footer. so can umd be used like that or no?

the only other thing i was looking at was using a dc 40 tumble check to move 10 ft......but the campaign is low on magic (both items and casters) and getting that 40 dc without help will be rather difficult (unless you all can help me out there too, and no item familiar is not on the table)

[ericgrau]

Emulate a Class Feature
Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature.

You cannot UMD emulate sparring dummy of the master to get into a PrC, only to activate a magic item that requires it.

[beskargam]

my apologies if i was unclear, i want to umd sparring dummy of the master to get the benefit of SDoM. Move 10 ft as a 5ft step....

i use this in conjunction with a swift hunter build to move 10ft to activate skirmish......

I'm trying to find a way to reliably activate skirmish damage. my dm has banned pretty much all of tier 1 and 2 (for RP reasons) so no cleric dip for travel devotion. And well I would like to use all of my iterative attacks at later levels without taking massive penalties( Greater many shot, I'm looking at you:smallannoyed:)

[Chilingsworth]

You cannot UMD emulate sparring dummy of the master to get into a PrC, only to activate a magic item that requires it.

Sparring dummy of the master is an item out of the 3.0 book "Arms and Equipment Guide." It allows a monk to train with it and in so doing learn to replace his/her 5-ft step with a 10-ft step.

I don't know if you'd be able to UMD to use that item. As I said, it's from a 3.0 source. afaik, it hasn't be reprinted in 3.5, so you should check with your DM before using it in any case.

[Glimbur]

You can take travel devotion (as a regular feat) without cleric levels, but without a source of turn undead it's only good for one combat a day which is lackluster.

DC 40 tumble is quite easy if custom magic items are allowed, and difficult at lowish levels if they are not.

Person Man has a guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) to this sort of thing. Browse it.

[ericgrau]

I think I read it too fast. Since sparring dummy of the master is a magic item you could use UMD to activate it. But I dunno if training with it counts as activating it. It depends how the description is worded. If you need monk skills to initiate training with it, you're golden; if you need monk skills to train, IMO you're out of luck. I'm guessing it's the second one though.

[beskargam]

yeah i know its from an obscure source, but my dm has okay'ed anything that was officially printed by wizards, outside of the class restrictions, anything is fair game.

that being said, we established that if it was printed in 3.0 and wasn't updated officially to 3.5 we just port the old 3.0 stuff over and make the necessary adjustments...

i really don't want to take a level of monk just to make it work, monk is nowhere in this characters build either fluff or crunch....but especially not fluff.

i would really rather just use the dc 40 tumble check but our campaign probably wont go past 12-15, and we don't have access to the heavy hitting casters to snap their fingers and make everything ok....... beyond that i have no idea how to make my character a reliably crazy awesome tumbler.

[beskargam]

It depends how the description is worded. If you need monk skills to initiate training with it, you're golden; if you need monk skills to train, IMO you're out of luck. I'm guessing it's the second one though.


I wanted to try and find some rules to support the idea before i presented it to my dm, but i guess i will just have to ask him....

that being said, any ideas on how to make a crazy reliable tumbler at those levels?

[ericgrau]

It's up to your DM I think. Depends whether or not your DM thinks you can trick the dummy into thinking that your motions are martial arts.

[Curmudgeon]

in the description of umd it says that you can make a dc 20 check to emulate a class feature.

more specifically i want to use umd to emulate having one level of monk, to use sparring dummy of the master.
Yes, you can do this; you're only trying to seem enough like a Monk to an unintelligent device to get it to activate for training. You need to emulate one or more class features of a 1st level Monk, with the number of features to activate a Sparring Dummy of the Master on each hourly check set by your DM. (Just reading across the class table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#tableTheMonk) the upper limit would be 11 class features.) Essentially, a +20 Use Magic Device modifier will guarantee success each time, and the large number of consecutive successful checks required (minimum 224 with one check per hour) means than any lesser UMD modifier will guarantee failure.

[Godskook]

It'd require a DC 30 alignment check(to emulate being lawful if you aren't) and a DC 21 monk feature check(21 - 20 = level 1 monk).

However, the catch is how *MANY* of these checks you'd need. According to UMD, for ongoing efforts(such as training with a SPotM), you need to make checks every hour. To do this plausibly, you'd need a +20/+29 UMD score, depending on if you're lawful or not.

[Drelua]

It'd require a DC 30 alignment check(to emulate being lawful if you aren't) and a DC 21 monk feature check(21 - 20 = level 1 monk).

However, the catch is how *MANY* of these checks you'd need. According to UMD, for ongoing efforts(such as training with a SPotM), you need to make checks every hour. To do this plausibly, you'd need a +20/+29 UMD score, depending on if you're lawful or not.

Would you really have to convince it you were lawful? I mean, I imagine that if you had been a monk before shifting alignment and taking levels as, say, a barbarian you'd still be able to use it, right? I didn't see anything in the description that says otherwise.

[Optimator]

It'd require a DC 30 alignment check(to emulate being lawful if you aren't) and a DC 21 monk feature check(21 - 20 = level 1 monk).

However, the catch is how *MANY* of these checks you'd need. According to UMD, for ongoing efforts(such as training with a SPotM), you need to make checks every hour. To do this plausibly, you'd need a +20/+29 UMD score, depending on if you're lawful or not.

This is how I did it in a campaign of mine (hourly). I made the DC 25, though 30 for the alignment part would've been a good idea.. The player got his UMD score up to +25 and voila--10-foot steps.

[Godskook]

Would you really have to convince it you were lawful? I mean, I imagine that if you had been a monk before shifting alignment and taking levels as, say, a barbarian you'd still be able to use it, right? I didn't see anything in the description that says otherwise.

The SRD text:


Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

Monk has an alignment requirement, so therefore you *MUST* meet it by RAW. By RAI, I doubt you could argue different, but I'd leave that up to the individual DM.

[Drelua]

The SRD text:



Monk has an alignment requirement, so therefore you *MUST* meet it by RAW. By RAI, I doubt you could argue different, but I'd leave that up to the individual DM.

My bad, I just looked at the item description and figured that it just says you must have one level of monk and figured you could easily meet that requirement without being lawful normally, without using UMD. I'd get rid of that in this case personally, but that has nothing to do with the RAW of it. I'm still not very familiar with UMD, my group just kind of...didn't notice it until a couple months ago.

[Andion Isurand]

It'd require a DC 30 alignment check(to emulate being lawful if you aren't) and a DC 21 monk feature check(21 - 20 = level 1 monk).

However, the catch is how *MANY* of these checks you'd need. According to UMD, for ongoing efforts(such as training with a SPotM), you need to make checks every hour. To do this plausibly, you'd need a +20/+29 UMD score, depending on if you're lawful or not.

Magic Device Attunement feat (CM 44) + Guidance of the Avatar/Divine Insight spells.

Then Chaos Shuffle for another feat when the Attunement feat is no longer needed.

[Curmudgeon]

Magic Device Attunement feat (CM 44) + Guidance of the Avatar/Divine Insight spells.

Then Chaos Shuffle for another feat when the Attunement feat is no longer needed.
That's going to be a pretty expensive option if you're trying to do this with minimal UMD ranks.

For 11 Emulate a Class Feature checks to cover all the level 1 Monk class features + one more for Emulate an Alignment that's 12x60 = 720 gp for Guidance of the Avatar castings. Repeat for each of 28 days of training, and that's 20,160 gp. The Dark Chaos Shuffle costs another 4,900 gp per feat, so that's 25,060 on top of the 15,000 gp cost (buy @ list, sell back for ½) for the Sparring Dummy of the Master. If you've got 40,060 gp sitting around with nothing better to buy, go for it. :smallcool: