Nesting Thought Bottles = millions of wishes

[Cruiser1]

The Thought Bottle (CA) for 20K gold allows you to spend 500 XP and store your current XP total, and then later reset your XP to that value (i.e. 500 below before you originally used it). Losing 500 XP hurts, but there’s a lot you can do to make it worth it. For example, casting Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) usually takes 5000 XP, however with a Thought Bottle it only costs 500. With more XP available, cast Wish twice or more in a row before restoring with the Thought Bottle.

How does one get lots of XP to use for this? Intentionally gain a negative level, intentionally fail your save in order to actually lose a level, then restore the XP with Restoration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/restoration.htm). Then instead of leveling up right away, use the XP as above. If you’re level 20, this tactic will give 19000 XP, which can be used for 3 wishes. If you delevel twice to level 18, this will give 37000 XP or 7 wishes. If you delevel three times to level 17 (no longer possible with most Sorcerers who don’t get 9th level spells until level 18, but a Wizard can still do it) this will give 54000 XP or 10 wishes. Of course, if you don’t mind spending 500 XP again, you can get another 3/7/10 wishes, and repeat the process until you really don’t have any XP left in the levels.

To really take advantage of this, have two Thought Bottles! The first ensures you only spend 500 XP total. The second is continually used in a loop of applying the bottle, casting Wish multiple times until no usable XP is left, and then restoring XP with the bottle. Each loop instance is slightly less effective than the one before, since it has 500 fewer XP to play with, meaning every 10 loops (5000 XP for Wish divided by 500 XP for using Thought Bottle = 10) you get one fewer wish. For example, with 19000 XP to play with, one Thought Bottle allows you to cast Wish 3 times, however 2 Thought Bottles allow you to cast Wish a total of 51 times (looping 28 times with the second bottle).

The number of wishes gets insane with three or more Thought Bottles! With three, 19000 XP to play with can be milked for 509 wishes, all with spending only 500 real XP. Each additional bottle effectively multiplies the number of wishes by a large factor, for exponential growth. The upper limit for the number of Thought Bottles you can use is (Start XP – 5000)/500 = 28 Thought Bottles for 19K start XP.

The table below summarizes the exact number of wishes you can get for various amounts of available start XP and numbers of Thought Bottles. The vertical axis is number of Thought Bottles, the horizontal axis is the amount of XP available, and the internal values are the number of wishes that can be obtained for free (all for only spending 500 XP to activate the outermost Thought Bottle). The bottom row contains the maximum number of Thought Bottles that can be used (i.e. applied in a row and still have at least 5000 XP left for a Wish) with the start XP. Look at how fast the number of wishes rises, where a Wizard with 54K XP can get over 100 million free wishes with just 6 Thought Bottles. Now imagine how many wishes the Wizard gets with 98 Thought Bottles! Although this isn’t truly infinite wishes and wealth (since the number is ultimately finite) it’s close enough to an infinite loop to do whatever you want! For that reason the best set of starting gear for a level 20 arcane caster (with 760K WBL at level 20) is to spend it all on 38 Thought Bottles. :smallwink:

19K XP27K XP54K XP
1 TB3510
2 TB51115520
3 TB509176617386
4 TB366719898431472
5 TB203171748048474532
6 TB898911247254137202762
Max(28 TB)(64 TB)(98 TB)

This is similar to the Restoration trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212408) to gain infinite wishes. Restoration is truly infinite, since it can be repeated infinitely. However, using Restoration is limited by only being able to get 3 wishes per day, before you run out of XP in half a level, and need to wait a day before you can intentionally fail your saving throw against negative levels to gain more XP to use. Thought Bottles have the limitation of permanently losing 500 XP, meaning it can technically only be applied a finite number of times. However, Thought Bottles allow you to use multiple levels worth of XP at once, and you can continually Wish as fast as you can cast (other than the occasional delay of a few rounds between Wish castings while you activate and reapply Thought Bottles).

Wish isn’t the only thing to use Thought Bottles for. Thought Bottles are great for item crafting to reduce XP spent, or other spells with XP costs. Of course, if you want magic items, just wish for them so you don’t have to spend any time or gold. If you don’t have any Thought Bottles (such as you're in a low magic setting with no magic marts around) then wish for some Thought Bottles to start the process, followed by using your millions of free wishes to create whatever combat gear you and your allies want.

Wishing for magic items is usually avoided since the XP costs are so high, however when you have infinite wishes, there’s no limit to the items you can create. With 19K XP, you can cast Wish to create a magic item worth up to 168750 gold, for just 500 XP. With 54K XP, you can cast Wish to create an epic magic item worth up to 1425000 gold. If you want to deck yourself out on magic items worth more than that, use multiple wishes to improve the item in stages. For example, if you want Bracers of Epic Armor +15 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bracersofEpicArmor) (costs 2250K gold), start by wishing for Bracers of Epic Armor +12 (costs a mere 1440K gold), then improve it to +15 with the next Wish to cover the difference.

Wishing for items, since it costs more than 5000K XP, may reduce the total number of wishes you get. For that reason it’s most efficient to wish for items when you're “at the bottom of the pyramid” when there’s only a little available XP left in any Thought Bottle loop. For example, with 9000 XP left, you can only get one standard Wish, and can’t do much of anything with the 4000 XP left over, so might as well use all 9000 XP to wish for an item worth 50000 gold, before restoring XP with the next Thought Bottle.

If you want cash, wish for 25000 gold (always a safe wish) or rather a chunk of gold or platinum worth 25000 gold that you convert into separate coins with Fabricate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm). For better cash per XP ratio, create and sell an expensive magic item. For example, 54K XP gives you 10 wishes or 250K gold, however wishing for a magic item worth 1425K gold and selling it for half price at 712K is a better deal. Not that efficiency is really important when you have so many wishes to begin with. :smallwink:

With so many opportunities to cast Wish, you’ll run out of spell slots quickly. Use the Absorption trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212739) to be able to cast it infinite times in a row. Put Absorption (preferably Empowered or Maximized) in a casting of Energy Transformation Field (SpC) so you can use free spell like abilities or items to get Absorption (SpC) cast on you for free, and then get yourself targeted by more free abilities to give yourself spell points to cast Wish again.

Given the above, the Thought Bottle (along with the Candle of Invocation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#candleofInvocation)) is frequently considered the most overpowered item in the game, and is therefore often banned. There’s a Sage ruling (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070308a) that says the Thought Bottle can’t be used to restore XP spent casting spells or crafting. Technically by RAW you can use the Thought Bottle as above, since the item says “when a user’s experience has been stored within the bottle, he can subsequently access the bottle to restore his XP total to exactly what it was when it was last stored”. There’s nothing that says the item cares what caused your XP to be reduced, and spending XP doesn’t magically cause the XP in the Thought Bottle to decrease. However, this is a good (and I’d say necessary) ruling to prevent the worst abuses such as described here. :smallbiggrin:

[Jack_Simth]

There's a nifty clause in Restoration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/restoration.htm):
This spell functions like lesser restoration, except that it also dispels negative levels and restores one experience level to a creature who has had a level drained. The drained level is restored only if the time since the creature lost the level is equal to or less than one day per caster level. A character who has a level restored by restoration has exactly the minimum number of experience points necessary to restore him or her to his or her previous level. (Emphasis and Emphasis added)

Combine with a clause in Level Loss (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#levelLoss):
The victim’s experience point total is immediately set to the midpoint of the previous level.

And you've got something fun:
Suppose you're 20th level. You get level drained, and let the level go away - making you 19th level, halfway to 20th (9,500 xp loose). You spend a bunch of that XP, and get a Restoration cast on you. You're now set to the minimum XP for 20th level again.

All it cost you was 100 gp in material components (if you can cast Restoration yourself). Note that this works better with Greater Restoration if you can cast it yourself, as that only costs XP.

Who needs a Thought Bottle?

Edit: Oh yes, and you can duplicate Restoration with Limited Wish.

[Cruiser1]

Suppose you're 20th level. You get level drained, and let the level go away - making you 19th level, halfway to 20th (9,500 xp loose). You spend a bunch of that XP, and get a Restoration cast on you. You're now set to the minimum XP for 20th level again.
Yep, that's the Restoration trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212408) mentioned in paragraph 6 of my post above, fully described in the linked thread. The problem with the Restoration trick is (assuming you're level 20) you only get 9.5 XP to work with (1/2 of the 19K XP between levels 19 and 20) which is only enough to cast Wish once. Then you need to wait 24 hours again before you get a chance to fail your saving throw again. One wish a day is slow. Thought Bottles are fast, and give you one wish every other round or so, effectively forever!

Of course, if Thought Bottles are banned in a game (or nerfed to magically only restore XP from level loss), and the Restoration trick isn't nerfed similarly (by making Restoration only restore 1/2 a level's worth of XP, or just enough to level you up, whichever is less) then we should take what we can get. :smallwink: The original post was inspired by the Restoration trick, where assuming that slow yet infinite loop is nerfed, then is there some other way to get free wishes, that technically isn't an infinite loop? :smallbiggrin:

Who needs a Thought Bottle?
Edit: Oh yes, and you can duplicate Restoration with Limited Wish.
Limited Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm) costs 300 XP. That means after just two applications or two Wishes, you're behind a Thought Bottle which is just 500 XP for millions of wishes. Better is to duplicate Restoration with Miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm). That costs zero XP, and Miracle covers Restoration's 100 gp material cost too. Get Miracle from Rainbow Servant PrC, Arcane Disciple feat (Luck domain), or just have an ally cast it on you.

[Aemoh87]

These tricks have been clearly outlined several times, nothing new to anyone.

[Cruiser1]

These tricks have been clearly outlined several timesIndeed, and the original post includes links to them, e.g. the Restoration trick is sometimes called "Do the Wight Thing" since playing with Wights is an easy way to get negative levels. :smallwink:

However what you won't find elsewhere are the details on exactly how effective multiple Thought Bottles are. Interestingly, nesting Thought Bottles becomes increasingly effective, but eventually becomes less effective once you reach the limit. Later Thought Bottles don't give as many wishes, because they can't be applied as often. For example, the last possible Thought Bottle only gives you one additional Wish, because you can only use it once, at the one point when all the others are stacked above you.

Below are the full details of how many total wishes you get from a start XP of 19000, and a given number of Thought Bottles. Courtesy of a computer simulation. :smallsmile: You can use up to 27 nested Thought Bottles, however the biggest bang for the buck is the middle value of 14 Thought Bottles, where the 14th gives you an additional 10 million wishes, after which there are diminishing returns.

BottlesWishesIncrease
133
25148
3509458
436673158
52031716650
68989169574
7326295236404
8991161664866
925582971567136
1056828473124550
11109897205306873
12187088087719088
13283603209651512
143875711210396792
15484131129656000
16561387287725616
17614503445311616
18645748783124534
19661371521562274
2066794952657800
2167025182230230
226709096265780
236710591214950
24671085122600
2567108837325
266710886326
27671088641

[Aemoh87]

67,000,000 wishes is a dark dark place where your DM locks you. But an interesting thought exersize.

Even more interesting if you consider the fluff of thought bottle. That is trippy to think about.

[Psyren]

Interesting. (And by "interesting" I mean "kill it with fire.")

[Aemoh87]

Now the only question is, is thought bottle a true dragon?

[hookbill]

67 million wishes.... pffftttt... any player tried that crap in my game would be excused from the table for 2 years to write each wish out and then another 2 years waiting for my answers.. ok maybe not that harsh

that is just game breaking munchkining.. would ruin the game for every one else. what's the point of having the most powerful weapon in the game for each player. I might as well just hand you the papers for the mod and you can just pick and choose what you want to kill and i'll go watch a movie.

[Tyndmyr]

Now the only question is, is thought bottle a true dragon?

With 67 million wishes, it can be.

[flabort]

Now the only question is, is thought bottle a true dragon?

A new breed of True Dragon is the result. Actually, about a few million new breeds.

So, yes.

[Aemoh87]

With 67 million wishes, it can be.


A new breed of True Dragon is the result. Actually, about a few million new breeds.

So, yes.

NEW CURSED/Intellegent ITEM! Spellhoarding Thought Bottle...

[gbprime]

And lo was the world created from the void, not by the Goddess of Creation, as has long been told, but rather by a bored Archmage named Melvin who was looking for something 111awesome111 to do with his other 66 million wishes. :smalleek:

[Glimbur]

67 million wishes.... pffftttt... any player tried that crap in my game would be excused from the table for 2 years to write each wish out and then another 2 years waiting for my answers.. ok maybe not that harsh

that is just game breaking munchkining.. would ruin the game for every one else. what's the point of having the most powerful weapon in the game for each player. I might as well just hand you the papers for the mod and you can just pick and choose what you want to kill and i'll go watch a movie.

Theoretical Optimization isn't meant to be used in real games. It's the fun of poking at the Rules as Written and seeing what strangeness comes out. Not everyone likes it, which is fine.

[flabort]

Although it would take two years to write out, I'd imagine. If the character who did that left the party to "spend some time alone with his magic", and the player did nothing but write out the wishes for the next two years, when he comes back, if his gaming group still exists, I'd grant him the wishes. :smallwink:

But who would spend two years writing wishes for a game, when he could play the game without? :smalltongue:

So, we can get 67 million wishes out of 27 :smalleek: thought bottles. If, instead, we put all that XP into crafting, with or without cost reducers, what's the most powerful item possible to create?
Since the entire day doesn't necessarily have to be devoted to crafting, let's assume we have time between crafting sessions to top-up on XP. Let's also assume, that since crafting time (in days) is based on how much the item costs, that we use only a certain amount of gold each day, and because the amount of XP we use in crafting is based on gold used, we only use so much XP per day, rather than "All at once" restricting the amount of XP we can spend on any one item.
Let's also assume we want to craft one single item. :smallsmile: Wealthomancers, tighten your seat-belts, this is the juiciest TO challenge you've seen yet.

[Kittenwolf]

In the game I've been GMing (which has just finished), I directed my players to Thought bottles when they hit lvl 14 or so and were getting worried about how long it took to make up a lost level.

The next session the party's main crafter (total munchkin) was pulling this exact same trick with a dozen dedicated wrights.
He was promptly told that using a Thought Bottle to restore the lost XP from crafting also drained the XP from the magic items and he could damned well use them for their intended purpose.

[Zaq]

In the game I've been GMing (which has just finished), I directed my players to Thought bottles when they hit lvl 14 or so and were getting worried about how long it took to make up a lost level.

The next session the party's main crafter (total munchkin) was pulling this exact same trick with a dozen dedicated wrights.
He was promptly told that using a Thought Bottle to restore the lost XP from crafting also drained the XP from the magic items and he could damned well use them for their intended purpose.

What IS their intended purpose, if not "lol free XP"? I seriously can't see why else they'd make something like that.

[candycorn]

The key isn't to see how many wishes you can get per cycle, with thought bottles. It's how you can use all your wish slots on wishes in a day.

Let's say you get 9th level spells, and you can memorize 5 per day. This means that you're better off with a 5 wish cycle (2 bottles), and a CR appropriate encounter (to recover the 500xp) every few days.

This holds unless you have over 48 slots from which you can cast Wish, which isn't likely.

[Aemoh87]

Theoretical Optimization isn't meant to be used in real games. It's the fun of poking at the Rules as Written and seeing what strangeness comes out. Not everyone likes it, which is fine.

There is one in game use... to punish those DMs who brake the sacred unprinted rules of DnD.

[candycorn]

There is one in game use... to punish those DMs who brake the sacred unprinted rules of DnD.

Not really. DM is justified in the game to change the rules in mid-stream. A DM can introduce new things, use whatever power level he/she pleases to face you. Rules can be enforced selectively, actions can change to disadvantage the player unduly. In other words, playing fair is a relative term when you're playing the person that writes the rules.

In terms of an arms race, you're a dirt farmer in a third world country with a pistol, and the DM is the guy in the command center watching you via satellite feed. The only thing stopping the air strike is the goodwill of the DM.

D&D is not meant to be adversarial on a player level. Players and DMs should work together for fun. Punishing players with game actions rarely ends well.

[Raendyn]

Pitty that WotC has explictily stated that both tricks don't work as both Thought bottles & restoration fail to do the job if you intentionally lowered your XP somehow, or to be more specificly they will restore XP but not the one you intentionally lost.

Of course people will answer me in the usual way :
" I don't care about FAQ,SAGE,"Ask the Wizards" or the thread of the author in the WotC boards that said it was a typo mistake & a phrace is missing!(Allthough when such material inproves my char, I gladly embrace it).I'll just say to my DM that RAW it can be done & when he answers me "NO!", I'll come back here & start a thread asking the GitP forumites If I my DM hates me. Then, I'll feel better when a few Rules Lawyers answer me that It can be done, & I'll completely ignore the other replies, the ones that specify that I abused the game.

It's the same recipe at least 2 years now... But at least I still hope..

[Kittenwolf]

What IS their intended purpose, if not "lol free XP"? I seriously can't see why else they'd make something like that.

Their intended purpose is to offset level loss, since a couple of unlucky spells and poor Joe Fighter is now five levels below his buddy McWizardGod.
I rather doubt it was printed with the purpose of just handing free everything to the user.

[Cruiser1]

Although it would take two years to write out, I'd imagine.
67 million wishes would actually take over 12 years to get, given one standard action per casting of Wish. If you need to eat and sleep (not that most high level casters need to worry about such mundane things anymore) than it will take 36 years if you're only spending 8 hours a day wishing. However, if you persist a Shapechange into something with 2 standard actions a round such as a Choker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/choker.htm), then you can get all your wishes in just 6 years. :smalltongue:

So, we can get 67 million wishes out of 27 :smalleek: thought bottles. If, instead, we put all that XP into crafting, with or without cost reducers, what's the most powerful item possible to create? Let's also assume we want to craft one single item. :smallsmile:
Let's see, with 67 million wishes, each Wish used 5000 XP. Spending all that XP on crafting gives us 335 billion XP to spend crafting a single item! Actually, since the remaining XP left before casting the next Wish was somewhere between 5000 and 9999, on average there was 7500 XP available 67 million times, so we really have roughly 503 billion XP available to apply to crafting, when we use all 27 Thought Bottles. Crafting an epic magic item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/basics.htm#experiencePointCost) costs (10000 + 1/100th of the gold cost) in XP. Plugging in 503 billion for XP allows us to craft an item worth 50 trillion gold pieces! Epic magic weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/weapons.htm#epicWeaponBasePrice) can have an arbitrarily high number of enhancement bonuses, where the cost formula is (bonus squared x 20000 gp). Plugging in our 50 trillion gold, and we can craft a weapon with over a 50000 enhancement bonus. So enjoy your +50000 longsword, with a +50000 to hit and +50000 to damage when you hit! :smallbiggrin:

Of course, the above doesn't give you the 25 trillion gold of materials that you'll need to craft a 50 trillion gp item. :smallfrown: Also, that +50000 weapon will take 50 billion years to craft, so I hope you're an Elan or some species that doesn't die of old age! Note you can do better than a +50000 weapon if you take the various crafting feats that reduce XP cost.

[Tyndmyr]

Or...we could just wish up magical items.

[Morph Bark]

Also, that +50000 weapon will take 50 billion years to craft, so I hope you're an Elan or some species that doesn't die of old age! Note you can do better than a +50000 weapon if you take the various crafting feats that reduce XP cost.

Go to that one plane of dreams where time goes 10 times as fast. Still takes helluva long, but slightly less at least!

The curious thing is though that Wish does not specify how costly a magic item may be that it can create. Nonmagical items go up to 25000 gp in cost, magic items have no such limit apparently! (I'd presume they could not be Epic items though.)

This means you can wish up 67108864 magic items or cast that many spells. I wonder what would be necessary to create a new species?


EDIT: This (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/originOfSpeciesAchaierai.htm) Epic spell creates a new species. Perhaps multiple wishes could do the same? Convert the gp cost to an xp cost (5 gp = 1 xp), one additional wish per requirement (such as each seed, each extra ability, etc.) and an amount of wishes that will equal the amount of spell levels that need to be contributed (one wish = 9 spell levels, obviously).

So to compare it to that spell, you'd have:

360,000 gp = 72,000 xp
8 days = 8000 gp (as for magic items) = 1600 xp
14,400 XP
conjure seed (DC 21) = 1 wish
life seed (DC 27) = 1 wish
fortify seed (DC 17) = 1 wish
Factors: +4 HD (5 hp per HD) (+20 DC) = 1 wish?
+6 to natural AC (+12 DC) = 1 wish
add three more natural attacks (ad hoc +6 DC) = 3 wishes
add black cloud spell-like ability (+33 DC) = 1 wish
add SR 19 (+15 DC) = 1 wish
permanent (×5 DC) = 1 wish
burn 10,000 XP (-100 DC)
eleven additional casters contributing 9th-level spell slots (-187 DC) = 99 spell levels
ten additional casters contributing 8th-level spell slots (-150 DC) = 80 spell levels
ten additional casters contributing 1st-level spell slots (-10 DC) = 10 spell levels


So 189 spell levels, 11 wishes and 98,000 xp.

189 spell levels = 21 wishes.
98,000 xp = 20 wishes.

So 52 wishes to create this new species.

[Aemoh87]

Not really. DM is justified in the game to change the rules in mid-stream. A DM can introduce new things, use whatever power level he/she pleases to face you. Rules can be enforced selectively, actions can change to disadvantage the player unduly. In other words, playing fair is a relative term when you're playing the person that writes the rules.

In terms of an arms race, you're a dirt farmer in a third world country with a pistol, and the DM is the guy in the command center watching you via satellite feed. The only thing stopping the air strike is the goodwill of the DM.

D&D is not meant to be adversarial on a player level. Players and DMs should work together for fun. Punishing players with game actions rarely ends well.

I do not think you understand the unprinted rules of DnD. They have to do more with fairness and sustaining the life and integrity of the game, while having nothing to do with actual rules.

Such as, the dm can do whatever he wants, but if he clearly favors one player over another it's crossing the line. Or if he punishes one player for not taking the route or stance the dm had hoped. PCs must be played with careful thought and integrity and so should the world.

[Ravens_cry]

Theoretical Optimization isn't meant to be used in real games. It's the fun of poking at the Rules as Written and seeing what strangeness comes out. Not everyone likes it, which is fine.
Indeed. While not my kind of fun, I can absolutely see the appeal.
But woe betide they that try to bring such into actual play, for they shalt be cast out into the darkness, their character sheet torn asunder, their dice crushed as unto dust, and the DMG smackest them upside their thick head.

[Glimbur]

I do not think you understand the unprinted rules of DnD. They have to do more with fairness and sustaining the life and integrity of the game, while having nothing to do with actual rules.

Such as, the dm can do whatever he wants, but if he clearly favors one player over another it's crossing the line. Or if he punishes one player for not taking the route or stance the dm had hoped. PCs must be played with careful thought and integrity and so should the world.

Sure. Those are important rules. But a violation of them should be dealt with out of game by talking to the DM or at worst leaving the game. Breaking the game takes longer and causes more hurt feelings.

[Cruiser1]

Or...we could just wish up magical items.

The curious thing is though that Wish does not specify how costly a magic item may be that it can create. Nonmagical items go up to 25000 gp in cost, magic items have no such limit apparently!
Wishing to create or improve magic items costs XP, beyond the 5000 for casting Wish. There's no limit on gold piece value, but you are limited by the amount of XP you have available. Therefore when creating/improving an uber magic weapon, you eventually reach a limit where your available XP isn't enough to add one more plus to the weapon.

For example, with 19000 XP (the amount between levels 19 and 20), you can create a +9 weapon in one fell swoop (which costs 17960 XP). You can then improve the +9 weapon to +10 with another Wish (which costs 8040 XP). However, to improve a +10 weapon to an epic +11 weapon would cost 42400 XP, which is more than the 19K we have available in one level.

A Wizard 20, who deleveled to level 17 and therefore had 54K XP available from all three levels, would have enough XP to improve a +10 weapon to epic +11. After that, and after they recover their XP with the Thought Bottle, then (assuming they gain 500 XP so they can repeat the process) they can keep adding epic plusses to their weapon, until they get to +67, where even 54K XP isn't enough to improve a +67 weapon to +68 using Wish.

[sreservoir]

67 million wishes would actually take over 12 years to get, given one standard action per casting of Wish. If you need to eat and sleep (not that most high level casters need to worry about such mundane things anymore) than it will take 36 years if you're only spending 8 hours a day wishing. However, if you persist a Shapechange into something with 2 standard actions a round such as a Choker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/choker.htm), then you can get all your wishes in just 6 years. :smalltongue:

you will, however, have to refill spell slots without more cheese.

that said, a wizard 5/incantatrix or dweomerkeeper 10/halruaan elder 5, taking arcane thesis (wish) at 18th, requires a -5 adjustment to quicken repeat twin wish. standing inside an earth node, with node spellcasting and metanode spell should reduce it enough if you can find a good-enough node, and stacking on a bunch of +0 metamagics should work, too.

FR loves casters, yes.

[flabort]

OK, so... lots of comments to comment on. :smallsmile:

12 years in-game, to use all the wishes normally? Yeeks. So, how long, in real life, do you figure it would take to gather up a list of what you want to use all those wishes on? also 12 years (I figure it would take some time to avoid repeats)?

+50K weapon if all XP is spent crafting. :smalleek: Can you say, "Artifact"? If you ever do find enough gold to craft that, the weapon would be larger, just from the materials put into it. So... how much of an effective enchantment bonus would it be to functionally make a weapon one size category larger, but still wield-able by members of it's original size? +3? If we spent 3K, to make it 1K size categories larger (while a medium character can still carry and swing it without a penalty :smalltongue:), it would still be a +47K weapon. What's the reach on a weapon 1K sizes larger than medium?

52 wishes to make a new species... 67/52=1.288
1.288x1,000,000= 1,288,461.5 new species with 67 million wishes. That's enough to populate several worlds. You are a god!

quicken...repeat...twin wish? that would that allow you to cast... 8 wishes a round?! Or just 4? 12, with the extra standard action from being a choker? That could reduce it down to 1 year to cast them all. maybe. If you have enough slots....

[Cruiser1]

12 years in-game, to use all the wishes normally? Yeeks. So, how long, in real life, do you figure it would take to gather up a list of what you want to use all those wishes on?It wouldn't take long to know what to wish for. Just wish yourself up a copy of every item in the DMG and Magic Item Compendium, and then repeat the process a few times for backups. Then do a million wishes for 25000 gold each to make yourself a billionaire. You don't need to use all 67 million wishes if you don't want to. You just get up to that many every time you're willing to spend 500 XP. Just make a few hundred wishes in the morning, then go adventuring and curbstomp a few encounters to more than make up the XP. :smallamused:

quicken...repeat...twin wish? that would that allow you to cast... 8 wishes a round?! Or just 4? 12, with the extra standard action from being a choker? That could reduce it down to 1 year to cast them all.
If you can fit a (Quicken) Twin Repeat Wish in a 9th level spell slot, then you can indeed do 12 wishes a round! Standard action #1: Twin Repeat Wish for 4, Swift action: Quicken Twin Repeat Wish for 4, Standard action #2 as Choker: Twin Repeat Wish for 4. Of course, another advantage from Twin Repeat Wish is you only spend the 5000 XP once for 4 Wishes. That means you're 67 million wishes becomes 268 million wishes, with appropriate metamagic feats. :smallbiggrin:

[Morph Bark]

52 wishes to make a new species... 67/52=1.288
1.288x1,000,000= 1,288,461.5 new species with 67 million wishes. That's enough to populate several worlds. You are a god!

quicken...repeat...twin wish? that would that allow you to cast... 8 wishes a round?! Or just 4? 12, with the extra standard action from being a choker? That could reduce it down to 1 year to cast them all. maybe. If you have enough slots....

Take note that the 52 wishes are needed for Achaierai. True dragons no doubt would take at least double. Still, that's over 600,000 true dragon species.

And if you first create some Metamagic Rods of Quicken, Repeat and Twin that have infinite uses/day (or find other ways to Quicken/Repeat/Twin them), you could create two new true dragon species every 3 minutes.

[peacenlove]

Craft an item that allows you to persist 9th level spells.
Memorize Time Stop once. Oh and somehow become ageless.
Now you have all the time in the world to use and recover your wishes, since their effects will come after the time stop ends.

Or just go crazy and grant a wish to 67 million 1st level dragonwrought kobolds :smallbiggrin:
Pun Pun verse anyone?

[Cruiser1]

Craft an item that allows you to persist 9th level spells. Memorize Time Stop once. Now you have all the time in the world to use and recover your wishes, since their effects will come after the time stop ends.
Time Stop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timeStop.htm) can't have the Persist Spell metamagic feat applied to it. Time Stop lasts for a few rounds of apparent time, but it's effectively instantaneous in real time, and instaneous duration spells aren't valid for Persist Spell. This ruling can be seen in the main D&D FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a), and is logical because 24 hour duration Time Stops would be gamebreaking.

Of course, what you can do is cast Time Stop within other Time Stops, and get longer duration that way. Use the Absorption trick to never run out of spell slots, allowing yourself to repeat casting Time Stop forever. Works best when Time Stop is Maximized, so you know exactly how long each Time Stop lasts, and get 5 free rounds from each. Squeeze in at least one Wish per Time Stop, with the other rounds used to recast Time Stop and use Absorption, and then you can fit all your millions of Wishes within one standard action! :smallcool: