3.5 Trying to optimise this archer

[Pandi]

Hey guys,
First a note : This is my First post here and i wouldn't consider myself anywhere near an expert at this game.
ANYWAY.
Me and my friends will be starting an in-depth campaign in a few weeks and i'm trying to get the most out of this character. Any 3.0/3.5 books may be used no matter how obscure.He will be a wood-elf Ranger/Fighter using longbows to do many attacks per round dealing high damage with crits from Deepwood Sniper. So far my build is this :
Level |Class |Feat | Bonus
1 Ranger Point Blank Shot Favoured Enemy Arcane, Trapfinding, Wild empathy, Champion of the wild
2 Ranger RapidShot
3 Ranger Precise Shot Endurance
4 Ranger Weapon Focus LBow, Animal Companion
5 Ranger Favoured Enemy Giants
6 Ranger Improved RapidShot Manyshot
7 Fighter Farshot
8 Fighter Woodland Archer
9 Fighter Weapon spec. LBow
10 Fighter Ranged Weapon Mastery
11 DWSniper Keen Arrows, Range +10
12 DWSniper Improved Crit Crit +1, Concealment 10%, Magic weapon +2, Range +10

My party has no trapfinder/disabler so i have sacrificed my Track for Trapfinding and i have removed my ranger spells for extra feats. Also i have no idea what to spec into after lvl 12(Assuming i live that long).

Any suggestion is welcome. Sorry if i have not provided enough information, if you need more feel free to request it.

[Parra]

Are you set on being a Ranger/Fighter? Because Clerics actually make pretty damn solid Archers (some might even say the best archers) and through the use of Magic you can still fill the Trapfinder role as well

If you are set on Ranger esque style there is the Mystic Ranger from Dragon Magazine that is a Ranger plus a whole heap extra

Few interesting bits to read here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0)

[Andion Isurand]

If you go a purely physical route...
or want to have your BAB equal +16 by level 20...

I would look at the first 4 levels of Cragtop Archer if you want to shoot at a very long range. (aka... not so hot in cramped dungeons)

High BAB, good Fort

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040815b

And Note The Line:

...Alternatively, you could leave everything but Mountain Warrior and call the prestige class the "elven treetop archer."

--------------------------------------------------------

Also, remember to check out the 1st elven ranger substitution level from Races of the Wild, knowing you can still sub out the favored enemy for arcane hunter.

If you go for this substitution level, use the extra skill points to put 4 ranks in Balance, and wait for it to become a class skill again to put in the 5th rank.

[Wavelab]

Well there is the order of the bow initiate in Complete Warrior. Archers usually lack damage and the ranged precision solves most of that. You can move and attack for bow damage +4d8 which is better than just a normal attack.

Also try and get an energy bow(http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) it is very good and allows power shots(power attacks with a bow).

[Gwendol]

I agree that fighter levels will dilute your build. An often suggested route for archers is the Ranger/Scout using the Swift Hunter feat to progress both classes. This is a fantastic way of adding more damage to your shots, and gain additional advantage of your mobile fighting style (i.e. staying out of melee range).

I strongly advise against removing the ranger spells! Using the ones found in the Spell Compendium you will get a lot of mileage out of them. Your animal companion however is a different matter.

Clerics makes great archers, as does Bards (using Inspire Courage to up the damage and to-hit chance). You could make a Ranger/Cleric, Ranger/Bard, or just go straight Cleric or Bard.

[Andion Isurand]

If you want to remain something of a skill monkey and cast powerful spells when not shooting arrows, you could...


go for the Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) variant (6 + Int skill points per level) from UA...
go Human as to get the Able Learner feat (RoD) at first level so you can buy ranks in cross-class skills 1 for 1
take Zen Archery so you use your high wisdom instead of an average dexterity for making ranged attacks
take Knowledge Devotion (from complete champion) in place of that extra Knowledge Domain you get from cloistered cleric
work your way to persisting the divine power spell using Divine Metamagic (or other means) so your BAB remains high
take 2 levels in Prestige Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigeRanger) variant to add the ranger spells to your cleric class spell list

etc
etc

[Parra]

take 2 levels in Prestige Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigeRanger) variant to add the ranger spells to your cleric class spell list


Can this not be achieved with a single level Dip or are you taking the second level just for the extra benifits? (barring a better option)

[Andion Isurand]

Can this not be achieved with a single level Dip or are you taking the second level just for the extra benifits? (barring a better option)

yes and yes... the Ranger chassis for BAB and saves is a good one... and the second level of the PrC improves spellcasting, and grants a bonus feat that can be used for archery

[Pandi]

Very interesting choices. My other idea for a build was soulknife into cleric into soulbow with zen archery but this campaign will include large portions of role play and i felt i could easily adapt to the ranged skillmonkey/scout kind of deal. My party also needs this roll filled rather than just a straight DPS machine.

I like the suggestion of ranger/cloistered cleric to retain some skills, would that be almost SAD with zen or is it still limited to rangers horrible MADness? Once again tho i wouldnt know how to role play some kind of holy archer.

I dislike the ranger/scout build and its use of manyshot. In my mind good archers don't miss and manyshots deficits are huge. Just my opinion

[Eldariel]

Ranger/Fighter/Barbarian/Deepwood Sniper is...fine. Barbarian 1 for Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ), and Extra Rage is definitely worth it.


Straight Cloistered Cleric is another option; take Ruathar [Races of the Wild] if you wish to expand your skill list. But if you want Cleric casting, go all the way.

[Tr011]

Keen Arrows and Improved Crit doesn't stack for higher crit range. Also, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization are not worth the feats.
Rapidshot and Manyshot are very nice, but you should go Improved Precise Shot, too. But you should either go full cleric + Archer Feats or mundane bowshooting. You said you don't wanna miss? Think how you get Dex really high and good bonuses on your attack rolls. Consider Manyshot as an option, so you may use it when needed or use regular attacking. Think of it like a Robin Hood who can use multiple arrows on one bow but often uses just one.

/edit: You'd better think how you lessen your enemies armor bonus in addition to increasing your attack bonus. I.E. my wizard/rogue usually attacks vs. flat-footed touch AC and can dispel any AC-buffs, so he hits usually on a natural 2.

[Gwendol]

With IC from the bard, you won't generally miss. Add in true strike... you get the picture.

[Parra]

Once again tho i wouldnt know how to role play some kind of holy archer.

Same way you would play a Ranger really. Just because your a cleric class doesnt mean you need to be constantly preaching. If your going for a Ranger theme, then just be a cleric class that acts like a Ranger

[Telonius]

I dislike the ranger/scout build and its use of manyshot. In my mind good archers don't miss and manyshots deficits are huge. Just my opinion

If you're looking at a level 20 ranger, your full attack would be (not counting anything besides BAB):
20/15/10/5
Average: d20 + 12.5

With Manyshot, it would be:
12/12/12/12
Average: d20 + 12

The difference in your attack roll isn't really all that huge. And the important thing for a build with Scout in it, is that Scout requires you to move 10 feet to get skirmish. While Scout does give you more damage, it has less BAB. You're trading a little bit of your attack roll for a bunch of damage. "Power attack for archers," more or less. If you get Greater Manyshot, you'll be hitting each one of the targets for skirmish damage.

[Pandi]

What is the ruling on prestigious ranger? Am i able to take levels in regular ranger to meat the prereqs?

[Darrin]

What is the ruling on prestigious ranger? Am i able to take levels in regular ranger to meat the prereqs?

No.

But you can use some variant base classes to get something similar. Simple Druid, for example, gives up wildshape for the monk's AC bonus, fast movement, favored enemy, and Track as a bonus feat. Wolf Totem Barbarian gets Improved Trip at level 2 and Track at level 5 as bonus feats. You can also take the Simple Barbarian variant to trade Rage for favored enemy and ranged combat style.

[molten_dragon]

Hey guys,
First a note : This is my First post here and i wouldn't consider myself anywhere near an expert at this game.
ANYWAY.
Me and my friends will be starting an in-depth campaign in a few weeks and i'm trying to get the most out of this character. Any 3.0/3.5 books may be used no matter how obscure.He will be a wood-elf Ranger/Fighter using longbows to do many attacks per round dealing high damage with crits from Deepwood Sniper. So far my build is this :
Level |Class |Feat | Bonus
1 Ranger Point Blank Shot Favoured Enemy Arcane, Trapfinding, Wild empathy, Champion of the wild
2 Ranger RapidShot
3 Ranger Precise Shot Endurance
4 Ranger Weapon Focus LBow, Animal Companion
5 Ranger Favoured Enemy Giants
6 Ranger Improved RapidShot Manyshot
7 Fighter Farshot
8 Fighter Woodland Archer
9 Fighter Weapon spec. LBow
10 Fighter Ranged Weapon Mastery
11 DWSniper Keen Arrows, Range +10
12 DWSniper Improved Crit Crit +1, Concealment 10%, Magic weapon +2, Range +10

My party has no trapfinder/disabler so i have sacrificed my Track for Trapfinding and i have removed my ranger spells for extra feats. Also i have no idea what to spec into after lvl 12(Assuming i live that long).

Any suggestion is welcome. Sorry if i have not provided enough information, if you need more feel free to request it.

I'm not sure how your group feels about homebrew, but if they're okay with it, check out the hunter class in my sig.

Otherwise, I'd second the archer cleric suggestion.

[dextercorvia]

Hey guys,
First a note : This is my First post here and i wouldn't consider myself anywhere near an expert at this game.
ANYWAY.
Me and my friends will be starting an in-depth campaign in a few weeks and i'm trying to get the most out of this character. Any 3.0/3.5 books may be used no matter how obscure.He will be a wood-elf Ranger/Fighter using longbows to do many attacks per round dealing high damage with crits from Deepwood Sniper. So far my build is this :
Level |Class |Feat | Bonus
1 Ranger Point Blank Shot Favoured Enemy Arcane, Trapfinding, Wild empathy, Champion of the wild
2 Ranger RapidShot
3 Ranger Precise Shot Endurance
4 Ranger Weapon Focus LBow, Animal Companion
5 Ranger Favoured Enemy Giants
6 Ranger Improved RapidShot Manyshot
7 Fighter Farshot
8 Fighter Woodland Archer
9 Fighter Weapon spec. LBow
10 Fighter Ranged Weapon Mastery
11 DWSniper Keen Arrows, Range +10
12 DWSniper Improved Crit Crit +1, Concealment 10%, Magic weapon +2, Range +10

My party has no trapfinder/disabler so i have sacrificed my Track for Trapfinding and i have removed my ranger spells for extra feats. Also i have no idea what to spec into after lvl 12(Assuming i live that long).

Any suggestion is welcome. Sorry if i have not provided enough information, if you need more feel free to request it.

Weapon Specialization requires Fighter level 4, which you don't have at this point. That also invalidates Ranged Weapon Mastery, when you have chosen it.

[hex0]

With IC from the bard, you won't generally miss. Add in true strike... you get the picture.

Scout into Dragon Devotee also gets nice skirmish and a little sorcerer casting

[Incanur]

Strangely enough, a single level of barbarian adds much to an archer build thanks to whirling frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ). It's like Rapid Shot (and stacks with that feat), but with +4 Str and +2 AC. There's also something charming about an archer who can only draw their bow when seriously pissed off. The frenzy does conflict with ranger spells, though.

[Piggy Knowles]

The frenzy does conflict with ranger spells, though.

If mystic ranger is allowed, I'd definitely say it is not worth using the whirling frenzy barbarian, because those swift action archery spells are really nice to have. But if you're doing a standard ranger, you get so few spells known that you actually might get more bang for your buck out of the frenzy. That said, it's a close call eitehr way (since one level in barbarian only gives you one daily frenzy anyhow, and after that you need to spend your most precious resource - feats - for more uses).

[Incanur]

That said, it's a close call eitehr way (since one level in barbarian only gives you one daily frenzy anyhow, and after that you need to spend your most precious resource - feats - for more uses).

True, though one feat gets you up to three frenzies per day, and frenzy makes you better melee combatant as well as a better archer. And you can trade fast movement for either pounce or +4 to Search and Spot checks.

The ranger goodies from Champions of Valor (extra spells and the ability to cast wizard spells) also probably trump whirling frenzy in the higher levels.

[hex0]

Prestige ranger is a nice choice.

Swift and Deadly Druid 3/Fighter 1 makes a nice entry into it. Or Cleric with animal domain 1/Fighter 4.

[Greyfell]

some links to handbooks that may help

the archery handbook
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0

swift hunters guide
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103.0

[dextercorvia]

If mystic ranger is allowed, I'd definitely say it is not worth using the whirling frenzy barbarian, because those swift action archery spells are really nice to have. But if you're doing a standard ranger, you get so few spells known that you actually might get more bang for your buck out of the frenzy. That said, it's a close call eitehr way (since one level in barbarian only gives you one daily frenzy anyhow, and after that you need to spend your most precious resource - feats - for more uses).

Finally a use for Rage Mage?

[Flickerdart]

Finally a use for Rage Mage?
Nope - Rage Mage is Arcane, Mystic Ranger is Divine.

[dextercorvia]

Nope - Rage Mage is Arcane, Mystic Ranger is Divine.

Only for advancement, which the first level doesn't offer anyway. I was suggesting the dip for the ability to cast during a Rage, it doesn't specify that it has to be one of the ones granted by Rage Mage.

Edit:Yes it does. I missed it before. Nope, that class is still crap.

Edit2: It doesn't even offer positive benefits of Raging. That is one poorly written class ability.

[Andion Isurand]

There is also the Rage Casting feat from Dragon Magazine 310 page 30... however it applies to items and spells with a swift/immediate action casting time, including quickened spells.