Natural Attacks vs Extra BAB Attacks

[Bloodgruve]

Please help me with a clarification here. I am running a psion using Claws of the Beast as my main attack method. My character just hit +6/+1 BAB. Normally I am making 2 claw attacks at my highest attack bonus. Can I, as a full attack, treat my main hand claw as a weapon to gain an extra BAB attack and still get an attack with my offhand as a natural secondary attack at the -5 penalty?

In essence
MH Claw+6/ OH Claw+6 vs MH Claw+6/ MH Claw+1/ OH Claw+1

TYVM
Blood~

[Runestar]

No. Natural attacks are natural attacks, and you cannot just decide to treat them like weapons as and when you wish.

[Darrin]

Please help me with a clarification here. I am running a psion using Claws of the Beast as my main attack method. My character just hit +6/+1 BAB. Normally I am making 2 claw attacks at my highest attack bonus. Can I, as a full attack, treat my main hand claw as a weapon to gain an extra BAB attack and still get an attack with my offhand as a natural secondary attack at the -5 penalty?


No.

Natural weapons do not get iterative attacks, and cannot be used as an "offhand" attack (via the TWF rules). This is a design choice the designers made in 3.0 when trying to reconcile the new BAB/iterative attack system with a large number of legacy monsters from previous editions that had multiple attacks based on their physiology rather than their HD/BAB. To simplify the monster rules, natural attacks were given some general rules:

* Each natural weapon can only attack once per round.
* If a creature has multiple natural weapons, then one is the "primary", and the rest are all "secondary" attacks. The primary attack gets full BAB, and in some cases may get x1.5 Str bonus (usually a bite attack), but this isn't consistently applied.
* Secondary attacks have a -5 attack penalty and get only 1/2 Str bonus on damage.

Some natural weapons that are very similar to each other can be combined into multiple "primary" attacks, notably most "claw" attacks. These attacks get full BAB on a full-round attack, or whatever the text that grants them says it does. Your claws of the beast power works this way. Getting both claw attacks at full BAB is an exception to the general rules for natural attacks. These exceptions are granted on a case-by-case basis, usually when the designer reasons, "there's nothing significantly different about these two claws, they have the same reach and physiological properties, and it doesn't make sense that slashing with one claw would make slashing with the other claw any less likely to hit".

Anyway, back to your Psion with +6/+1 iterative attacks. Iteratives only work for manufactured weapons and for unarmed attacks. If you still want to use your claws as primary attacks, you still attack at +6/+6 and lose that +1 iterative attack. Even if you decide to only attack with one claw, then you get one +6 attack and no +1 iterative attack. You could elect to attack with one claw as primary at +6 and the other claw as a secondary attack at +1 (with 1/2 Str bonus on damage), but you'd be hard-pressed to explain why you'd want to do this when you've already got +6/+6.

(You could possibly treat your second claw as an off-hand attack and take the normal -4/-8 penalties for TWF, or -2/-2 with the TWF feat, but there aren't any clear rules that explicitly allow an off-hand attack for a natural weapon.)

If you wanted to hold a weapon in one hand and claw with the other, this is still possible on a full-round attack. You would get your +6/+1 iteratives with your manufactured weapon as normal, and then all your unoccupied natural weapons can be added as secondary attacks with a -5 penalty and 1/2 Str bonus on damage. For your Psion, this would probably look like +6 sword/+1 sword/+1 claw. Edit: As Coq pointed out, claws of the beast explicitly do not allow its claws to be mixed with manufactured weapons. Sorry, forgot about that.

To get the most out of your iterative attacks and natural weapons, it's best to use unarmed strikes as your primary weapon (which do not require any particular limb/appendage and thus leave all your natural weapons free), and then add all your natural weapons as secondary attacks. Do note that "secondary" and "off-hand" attack are not inter-changeable terms (despite some very confused designers thinking otherwise). If you don't have a feat to spare for Improved Unarmed Strike, you can pick up the feat via Fanged Ring (10000 GP, Dragon Magic), Ring of Might (4000 GP, Magic of Faerun), or Bracers of Striking (1310 GP, Magic of Faerun).

Obligatory link to Keld's mini-guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0) for dealing with unarmed strikes/natural attacks.

[Larpus]

And honestly, there's not much reason for you to want to do so, you have better chances of hitting both naturals (and as such better DpR) than weapon iteratives + secondary naturals.

[Bloodgruve]

Thank you for the clarification. Just so I have this right.

1. Can I treat a Claw as either a Natural Attack or an Unarmed Strike?

2. If treated as a Unarmed Strike would I gain damage equal to the Claw Natural Attack?

3. If I treat the MH Claw as an Unarmed Strike what would the full attack look like? UaS+6/Uas+1/MH Claw+1/OH Claw+1 or UaS+6/UaS+1/OH Claw+1 or ?

4. I am thinking of taking a level of Warblade for the swift meditation feat, strikes state 'weapon'. Would I be able to use the Claw as the 'weapon'? Would these strikes provoke attack of opportunity's if I did not have Imp UaS?

We are encountering some interesting weapons in this campaign so this is more of an exercise in understanding the mechanics of Nat Attk and Iterative Attk in case it becomes more beneficial to wield a weapon.

Much appreciated
Blood~

[Fax Celestis]

1. No.

4. Yes. No.

[Cog]

1. No.

2. You have an entirely separate unarmed strike that deals its own damage. You may attack with both separately. (Except that PsyWar's claws have an exception saying you can't attack with both. That's unusual.)

3. If you had a non=PsyWar claw attack, it would be US +6 US +1 Claw +1 Claw +1. Again, PsyWar is the exception here, and so it's US +6 US +1 or Claw +6 Claw +6

4. A natural weapon is a weapon, so that should work fine. If you use an unarmed strike instead of a claw attack, and you do not have any sort of Improved Unarmed Strike ability, then you would provoke. If you simply use the claw you would not provoke.

[Keld Denar]

Check out my guide that Darrin linked. There is no such thing as a "main hand" with regards to natural weapons. Natural Weapons work on a primary/secondary mode. If its not the primary attack, its one of your secondary natural attacks. In the presence of a weapon that can make iterative attacks (like your UAS), all natural weapons are shifted to secondary.

So, you'd get:
Iteratives:
UAS +6/+1 (these attacks deal UAS damage)
Secondary natural attacks
Claw1: +1 (this weapon deals Claw damage)
Claw2: +1 (this weapon deals Claw damage)

And thats it. Mainhand/offhand is only something you deal with when you TWF. TWFing requires 2 manufactured weapons (or UASs). You can not TWF with natural weapons. You could, technically, still TWF with a mainhand/offhand and STILL get your Claw attacks, so long as the weapons you are using aren't held in your hands (which would inhibit your ability to claw with those claws).

[gkathellar]

The only way you can get iteratives with your Natural Attack is through the Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike feats, which are only accessible to dragons, magical beasts, plants, elementals and aberrations. So, if you're playing an Elan, you could pick them up.

Both feats are in the Draconomicon, and have pretty high BAB requirements.

[Bloodgruve]

TYVM for all the input. Looks like I will just have to add more natural attacks to my repertoire.

Blood~

[Keld Denar]

You can pick up Form of Doom from the PsyWar list with Expanded Knowledge. Thats an extra 4 natural attacks and some other perks. Plus, tentacles make everything better!

[Bloodgruve]

Plus, tentacles make everything better!

This is a fact.

I am actually running an Ardent and want to ACF cheat Form of Doom in. Do you think it would fit under the Conflict mantle?

Blood~

[Keld Denar]

I dunno if it would be more apt in Corruption and Madness or Chaos than Conflict...

[Bloodgruve]

I dunno if it would be more apt in Corruption and Madness or Chaos than Conflict...

Yes, it fits best in Corruption and Madness. Looks like Tap Mantle is in my future. Decerberate is also fun.

Since we're on this subject, where would Dimension Twister fit? Freedom deals with a lot of teleportation stuff maybe?

Thanks
Blood~

[Paulcynic]

If a creature has multiple natural weapons, then one is the "primary", and the rest are all "secondary" attacks. The primary attack gets full BAB, and in some cases may get x1.5 Str bonus (usually a bite attack), but this isn't consistently applied.

I don't believe this is correct. From the Beasteary I:

Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal).

Full Text Here: Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.

Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.

You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.

This Table (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/universalMonsterRules.html#table-3-1-natural-attacks-by-size) should clarify which natural attacks are Primary or Secondary by type.

As to your Iterative Attacks combined with Natural Attacks that is found in the spoiler above. Here is an excerpt:


You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword.

I hope this answers your question :)

--PC

[Keld Denar]

You quoted PF rules. I was referencing 3.5 rules. I'm VERY familiar with the 3.5 rules (see my guide linked above). I'm not very familiar with the PF rules for natural weapons, so you might be correct with regard to them, but I am not incorrect WRT 3.5 rules.

[gkathellar]

-snip-

That's Pathfinder, guy. 3.5 has different rules on this subject.

Edit: Swordsage'd. Been happening all day.

[Fax Celestis]

PF still has the same mechanic:


You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.

[Keld Denar]

The difference is that with PF in the absense of manufactured weapons, it is possible to have multiple primary weapons. As stated, a character can have a set of claws and a bite attack that are all primary, whereas in 3.5, you can only have one primary natural weapon (or set, in the case of claws or similar "paired" weapons) and all other weapons, regardless of what they are, are secondary. Also, PF has rules for "TWFing" with a manufactured weapon and a natural attack, whereas in 3.5 you couldn't TWF with a natural attack being one of your weapons (barring specific exceptions like Spinemeld Warriors). TWFing was restricted to manufactured weapons only, with natural weapons being added on after in a seperate step.

Its complicated...one of the reasons I took some time to do the research and help Solo write that guide.

[candycorn]

Note: For characters that use power attack, secondary natural attacks can be an attractive option, as they get benefits from power attack.

If you have 3 or more natural weapons, you qualify for Multiattack, which can improve the accuracy of all of those attacks. Improved multiattack is a bit more debatable, but a shock trooper/power attack build can get a lot of benefit from having 4-6 natural attacks, in addition to the 2 hander.