[D&D 3.5] What does Knockback do?

[Theorac]

As seen in the Races of Stone book, Page 142.

Flavor:By putting your bulk behind a blow, you can push your enemy backward.


Benefit (shortened version): If you score a hit while you are using the Power Attack feat, you can make a free bull rush attempt against the foe you hit. Unlike standard bull rush attempts, knockback attempts don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, and you don’t move with the enemy you knock backward.

What is this feat used for? To me, it just seem to give a AoO free bull rush with some bonuses every time I hit with a Power Attack that prones an enemy where they stand?

[SamBurke]

As seen in the Races of Stone book, Page 142.

Flavor:By putting your bulk behind a blow, you can push your enemy backward.


Benefit (shortened version): If you score a hit while you are using the Power Attack feat, you can make a free bull rush attempt against the foe you hit. Unlike standard bull rush attempts, knockback attempts don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, and you don’t move with the enemy you knock backward.

What is this feat used for? To me, it just seem to give a AoO free bull rush with some bonuses every time I hit with a Power Attack that prones an enemy where they stand?

No, they get pushed back as IF you had bull rushed, and they are moved farther than normal, without YOU having to move.

IE, you thrust someone backwards into the air, without moving forward, and they land back on their feet.

[Theorac]

Thank you, that cleared it for me. Funny how I was totally blind to the meaning of the lines I marked out.

[JaronK]

Generally one combos this with Dungeoncrasher, a Fighter variant that heavily damages people when you bull rush them into walls, and Shock Trooper, which trips people who are bull rushed into each other.

JaronK

[Person_Man]

You make a melee attack, and use Power Attack. You roll, and hopefully it hits. Then you roll damage, modified by Power Attack. Then, if your target is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller (a requirement of any Bull Rush) you may make an opposed Str check, which is 1d20 + Str bonus + size bonus + your Power Attack damage bonus. If you win this check, your enemy is pushed 5 feet back, plus an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. You do not move from your square (unlike a normal Bull Rush).

Four things are noteworthy about Knockback.

It is that it's the most efficient way to make a Bull Rush, as it adds a free Bull Rush check to every Power Attack you make.
You add your Power Attack damage bonus to your Bull Rush check, which can be up to +4 per BAB with Leap Attack. This is the most efficient way to add a bonus to pretty much any opposed check.
Because it's unlikely that your enemy will be within your reach after your Bull Rush, Knockback often prevents you from making a full attack each round. This can dramatically effect your damage calculation if you don't use a workaround (like Bloodstorm Blade or getting a ton of reach).
Because it pushes your enemy away from you, it's also a phenomenal defensive feat for AoO builds, as it prevents many enemies from getting close to you.


As JaronK alludes to, this opens up the door to massive damage combos from Dungeoncrasher. It also opens up various Trip combos with Shock Trooper. And in general it's just a fun Feat.

[CTrees]

If you're bullrushed into a square an enemy threatens, do you provoke an AoO?

If so, two melee types, built to get tons of AoOs, with Knockback, could play a hilarious game of tennis with enemies. I'm actually envisioning an encounter with a few cloud giants... :smallamused:

Edit: also, can you voluntarily shorten your reach? Say you have a 15' reach, and thus threaten an area up to 15' away from you, in all directions. Can you choose to only threaten up to 5' away? Or, if a creature is moving through your threatened squares, can you let it walk through those squares until it's adjacent to you before making an AoO, or do you have to make the AoO as soon as it enters your reach?

[Fax Celestis]

If you're bullrushed into a square an enemy threatens, do you provoke an AoO?Yup. Couple with legion of sentinels for hilarity.


Edit: also, can you voluntarily shorten your reach? Say you have a 15' reach, and thus threaten an area up to 15' away from you, in all directions. Can you choose to only threaten up to 5' away? Or, if a creature is moving through your threatened squares, can you let it walk through those squares until it's adjacent to you before making an AoO, or do you have to make the AoO as soon as it enters your reach?

Nope, you can't shorten your reach.

[Vladislav]

You can't shorten your reach, but you can voluntarily forego an AoO. If you threaten all squares in 15' radius, you don't have to make an AoO the first time one is provoked - you can wait until they get a bit closer.

[Keld Denar]

Eh, there is a little uncertainty there. Movement only provokes an AoO from a target once per round (not even once per action...once per round). If you don't claim your AoO the first time it's provoked, one could read that as forgoing to take it, and thus subsequent movement wouldn't provoke due to the above rules.

There really aren't any exact, explicit rules governing this, though. Its pretty loose and open to interpretation.

[CTrees]

Yup. Couple with legion of sentinels for hilarity.

That's amusingly evil :smallbiggrin:

[Lord.Sorasen]

Yup. Couple with legion of sentinels for hilarity.

is there a way to give your sentinels knockback? Because this is what I want to see happen somehow.

[Person_Man]

If you're bullrushed into a square an enemy threatens, do you provoke an AoO?

Yes and no, with caveats.

Yes, if you Bull Rush a creature out of a square that someone else threatens, that someone else is entitled to one attack of opportunity, assuming they have one available. Player A Bull Rushes an Ogre out of a square that Player B threatens. Player B gets one AoO on the Ogre.

You cannot Bull Rush someone into the square of an ally, because enemies are not capable of moving into or through each other's squares (unless they're very small, use Tumble, or have a special ability that allows them to do so). Player A Bull Rushes an Ogre into Player B's square, the Ogre's movement stops directly in front of Player B. (And Player B may or may not get an AoO, depending on his reach and how far the Ogre traveled before being Bull Rushed in front of Player B. Remember, you only get an AoO when an enemy leaves a square, not when he enters it).

However, you can Bull Rush someone into or through one of his ally's squares, and this provokes a free Trip attempt on each if you have the Shock Trooper feat (and if they're still within your reach). Player A Bull Rushes an Ogre into an Orc's square. The Ogre would move through the Orc's square, and you'd get a free Trip attempt on each if you have Shock Trooper and threaten them.

Also, movement that is forced on an enemy never provokes an AoO from you the creature that initiated it. So Player A would never get a free AoO from the movement caused by his Bull Rushes on the targets of those Bull Rushes.

You might want to Google King of Pong and Flaming Homer on this board. It's been done.

[CTrees]

Though you could set up a ping pong situation, where two allies with reach, Combat Reflexes, and Knockback set up a combo where they knock an enemy back and forth until it dies, or one of them misses, or one of them runs out of AoO uses.

This is what I was thinking, which is why I specifically went with creatures with reach. Not any of the other things you were addressing. (and given your edit, I was thinking knockback through threatened squares, not through the actual square in which a creature is standing. Creature gets knocked back, passes through the first square of threat, leaves it, enters the second threatened square, provokes for leaving the first threatened square, gets volleyed back to the original batter)


You might want to Google King of Pong and Flaming Homer on this board. It's been done.

Wasn't aware of those, but I kinda suspected that if this were possible, someone would have created a TO build for it awhile ago. Still a new enough idea for me that it makes me chuckle to consider.

[Theorac]

Thanks for all the extra advice/information and build suggestions. I'll go look em up.

[Gwendol]

Even without extra damage from dungeoncrasher knockback can be extremely useful in breaking up formations or simply help a fellow hero out by taking away an adjacent enemy.
Also, if you have a scenario with environmental dangers, it gets even better since you don't have to move with the target.