Aid with a “Psychic” build

[Chained Birds]

Hello Playground,

I'm currently producing a psionic character for a campaign in a few weeks and would like to here some suggestions for feats/powers for the 1-10lvls and maybe a few strategies I can attempt at select lvls.

-- Things to note --
1. The DM in emploring Gestalt classes that he has combined and has left us to choose from. I selected the “Psychic” class which combines the Wilder and Psion (XPH) and the Erudite (CPsi) into 1 class.
As the PCs can't choose their own Gestalt combos, they also cannot use Prestige or other classes and must stay the cource from lvl1-20. (So, unfortunately, class dipping ideas are out.)
Positive: I gain x2 more pp.

2. The DM has also made the Expanded Knowledge feat (XPH) a forbidden feat... sad I know.
3. Magic/Psionic items are extremely rare, so suggestions on whether to take crafting feats are very appreciated.
4. Magic/Psionic Transparency is not present.
5. DM is homebrewing ways for mundane armor to have SR/PR, so powers that apply SR/PR maybe harder to use.
6. The race must be Human.
7. While he allows many books, Dragon Magazine is never allowed.

-- As per the build so far --

- STR: 12/ DEX: 16/ CON: 14/ INT: 18 [Power/pp stat]/ Wis: 14/ CHA: 10

- Feats:
Human/ Metapower (Astral Construct)
1st/ Extend Power
Bonus (Erudite) 1st/ Psicrystal Affinity
Bonus (Psion) 1st/ Boost Construct
3rd/ Psionic Meditation
Bonus (Psion) 5th/ Psicrystal Containment
6th/ Craft Psionic Arms and Equipment - OR - Craft Universal Item
9th/
Bonus (Psion) 10th/

- Psicrystal Feats
1st/ Wild Talent
3rd/ Power Penetration
6th/ Greater Power Penetration
9th/ Burrow Power

- Powers [lvl 1]
1st/ Astral Construct
1st/ Vigor
1st/ Entangling Ectoplasm
- Powers [lvl 2]
1st/ Crystal Shard
1st/ Minor Creation, Psionic
- Powers [lvl3]
2nd/ Share Pain
2nd/
- Powers [lvl4]
2nd/ Feat Leech
2nd/
- Powers [lvl5]
3rd/ Concealing Amorpha, Greater
3rd/ Time Hop
- Powers [lvl6]
3rd/ Energy Wall
3rd/
- Powers [lvl7]
4th/ Quintessence
4th/
- Powers [lvl8]
4th/ Fabricate, Psionic
4th/
- Powers [lvl9]
5th/ Hail of Crystals
5th/
- Powers [lvl10]
5th/
5th/

So, any advice will be appreciated; and yes, I know alot of awesomeness is limited due to the above rules.

[Psyren]

First off, for power ideas: read this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19537882/What_Is_the_Most_Powerful_Psionic_Power) and this. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10238.0) (The latter link has general advice you should find handy as well.)

Second, you need to define what exactly you mean by "Psion, Wilder and Erudite all in one class." Do you get powers known from all three classes when you level, or just one? What is your max number of powers known - is it unlimited, and if so, do you have a UPD mechanic like the Erudite? Does it apply to all your powers or just the Erudite ones? When you Wild Surge, does the increased manifester level apply to all of your powers, or just the Wilder ones? Is Int your manifesting stat for all your powers, or does Cha factor in too?

(Note that as written, gestalting another manifesting class with Erudite causes you to autofail the Erudite's pg. 154 restriction, losing the ability to add powers to your extended repertoire. Hopefully your DM overlooks this.)

Also, this:

4. Magic/Psionic Transparency is not present.
could be trouble for your DM, but hopefully he knows what he's doing.

[Chained Birds]

Let's see;

1. DM says the class functions as the Psion in regards to Powers Known.
2. The Erudite still functions somewhat, in that I can research new powers, and those powers become its “unique x/day” stuff. (I unfortunately have a very limited knowledge on Erudite, but the DM expressively forbid me from non-psion/wilder powers... He has issues with psionics and believes them to be too broken.)
3. UPD? Use Psionic Device?
4. I brought up the transparency issue with him a few times and he likes keeping Psi and Magic seperate.
5. Wild surge works on any power (I thought they sorta shared powers with psion anyway?).
6. Concerning primary stat, I had it written in the openning under the current build [Int].

[Chained Birds]

BTW: can someone also explain to me how an Erudite actually works? I don't really have access to the Cpsi book, and have only gotten info about the class from the DM over the phone and a small amount from WotC.

[Bakkan]

The Erudite can be thought of as the "Wizard" to the Psion's "Sorcerer." Erudites know a certain number of powers automatically and gain free powers known as they level (like a Wizard with spells). They cannot learn discipline powers automatically from leveling up. However, Erudites can learn powers (even discipline powers) from power stones or other psionic characters. This process takes time and costs XP, however there is no limit to the number of powers an Erudite can know. You can only learn discipline powers whose level is no more than 1 less than the highest-level power you can manifest. The downside, however, is that the Erudite can only cast a certain number of unique powers per day (UPD).

Note that there is possibly a contradiction between the text describing unique powers on page 153 and the class table on page 154. The text indicates that the Erudite has a limit on the number of "unique psionic powers per power level per day," while the table has a column indicating "Unique Powers/Day." Obviously, playing by the text gives a significant increase in power to the Erudite.

In either case, you begin the day with all your known powers available to manifest. As you manifest, the powers you manifest count against your unique powers per day (or powers per level per day). Once you manifest a power, you can manifest it again as much as you want as long as you have the PP for it. However, once you have manifested as many distinct powers as indicated, you cannot manifest any other powers (or any other powers of that level) that day. You can, of course, keep manifesting the ones you have already manifested until you run out of PP.

[Chained Birds]

Oh, so the UPD system is like the wizard choosing his spells per day from his massive list of spells. Though it does seem rather low compared to how many spells a wizard can have at the ready (But I guess it's around the same factoring powers and their variables at play). Makes sense now, thanks.

BTW, could I presumably make a power stone/ dorge without the power known? As crafting does say somewhere that I can avoid some crafting requirements by increasing the DC to craft by 5 or 10 or something like.
On a related subject, is craft universal better at lower levels 3-5 than craft dorge? (side note: what does a dorge look like?)

If I spelt dorge wrong then I appologize...

[Bakkan]

Oh, so the UPD system is like the wizard choosing his spells per day from his massive list of spells. Makes sense now, thanks.

Yes, except that the mechanic is actually better for Erudites than Wizards, in that Wizards have to choose all their spells per day ahead of time and Erudites don't.

[marcielle]

Wilder Psion ERUDITE???? HOLEE SHEET! Is there a Wizard Cleric Druid on your group? Or an Archivist Psionificer Wizard? That game is gonna be all sortsa messed up.

[Chained Birds]

Well, he did put all the ToB characters into 1 class. But considering that my DM is the type to have 10d6 sneak attack rogues attacking 3rd level PCs, and a Demon being the 1st BBEG for a group of 4 lvl1 characters, I'll say that we need all the broken we can muster...
He also hates magic items, so it makes finding our first ever +1 weapon at lvl 5 seem very epic... Hence why I ask what the better craft feat might be. Alot more prudent to make items than hope a dragon's treasure horde just happens to have a wand of cure light wounds.

[Chained Birds]

Sudden Realization:
As I am Gestalting Wilder as well (And it it's wild surges apply to any power I manifest), is Overchannel/Talented completely useless?

[tyckspoon]

Sudden Realization:
As I am Gestalting Wilder as well (And it it's wild surges apply to any power I manifest), is Overchannel/Talented completely useless?

Depending on exactly how he smushed the classes together, there's still a point to Overchannel- it doesn't risk triggering Psychic Enervation. The plus side for Wild Surge is that it scales higher, faster, and (if you're using Talented along with Overchannel) doesn't require popping your psionic focus.

Crafting feats: Are you likely to have sufficient mundane wealth, and is Magic Item Compendium in play? If yes to both, then you'll want to pick up Craft Universal Item and Craft Psionic Arms and Armor; a decent quantity of mundane wealth is needed to convert to magical goods, and the MIC gives official provision for using psionic abilities to craft most of the same stuff Craft Wondrous/Craft Arms and Armor can make. If you can only make strictly psionic items, then you'll probably still want Arms&Armor, but Universal Item isn't as useful; most of the really good stuff is normal Wondrous Items (still some psionic gems, flip through the XPH and see if there's anything you absolutely want.)

Dorjes: They're psionic wands, basically. So they look like wands. Only because they're psionic, and that means crystals and a new-age hippiedom aesthetic, they're made of crystal chunks instead of sticks.

[Psyren]

Sudden Realization:
As I am Gestalting Wilder as well (And it it's wild surges apply to any power I manifest), is Overchannel/Talented completely useless?

Not completely (as tyck said) but your feats are most likely better spent elsewhere - more Metapowers for instance. Just as a wilder wouldn't spend two feats getting those, neither should you.

[Chained Birds]

I guess if I craft weapons I could make the 50 +1 manifester arrows when I obtain massive wealth.

I figure the 5% wild surge isn't too bad at level 1, but may turn ugly at higher levels... wish there was a feat that was like Talented to this ability. Is there a Wilder item that can prevent this from happening?

Also, might exchange Overchannel and Talented for Metapower (Astral Construct) and Extend Power. Lvl 1 with a variable summon lasting for 4rds (with +1 surge). Sounds pretty nifty.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Not completely (as tyck said) but your feats are most likely better spent elsewhere - more Metapowers for instance. Just as a wilder wouldn't spend two feats getting those, neither should you.

See, if the DM is "Have thousands and thousands of gold, but no magic items" then crafting feats are useful. If he is "Nope, be poor forever!" Then go with metapowers and just nuke everything and play safe for the rest of the day (if need be).

Also, with psion bonus feats, crafting hurts less. Oh, and flaws. I love me some flaws.

[Psyren]

Crafting or metapsionics are both fine - just don't waste them on Overchannel/Talented with that build.

You will obviously want the 1-2 punch of Psionic Meditation and Psicrystal Containment as well.

From your build, OP, it looks like you only get one bonus feat even on levels where Erudite and Psion would both get one - is that the case?

[Chained Birds]

I referenced Erudite for granting psicrystal affinity for free. Seeing as both Psion and Erudite have the same feat progression, their bonus feats sadly don't stack.

I'll update the top with current feat input.

[Chained Birds]

Okay, I did a bit of tweeking and was hoping for some fill-in-the-blanks advice for the remaining powers and feats.

I think the current feat progression is fairly good, but am open to suggestions.

[Than]

Something has been bothering me with this thread. Erudite is not a separate class. It is a psion variant. In gestalt you can be psion//wilder or erudite//wilder but you can't mix psion//erudite because you're either one or the other.

Complete Psionic page 153.

"An alternative to the standard psion class, the erudite is a psionic character who follows a scholarly and sell-reflective road to power, instead of a merely self-conscious path like the psion follows. An erudite's psionic powers stem from a schedule of austere study and continual practice. Those who can master the teachings of erudite lore eventually call upon an internal reservoir of psionic power."

You don't need the Expanded Knowledge feat if you can find a psion or power stone with a discipline power since you can use the Erudite ability to learn it and add it to your powers known.

Astral Construct is a Discipline power(Metacreativity, XPH 73) and you cannot have a Discipline as an Erudite. Short of a DM pardon on the base rule, of course.

Erudites start with two powers known plus one power power point of INT bonus. With your 18 INT that should be 6 1st level powers. You'll also get 2 powers per level with the same progression as a Psion picked from the psion/wilder list.

Since you said you didn't have the CPsi here's how you add spells beyond those automatically gained per level. Basically like adding spells to a wizard's spell book but you add them to your brain.

First you make mental contant with the person or power stone. Psicraft check DC15 + level of highest known power of the person / power stone. Can only be used on willing people. Unconscious people are considered willing but not otherwise immobilized people. This requires 1 round of physical contact.

Once contact is made you become aware of all powers contained in the stone/person up to the highest level power you are able to manifest. The subject is allowed a Will save DC13 + Erudites INT bonus.

Next you make a Psicraft check DC 15 + Power's level for each power you are trying to learn (checking to understand). Per rules you auto-fail if it's not on the proper class list or specific discipline list. So no learning Psychic Warrior or other class powers.

Pass those and you can either manifest it once or add it to permanent known powers.

Making permanent requires 8 hours meditation and 20 XP per ERUDITE level (not power level) and if you would lose a level you auto-fail. If you manifest anything else between understanding and making permanent you drop the power and have to start over. XP loss happens only after you complete meditation.

[Chained Birds]

I brought it up when he first mentioned the odd 3 Gestalt, but as I was not familiar in how the Erudite worked, I could make an excuse for it not to work.
I was going to inform the DM about a few psionic related things today, so maybe some changes will be made.
Currently, he ruled that any powers granted from another source (i.e. Expanded Knowledge, Erudite researching, power stones, etc.) follow the Erudite's x/day ability. I like it, but that may make the class broken at higher levels...

[Psyren]

Something has been bothering me with this thread. Erudite is not a separate class. It is a psion variant. In gestalt you can be psion//wilder or erudite//wilder but you can't mix psion//erudite because you're either one or the other.

There's WotC precedent to treat them as separate classes. For instance, both Psions and Erudites exist in Faerun (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070711), rather than the setting only having one or the other. It's also implied that they learn their powers slightly differently (Psions from yoga, mantras and meditation techniques, Erudites from books and other lore) so its definitely possible for a character concept to incorporate both.

[Than]

Well yes they both exist but it's like being a.. let's go with dungeon crasher fighter and a tripping fighter. They are both fighters. I don't have books on my tablet I'm posting with for a better example unless you want a pathfinder example but that is what erudite is like. They are a variant of the base class. Both exist in the world but you can't be both.

All powers gained by an erudite are added to his repertoire and as written do count against the unique powers per level per day you can manifest. If I remember my erudite table correctly you only get one unique power per day at level 1 but you know 6 different powers (2 base and 4 from INT). Once you use a power which does not need to be picked at the start of the day you will be stuck with that as the only one you can use for the whole day. Later on when you have like 7 unique per day and access to 7th level powers you get 7 unique per level (according to the text) per day. Erudite is tier 1 for a reason. Just remind your DM if he is worried about you "going nova" you can't spend more PP on one power that you manifestor level. Level 20 may have multiple hundreds of PP for you to enjoy but you only get to use 20 per round.

[Chained Birds]

I'll try to explain how the DM worded the Psion/Erudite combo.
By lvl 20, I'll have the Psion's 36 list of Known Powers. Any power gained through feats or the Erudite's effect can only be used X times per day. X being the Erudite's UPD (Max 11/day).

Example: I can use Vigor, Astral Construct, and Feat Leech as many times as allowed by my total pp. If I used Expanded Knowledge to gain Expand and Energy Missile (Or Psicrafted a Power Stone for those powers); I would only be able to use those powers 11/day by lvl 20. Meaning: either 11 Expands; or 11 Energy Missiles; or 7 Energy Missiles + 4 Expands; or any other combination with other Powers learned through the Erudite ability mentioned earlier.

[Than]

Then he is homebrewing you a wonky class. Just be an erudite and you will know 44 powers by level 20 plus any you acquire from other psionic creatures and power stones. That is two every level plus four from your starting INT bonus. You will be able to use 11 different powers daily of 1st level, 11 more of 2nd level, etc etc for every level you can manifest with no limit on times per day except for the amount of PP and cognizance crystals you have.

Dorjes and psicrowns keep their own PP too and the latter you can recharge from your own on off days (see Magic Item Compendium and XPH).

Seriously what your DM is giving you is not an erudite. If he wants broken show him Spell to Power Erudite and have him stop nerfing the regular class.

Edit: Link for StP Erudite
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a

[Chained Birds]

Okay, I figured the 11/day thing meant that you only could manifest a Max of 11 powers regardless of their lvl.

[Psyren]

The 11/day thing is clearly the intent of the class. By RAW it functions as Chained Birds said (due to text trumping table) but that reading is a bit silly as it gives Erudites more powers per day than they have power points to manifest them with, making the limit meaningless.

You're powerful enough with a separate PK list of 36 from Psion, there's no need to use the most broken interpretation of erudite too. You've got a bitchinly (is that a word?) powerful and fun gestalt going, don't make your DM reconsider it with unnecessary cheese.


They are a variant of the base class. Both exist in the world but you can't be both.

I both understand and agree with what you're saying - all I'm saying is that his DM isn't totally out of left field for letting him combine Psion and Erudite this way. In other words, there is flavor justification for the combination.

I wouldn't normally let Psions and Erudites multiclass either, but clearly it is allowed in the OP's game, so us railing over the internet that it shouldn't be is counterproductive.