Best Seed for Metamagic?

[mootoall]

What spell is the best to metamagic up, assuming there is no cap on spell level? In other words, what one spell should Arcane Thesis be applied to on a wizard?

[noparlpf]

Magic Missile!
Obviously.

Other people probably disagree.

[JaronK]

Silent Image, because Shadowcraft Mages rock out the Arcane Thesis with that spell.

JaronK

[Glimbur]

Hail of Stone(SpC) is pretty cute as an AoE with no save and no SR. Shame about the 1 round casting time and 5d4 max damage, but it's hard to be immune to.

[tyckspoon]

Magic Missile: It's a classic, auto-hit is nice, [Force] means you can use it to tag ethereals and incorporeals. Multiple targeting makes it good for spreading around Fell Drain/Frighten/Weaken if you'd rather debuff instead of destroy a single target. Downside: Low damage cap (note that as [Force] is an energy descriptor, you can change it out with Energy Sub + Energy Admixture for more damage, plus use whatever your favorite element-specific stuff is when you don't need the Force benefits.)

Hail of Stone: No save, No SR small AoE damage. This is undisputably the most reliable way to do damage to things- if you cast this, they *will* be hurt. No save for Evasion to duck, no SR check, and it's not a targeted spell or an attack-roll using projectile. Downside: Low damage (it's weaker than Magic Missile), long cast time (basically feat taxes you for Rapid Spell if you want to make this your bomb of choice), expensive material component (negligible cost compared to WBL, but you can't Eschew Materials it.)

Scorching Ray: Efficient damage generation for the slot. Nothing really special about it otherwise. Downsides: Allows SR, damage is done over 3 separate hits giving a greater chance of flubbing a roll and giving energy resistance more impact.

Enervation: Debuffs everything all at once. Properly metamagic'd, will either kill or render harmless anything susceptible. Can be cheaply "twinned" with Split Ray. Downsides: Fairly major enemy groupings are inherently immune to it, and spell-using opponents can make themselves immune to it in several ways.

Orb of Fire: The other 'no, you take damage' spell; when combined with Searing Spell there is almost no way to prevent damage if hit by this. Carries a save against Daze as a rider debuff, which nearly nothing is immune to. Downside: Ranged touch attack. If you invest a bit in fixing your attack rolls or are willing to take the chance of failing a hit sometimes it's an excellent seed.

[mootoall]

I figured Orb of Fire would be my best bet. Oh well, Intensified and Enhanced it'll do very decent damage, though I completely forgot about admixture.

[DeAnno]

Melf's Unicorn Arrow is very damage efficient, and features untyped damage and SR: No. You need to be able to make Ranged Touch attacks unassisted though, since 5 attack rolls means no True Strike.

[dextercorvia]

I'm a big fan of Launch Item.

Chain Reach with Arcane Thesis, and you are hurling CL+2 objects at a target at medium range. Alchemical Items are fairly easy to do this with, but even sling bullets would suffice. Of course, Twin makes this even more absurd. Rather requires Quick Draw, however, since you need all of those things in your hands.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I think Wings of Flurry is also a nice seed, uncapped force damage is pretty nifty, the only downside is the short range (it is a 30 ft radius burst within 30 ft of yourself) oh and you get a +1 CL if you are a Dragonblooded or dragon character:smallcool:

[dextercorvia]

I think Wings of Flurry is also a nice seed, uncapped force damage is pretty nifty, the only downside is the short range (it is a 30 ft radius burst within 30 ft of yourself) oh and you get a +1 CL if you are a Dragonblooded or dragon character:smallcool:

Hammer of Righteousness is a 3rd level version, that is single target, but that opens up things like chain spell. The range is better (Medium) and it targets Fort, so you have to worry about mettle which is less common than evasion. There is some sacrifice, too.

[Saintheart]

Hail of Stone(SpC) is pretty cute as an AoE with no save and no SR. Shame about the 1 round casting time and 5d4 max damage, but it's hard to be immune to.

1 round casting time's taken care of by applying Rapid Spell + Quicken Spell. Extra benefits come from Fell Drain. That's only about a, what, +6 to spell level on the assumption there's no cap on spell levels.

[DeAnno]

Hail of Stone also performs very well under Arcane Spellsurge (especially for Wizards!) and is a nice recipient for Sculpt Spell.

[Snowbluff]

Magic Missile!
Obviously.

Other people probably disagree.

Force orbs, too.

Not Energy Drain, totally Enervation. You can apply almost any MM to either (Split Ray Twin Empowered Enervation, anyone). Ray spells are the best imo.

[RaggedAngel]

What spell is the best to metamagic up, assuming there is no cap on spell level? In other words, what one spell should Arcane Thesis be applied to on a wizard?

This wouldn't have anything to do with the Epic game you're about to run, would it? *goes off to buy another Rod of Absorption*

Now that I've taken care of that, I feel like Enervation's a classic, but too easy to be immune to at higher levels. Wings of Flurry is freaking fantastic, but a Sorcerer-only spell. I feel like your best bet for damage is either Orb of Fire or Force, or Hail of Stone if you want to slap Fell Draining on it.

[mootoall]

Naw, this thread's for a character o' mine, I promise. Though it's also just useful to know. And a note, no Sorcerer spells; it's most definitely a Wizard.

[dextercorvia]

Naw, this thread's for a character o' mine, I promise. Though it's also just useful to know. And a note, no Sorcerer spells; it's most definitely a Wizard.

Then, like I said, Hammer of Righteousness is a good replacement for Wings of Flurry.

[GoatBoy]

Time Stop.

It's like taking infinity, and then making it double infinity.

[Golden Ladybug]

Shame about no Wings of Flurry, because I was about to point out the Spellwarp Sniper exploit that lets you do uncapped d6s and daze without them getting a save...Or the shenanigans you can pull off with Arcane Thesis: Greater Arcane Fusion

Otherwise, I'd have to suggest Combust. There is the obvious Fortune Shuffle trick, but its also just a handy level 20 dealing up to 80 damage, and they only get to save against catching fire. Occular Spell means you don't need to grab onto the "whatever-it-is-i'm-going-to-kill-now" to set them on fire, City Spell and all the other Energy Substituition spells beat Fire Resistance, Twinned, Split Ray (if you can use a Twinned Split ray and get 4 Rays out of it; I have no idea) and Repeating for more Powah, and obviously Maximised and Empowered. Enhanced too, if it is indeed part of an epic game.

So, anyway, lets see what we can do. For the purpose of this, I'll assume Wizard X/Incantatrix 10/Other Y, for Improved Metamagic. Every little bit helps.

Occular (+?) City (+?) Twinned (+2) Repeating (+1) Invisible (-1) Sanctum (-1) Split (+0?) Empowered (+0) Maximised (+1) Enhanced (+2) Combust

Around about a 6th Level Slot, I think. I'm too tired to get out my books right now to check on the Adjustments for Occular, Split Ray and City Spell. Costly in Feats (at least 11; possible, but not fun)

All in all, does 720+40d8x2 over two turns, and you're able to fire another one in a 2nd level slot next turn. All up, thats 2880+160d8 damage. And they then need to make 16 Saves against being on fire.

DISCLAIMER: ANY AND ALL METAMAGIC ABUSE DONE AT 4AM IS UNLIKELY TO BE RAW/RAI OR CORRECT IN EVEN THE MOST BASIC OF SENSES

[tyckspoon]

Repeating (+1)


Tangent/Rant: Ok, I get why Repeating is used in trying to make big impressive looking damage numbers, I do. But it's actually pretty bad in practice. Twin Spell lets you cast the spell twice, making all appropriate decisions. That's good; you can nuke one guy twice as hard or multi-target as the situation demands. Repeat Spell makes you cast the same spell again *exactly the same way as the first time.* That's.. less useful, when you're talking about a spell that has already been optimized into a near certain killer. If you just completely incinerated your target on the first cast, duplicating that spell next round is just going to hit the empty square that used to be your victim. Unless some other target helpfully stepped into the line of fire, all you're doing is wasting spell levels on burning empty air.

[Eldariel]

Combust is an excellent seed from Spell Compendium; doesn't have an attack roll (big weakness of Orb of Fire is Exceptional Deflection from creatures with access to epic feats, such as Dragons), 2nd level, does decent damage, can be Searing Spelled.

[subject42]

Acid splash is another good one, just because it's already at level 0. Fell Drain/Fell Animate stacks on to that one nicely, especially if you want to start the zombie apocalypse.

[dextercorvia]

Combust is an excellent seed from Spell Compendium; doesn't have an attack roll (big weakness of Orb of Fire is Exceptional Deflection from creatures with access to epic feats, such as Dragons), 2nd level, does decent damage, can be Searing Spelled.

Combust is a touch attack in my spell compendium.

[Eldariel]

Combust is a touch attack in my spell compendium.

Ironically, melee touch can't be negated with Exceptional Deflection.

[mootoall]

But Combust has no ranged attack roll, which Exceptional Deflection is effective against. Edit: ninja'd! Incidentally, Infinite Deflection, Exceptional Deflection and Reflect Arrows is a nasty combination.

[dextercorvia]

Ironically, melee touch can't be negated with Exceptional Deflection.

That is still different from no attack roll. Also, it requires you to be in touch range, or spend more resources. And, if avoiding Exceptional Deflection is a problem, then you can't just pick up Reach Spell, or Ocular Spell. That pretty much leaves you with using a familiar, or spectral hand. I would consider both iffy methods for delivering your Doomy Spell of Doom.

[mootoall]

Well, without Infinite Deflection, Quickened still gets any spell through Deflect Arrows/Exceptional Deflection if you cast it twice.

[Snowbluff]

Shame about no Wings of Flurry, because I was about to point out the Spellwarp Sniper exploit that lets you do uncapped d6s and daze without them getting a save...Or the shenanigans you can pull off with Arcane Thesis: Greater Arcane Fusion

Otherwise, I'd have to suggest Combust. There is the obvious Fortune Shuffle trick, but its also just a handy level 20 dealing up to 80 damage, and they only get to save against catching fire. Occular Spell means you don't need to grab onto the "whatever-it-is-i'm-going-to-kill-now" to set them on fire, City Spell and all the other Energy Substituition spells beat Fire Resistance, Twinned, Split Ray (if you can use a Twinned Split ray and get 4 Rays out of it; I have no idea) and Repeating for more Powah, and obviously Maximised and Empowered. Enhanced too, if it is indeed part of an epic game.

So, anyway, lets see what we can do. For the purpose of this, I'll assume Wizard X/Incantatrix 10/Other Y, for Improved Metamagic. Every little bit helps.

Occular (+?) City (+?) Twinned (+2) Repeating (+1) Invisible (-1) Sanctum (-1) Split (+0?) Empowered (+0) Maximised (+1) Enhanced (+2) Combust

Around about a 6th Level Slot, I think. I'm too tired to get out my books right now to check on the Adjustments for Occular, Split Ray and City Spell. Costly in Feats (at least 11; possible, but not fun)

All in all, does 720+40d8x2 over two turns, and you're able to fire another one in a 2nd level slot next turn. All up, thats 2880+160d8 damage. And they then need to make 16 Saves against being on fire.

DISCLAIMER: ANY AND ALL METAMAGIC ABUSE DONE AT 4AM IS UNLIKELY TO BE RAW/RAI OR CORRECT IN EVEN THE MOST BASIC OF SENSES

Split Ray is indeed +2 when unmodified, which the source of my fondnees for rays :smallbiggrin:

[sonofzeal]

Along the lines of Enervation, I've seen some fantastic abuse of the Poison spell, with similar caveats - can instagib or massively nerf a wide range of enemies, but immunities are relatively common. Given that Enervation is Sor/Wiz only though, Poison is the logical alternative for Divine casters.

[Godskook]

Tangent/Rant: Ok, I get why Repeating is used in trying to make big impressive looking damage numbers, I do. But it's actually pretty bad in practice. Twin Spell lets you cast the spell twice, making all appropriate decisions. That's good; you can nuke one guy twice as hard or multi-target as the situation demands. Repeat Spell makes you cast the same spell again *exactly the same way as the first time.* That's.. less useful, when you're talking about a spell that has already been optimized into a near certain killer. If you just completely incinerated your target on the first cast, duplicating that spell next round is just going to hit the empty square that used to be your victim. Unless some other target helpfully stepped into the line of fire, all you're doing is wasting spell levels on burning empty air.

Delay Spell + Time Stop is why you're not entirely right on this one(not entirely wrong either, but....).

Also, you're blatantly wrong about the bolded portion. Only a fairly short list of decisions are explicitly listed as 'locked' by Repeat Spell. Other things decided "at time of casting" are not listed as being decided, and thus should be decided in the following round when the repeated version is "cast".

Admittedly, Delay limits the possible spell seeds quite harshly, but I was being largely pedantic here for accuracy's sake.

[tyckspoon]

Also, you're blatantly wrong about the bolded portion. Only a fairly short list of decisions are explicitly listed as 'locked' by Repeat Spell. Other things decided "at time of casting" are not listed as being decided, and thus should be decided in the following round when the repeated version is "cast".


Ok, it's not 100% accurate, but it does lock pretty much all the relevant decisions when you're casting attack spells- it starts at the same place, affects the same area, and if it's a targeted spell, has to hit the same target(s) as the first casting or the spell fails. I suppose you could argue that Effect spells like Rays are not locked into repeating their trajectory because they are not specifically called out and they aren't area spells, and I don't know if I could argue against that as a RAW statement, but the intent of 'affect the same area' seems to be that your rays would get launched through the exact same line of fire as well.

[Godskook]

Ok, it's not 100% accurate, but it does lock pretty much all the relevant decisions when you're casting attack spells- it starts at the same place, affects the same area, and if it's a targeted spell, has to hit the same target(s) as the first casting or the spell fails. I suppose you could argue that Effect spells like Rays are not locked into repeating their trajectory because they are not specifically called out and they aren't area spells, and I don't know if I could argue against that as a RAW statement, but the intent of 'affect the same area' seems to be that your rays would get launched through the exact same line of fire as well.

It would arguably follow the expected trajectory given by the line between the target and the casting point(assuming the target is still within 30', which is quite a large margin in skirmishes where any BFC exists).

Also, at least one fairly important choices is most likely left till the second round: Mastery of Elements, allowing you to adjust elements on the fly should you want to do so.