Random Crusader Thought

[SilverSavio]

As I was just going about my day I stopped and pondered. Both Warblades and Swordsages have a Dual capstone with Dual Stances and Dual Boosts respectfully.

The question that sprung forth from my mind was "Why does the Crusader not have something to the effect of Dual Strikes?" If it is too powerful, then it should have a limit on it like the Swordsages. Something like you can only use it only 3/day. Crusaders are tanks that dish out so damn decent damage, and also I think that their current capstone is a little wanting as is.

I would like to know what y'all think on this.

[Big Fau]

As I was just going about my day I stopped and pondered. Both Warblades and Swordsages have a Dual capstone with Dual Stances and Dual Boosts respectfully.

The question that sprung forth from my mind was "Why does the Crusader not have something to the effect of Dual Strikes?" If it is too powerful, then it should have a limit on it like the Swordsages. Something like you can only use it only 3/day. Crusaders are tanks that dish out so damn decent damage, and also I think that their current capstone is a little wanting as is.

I would like to know what y'all think on this.

I believe it's partially because their Recovery Mechanic makes something reliant on readied maneuvers a tad unreliable.

In reality, Warblades should have had Dual Strike and Crusaders should have had Dual Stance (so you can stack Martial Spirit and Aura of Triumph).

[Zaq]

I believe that Crusaders have no real capstone because the designers flat-out intended for them to take a two-level Fighter (or whatever) dip. (Seriously, look at that stance progression and tell me that the class isn't meant to dip.)

That said, eh, sure, I don't think it would be broken to use two strikes at level 20. It's level 20, after all.

[gkathellar]

I always took Crusaders to be counter-focused, not strike-focused. That's what Zealous Surge is all about.

[Big Fau]

I believe that Crusaders have no real capstone because the designers flat-out intended for them to take a two-level Fighter (or whatever) dip. (Seriously, look at that stance progression and tell me that the class isn't meant to dip.)

This was fixed in the proper errata. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11890.msg405383#msg405383)


I always took Crusaders to be counter-focused, not strike-focused. That's what Zealous Surge is all about.

Except they have the least access to counters. Diamond Mind and Setting Sun have the most, meaning the Swordsage is more counter-oriented.


Although I feel that was a design flaw. IMO, the styles should have a more even variety of maneuvers between them. It's very difficult to call a character a Master of X when they have to dip three styles just to meet their maneuvers known minimum.

[JaronK]

I would have let them use strike maneuvers during AoOs as their capstone, since that does like them do two strikes in one round (and fits their more defensive nature).

JaronK

[Dusk Eclipse]

I personally think that Swordsage's Dual Boost shouldn't be 3/day, really it is not that powerful and if you compare with Dual Stance....

But yeah someone most likely screwed the final version of the Crusader, their Stance Progression and their "Capstone" really support that.

[Big Fau]

I personally think that Swordsage's Dual Boost shouldn't be 3/day, really it is not that powerful and if you compare with Dual Stance....

It isn't even as powerful as the RKV's Divine Impetus...

[Dusk Eclipse]

I was just comparing it with Base classes; but yeah you are right.

[SilverSavio]

So for a Homebrewed ACF for a Warblade 20, would it be kosher to give them a move oh lets call it Battle Champion and kick the Dual Stances over to the Crusader at 20?

Battle Champion (Ex): Through your hard work and dedication you can punish those who are aren't wary of your martial skill.

You can use a Strike whenever an opponent provokes an AoO.


What else would this need to be fair for play?

[gkathellar]

Crusaders are already arguably the strongest ToB class and have easy access to some of the best stances in the game. Giving them dual stance seems wrong for that reason, and also because Warblades deserve it with their high number of passive abilities.

It would at least better than giving Crusaders something like Dual Strike, though, which alongside their recovery mechanic would ensure they were firing off two strikes per round, every round, without exception.

[Sarusta]

So for a Homebrewed ACF for a Warblade 20, would it be kosher to give them a move oh lets call it Battle Champion and kick the Dual Stances over to the Crusader at 20?

Battle Champion (Ex): Through your hard work and dedication you can punish those who are aren't wary of your martial skill.

You can use a Strike whenever an opponent provokes an AoO.


What else would this need to be fair for play?

I actually think something like that would work better on a crusader than the warblade. It both sounds and works better.

[SilverSavio]

I actually think something like that would work better on a crusader than the warblade. It both sounds and works better.

I was thinking that earlier when someone mentioned that Crusader has many good stances and has to choose, but has to wait for the right strike. Which would hamper this for the Crusader a good deal.

On the other hand. The Warblade may have some good stances, but can almost always get what he wants/needs of his maneuvers for proper use in the beating of enemies.

[gkathellar]

I was thinking that earlier when someone mentioned that Crusader has many good stances and has to choose, but has to wait for the right strike. Which would hamper this for the Crusader a good deal.

Yeah, but the crusader always has strikes available. He never has to take a round off so that he can ready some maneuvers — so sure, he has to wait for the right strike, but giving him dual strike would ensure a constant flow of strikes at a level no other class could keep up with.

[Big Fau]

Yeah, but the crusader always has strikes available. He never has to take a round off so that he can ready some maneuvers — so sure, he has to wait for the right strike, but giving him dual strike would ensure a constant flow of strikes at a level no other class could keep up with.

I think it's a bad idea, seeing as Crusaders are encouraged to use Strikes on their turn (Tide of Chaos, for example, is annoying to resolve when you use it on an AoO).


Dual Strike is a better idea for martial adepts anyway. Too many maneuvers require you to do things that interact in odd ways for them to be used on AoOs. Imagine trying to resolve Tornado Throw on an AoO...

[navar100]

Perhaps at level 20 the Crusader can choose the order his maneuvers are granted.

[SilverSavio]

That sounds really powerful and a little un-fluffed. Maybe they sacrifice a maneuver granted to chose which one they get by focusing their divine inspiration into what they need. I will think on this.

[Person_Man]

This was fixed in the proper errata. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11890.msg405383#msg405383)

Unofficial errata. Not that I don't respect Sinfire Titan, and agree with everything he posted. But sadly he does not/did not work for WotC and/or contribute to ToB. Or am I horribly uninformed?

[Big Fau]

Unofficial errata. Not that I don't respect Sinfire Titan, and agree with everything he posted. But sadly he does not/did not work for WotC and/or contribute to ToB. Or am I horribly uninformed?

I don't think so.

Still, Paizo is unofficial too. The only major difference is Paizo is able to publish their works and sell them. I don't think anyone over at BG has that kind of leverage.

Edit: And it looks like that link no longer contains the errata.

[navar100]

That sounds really powerful and a little un-fluffed. Maybe they sacrifice a maneuver granted to chose which one they get by focusing their divine inspiration into what they need. I will think on this.

As opposed to warblades and swordsages having all their maneuvers readied given to them since level 1?

[Big Fau]

As opposed to warblades and swordsages having all their maneuvers readied given to them since level 1?

A part of that tradeoff is that the Crusader's recovery mechanic requires no actions to use. Although that becomes a problem when you look at the Swordsage's recovery mechanic...

[Person_Man]

Edit: And it looks like that link no longer contains the errata.

Googled up the correct one (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=7mdkg18ieu5vkesi4dn29qaj33&topic=11890.0;prev_next=next#new). Be sure to click on the Spoilers.

[navar100]

A part of that tradeoff is that the Crusader's recovery mechanic requires no actions to use. Although that becomes a problem when you look at the Swordsage's recovery mechanic...

It's level 20. A crusader at that level can already auto hit an opponent or make a saving throw or be immune to critical hits or can't die from non-death spells. Granted, even at level 20 you don't want the game to be I Win D&D but I don't see choosing the order of maneuvers granted as game-breaking. You will still have maneuvers withheld for a bit.

[Big Fau]

It's level 20. A crusader at that level can already auto hit an opponent or make a saving throw or be immune to critical hits or can't die from non-death spells. Granted, even at level 20 you don't want the game to be I Win D&D but I don't see choosing the order of maneuvers granted as game-breaking. You will still have maneuvers withheld for a bit.

In general, allowing Encounter-based I Win buttons isn't going to ruin the campaign. So I do not think that allowing the Crusader the option of picking them every time he recharges as being broken.