[PF] Is it time to run? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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Rasman

2011-10-06, 09:29 PM

So, my party's game ended mid combat this past session because the DM decided that the combat we were in could probably take hours to finish if we won the fight. Here's the situation. We're a party of level 11-13ish PCs. We have a Planar Shepherd Druid, Healing Cleric, Healing Priest, Infernal Bloodline Sorcerer, a Gensai (Races of Obsidian Twilight) Psion, Fighter (Archer Archetype) and a Draconic Bloodlined Sorcerer/Fighter/Eldritch Knight. We'll also have a CR 9-13ish or so Copper Dragon with us if he comes back next session.

"How could you possibly be having trouble with something with that many people and those combinations?"

Well...we're fighting this an Ancient Umbreal Dragon (www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon/-primal-umbral/umbral-dragon-ancient)...

Even with all that we have going for us, in the couple of rounds of combat we've had, we've barely touched it. The only spell that's hit it that did anything is Acid Arrow. It came in prebuffed with Blur, Shield, and Haste. The only good news is that it already used a Destruction and Limited Wish, so it only has two more 7th level spells to throw at us. We were smart and prebuffed with Death Ward and gave the EK SR, which ate the Destruction.

It's gotten to the point where the thing is annoyed has gone into melee with the EK and he found that he has little issue with ripping him a new one. At this point we have a shot at running, resting and recouping our spells and health without losing anyone. Should we fight it out now or come back better prepared later, even though it causes us to lose time?

Grommen

2011-10-07, 01:28 AM

:smalleek:
RUN:smalleek:

Chained Birds

2011-10-07, 01:47 AM

The Paladin in me says to fight your quarry with reckless abandon if not for your own delusions of superiority, then for the graces of the gods who watch and judge your every move.

The Cleric in me says to not listen to the previous guy as his actions usually force multiple 5000gp and exp loses as a result.

And the Rogue in me says RUN!!! But grab something as a momento on your way out.

SamBurke

2011-10-07, 01:55 AM

Return. That thing is CR 19... no matter how botched the system, it's WAAAAAY above you guys (even though you obviously have a decent to excellent level of optimization). Run, but make some Perception checks first.

Set up a game plan. Research. Then come in and try and use a surprise round to your advantage.

Dictum Mortuum

2011-10-07, 04:27 AM

The scariest thing about it are those two castings of limited wish :smalleek:

Hit it with some Dex damage :smallbiggrin:

Unseenmal

2011-10-07, 08:31 AM

I concur with everyone....RUN! Run your asses off. Even though it has used 2 of the 7th lvl spells, it still has 2 more plus all of it's 1-6th lvl spells...things like harm, slay living and greater command...and my personal favorite spell, enervation. 1 or 2 failed rolls with this thing and could be lights out for you guys.

Larpus

2011-10-07, 08:41 AM

CTrees

2011-10-07, 08:53 AM

I would run. Even if my party wanted to stay and fight, if I wasn't playing a paladin or similar? I'd be booking it.

Zarake

2011-10-07, 10:55 AM

Run, there is no way you guys can come out of that alive... Also I think it's immune to dex damage so that plan is out XD

lorddrake

2011-10-07, 03:58 PM

Just for my curiosity... Can you even outrun an ancient umbreal dragon with haste? (teleportation, of course)

I'd think one character of mine would die just looking at that! :smalleek:

Onikani

2011-10-07, 10:04 PM

... Here's the situation. We're a party of level 11-13ish PCs. ...

"How could you possibly be having trouble with something with that many people and those combinations?"

Well...we're fighting this an Ancient Umbreal Dragon (www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon/-primal-umbral/umbral-dragon-ancient)...

At this point we have a shot at running, resting and recouping our spells and health without losing anyone. Should we fight it out now or come back better prepared later, even though it causes us to lose time?

It's a good thing you included that last line, at first i thought you were asking if you should run from your oblivious DM and find a new group.

Oh well, either way the answer is yes: you should run to a new DM's table, but barring that, your PC's should run.
Or... stay and let yourselves get TPK'd just so you can call the DM a noob that doesn't have a single concept about balance or appropriate challenges.

NamelessNPC

2011-10-07, 10:58 PM

That was ridiculous. You are not supposed to be strong enough to kill every single creature you find. Some fights should be difficult, some fights should be easy, some fights should be impossible without preparation. Also, some fights should be avoided, you are not contractually obligated to fight everything

Doorhandle

2011-10-08, 01:04 AM

Words of wisdom, Nameless Npc.

Also, you should probably run, although try to return in the same day so you don't have to get it to waste it's spells...And have your shepard summon something in order to slow the monstrocity down.

Also:

:smalleek:
RUN:smalleek:

I think you gave him a heart attack....

The Gilded Duke

2011-10-08, 01:09 AM

It doesn't look like it has True Seeing.
Do two of your party members have silent image?
If not do they have Use Magic Device?

Get two wands of Silent Image
Cast Silent Image of opaque smoke around the Dragon.
Cast Silent Image of more opaque smoke around the original smoke.
To make a save against an illusion you need to interact with it. This usually requires either a move or standard action.

Hit the dragon with two illusions a round. It doesn't matter if he makes his saves each time, you soak up his Move and Standard action each round. You should be able to win with your action advantage.

Doorhandle

2011-10-08, 02:07 AM

Don't think it works like that. Unless the illusion is of something solid, the dragon will just move through it, or worse, spew it's breath weapon through it, thinking it as either A) nothing more than smoke or B) nothing more than an illusion.

Acanous

2011-10-08, 03:54 AM

This fight looks like it *Could* be winnable, depending on your spell preperation. Given how optimized your party is, start by casting Grease under it, that'll force it to make a balance check, drop it to a partial if you can lock it in place. I know you're thinking "But it can fly!" ...is it flying now? No? Follow up with Solid Fog, or have your druid keep it out of the air. If it can't fly, Grease works. Your best bet here is to break line of sight, then break line of effect. Use cover, it grants evasion. If you can't keep it pinned down and effectively attack without fear of retaliation, run.

Telok

2011-10-08, 05:41 AM

It's a totally winnable fight if you can prepare for it. Your defence is adequate but you don't seem to be ready to pump out 400ish damage in touch attacks and no save/no SR spells.

You're lucky, the DM hasn't had it dump web+grease all over you guys.

Luckmann

2011-10-08, 08:31 AM

It's a good thing you included that last line, at first i thought you were asking if you should run from your oblivious DM and find a new group.

Oh well, either way the answer is yes: you should run to a new DM's table, but barring that, your PC's should run.
Or... stay and let yourselves get TPK'd just so you can call the DM a noob that doesn't have a single concept about balance or appropriate challenges.The fact that the DM have given them a chance to flee is exactly why this encounter is entirely appropriate for their level and why this is both balanced and an appropriate challenge.

I swear, it's because of people like you we're only getting Oblivion-level of games for PC these years.

In an immersive world, there will always be threats you cannot handle. There will always be threats that will require preparations or conceited tactics. Because when push comes to shove, screw fairness and let's see if we can drop a giant rock on the dragon's head.

Edit: Oh, and my advice is to run. Run, run, run. Then, come back and drop a giant rock on his head.

Rasman

2011-10-09, 01:17 AM

If there is some way to protect the Eldritch Knight so he doesn't take damage and/or healing him back up is not really a problem (and it's certain he won't die from a single full attack), he can also run around insulting the dragon so it keeps paying attention in him and not only doesn't really think about casting again (but if does, bad things will happen), but also is negated full attacks. You also need ways to keep hitting him and do good damage so the battle doesn't last that long.

If you can get all that done, then it's possible to stay and fight, otherwise, run (grab something on the way out, it's not like he's letting you escape easily even if you don't), regroup, rethink your strategy and come back for the round 2, maybe.

I find it funny that you mention the "run around insulting the dragon" part because...we tried that...and it didn't really work...

Just for my curiosity... Can you even outrun an ancient umbreal dragon with haste? (teleportation, of course)

I'd think one character of mine would die just looking at that! :smalleek:

the answer in this situation is "yes"

we can pretty much leave so long as we don't mind squeezing past a Blade Barrier on the way out, but teleportation outside of the dungeon we're in is impossible, unfortunately...

It's a good thing you included that last line, at first i thought you were asking if you should run from your oblivious DM and find a new group.

Oh well, either way the answer is yes: you should run to a new DM's table, but barring that, your PC's should run.
Or... stay and let yourselves get TPK'd just so you can call the DM a noob that doesn't have a single concept about balance or appropriate challenges.

Well...actually...this is actually on par with the level of difficulty of the campaign, truth be told, and is part of something that is summoning random creatures for us to fight...we just got unlucky with the Dice gods, tbh

Words of wisdom, Nameless Npc.

Also, you should probably run, although try to return in the same day so you don't have to get it to waste it's spells...And have your shepard summon something in order to slow the monstrocity down.

Funny story about that whole summoning thing...last time I tried to summon something, an Air Elemental to vacuum up some inhaled poison, it didn't work and I summoned a Hellcat that latched onto my shoulder...summoning is a bad idea...because those are rolled randomly as well if the spell flubs...

The only good news about that part is that we'd have a chance with a level 1 summoning spell to summon a Solar and these things seem to act according to their alignments, as if we encountered them in their natural habitats

---------------------

I'm the druid in the party, but I feel a bit gimp at the moment because I really only have one spell that's going to cripple this thing...eventually...

Rain of Roses from BoED. The problem is that the room is HUGE. 500ft in every direction, so him getting away from it isn't going to be hard. But that's also assuming that we get though his SR...

Little Brother

2011-10-09, 01:37 AM

Have the sorcerer cast Assay Spell Resistance and Shivering Touch. Coup de Grace.

If your sorcerer didn't take either of those, or solid fog/Grease/other no-save-just-lose spells, you're boned, run.

Coidzor

2011-10-09, 01:42 AM

The fact that the DM have given them a chance to flee is exactly why this encounter is entirely appropriate for their level and why this is both balanced and an appropriate challenge.

Unless he's lying, which DM's do love to do when they're actively out to be bastards, so you can never really rule that out as a potential motive there, unless you can find a non-human to DM for you, in which case you've got more pressing concerns.

Chained Birds

2011-10-09, 02:40 AM

Although I said to run, it would be cool if you guys harmed the thing enough to make it 'poof' away (A viable tactic for an intelligent dragon facing off against a group of crazed, depraved adventures) or even killed it.
If it is the latter, please tell us if you DM said "I really didn't think you'd actually try and fight that thing head on." or something along those lines.

Nostalgia: lvl 1 CW samuria (not optimized), monk, swashbuckler, and ninja vs a random Evil Outsider similar in fighting and appearance to that of a Balor... We won; our DM was the most surprised. Especially as he ment for us to run, let alone fight and WIN! And with no casualties even.

Golden Ladybug

2011-10-09, 05:53 AM

Haha, ha, oh my. Now, if theres one thing that I learn from my first campaign (other than to not play with the DM who takes you from level one to level thirteen in ~five sessions) its that taking on the thing with a CR much greater than yours will generally end badly even though I would have killed that freakin' Epic Level Sorcerer if it wasn't for that fiat'd in AMF

So I suggest running. Or, collapsing the ceiling of the room you're in and hiding under and around the dragon so that it takes most, if not all, of the Massive Damage from many tons of falling rock. Depending on the structuraly integrity of the location you could probably collapse it with a few Blast spells. Have the SorcKnight or the IB Sorcerer got Orbs of Force to throw around? They'd blow a few holes in the ceiling. Then get the Psion to pull it down with their trippy mind powers (I apologise, I have no idea how Psions work, or if they can do that).

Or, you could use Prestidigation and a Decanter of Endless Water to scald it to death...Oooh! You should get one of your Casters to go and Fabricate heaps of Gunpowder, lure the Dragon over to it and throw some sort of fire on it! Or Shun the Dark Gods to get the appropriate feats and use the Locate City Bomb (you've got death ward, right? You'll be fine :smallwink:) on it!!! 500ft is enough to get some decent damage on it. Trade one big Dragon for one Big Wight-Dragon and use Turn Undead on it!

Stand your ground guys, you got this :smallbiggrin:

In all seriousness, don't do that. Running will probably be your best hope of survival.

...but is life worth passing up such a glorious last stand? I'll leave that one to you

Calanon

2011-10-09, 06:20 AM

...but is life worth passing up such a glorious last stand? I'll leave that one to you

My DM said that to me 3 rounds before I died :smallfrown:
Thank god for mindraped Clerics :smallsmile:

PirateLizard

2011-10-09, 11:20 AM

as per 3.5 SRD 5% of encounters are supposed to be undefeatable. If your Dm knows this...he is going to use it against you as soon as death means little to you but a level loss at worst.

Also...Go on! Get out of here! Save yourself! Run! GET TO THA CHOPPA!

Time to go.

Ursus the Grim

2011-10-09, 11:26 AM

Planar Shepherd Druid

So what house rules are you playing Planar Shepherd under? What's the campaign? Because this right here is something everyone seems to have missed. Is it ECS or is it a new one from PF?

Jeraa

2011-10-09, 11:56 AM

as per 3.5 SRD 5% of encounters are supposed to be undefeatable. If your Dm knows this...he is going to use it against you as soon as death means little to you but a level loss at worst.

That is true... in 3.5. But the OP specifically said Pathfinder. That section is not in the Pathfinder books.

PirateLizard

2011-10-09, 12:00 PM

That is true... in 3.5. But the OP specifically said Pathfinder. That section is not in the Pathfinder books.

The point is more: if you never run away from anything ever are you really playing DnD?

And isn't PFs whole thing something about 3.5 living or thriving or something?

Zagaroth

2011-10-09, 12:29 PM

Well...actually...this is actually on par with the level of difficulty of the campaign, truth be told, and is part of something that is summoning random creatures for us to fight...we just got unlucky with the Dice gods, tbh

Funny story about that whole summoning thing...last time I tried to summon something, an Air Elemental to vacuum up some inhaled poison, it didn't work and I summoned a Hellcat that latched onto my shoulder...summoning is a bad idea...because those are rolled randomly as well if the spell flubs...

The only good news about that part is that we'd have a chance with a level 1 summoning spell to summon a Solar and these things seem to act according to their alignments, as if we encountered them in their natural habitats

Gah, randomized SM /SNA spells? that is bad...

Rasman

2011-10-10, 03:07 AM

Have the sorcerer cast Assay Spell Resistance and Shivering Touch. Coup de Grace.

If your sorcerer didn't take either of those, or solid fog/Grease/other no-save-just-lose spells, you're boned, run.

I don't think he has either, it's also immune to cold damage, so even if he had Shivering Touch, I think he's Immune.

I'm not entirely sure what spell he has, actually...I'll have to ask so we can talk about how to handle this thing...

So what house rules are you playing Planar Shepherd under? What's the campaign? Because this right here is something everyone seems to have missed. Is it ECS or is it a new one from PF?

It's the Ebberon one. I just had to gimp myself a little and I couldn't take the planes that gave me 12 rounds to their one and such. I ended up with Lamania, the one that lets you Wildshape into any animal and the Outsiders. I'm a level off from Leonal and all that jazz, otherwise I'd be Fireball Turreting it already.

Looking at the thing, it's weakness is it's Dex, obviously. But are there any spells that target Dex that aren't Cold spells?

Little Brother

2011-10-10, 08:18 AM

I don't think he has either, it's also immune to cold damage, so even if he had Shivering Touch, I think he's Immune.

I'm not entirely sure what spell he has, actually...I'll have to ask so we can talk about how to handle this thing...Uh, it's Dex damage, not cold damage.

It's the Ebberon one. I just had to gimp myself a little and I couldn't take the planes that gave me 12 rounds to their one and such. I ended up with Lamania, the one that lets you Wildshape into any animal and the Outsiders. I'm a level off from Leonal and all that jazz, otherwise I'd be Fireball Turreting it already.

Looking at the thing, it's weakness is it's Dex, obviously. But are there any spells that target Dex that aren't Cold spells?Being a [Cold]Spell has nothing to do with doing Cold Damage.

Can you make yourself invisible? Can you template out your Wildshape target to absurdity?

Rasman

2011-10-10, 11:47 PM

Uh, it's Dex damage, not cold damage.

Being a [Cold]Spell has nothing to do with doing Cold Damage.

Can you make yourself invisible? Can you template out your Wildshape target to absurdity?

I wasn't sure about the cold spell thing, thanks for clarifying.

I can't do invisibility on my own yet. Next level, Invisible Stalker Wildshape.

Doorhandle

2011-10-11, 04:29 AM

I wasn't sure about the cold spell thing, thanks for clarifying.

I can't do invisibility on my own yet. Next level, Invisible Stalker Wildshape.

P.K your teammates for the XP! It's the only way to survive!

Little Brother

2011-10-11, 06:18 PM

P.K your teammates for the XP! It's the only way to survive!I support this message. I recommend that you grab a pick and Coup-de-Grace them while they sleep. Easiest way. And if they wake up, you're still a DRUID, you can kill them.

Rasman

2011-10-12, 07:16 AM

I support this message. I recommend that you grab a pick and Coup-de-Grace them while they sleep. Easiest way. And if they wake up, you're still a DRUID, you can kill them.

as tempting as it may be, I'm already told I'm evil just because I'm True Neutral

apparently apathy is evil, or something...

...and the Wizard I hate isn't there...so...no dice for now...

Golden Ladybug

2011-10-12, 09:09 AM

Rasman

2011-10-13, 10:02 PM

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/46/1212577-zappbrannigan.png

What makes a man go Neutral? Is it lust for Gold? Power? Or were you just born with a Heart full of Neutrality

In all seriousness...not really

I suggest tracking down the Wizard you don't like, eating him, and using the EXP to wild shape into something that can turn Invisible. Perfect plan

I'm sure the Dragon would let you call a time out :smallbiggrin:

lol...funny you bring that up, that's the running joke with me and the DM, he looks at me and says that ALL the time

I have a pretty decent Kiff voice, so I always get him with

"Apathy, Sir. Apathy."

It works every time.