Gish help

[Snowbluff]

Hey! Sup? How are you? How are the kids?

So my buddy and I are joining a campaign and we are both trying something new. I am doing my first druid. My buddy wants a sorcadin.

Here's the hard part. We have access to flaws/feats/class feature from of the WotC books, but we can only have classes and prestiges from the PHB and the DMG.

I have some questions. Okay, so what do Gish setups start with 2 in paladin? Is Eldritch Knight a good Idea for this setup? He is taking arcane strike and power attack. That wasn't question that was a statement.

Any general tips, easy builds for this? Also, some druid advice wouldn't hurt, either. Oh yeah, no nattering either. This is not an optimization thread.

[Curious]

You may want to ask your DM if you can import this class: Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus).

Very simple, very effective. Take from levels 1-20. Grab the Experimental Spellcaster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/words-of-power) feat from this section, so you can get this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/words-of-power/effect-words/accelerate) spell.

[Snowbluff]

You may want to ask your DM if you can import this class: Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus).

Very simple, very effective. Take from levels 1-20. Grab the Experimental Spellcaster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/words-of-power) feat from this section, so you can get this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/words-of-power/effect-words/accelerate) spell.

Accelerate sounds good.

The DM made it clear only DMG and PHB for classes though. :smallfrown:

[Curious]

Accelerate sounds good.

The DM made it clear only DMG and PHB for classes though. :smallfrown:

Ah, well in that case just going Paladin 2/ Sorc 6/ EK 10/ Sorc 2 is fine. 8th level spells are good for pretty much anyone.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'll agree that Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 6/ Eldritch Knight 10/ Sorcerer 2 is going to be your best/only option, but there is one alternative that he may not like so much. Before I get into that, he should probably use the +0 LA Aasimar (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a), for which he can indefinitely delay (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a) spending a level on the +1 LA and other racial benefits. That starts him out with Cha +2 and the Outsider (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#outsiderType) (Native (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#nativeSubtype)) creature type, which gives him proficiency in all martial weapons as a racial trait. That brings me to that other option for classes, which with Outsider weapon proficiencies he could actually go Sorcerer 6/ Eldritch Knight 10/ Sorcerer 4, and just play the character as a righteous warrior without taking any Paladin levels at all; just role-play the character as though he did have Paladin levels. Maybe use the Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) variant from UA if he wants more HP/BAB and doesn't mind fewer daily and known spells, but that's almost never recommended.

If he does use Paladin levels, the Harmonious Knight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) substitution level(s) are highly recommended, he can get a Badge of Valor (MIC) to make his Inspire Courage +2, which should help out a lot in the early levels. If he has spare feats, Melodic Casting (CM) will allow him to still cast spells and continue (quietly) inspiring (whistling is good) throughout a dungeon crawl, since he can only activate it 2/day with Paladin 2. Draconic Heritage (sonic) and Dragonfire Inspiration are also useful if he has plenty of extra feats. Obtain Familiar (CA) and Improved Familiar (DMG and CW have lists) could be useful for a flying mount or something that he can share a Polymorph with, and Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) is extremely useful with Harmonious Knight or just for a meat shield in general. If he's not going to use a mount, he should get Tumble instead of Ride (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) as a class skill for his Paladin and Eldritch Knight levels.

Your Druid should use (Rod of Extended) (Greater) Luminous Armor on the Sorcadin and himself every day. Get a Rod of Bodily Restoration (MIC) to fix the Str damage sacrifice that occurs when the spell's duration runs out. Another extremely cheesy trick is to use (Lesser Rod of Extended) Snowsight and Obscuring Snow every day, from Frostburn. Make the rest of your party each buy you a 1st level Pearl of Power and each go in thirds for more Lesser Rods of Extend so you can put Snowsight on each of them at no additional cost to yourself. It would only be 2,000 gp per character, so not a bad investment at all, especially if multiple characters keep Obscuring Snow cast while adventuring, which they should.

For the Druid, definitely get Natural Bond and a 'level -3' companion such as a Fleshraker dinosaur (MM3) or a Dire Eagle (RoS), since you can add your own bonuses and penalties in the most beneficial order you'll still count your full Druid level toward its benefits. Natural Spell at 6th level is an obvious choice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html). Companion Spellbond (PH2) is another good choice if you'll be sharing a lot of buffs, which you probably should, especially considering (Greater) Luminous Armor can be shared with it but not cast on it directly. (Lesser) Rods of Extend are some of the best items in the game, use them for Longstrider, Creeping Cold, Barkskin, Bite of the Werecreature, Enrage Animal (on your companion), etc. Also get a Circlet of Rapid Casting (MIC) with an Enhancement bonus to Wisdom added (MIC p234) and a Wilding Clasp (MIC), along with a Monk's Belt with a Wilding Clasp to add your Wis bonus to AC. Feats like Ashbound (ECS) and Greenbound Summoning (LEoF) are great to have if you're summoning a lot, Spell Focus: Conjuration and Augment Summoning should be secondary to those, and get a Ring of the Beast (CC). Get a standard Strand of Prayer Beads which has had the Bead of Smiting removed for 9,000 gp (DMG pricing), and use the Bead of Karma before casting your hour/level and 24 hour buffs each day. Cast Greater/Superior Resistance every day.

Put Unguent of Timelessness on a few dozen Bone Talisman (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) (Turning) spell foci, so it lasts 365 times longer than normal. Number them, prepare that spell once each day, and every day cast it on the next one in order so that you always have quite a few full-level Turn Undead uses available (full-level +4 with a Bead of Karma). Always use the one with the shortest remaining duration. If you use Illumian (Naenhoon) for your race, you can take Extend Spell and Persistent Spell and use Bone Talisman turning uses to Persist two of your buffs each day (Bite of the Weretiger and Stormrage), though it will take quite a few 2nd level spell slots and/or pearls of power to accomplish daily. You can set up a pile of Timeless Bone Talismans during downtime and gradually go through them throughout an adventure if you're high enough level.

Once you get a few 6th level spells each day, get a 6th level Pearl of Power and a standard Metamagic Rod of Extend. Every other day prepare Energy Immunity once and Superior Resistance once, use the Rod of Extend to cast each, and the pearl to recover an Energy Immunity and cast it again with the rod, so each lasts 48 hours. On the days in between, prepare Energy Immunity twice, and use the pearl and rod to cast it three times, so those too will last 48 hours. That will give you continual immunity to all five energy types and a +6 Resistance bonus to all your saving throws, for a cost of two 6th level spell slots per day and those two items.

[hex0]

Ah, well in that case just going Paladin 2/ Sorc 6/ EK 10/ Sorc 2 is fine. 8th level spells are good for pretty much anyone.

That is the best your could do in core only. Is this srd only or literally core only?

Loremaster 2 or Archmage 2 at the end (or in the middle of EK) would be decent.

Depending on what level you start and if UA is allowed I would actually prefer Cleric/Prestige Paldin. But I'm weird like that.

[Snowbluff]

That is the best your could do in core only. Is this srd only or literally core only?

Loremaster 2 or Archmage 2 at the end (or in the middle of EK) would be decent.

Depending on what level you start and if UA is allowed I would actually prefer Cleric/Prestige Paldin. But I'm weird like that.

He is quite fond of the spontaneous casting, so cleric is right out. And we are limited to only PHB and DMG for classes and PRCs, so I'll talk to him about using the LM or AM PRCs to cap.


I'll agree that Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 6/ Eldritch Knight 10/ Sorcerer 2 is going to be your best/only option, but there is one alternative that he may not like so much. Before I get into that, he should probably use the +0 LA Aasimar (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a), for which he can indefinitely delay (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a) spending a level on the +1 LA and other racial benefits. That starts him out with Cha +2 and the Outsider (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#outsiderType) (Native (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#nativeSubtype)) creature type, which gives him proficiency in all martial weapons as a racial trait. That brings me to that other option for classes, which with Outsider weapon proficiencies he could actually go Sorcerer 6/ Eldritch Knight 10/ Sorcerer 4, and just play the character as a righteous warrior without taking any Paladin levels at all; just role-play the character as though he did have Paladin levels. Maybe use the Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) variant from UA if he wants more HP/BAB and doesn't mind fewer daily and known spells, but that's almost never recommended.

If he does use Paladin levels, the Harmonious Knight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) substitution level(s) are highly recommended, he can get a Badge of Valor (MIC) to make his Inspire Courage +2, which should help out a lot in the early levels. If he has spare feats, Melodic Casting (CM) will allow him to still cast spells and continue (quietly) inspiring (whistling is good) throughout a dungeon crawl, since he can only activate it 2/day with Paladin 2. Draconic Heritage (sonic) and Dragonfire Inspiration are also useful if he has plenty of extra feats. Obtain Familiar (CA) and Improved Familiar (DMG and CW have lists) could be useful for a flying mount or something that he can share a Polymorph with, and Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) is extremely useful with Harmonious Knight or just for a meat shield in general. If he's not going to use a mount, he should get Tumble instead of Ride (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) as a class skill for his Paladin and Eldritch Knight levels.

Your Druid should use (Rod of Extended) (Greater) Luminous Armor on the Sorcadin and himself every day. Get a Rod of Bodily Restoration (MIC) to fix the Str damage sacrifice that occurs when the spell's duration runs out. Another extremely cheesy trick is to use (Lesser Rod of Extended) Snowsight and Obscuring Snow every day, from Frostburn. Make the rest of your party each buy you a 1st level Pearl of Power and each go in thirds for more Lesser Rods of Extend so you can put Snowsight on each of them at no additional cost to yourself. It would only be 2,000 gp per character, so not a bad investment at all, especially if multiple characters keep Obscuring Snow cast while adventuring, which they should.

For the Druid, definitely get Natural Bond and a 'level -3' companion such as a Fleshraker dinosaur (MM3) or a Dire Eagle (RoS), since you can add your own bonuses and penalties in the most beneficial order you'll still count your full Druid level toward its benefits. Natural Spell at 6th level is an obvious choice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html). Companion Spellbond (PH2) is another good choice if you'll be sharing a lot of buffs, which you probably should, especially considering (Greater) Luminous Armor can be shared with it but not cast on it directly. (Lesser) Rods of Extend are some of the best items in the game, use them for Longstrider, Creeping Cold, Barkskin, Bite of the Werecreature, Enrage Animal (on your companion), etc. Also get a Circlet of Rapid Casting (MIC) with an Enhancement bonus to Wisdom added (MIC p234) and a Wilding Clasp (MIC), along with a Monk's Belt with a Wilding Clasp to add your Wis bonus to AC. Feats like Ashbound (ECS) and Greenbound Summoning (LEoF) are great to have if you're summoning a lot, Spell Focus: Conjuration and Augment Summoning should be secondary to those, and get a Ring of the Beast (CC). Get a standard Strand of Prayer Beads which has had the Bead of Smiting removed for 9,000 gp (DMG pricing), and use the Bead of Karma before casting your hour/level and 24 hour buffs each day. Cast Greater/Superior Resistance every day.

Put Unguent of Timelessness on a few dozen Bone Talisman (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) (Turning) spell foci, so it lasts 365 times longer than normal. Number them, prepare that spell once each day, and every day cast it on the next one in order so that you always have quite a few full-level Turn Undead uses available (full-level +4 with a Bead of Karma). Always use the one with the shortest remaining duration. If you use Illumian (Naenhoon) for your race, you can take Extend Spell and Persistent Spell and use Bone Talisman turning uses to Persist two of your buffs each day (Bite of the Weretiger and Stormrage), though it will take quite a few 2nd level spell slots and/or pearls of power to accomplish daily. You can set up a pile of Timeless Bone Talismans during downtime and gradually go through them throughout an adventure if you're high enough level.

Once you get a few 6th level spells each day, get a 6th level Pearl of Power and a standard Metamagic Rod of Extend. Every other day prepare Energy Immunity once and Superior Resistance once, use the Rod of Extend to cast each, and the pearl to recover an Energy Immunity and cast it again with the rod, so each lasts 48 hours. On the days in between, prepare Energy Immunity twice, and use the pearl and rod to cast it three times, so those too will last 48 hours. That will give you continual immunity to all five energy types and a +6 Resistance bonus to all your saving throws, for a cost of two 6th level spell slots per day and those two items.

Luminous Armor and the Rods work great, and the Fleshraker completely wrecks anything. We ended fighting a ton of Wights and a Skele Minotaur, in hindsight spending a few days prepping for Turn Undead would of went over well. :smallwink:

Now, I haven't used Wildshape yet (I started at level 5), but now that I have natural spell, I want to stay in it alot longer. The description is crazy vague. Do I keep my shield's AC bonuses? Do any of my stats change? Do I get the animal's special abilities?

[hex0]

Loremaster and Archmage are both in core.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Luminous Armor and the Rods work great, and the Fleshraker completely wrecks anything. We ended fighting a ton of Wights and a Skele Minotaur, in hindsight spending a few days prepping for Turn Undead would of went over well. :smallwink:

Now, I haven't used Wildshape yet (I started at level 5), but now that I have natural spell, I want to stay in it alot longer. The description is crazy vague. Do I keep my shield's AC bonuses? Do any of my stats change? Do I get the animal's special abilities?

The current version of Wild Shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape) (post-errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a)) mimics Alternate Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm). That should make it easier, as it explains everything that you gain/lose/keep when using it. You should probably use the form of a Fleshraker dinosaur until 8th level, then switch to Dire Lion or something equally useful (brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0).

[Coidzor]

Now, I haven't used Wildshape yet (I started at level 5), but now that I have natural spell, I want to stay in it alot longer. The description is crazy vague. Do I keep my shield's AC bonuses? Do any of my stats change? Do I get the animal's special abilities?

Physical shield? No. Not without a wilding clasp, unless those don't work on shields, or possibly Beastskin or the other wildshape friendly magic armor property.

Shield Spell? Yes.