Fixing lesser aasimar

[Overshee]

One of my players wants to be a lesser aasimar swordsage, but I'm reluctant to allow the race because it seems overpowered.

How can I fix it so that it's more balanced?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Aasimar Racial Progression (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a)

Let him only take the first level so it is a LA 0 race

[subject42]

What about it seems overpowered? They're certainly better than half elves, but aren't really that special compared to humans or dwarves.

[Overshee]

Aasimar Racial Progression (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a)

Let him only take the first level so it is a LA 0 race

I like that, thanks!



What about it seems overpowered? They're certainly better than half elves, but aren't really that special compared to humans or dwarves.

Humans will always be great because of the feat but at least dwarves have a negative stat in there...

[Keld Denar]

They have a +2 to Con, argueably the most important stat to have a bonus to, a penalty to Cha, which is a dump stat in any build that doesn't completely focus on it, Darkvision is crazy useful sometimes, especially in the Dungeon half of D&D, and the movement penalty is ignored when you wear medium or heavy armor (since thats the movement speed you'd have anyway).

Dwarves are a decent race.

[Overshee]

Truth. We will have a dwarf in the party, I believe.


Switching gears to party composition, we currently have a swordsage, warblade, crusader (yes I know...), cleric, wizard, and a character I'm creating for one of my players who is currently too busy.

Suggestions for the slot? I was thinking factotum because I like them. What else could be fun and help party makeup?

[Telonius]

+2 to the most common dump stat in the game, spell-like abilities that are approximately equalled by an Everburning Torch...? The resistances are nice, but that's about all it has going for it, if he's not going Sorcerer or Bard.

Especially if he's going to be playing a mainly martial character, Lesser Aasimar really does not benefit him as much as ... well, anything with a Dex, Str, or Con bonus would.

EDIT: For party composition, it looks like you need a skillmonkey. Factotum could do nicely there. Other options would be Rogue, Bard, or Artificer. With that many melee people, I'd lean towards either Artificer or Bard. Artificer would probably win out thanks to trapfinding.

[subject42]

EDIT: For party composition, it looks like you need a skillmonkey. Factotum could do nicely there. Other options would be Rogue, Bard, or Artificer. With that many melee people, I'd lean towards either Artificer or Bard. Artificer would probably win out thanks to trapfinding.

Beguiler could be fun as well.

[Keld Denar]

2nd for Beguiler

Or maybe a Dragonfire Adept

[Incanur]

I'm not sure the lesser aasimar is overpowered, but it's definitely one of the best cleric races. +2 to Wis and Cha makes a huge difference, especially if you've only got 25-28 points to distribute.

[Overshee]

EDIT: For party composition, it looks like you need a skillmonkey. Factotum could do nicely there. Other options would be Rogue, Bard, or Artificer. With that many melee people, I'd lean towards either Artificer or Bard. Artificer would probably win out thanks to trapfinding.


Yeah I'm between factotum and artificer. I love artificers, but the player is relatively new to DnD (played 2 games before), and I don't really know if I want to spend the sheer amount of time it would take to make the character (since I'm gonna be making the character for him).

[subject42]

Yeah I'm between factotum and artificer.

Between those two I would definitely suggest factotum for a newer player.

Alternately, you could look at Binder. The ability to do something new every day is nice when you don't really know the established roles of D&D.

[Overshee]

Between those two I would definitely suggest factotum for a newer player.

Alternately, you could look at Binder. The ability to do something new every day is nice when you don't really know the established roles of D&D.

Can binder fill the trapfinding/skillmonkey role? I've never seen one in play before. (They do seem really cool though, looking at the handbook)

[subject42]

Can binder fill the trapfinding/skillmonkey role? I've never seen one in play before. (They do seem really cool though, looking at the handbook)

With the online Zceryll vestige, you can handle the trapmonkey role at high levels by infinitely summoning monsters to act as trap detectors. I can't think of any vestiges off the top of my head that grant trapfinding unfortunately.

Binders can usually fill one subset of the skillmonkey role at any given time, but which subset they choose can change day by day. Lots of vestiges give bonuses to specific skills.

[Overshee]

With the online Zceryll vestige, you can handle the trapmonkey role at high levels by infinitely summoning monsters to act as trap detectors. I can't think of any vestiges off the top of my head that grant trapfinding unfortunately.

Binders can usually fill one subset of the skillmonkey role at any given time, but which subset they choose can change day by day. Lots of vestiges give bonuses to specific skills.

Yeah I think the player in question will enjoy doing factotum -> chameleon

[Runestar]

One of my players wants to be a lesser aasimar swordsage, but I'm reluctant to allow the race because it seems overpowered.

How can I fix it so that it's more balanced?

In all fairness, only the wis bonus will be beneficial to you. The cha bonus is pretty much wasted. I say to just allow it as is.

[Godskook]

Lesser Aasimar is only even slightly OP on caster builds, where that +2 caster stat with no penalties is highly attractive. On *ANYTHING* else, you're not really going to care about it, cause you'll just have a mild +1 to a few random rolls here and there.

Sure, its strong, probably among the strongest +0 races out there, but when Human is *STILL* better, and things like Dwarf, Warforged, Spellscale, lesser Tiefling, Kobolds, Goblins, *DEEP BREATH*, strongheart halflings, whisper gnomes, Illumian, Shift, Changling, Water Orc, and Raptoran are all competitively just as useful.

And that's not counting the fact that buyoff makes lesser a bad choice for Aasimars in most games, since the xp river can still be swum. It also significantly adds to the list of high-end race choices which make lesser Aasimar not OP.

[Curmudgeon]

Lesser Aasimar is only a really good optimization fit for Favored Souls, because it boosts both of the class's spellcasting stats. But since most spellcasters only have to worry about one abilty, that's hardly enough to make this happy race-class match overpowered.

I wouldn't worry about it. If you feel the need to fix something, knock the supports out from under metamagic cost reducers. Those things are a much bigger source of DM headaches than an adjustment to a race that makes it comparable to a Dwarf for capabilities.

[Hoboshank]

Suggestions for the slot? I was thinking factotum because I like them. What else could be fun and help party makeup?

Dread Neco. solid T3, fun, and the fluff gets funny

[Zaq]

The only thing that makes me raise an eyebrow at them is that they're pretty much the only LA 0 race that gives a bump to WIS (DW kobolds are a very roundabout way of doing it and take a feat, and buommans have some really severe restrictions on them, including a feat tax if you want to cast anything that isn't psionic). That said, a bump to WIS isn't inherently overpowered, especially on a Swordsage (compared to, say, a Cleric, or even an Ardent). It's a strong race, but I don't think that it'll put your player on a fundamentally different playing field than they would be otherwise, especially if you're in a party with full casters (and this player isn't one of 'em).

It's strong, but it's not THAT strong. Honestly, the energy resistances will probably come up more than anything else, and that's really not an issue.

[marcielle]

Facototum Cunning Knowledge + Guidance of the Avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a)= Lols all around.

[faceroll]

Races that give +casting stats without penalty are overpowered. Give him +2cha and -2con, drop the wisdom bonus. Or drop charisma bonus and give +wis and -2con.

[Serpentine]

I have a homebrew/houserule Planetouched... more customisation template than race variant:

Planetouched
Aasimar, tieflings and other planetouched are custom-made according to the ancestor creature. The following is a guide, rather than hard rules.
• +2 ancestor creature’s best ability, -2 ancestor creature’s worst ability.
• Resistance 5 to one energy the ancestor creature is immune or resistant to.
• +2 to the ancestor creature’s two best skills.
• Darkvision 60ft or low-light vision, if the ancestor creature had it.
• +4 to saves against one supernatural effect the ancestor creature is immune to (e.g. petrification).
• Possibly a penalty to reflect a vulnerability of the ancestor creature.
• 1d4 distinctive physical features.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I have a homebrew/houserule Planetouched... more customisation template than race variant:

Planetouched
Aasimar, tieflings and other planetouched are custom-made according to the ancestor creature. The following is a guide, rather than hard rules.
• +2 ancestor creature’s best ability, -2 ancestor creature’s worst ability.
• Resistance 5 to one energy the ancestor creature is immune or resistant to.
• +2 to the ancestor creature’s two best skills.
• Darkvision 60ft or low-light vision, if the ancestor creature had it.
• +4 to saves against one supernatural effect the ancestor creature is immune to (e.g. petrification).
• Possibly a penalty to reflect a vulnerability of the ancestor creature.
• 1d4 distinctive physical features.

I thought the point of the planetouched was a distant relative being extraplanar (which plane depends on the race in question). So much distant that the specifics don't affect them besides the general good or evil ness. Wotc did this for half-fiend/celestial, but I can't seem to find the article. The planetouched are just like Draconic creatures. They have something back in their bloodline but its too distant for specifics to matter.

[Serpentine]

That may be their original point, but it's not one I like. Why would you look and be the same whether you have pit fiend blood or chain devil blood? I get the idea that individual extraplanar beings can go through a metamorphasis from one type to another, but I dislike the idea of the specific progenitor having absolutely no influence on their descendents.
It also, I think, opens up much more opportunity for background exploration: the story behind being descended from a succubus is going to be very different to descent from a balor.

[deuxhero]

It's not OP at all. Really, a nerf just gives the player reason to be yet another human PC. The lesser template removes anything that warrents LA (no easy PRC qualifications through free martial weapon training, no polycheese)

Outside of horribly MAD classes that need all the help they can get (Diplomacy Monk, Paladin). Only Clerics and Favored Souls use both Wis and Cha, and even then the cleric only gets an extra turning attempt out of the Cha boost (and human can just spend his bonus feat on Extra Turning for FOUR attempts).

Tieflings at least have both of their stats be of use for a lot of classes (Everyone needs Dex for Intitive, reflex and AC, Int replicates humans bonus skill point for most though), like Rogues and Wizards, but it is still inferior to a feat.

Your resistances are so low they aren't worth bothering with. Again, Tiefling gets something out of their high resitance to mundane fire. Remember, the resistances overlap (not stack) with a level 2 spell.

[faceroll]

Really, a nerf just gives the player reason to be yet another human PC.

I can't think of many builds where human isn't superseded by a better race.

[deuxhero]

OK, or Strongheart Halfling...

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I can't think of many builds where human isn't superseded by a better race.


OK, or Strongheart Halfling...

Humans in DND are good because of the free feat, which, depending on the build, can be a must have. Out of core, things can get easier (magic items, locations that give feats), but it also depends on the build.

Certainly if you want to play {Racial Prestige Class}, then you go {Race}, but when such isn't the case, humans are a hard thing to beat because, just by leveling shenanigans, feats can be rare and hard to come by.

[deuxhero]

The joke was Strongheart Halflings also get a bonus feat, but are also small, an advantage for anyone not a weapon user (lower gear weight more than makes up for the lowered capacity).

[Incanur]

Only Clerics and Favored Souls use both Wis and Cha, and even then the cleric only gets an extra turning attempt out of the Cha boost (and human can just spend his bonus feat on Extra Turning for FOUR attempts).

If there were a feat that gave +2 Wis and Cha, I'd take it if I were playing a cleric. :smallsmile: The Cha boost also improves turning checks, skill checks, and various domain abilities.


The joke was Strongheart Halflings also get a bonus feat, but are also small, an advantage for anyone not a weapon user (lower gear weight more than makes up for the lowered capacity).

Yeah, strongheart halflings make excellent wizards.

[hex0]

If there were a feat that gave +2 Wis and Cha, I'd take it if I were playing a cleric. :smallsmile: The Cha boost also improves turning checks, skill checks, and various domain abilities.


You can almost have both by taking Human Paragon.

[Incanur]

You can almost have both by taking Human Paragon.

Thou shalt not lose caster levels. :smalltongue:

[hex0]

Thou shalt not lose caster levels. :smalltongue:

Not even one? :smallfrown: But you get +2 to your casting stat. :smalltongue:

I just mentioned HP for the sake of argument. If I lost one caster level, there are better options for a cleric. Prestige Paladin and Prestige Ranger. :smallbiggrin:

[Incanur]

Lesser aasimar gets +2 to two important stats without losing a caster level. I'm not saying it's necessarily better than human for a cleric build - and depending on what you want to do, earth dwarf of strongheart halfling might be superior to either - but it's competitive.

[faceroll]

Humans in DND are good because of the free feat, which, depending on the build, can be a must have. Out of core, things can get easier (magic items, locations that give feats), but it also depends on the build.

Certainly if you want to play {Racial Prestige Class}, then you go {Race}, but when such isn't the case, humans are a hard thing to beat because, just by leveling shenanigans, feats can be rare and hard to come by.

I play with flaws, so a bonus first level feat is rarely as cool as a spellhoarding loredrake, anthro bat, water orc, gray elf, or uh, loredrake again.

DMM clerics benefit the most from being human, imo.

[herrhauptmann]

Races that give +casting stats without penalty are overpowered. Give him +2cha and -2con, drop the wisdom bonus. Or drop charisma bonus and give +wis and -2con.

But it's not a caster, it's a swordsage. The +cha and wis won't help him all that much.

[faceroll]

But it's not a caster, it's a swordsage. The +cha and wis won't help him all that much.

Agreed. But within the larger system, lesser planetouched are op.

[Andion Isurand]

Yeah, strongheart halflings make excellent wizards.

There are even halfling wizard substitution levels available in Dragon Magazine 337 pg 102... ...good way of getting a spell or two from another class's spell list.

[supernerd]

It is also great for paladins. it lets you not have to dump Int completely.

one of my favorite uses(that can be quite powerful) is the Magic Blooded racial variation(racial variations are in Dragon 306) -2wis, +2cha for a total of +4cha(as well as favored class-sorceror, +2spellcraft and Know:arcana and untrained checks for both), works well for bards, sorcerors, and anything with Cha to AC.

[hex0]

Can Lesser Aasimar become Dragonborn? :smallwink:

[Zale]

I have a homebrew/houserule Planetouched... more customisation template than race variant:

Planetouched
Aasimar, tieflings and other planetouched are custom-made according to the ancestor creature. The following is a guide, rather than hard rules.
• +2 ancestor creature’s best ability, -2 ancestor creature’s worst ability.
• Resistance 5 to one energy the ancestor creature is immune or resistant to.
• +2 to the ancestor creature’s two best skills.
• Darkvision 60ft or low-light vision, if the ancestor creature had it.
• +4 to saves against one supernatural effect the ancestor creature is immune to (e.g. petrification).
• Possibly a penalty to reflect a vulnerability of the ancestor creature.
• 1d4 distinctive physical features.

Oh, that's neat. Simple and capable of covering most things. I like.

[Serpentine]

Thanks! :smallbiggrin:
But uh... I think this thread might've been past its Use By Date <.<

[averagejoe]

The Mod They Call Me: Thread necromancy.