Tier 1 in real life

[lorddrake]

Taking some inspiration on the reply that Gotterdammerung gave on the thread Looking for a "Spell of Quick Childbirth" that goes like this:


Also adventuring with a baby shouldn't be hard or dangerous.

There is lots of options for baby safety.

#1 put him in the same place all wiz/sor put their familiar when its not being useful. Ta-da safe baby.

#2 Tenser's Floating Disk makes a great Stroller.

#3 Unseen servant = Babysitter

#4 Simulacrum= Temporary to long time Parental Supervision

#5 Tasha's hideous laughter = happy baby.

#6 Prestidigitation= clean baby

#7 Any Mordenkainen extra dimensional temporary lodging spell = safe place for baby to be while still being close to mommy.

#8 Create food = infinite Gerber

#9 Animate object= also a good crib

#10 dancing lights= spinny thing that makes babies go YAY.

#11 Creation spells= infinite baby toys

#12 Several castings of Modify memory or Probe Thoughts or the psionic power that does the same thing= Instant perfect childhood no matter how bad you did AND a perfect control over your babies grasp of morality and personal values.

See an adventurer can be a doting mother and still end up with a wonderful child. She just needs money to pay a caster, or a friend who is a caster, or to be a caster herself. Looks like Wizards are Tier 1 mommy's too.



I started thinking... What else can a Tier 1 can do better besides adventuring? Like transportation, cultivation, building... etc...

Any funny/interesting ideas?

[Curious]

Tippyverse.

[lorddrake]

Tippyverse.

What is this?

[Hiro Protagonest]

What is this?

Something that was thought up long ago, when mankind watched black and white TV and hunted dinosaurs.

Mostly it has infinite loops of helpful spells.

[The Glyphstone]

And invincible god-wizards who have Mindraped every living thing on the planet into loyalty to them.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

And invincible god-wizards who have Mindraped every living thing on the planet into loyalty to them.

Which, in turn, has eliminated war and has created Peace On Earth...

Hunger has been eliminated by self-resetting traps of Create Food and Water

Disease has been eliminated by self-resetting traps of Cure Disease

It's a utopian world. We know it is because Big Brother Wizard tells us so.

[gkathellar]

There are no disagreements among the wizards.

There are no Mage Wars.

The world's population has always been several million hundred-thousand thousand.

So say our wizarding masters. All hail!

[zimmerwald1915]

There are no disagreements among the wizards.

There are no Mage Wars.

The world's population has always been several million hundred-thousand thousand.

So say our wizarding masters. All hail!
Anyone who says otherwise is a commie mutant traitor and should be reported to your nearest Friend Wizard.

[gkathellar]

The point being: if wizards existed in real life they would be Time Lords. Not the nice kind of Time Lord, either. The bad kind.

[zimmerwald1915]

The point being: if wizards existed in real life they would be Time Lords. Not the nice kind of Time Lord, either. The bad kind.
There is no bad kind. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9c/Valeyard.jpg) Please report to your nearest Create Food and Water trap. Please activate said trap until you are able to do so no more. Thank you for your service.

[JaronK]

One obvious one would be basic need traps. You'd have public areas where repeating traps summoned food and drink, flavored it (prestidigitation), cured you of disease, cleaned you, made you really happy, and then used spell like Distill Joy to harvest your happiness for further magic item creation. That would be your primary food source.

JaronK

[Doughnut Master]

This gives me a fun idea for a campaign where it's hundreds of years later and the entire population has grown indolent and stupid after so many generations of total satisfaction. It has gotten to the point where the knowledge of how to create and maintain these traps has become lost and now the machinery that keeps this society functioning is starting to break down. Chaos, panic, starvation. Our intrepid heroes must now seek out the knowledge to make everything right again.

[LaughingRogue]

Leonardo da Vinci -- think renaissance man , this is what I always think of anyway.

edit:: with lots of magic

[CTrees]

This gives me a fun idea for a campaign where it's hundreds of years later and the entire population has grown indolent and stupid after so many generations of total satisfaction. It has gotten to the point where the knowledge of how to create and maintain these traps has become lost and now the machinery that keeps this society functioning is starting to break down. Chaos, panic, starvation. Our intrepid heroes must now seek out the knowledge to make everything right again.

Well, The Wizard(s) Who Did It should really have made themselves immortal. More likely is attack from another plane (I'm thinking, a force of slaad, offended by the orderliness of it all) managing to kill the wizards in charge, and generally wreaking havoc. THEN the heroes get to clean up :smallamused:

[lorddrake]

This gives me a fun idea for a campaign where it's hundreds of years later and the entire population has grown indolent and stupid after so many generations of total satisfaction. It has gotten to the point where the knowledge of how to create and maintain these traps has become lost and now the machinery that keeps this society functioning is starting to break down. Chaos, panic, starvation. Our intrepid heroes must now seek out the knowledge to make everything right again.

Maybe that's only unintentional, but... is this idiocracy?

[CTrees]

Maybe that's only unintentional, but... is this idiocracy?

I liked it better when it was the Eloi.

[sreservoir]

This gives me a fun idea for a campaign where it's hundreds of years later and the entire population has grown indolent and stupid after so many generations of total satisfaction. It has gotten to the point where the knowledge of how to create and maintain these traps has become lost and now the machinery that keeps this society functioning is starting to break down. Chaos, panic, starvation. Our intrepid heroes must now seek out the knowledge to make everything right again.

wizards can make themselves nearly immortal quite easily, if they don't mind being evil.

[lorddrake]

wizards can make themselves nearly immortal quite easily, if they don't mind being evil.

I just asked myself... Why would a evil everlasting undead or imortal wizard of all powerfullness... help people by making food and water? Why not slave them in the old fashioned way or (even better) kill them all and control undead (because we know entropy dictates that some good people eventually will be born to try to end the tyranny of the evil opressor blah blah blah)

[Curious]

I just asked myself... Why would a evil everlasting undead or imortal wizard of all powerfullness... help people by making food and water? Why not slave them in the old fashioned way or (even better) kill them all and control undead (because we know entropy dictates that some good people eventually will be born to try to end the tyranny of the evil opressor blah blah blah)

You are clearly guilty of thought-crime for imagining our benevolent leaders would do such things. Please report to your nearest mindrape station for re-conditioning.

[Siosilvar]

I just asked myself... Why would a evil everlasting undead or imortal wizard of all powerfullness... help people by making food and water? Why not slave them in the old fashioned way or (even better) kill them all and control undead (because we know entropy dictates that some good people eventually will be born to try to end the tyranny of the evil opressor blah blah blah)

Lawful Evil will have plenty of good times creating a Brave New World-like country. Why oppress the people when you can make them as happy as they want to be? Make them happy to have you as their leader, not living in fear. Anyone who wants to end your tyranny not only has to deal with you, but everyone around them, as well. How's that for morale - the very people you want to save are against you?

[Toliudar]

This gives me a fun idea for a campaign where it's hundreds of years later and the entire population has grown indolent and stupid after so many generations of total satisfaction. It has gotten to the point where the knowledge of how to create and maintain these traps has become lost and now the machinery that keeps this society functioning is starting to break down. Chaos, panic, starvation. Our intrepid heroes must now seek out the knowledge to make everything right again.

See the Disney movie Wall-E for inspiration.

[lorddrake]

Lawful Evil will have plenty of good times creating a Brave New World-like country. Why oppress the people when you can make them as happy as they want to be? Make them happy to have you as their leader, not living in fear. Anyone who wants to end your tyranny not only has to deal with you, but everyone around them, as well. How's that for morale - the very people you want to save are against you?

Hey! You awakened the lawful evil in me!
I'm going to write some of those things right now, but don't mind me. Just keep going... Tell me more (muawhuahua...)

[Curious]

Hey! You awakened the lawful evil in me!
I'm going to write some of those things right now, but don't mind me. Just keep going... Tell me more (muawhuahua...)

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125679) may be of interest to you

[Bakkan]

This gives me a fun idea for a campaign where it's hundreds of years later and the entire population has grown indolent and stupid after so many generations of total satisfaction. It has gotten to the point where the knowledge of how to create and maintain these traps has become lost and now the machinery that keeps this society functioning is starting to break down. Chaos, panic, starvation. Our intrepid heroes must now seek out the knowledge to make everything right again.

Actually, this is similar to the state of the (fallen) Empire in Asimov's Foundation Trilogy.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Lawful Evil will have plenty of good times creating a Brave New World-like country. Why oppress the people when you can make them as happy as they want to be? Make them happy to have you as their leader, not living in fear. Anyone who wants to end your tyranny not only has to deal with you, but everyone around them, as well. How's that for morale - the very people you want to save are against you?

There's a city in the Crescent Moon Forest (or something like that) in Dark Sun called Gulg. The tyrant sorcerer-queen in that city pretty much rules like that, having gained the trust of her people and then teaching them the primal spirits are evil.

Also, it's the perfect Brave New World setting.
"Is it true? Kalak dead? Slaves freed? Well, we'll find our soon enough!"

[turkishproverb]

Lawful Evil will have plenty of good times creating a Brave New World-like country. Why oppress the people when you can make them as happy as they want to be? Make them happy to have you as their leader, not living in fear. Anyone who wants to end your tyranny not only has to deal with you, but everyone around them, as well. How's that for morale - the very people you want to save are against you?

...

You do realize you just described the United Federation of Planets, right?

[Lateral]

I liked it better when it was the Eloi.

Oh, man, now I want to play an adventure where the PCs are fighting some subterranean enemy that they think are some sort of official monster, but which turn out to be Morlocks. It would be so much fun.

As long as my gaming group is well-read, of course.

[mootoall]

There is no bad kind. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9c/Valeyard.jpg) Please report to your nearest Create Food and Water trap. Please activate said trap until you are able to do so no more. Thank you for your service.

There is no Mind Rape, citizen. Please go back to your fun.

[Doughnut Master]

There are any number of reasons as to why the magic stopped working. Attack from another plane? Sounds good. Maybe all of the wizards are good and don't believe in immortality. Or maybe they tried for it and something bigger on the food chain didn't like it.

Another alternative could be the spread of dead magic zones. Could be like a D&D version of the dustbowl and the Grapes of Wrath. Powerful magic may still work, but low level stuff just starts fizzling out. Kinda makes character progression a race against time.

[Weezer]

...

You do realize you just described the United Federation of Planets, right?

The line between utopia and distopia a very thin one. Especially in the Federation, there are a lot of signs that the system isn't quite as rosy as the show wants to present it as.

[turkishproverb]

The line between utopia and distopia a very thin one. Especially in the Federation, there are a lot of signs that the system isn't quite as rosy as the show wants to present it as.

ooohohioooo....

hehe.

Anyway, true, though most of those "hints" came from writer revolt (the stuff in TNG) or growing the beard (like DS9). The ones in TOS were mostly because Roddenberry wasn't as good as he thought he was on concept work.

[Jack_Simth]

I just asked myself... Why would a evil everlasting undead or imortal wizard of all powerfullness... help people by making food and water? Why not slave them in the old fashioned way or (even better) kill them all and control undead (because we know entropy dictates that some good people eventually will be born to try to end the tyranny of the evil opressor blah blah blah)
A couple of things...

1) The Tippyverse, itself, does not necessitate an evil overlord. It's just most commonly envisioned that way.
2) An evil overlord could want to take care of his subjects for the same reason a farmer takes care of the chickens - sure, he may very well eat a few periodically... but if they're kept happy, healthy, and fed, he gets a better meal out of them.

[Siosilvar]

...

You do realize you just described the United Federation of Planets, right?

Not quite.

Community. Identity. Stability.

EDIT: For one, I don't recall references to hypnopaedia or sleep-learning (or brain-washing, aside from a few interrogation methods and the Borg) in Star Trek. Nor are there replicators in Brave New World, everything instead being mass-produced only to be consumed. It is pretty close, though.

[WalkingTarget]

A couple of things...

1) The Tippyverse, itself, does not necessitate an evil overlord. It's just most commonly envisioned that way.
2) An evil overlord could want to take care of his subjects for the same reason a farmer takes care of the chickens - sure, he may very well eat a few periodically... but if they're kept happy, healthy, and fed, he gets a better meal out of them.

Right. As I recall, Tippy (All hail the Emperor!) envisioned it as a setting that took D&D's magic system to a logical conclusion while still retaining a world that caters to all play-levels.

Because of permanencied teleportation circles to link cities, there is little need for any kind of road maintenance or any other management of non-city life (or at least that part of it outside of the area directly around the city). The wilderness outside of the cities is where you can go adventuring.

Edit - finally tracked down a post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5396845&postcount=24) where Tippy talked about things all at once rather than just individual posts on small parts of the idea.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I started thinking... What else can a Tier 1 can do better besides adventuring? Like transportation, cultivation, building... etc...

Well, not Tier 1 proper but I've been working on a Gestalt build for that thought experiment about the D&D rules suddenly applying in real life-- could someone PM me the link, please?-- that's pretty much a very aggressive Tier 2 with a focus on utility over combat.

Leaving aside the Tippyverse:

The 0th level spell stabilize can be cast at-will by anyone who knows it-- which is potentially any 1st level Cleric, Oracle, Druid, Inquisitor, or Witch-- and immediately stops a person who is mortally wounded from dying. If they're actually suffering from a bleed condition, it's unclear whether stabilize would work or if you needed to actually heal hit point damage.

If it's the latter, a 1st level Witch can cast cure light wounds-- once per recipient per day-- as a hex as many times a day as she feels like. Likewise, a 1st level Dragon Shaman (or 3rd level character with the Draconic Aura feat) can emit a Vigor aura for effectively unlimited triage healing.

Likewise, the nastiest diseases in the core rules have save DCs in the high teens. Unless there's a real-world disease with a save DC of 23 or higher-- and I seriously doubt anything we have on Earth is worse than Devil Fever or Mummy Rot-- anyone capable of casting remove disease is going to be able to cure any non-magical disease on a natural 20. A 3rd level Healer with a 12 Wisdom can cast it 21 times a week.

Cure light wounds, neutralize poison, remove disease and restoration are capable of repairing almost any non-magical damage the human body and mind are capable of sustaining. Regenerate is a few levels away, and repairing genetic defects probably calls more for transmutation than conjuration (healing) but that's what the spell research rules are for.

11th level is pretty much the ground floor for personal immortality. That's when lichdom and contingent last breath both become available.

A 10th level Bard or Loremaster is effectively an expert in every field, before accounting for skill points or Intelligence bonus. A little bit of investment can push this into borderline omniscience-- and if something is beyond the realm of human knowledge, you can try contact other plane or commune. Write books.

Teleport and greater teleport are the obvious go-to spells for transportation, since overland flight is slower than a bicycle, but they're also the perfect alibi spells. One quick teleport before or after a crime-- or two during-- establishes that you were a thousand miles or more away when the crime occurred. ATMs have security cameras, so a one-time cash withdrawal from your debit card leaves two forms of evidence.

If you want serious transportation, the spells you want are create demiplane tree. Eat the cost of making one lesser create demiplane permanent and then use greater create demiplane to create and destroy free gates between your demiplane and wherever you want on Earth.

If you're flush with cash, you can cast several permanent greater create demiplane spells, buy a couple of different warehouses around the globe-- through front companies-- and set up a gate network between them. Your employees at each warehouse take local delivery of goods and transfer them through the local gate into your demiplane, where employees from another warehouse will pick them up and transfer them into their local warehouse. If you set everything up properly, between the demiplane itself and staggered work shifts, nobody even knows they're leaving Earth.

You can also use create demiplane to generate electricity. Lots of electricity. Create a demiplane that is a single 10-foot cube high with both a floor and a ceiling, self-contained along the x and y axes, with no gravity, double time, and bright light. Perfect solar power conditions 200% of the time, no moving parts or weathering, and you're getting 200 square feet out of each 10 foot cube.

There's probably all sorts of peachy tricks in the other spell lists, but I've really only been looking at Bard, Sorcerer, and Witch.

[The Glyphstone]

Where's Create Demiplane from? I'm only familiar with Genesis.

[Eric Tolle]

An intelligent Lawful Evil wizard would realize that citizenry that have their basic needs met can spend their time breathing items with the fabrication traps, meaning they can be taxed for far more money than subsistance farmers. More wealth for the people means more wealth for the Dark Lord. Also, contented people are less likely to support the occasional meddling adventurers.

It's kind of like the Evil Overlord list-follow all the suggestions, and it's debatable how evil the overlord is.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I would like to point out for any self-resetting traps that create things will eventually flood the world with whatever its creating. Infinitly creating more matter will only flood the world with it.

[CTrees]

Where's Create Demiplane from? I'm only familiar with Genesis.

Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-demiplane)

[sreservoir]

Where's Create Demiplane from? I'm only familiar with Genesis.

viktyr seems to be using pathfinder throughout.

[The Glyphstone]

Ah, right. I should have checked there first.

[Fisticuffs]

See the Disney movie Wall-E for inspiration.

Pixar*

I fixed that for you.

[Lateral]

Pixar*

I fixed that for you.


You do realize that you're both right, don't you?

[Fisticuffs]

You do realize that you're both right, don't you?

Aside from Disney's name on it(and some merchandising) Disney had nothing to do with the movie.

[Anderlith]

I would like to point out for any self-resetting traps that create things will eventually flood the world with whatever its creating. Infinitly creating more matter will only flood the world with it.

Sphere of Annihilation Dumpsites

[Mikeavelli]

I would like to point out for any self-resetting traps that create things will eventually flood the world with whatever its creating. Infinitly creating more matter will only flood the world with it.

That's where Gates to the Elemental Plane of Fire come in handy.

[Chilingsworth]

Sphere of Annihilation Dumpsites

Aren't those alittle hard to control?

[Tavar]

I would like to point out for any self-resetting traps that create things will eventually flood the world with whatever its creating. Infinitly creating more matter will only flood the world with it.

This assumes that the trap is constantly active and triggering. Which isn't necessary the case. It's pretty easy to make a trigger for them, after all.

[Anderlith]

Aren't those alittle hard to control?

No, Master Wizard makes them safe. Master Wizard makes everything safe. Master Wizard was smart to have this idea. Master Wizard loves us.

[MesiDoomstalker]

This assumes that the trap is constantly active and triggering. Which isn't necessary the case. It's pretty easy to make a trigger for them, after all.

Ok so it won't be flooded with food. But your still making more matter endlessly (if controlled). Eventually somehting will build up too much.


Sphere of Annihilation Dumpsites


That's where Gates to the Elemental Plane of Fire come in handy.

But those of course will solve the issue nicely.

[Gotterdammerung]

Vegas would be 10 times better.

Spells to skew the odds in your favor. Spells to remove hangovers. Hookers + magic is super win- remove disease, pleasure spells from BoEF, polymorph, enlarge person, Animate object, grease, haste , fly, simalucrum, spells that link your senses with other people. Also, nondetection could probably be altered to make camera's not capture your image, since they are basically high tech scrying. so no blackmailing later.

And also potions of glibness for when you explain to the wife where you have been the last few days.

[NNescio]

Vegas would be 10 times better.

Spells to skew the odds in your favor. Spells to remove hangovers. Hookers + magic is super win- remove disease, pleasure spells from BoEF, polymorph, enlarge person, Animate object, grease, haste , fly, simalucrum, spells that link your senses with other people. Also, nondetection could probably be altered to make camera's not capture your image, since they are basically high tech scrying. so no blackmailing later.

And also potions of glibness for when you explain to the wife where you have been the last few days.

Vegas would go bankrupt. Or use magic for security and tilting the odds back in their favour themselves, which would bring you back to square one.

[Weezer]

I actually don't think Vegas would change that much, they put enough effort in stopping both skill based and technological cheating that it's reasonable to assume they would do much the same thing. Perhaps they'd just place a blanket antimagic field over the game floor.

[Gotterdammerung]

Vegas would go bankrupt. Or use magic for security and tilting the odds back in their favour themselves, which would bring you back to square one.

A properly built wizard could easily bypass their security. A shadow magic user could for them to make a caster lvl check to see through her tricks with divinations. Nondetection can protect some as well. Mind blank can help some.

And some of the "cheating" could be done outside the casino. For instance, If I decide to play black jack tonight? Weal or Woe? Answer: woe

Ok, If i decide to play roulette tonight? Weal or Woe? Answer: Weal.

Roulette it is :smallsmile:


With dominate person, telepathic links, and shared sensory input from spells, you could completely stop them from any attempts to ban you.

For every security change they make, you could easily come up with a new loophole.

You could even have your familiar magic jar the dealer and really mop up.

[The Glyphstone]

Aside from Disney's name on it(and some merchandising) Disney had nothing to do with the movie.

But Pixar is still a subsidiary company of Disney, so as mentioned, it's technically a Disney film as much as it is a Pixar film.



With dominate person, telepathic links, and shared sensory input from spells, you could completely stop them from any attempts to ban you.

For every security change they make, you could easily come up with a new loophole.

You could even have your familiar magic jar the dealer and really mop up.

Mgic Circle Against Evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicCircleAgainstEvil.htm) says Hi. Note that the 'protection against Mental Control' aspects of Prot.Evil function regardless of any alignments involved, so having the entire casino floor covered by adjacent Permanencies Magic Circles would shut down that plan fast.

[Coidzor]

With dominate person, telepathic links, and shared sensory input from spells, you could completely stop them from any attempts to ban you.

For every security change they make, you could easily come up with a new loophole.

You could even have your familiar magic jar the dealer and really mop up.

If you're throwing around dominate persons, you're better off panhandling from the people that they let win big rather than a target that they'd be watching closely or dipping into violent crime.

Or, hitting a bigger score than winning at gambling.

[Doughnut Master]

Is magic a renewable resource?

[Coidzor]

Is magic a renewable resource?

Pretty much, yeah. XP is a renewable resource too. Then again, Distilled Joy is more renewable and more easily harvested en masse than XP, IIRC.

[Doughnut Master]

How does it get renewed?

From what I read, it seems that magic exists in everything and is extracted from the world. Different spells let you extract and shape it in different ways.

While XP doesn't exist in the game itself (being a tool for the metagame), magic does. It would make sense that this constant draining, creating, fabricating, healing, and teleporting would take it's toll eventually.

[Curious]

How does it get renewed?


You take war criminals, stick them in arena, and make them fight. After they've leveled up, you drain their xp. Simple.

[MesiDoomstalker]

How does it get renewed?

From what I read, it seems that magic exists in everything and is extracted from the world. Different spells let you extract and shape it in different ways.

While XP doesn't exist in the game itself (being a tool for the metagame), magic does. It would make sense that this constant draining, creating, fabricating, healing, and teleporting would take it's toll eventually.

Magic is entropy and enthalpy. It creates and destorys. It orders the universe and disorders it. Casting a teleport spell will scramble your atoms, send them to your target location, then reassemble them. Equal and opposite. There is no resource that your taking from or adding too. But if you must see it as a pool, every time a spell is cast, the caster dips into the pool, works it around to the desired effect. The working does stuff to the enviroment (depending on the spell) then the caster simply desposits it back into the pool. Magic it self was not changed. It is a means to an end, not the end itself.

[Anderlith]

How does it get renewed?

From what I read, it seems that magic exists in everything and is extracted from the world. Different spells let you extract and shape it in different ways.

While XP doesn't exist in the game itself (being a tool for the metagame), magic does. It would make sense that this constant draining, creating, fabricating, healing, and teleporting would take it's toll eventually.

Play Dark Sun Campaign Setting

[Hiro Protagonest]

Play Dark Sun Campaign Setting

Veiled Alliance.

[Yahzi]

Zone of truth.

Why does everyone forget this one? It would do more to affect ordinary people's lives than any other magic. Fatal diseases only affect a few of us, but crime and political campaigns affect all of us. Given how many people effectively die of old age these days, ZoT might even have a bigger impact than Resurrection.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Why does everyone forget this one?

Because Bob the level 1 commoner with 10 wisdom and no Iron Will can tell lies in it 35% of the time when it's cast by an elite array cleric.

[Coidzor]

So if we have a known failure rate, how many times would it need to be used beyond a reasonable doubt?

[Chilingsworth]

So if we have a known failure rate, how many times would it need to be used beyond a reasonable doubt?

Enough so that even with the minimum success rate (5%,) the chances of it failing are functionally zero. Even then it might not be usuable in a courtroom, for instance.

Wait, instead (or better yet, in addition) why not use discern lies: as a targeted spell, the caster knows if the target made its save, barring some specific effect that interfers with this.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Or, hitting a bigger score than winning at gambling.

Honestly, legitimate enterprise with mid-level magic is much much more lucrative than almost any criminal enterprise I can think of. I was actually going to post that there are way better ways to make money than gambling using divination spells-- but then I realized something.

Every two-digit integer can be rendered into a single word in English. At twelfth level, contact other plane allows you to ask six questions with between sixty and ninety percent accuracy. The error rate means you won't hit the jackpot consistently-- but most lotteries pay lesser prizes on fewer matches.

If you're playing PowerBall or MegaMillions in the US, you can buy a ticket to play 39 or 46 numbers-- using the same five numbers from your divination and then simply picking every possible result for the PowerBall/MegaBall. If you get at least three white balls correct every drawing, you're turning a 900% profit on a single 5th level spell slot.

And unlike throwing Enchantment around in a casino, using Divination to pick lottery numbers isn't illegal. It isn't even cheating. And if the lottery officials caught you, they wouldn't break your kneecaps-- they'd use you in their advertising.

You see, you could win the lottery jackpot twice a week every week and they still make their money. One news story about a guy who keeps winning Powerball-- any prize, not just the jackpot-- over and over again is going to make them millions of dollars in new sales. And when you're giving the lottery a break to let the jackpot build back up a little, you can use contact other plane to guide your investment strategies. Stock symbols are single words, too.

Just make sure to keep a couple of potions of lesser restoration on hand for when you miss the Intelligence check.

[gkathellar]

I would like to point out for any self-resetting traps that create things will eventually flood the world with whatever its creating. Infinitly creating more matter will only flood the world with it.

So, too much Create Food would result in a Crapsack World? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrapsackWorld)

[mootoall]

So, too much Create Food would result in a Crapsack World? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrapsackWorld)

A pun and a link to TV Tropes? Sir, you're stretching your luck :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

I believe they made a movie about it, even. I think it was Dreamworks or something.

[herrhauptmann]

Anyone who wants to end your tyranny not only has to deal with you, but everyone around them, as well. How's that for morale - the very people you want to save are against you?
I'd swear that's in the evil overlord list somewhere.

A properly built wizard could easily bypass their security. A shadow magic user could for them to make a caster lvl check to see through her tricks with divinations. Nondetection can protect some as well. Mind blank can help some.

And some of the "cheating" could be done outside the casino. For instance, If I decide to play black jack tonight? Weal or Woe? Answer: woe

Ok, If i decide to play roulette tonight? Weal or Woe? Answer: Weal.

Roulette it is :smallsmile:

But 'weal' could mean that you come out ahead by 10 gold. Or woe could mean "You don't triple your wealth, or make enough to get out of debt."

Besides, people really go to the casinos to have fun losing. They might enjoy a good night gambling, but it's the good night followed by a bad loss that they really remember. It's an addiction doncherknow?
Also, why would a properly built wizard waste his time in the casinos? He could instead get started just generating his own wealth like all the other wizards are doing.

Mercedes Lackey and James Mallory made the Obsidian Trilogy, in which the first city shown (and primary human city) is quite a bit of Tippyverse. But it's far from Utopian for anyone but the wizards.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Outstretched_Shadow

[Curious]

But 'weal' could mean that you come out ahead by 10 gold. Or woe could mean "You don't triple your wealth, or make enough to get out of debt."



No, I'm fairly certain that no matter how you word it, making 10 gold is good, and losing any gold is bad. Nice try though. :smallwink:

[herrhauptmann]

No, I'm fairly certain that no matter how you word it, making 10 gold is good, and losing any gold is bad. Nice try though. :smallwink:
It's a perfectly valid point. Sometimes you just need to make X amount. Anything less is a disaster. Perhaps you owe money to the mob or have a lot of loans that are about to come due.

Like someone who spent 10+ years in university without really paying off their loans while interest accrued. While they've just graduated and are now stuck making fries on minimum wage that isn't enough to cover their monthly interest, let alone interest and living expenses.:smalleek: Yes I've seen it, so glad it wasn't me.

[Curious]

It's a perfectly valid point. Sometimes you just need to make X amount. Anything less is a disaster. Perhaps you owe money to the mob or have a lot of loans that are about to come due.

Like someone who spent 10+ years in university without really paying off their loans while interest accrued. While they've just graduated and are now stuck making fries on minimum wage that isn't enough to cover their monthly interest, let alone interest and living expenses.:smalleek: Yes I've seen it, so glad it wasn't me.

I'm fairly certain that if I were a magic-user of sufficient level to be asking questions of lesser deities, the last of my worries would be paying off student loan fees.

[Weezer]

I'm fairly certain that if I were a magic-user of sufficient level to be asking questions of lesser deities, the last of my worries would be paying off student loan fees.

But you would be worrying about paying off your debt to the Gnome Mafia. Those little buggers are nasty.

[herrhauptmann]

I'm fairly certain that if I were a magic-user of sufficient level to be asking questions of lesser deities, the last of my worries would be paying off student loan fees.

It was an example of when/why you need X money and Z (where Z<X) is 'woe.'
If you're that high level of a wizard (even if you're not a tippy wizard), you won't really need to be sitting in the casinos making money anyway.

[Curious]

But you would be worrying about paying off your debt to the Gnome Mafia. Those little buggers are nasty.

Again, if I were indebted to the gnome mafia, I would certainly be doing literally anything else but gambling. Like creating lots of walls of iron. :smallamused:

[Coidzor]

But you would be worrying about paying off your debt to the Gnome Mafia. Those little buggers are nasty.

That's why you fund the Kobold Liberation Front to distract them by attacking the gnomish population directly so that you don't have to worry about the gnomish mafia because there'd be no more gnomes.

[Gotterdammerung]

The point of the statement was a FUN night in vegas. It was NOT "the easiest most effecient way to get rich with magic."

Magic would make vegas more fun. The point was you could cast some luck spells and some divination spells and head out and have a winning night at a casino, which is loads of fun. Then grab a hooker and have a magically enhanced fun time with her. Then head home and use glibness to bluff your wife into thinking you have been at a convention for the last few days.

I know there are better ways to make money efficiently with magic. But the point was just that a night in vegas would be more fun WITH magic.

[Curious]

The point of the statement was a FUN night in vegas. It was NOT "the easiest most effecient way to get rich with magic."

Magic would make vegas more fun. The point was you could cast some luck spells and some divination spells and head out and have a winning night at a casino, which is loads of fun. Then grab a hooker and have a magically enhanced fun time with her. Then head home and use glibness to bluff your wife into thinking you have been at a convention for the last few days.

I know there are better ways to make money efficiently with magic. But the point was just that a night in vegas would be more fun WITH magic.

Assuming nobody else has magic, right?

[Gotterdammerung]

Assuming nobody else has magic, right?

Assuming the wife doesn't use magic, yes.

I don't care if the casino uses magic to defend. There are plenty of ways around magical defenses. Even if they build the darn thing inside a magic dead zone, i can still use divinations to find the best casino for me to play at and the best game for me to play while i am there. And can also find out if it will be good or bad. That is already a huge advantage, and definitely enough of a boost to have a fun winning night of gambling.

[The Glyphstone]

Which, really, I doubt the casinos will care about all that much. Card-counting is illegal, but unless you're winning enough and obviously enough to get caught at it, you can still make a profit. If you're not disrupting their profit margins, they're not going to really be bothered...and if you are, the existence of all those magical defenses you're poo-pooing is pretty solid evidence that they have a high-level wizard on staff as well, and then it just settles down to the traditional wizard vs. wizard duel that's been done a billion threads through.

(Though in a world with magically warded casinos, I can totally imagine a custom researched spell that acts sorta like a Forbiddance for Divinations, making the results of any actions taken within the boundaries of the spell come up as 'hazy/unclear'.)

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I've been looking at what all you can do with Craft Construct. I'm starting to think it might be the best damn feat in the game.

For 500 gp, you can buy a hippogriff. It's a very nice flying mount, with a speed of 100 feet-- or about 10 miles an hour at a "walk". It can fly at this speed for eight hours a day without taking damage, and requires about two pounds of meat a day to sustain it. Presumably it also requires some degree of care and attention from its rider, but I don't think my experience with horses would translate very well in this case.

If you're 8th level and have the Craft Construct feat you can build a clockwork hippogriff for 3200 gp. It has the same 100 feet flight speed as its living counterpart, but it can "run" at x4 speed indefinitely. Instead of feeding it and brushing it and whatever else you have to do to a hippogriff, you have to wind a special key for six seconds every four hours. For 267 gp more, you can build a clockwork goblin to do this for you; it isn't very smart, but it's smart enough to fly your magic robot horse and read a map.

Probably not as ground-breaking as some of the shenanigans that a higher level T1 can get up to. Forty miles an hour isn't much compared to airplanes or even automobiles. On the other hand, it doesn't require fuel, maintenance, insurance or even so much as a license or a registered flight plan.

Of course, like all good things, you can get more out of this if you're higher level and willing to spend more money.

Advance the hippogriff to 5 HD and apply the Advanced template. I don't have a firm grip on how CR works in Pathfinder, but this should increase the clockwork hippogriff's CR to either 6 or 7, or between 4,800 and 5,600 gp. This allows you to add 1 to Strength and take the Run feat. Now you can fly at 50 miles per hour and carry almost 800 pounds of stuff.

More? Dragons cost less than twice as much, but are worth substantially more than twice as much:

The cheapest dragon of at least Large size is the young green, with a CR of 10 and a cost of 8,000 gp. The advanced template adds +1 CR and 800 gp to the cost for a +4 to all ability scores. Per application. They stack.
They can fly up to 100 mph while carrying over a ton when first created. Opposable thumbs allow them to wind themselves and carry cargo more effectively than hippogriffs.
An advanced clockwork dragon is at least as smart-- Int, Wis and Cha-- as the average human and can easily be as smart or smarter than human geniuses for little additional expense.
Clockwork dragons gain XP normally and advance by class level rather than by age category, effectively upgrading themselves for free. They are fully autonomous and fanatically loyal. Unlike cohorts, they are not limited by your class level or Leadership score.
As soon as a clockwork dragon gains the ability to cast 2nd level spells, they can learn make whole and be completely self-repairing.
Clockwork dragons are capable of sacrificing spell slots and spells known to learn Draconic Auras.
Most dragons have spell-like abilities by the time they grow to Large size. Most of these are focused on combat, but some of the dragons have surprising utility. My favorite is the juvenile bronze's ability to cast create food and water at-will.

You know, I started this post with the idea that Craft Construct would allow a Tier 1 to automate a lot of tasks and replace a lot of modern technology. I mean, the example I chose was using a clockwork hippogriff as a replacement for an ultralight autogyro. I didn't even think about the dragon thing until I tried looking up the creatures with the best ratio of flight speed to CR. I've been trying to avoid Tippyverse stuff.

I'm trying to think of other really useful construct tricks, but I think I'm spent for now.

edit: Astral Deva plus Ghaele. That's a 13th level remove disease and 1d8+5 cure light wounds at will, with mind control to boot. Just need to find something that can greater teleport other creatures.

[Hiro Protagonest]

advanced clockwork dragon
[...]
Clockwork dragons
[...]
clockwork dragon
[...]
Clockwork dragons

http://s3images.coroflot.com/user_files/individual_files/37054_Z6Usoh71VHQ4dNxGv6RALj_Hs.jpg
:cool:

[PetterTomBos]

Magic is entropy and enthalpy. It creates and destorys. It orders the universe and disorders it. Casting a teleport spell will scramble your atoms, send them to your target location, then reassemble them. Equal and opposite. There is no resource that your taking from or adding too. But if you must see it as a pool, every time a spell is cast, the caster dips into the pool, works it around to the desired effect. The working does stuff to the enviroment (depending on the spell) then the caster simply desposits it back into the pool. Magic it self was not changed. It is a means to an end, not the end itself.

Hmm, this really got me thinking:

What if Magic is a pool of a quality, let's call it Nonalphy, that is a "free pass" to "break" the laws of physics. As nonalpy would be a property of the world, physics would remain unbroken. Let's assume Nonalphy is a pool situated in a place we cannot reach by any/most physical means. Thus most people can't get it, and on earth nobody can!

If you managed to get some tho... Magic-users somehow generate nonalphy in their beings! Preparing spells they fill their minds/preferred bodypart with a carefully calculated amount, just right to tweak the pool in their favor. The amounts of nonalphy we humans can master is the smallest amounts there is, they are subject to quantum mechanics! Thus can we only have discrete amounts (labelled 0-9 as a matter of fact) on our persons.

When a spell is fired off, what the person is doing is to direct the pool to "break" the laws of physics. Magic missile only lends nonalpy for it's duration, when the duration is over, the impulse and mass it created disappears, and the laws of physics keep going.

(Yes I know this would mess up things like the concervation of distinctions and stuff, but hey)

[MesiDoomstalker]

Hmm, this really got me thinking:

What if Magic is a pool of a quality, let's call it Nonalphy, that is a "free pass" to "break" the laws of physics. As nonalpy would be a property of the world, physics would remain unbroken. Let's assume Nonalphy is a pool situated in a place we cannot reach by any/most physical means. Thus most people can't get it, and on earth nobody can!

If you managed to get some tho... Magic-users somehow generate nonalphy in their beings! Preparing spells they fill their minds/preferred bodypart with a carefully calculated amount, just right to tweak the pool in their favor. The amounts of nonalphy we humans can master is the smallest amounts there is, they are subject to quantum mechanics! Thus can we only have discrete amounts (labelled 0-9 as a matter of fact) on our persons.

When a spell is fired off, what the person is doing is to direct the pool to "break" the laws of physics. Magic missile only lends nonalpy for it's duration, when the duration is over, the impulse and mass it created disappears, and the laws of physics keep going.

(Yes I know this would mess up things like the concervation of distinctions and stuff, but hey)

I always liked the idea that "magic" is all that science can't explain. "Magic" can be explained with science to a certain point at which point, science can't explain things anymore. Thats where "magic" comes in. Lets look at a Fireball spell.

Ok, casting a Fireball spell. Simply put you are converting energy of the Weave (or whatever the pool of magic energy is) to pure thermal energy all at a point of singularity all at once. We get explosive decompression from super-heated gas molecules. After 20 ft, the explosive force and heat disspation is too spread out to cause noticable damage (though you would still feel the heat and rushing air). The only thing science can't explain is where the thermal energy comes from. Using PetterTomBos words, nonthalpy.

[gkathellar]

I always liked the idea that "magic" is all that science can't explain. "Magic" can be explained with science to a certain point at which point, science can't explain things anymore. Thats where "magic" comes in. Lets look at a Fireball spell.

Ok, casting a Fireball spell. Simply put you are converting energy of the Weave (or whatever the pool of magic energy is) to pure thermal energy all at a point of singularity all at once. We get explosive decompression from super-heated gas molecules. After 20 ft, the explosive force and heat disspation is too spread out to cause noticable damage (though you would still feel the heat and rushing air). The only thing science can't explain is where the thermal energy comes from. Using PetterTomBos words, nonthalpy.

[frothing rage]If you have a recognizable, quantifiable force that behaves in a consistent fashion when particular environmental factors are applied to it, then you've already explained what it does with science. Science is not about microscopes it is about approaching the world with the idea that it behaves consistently and can be understood.[/irrational fury]

[MesiDoomstalker]

[frothing rage]If you have a recognizable, quantifiable force that behaves in a consistent fashion when particular environmental factors are applied to it, then you've already explained what it does with science. Science is not about microscopes it is about approaching the world with the idea that it behaves consistently and can be understood.[/irrational fury]

I was talking meta. In-game, magic is science for all definitions of the word. From our perspecitve its not.

[Coidzor]

I've been looking at what all you can do with Craft Construct. I'm starting to think it might be the best damn feat in the game.

For 500 gp, you can buy a hippogriff. It's a very nice flying mount, with a speed of 100 feet-- or about 10 miles an hour at a "walk". It can fly at this speed for eight hours a day without taking damage, and requires about two pounds of meat a day to sustain it. Presumably it also requires some degree of care and attention from its rider, but I don't think my experience with horses would translate very well in this case.

Clockwork? Where's that from?

[sreservoir]

Clockwork? Where's that from?

pf, advanced bestiary.

[Qwertystop]

In 3.5, use Effigy (Complete Arcane). Make robo-whatevers.

[The Glyphstone]

Clockwork creatures are -4 Int though, while Effigy Creatures are a flat Mindless Int -. So you can't do as much with Effigies as you can with Clockworks, though they're the closest substitute without Awaken Construct.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Clockwork? Where's that from?


pf, advanced bestiary.

Yeah. I found it on the PFSRD site and assumed it was official. The error was called to my attention, but I don't think the rules are altogether broken if the caster level requirements are strictly enforced.


Clockwork creatures are -4 Int though, while Effigy Creatures are a flat Mindless Int -. So you can't do as much with Effigies as you can with Clockworks, though they're the closest substitute without Awaken Construct.

Not to mention you can simply cancel out the clockwork penalties by spending an extra 800 gp for the Advanced template. Technically you can do this multiple times, but by that point even I'm starting to feel a little queasy.

[Yahzi]

Enough so that even with the minimum success rate (5%,) the chances of it failing are functionally zero. Even then it might not be usuable in a courtroom, for instance.
Do you think putting your hand up and swearing to "tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" would count as voluntarily failing your save? :smallbiggrin:

In any case, you could lower people's WIS with a curse, and use Commune to review all cases and find out which ones had contaminated testimony.

[Coidzor]

Well, that's nifty. Kind of interesting that they'd include rules for advancing a minion-creature with levels without some kind of cohort-esque reduction of the XP they get or other segregation from counting towards the party's APL and eating into their XP rewards (or did PF alter things so that one is not directly competing with the rest of the group for an X-sized share of Y XP?), I must admit.

[lorddrake]

Going for the silly it just came to me that you could use purify food (I guess that's the name) to bring food to a ok-you-can-eat-it level. So you could make like pushing daisies and have a whole stash of rotten food (exemple: strawberries) and still be able to make some nice pies!

But since you can make food traps... whatever...:smallannoyed: