Elven Rogue build/prestige help

[foxflare27]

To say the least, I am EXTREMELY new to the whole D&D thing, and thus have very little idea of what I am doing or what is out there and how to find it. I am playing an Elven Rogue, and I need help/ideas/names of good ways to build the character (what feats, etc.) and what good prestige classes there are in homebrew. Your help is greatly appreciated
Sincerely
-Noob

[Curmudgeon]

Let's start with asking what type of Elf you're playing. Is it the standard Player's Handbook race? That's not a bad choice at all; at low levels you'll benefit from not only the DEX bonus but also the low-light vision and only 4 hour trance requirement making you a very good night watch for your party. The longbow proficiency will make your ranged attacks better, too. However, you can benefit from a wider selection of Elf subraces. There's an excellent Master Player Race List (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19546874/Master_Player_Race_List_Version_20?num=10&pg=1); personally, I like the Silvanesti (from Dragonlance Campaign Setting) for its INT bonus, which is helpful for a skillful character.

Feats are very precious for a Rogue, so analyze each one rigorously before making your choices. Never take a feat when you can buy one, for instance; you've got the class skills to acquire gp much more easily than other PCs, so do so. I've assembled a list of magic items granting feats (http://home.comcast.net/~ftm3/ASMoNM/feats.html) that might be helpful.

Almost no feats in the Player's Handbook are worthwhile for a Rogue. Some feats that I do recommend are the following:

Craven (Champions of Ruin, page 17): increase your sneak attack damage; level 3/6. Craven is the single most important feat for any combat Rogue.
Education (Eberron Campaign Setting, page 52): make all Knowledges class skills for all your classes; level 1
Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion, pages 60-61): gain bonuses to attack and damage based on the 6 Knowledge skills related to D&D creature types
Snap Kick (Tome of Battle, page 32): get an extra unarmed attack whenever you make one or more melee attacks; level 9. Buy the Improved Unarmed Strike prerequisite for only 1,310 gp.
Darkstalker (Lords of Madness, page 179): Hide even against enemies with blindsight, tremorsense, & c.
Savvy Rogue (Complete Scoundrel, page 80): boost all Rogue special abilities; level 12

A couple of Alternative Class Features (ACFs) are worth pointing out for you:

Lightbringer Rogue Penetrating Strike (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, page 208): trade trap sense @ Rogue 3 for the ability to deal sneak attack with ½ normal dice to those normally immune to sneak attack, when you flank them
Uncanny Bravery (Dragon Magic, page 14) swaps improved uncanny dodge @ Rogue 8 for immunity to dragons' Frightful Presence and +4 to saving throws against other fear effects; this helps out with Craven

Some tactical notes:

Walk around with your composite longbow ready to fire. With maximum Spot ranks you'll usually get to act on surprise rounds. You get to add sneak attack damage against flat-footed enemies within 30'.
In the first regular round of combat make a full ranged attack with your longbow against enemies within 30' who haven't yet acted, because you get to add sneak attack damage every time. Doing anything else (like moving to close for melee) would be throwing away guaranteed sneak attack opportunities.
Your melee weapon should be a rapier, with a keen enhancement when you can afford it. Keen is the only non-numerical enhancement worth taking, because the first rule of sneak attack is that if you don't hit, your sneak attack damage is zero. Sneak attack, especially with Craven, is the primary way for you to be effective in combat. A keen rapier has a critical threat range of 15-20, and Craven damage (since it's not from dice) is multiplied on a critical hit. So is Knowledge Devotion bonus damage.

Build notes:

As noted above, feats are precious to a Rogue. Check with your DM to see if you can take 2 flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) to qualify for 2 more feats at level 1. Acceptable flaws for a Rogue include Frail (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm#frail) and Vulnerable (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm#vulnerable); never even consider Inattentive (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm#inattentive) or Shaky (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm#shaky).
Make INT your highest ability. Your starting skill points include (INT mod) x4 at first level, and this will increase your overall effectiveness.
DEX is next at character creation, but the first (and only) choice for your ability increases every 4 levels. (Make an exception for odd starting scores in other abilities if you must roll, but point buy (http://emrilgame.netau.net/Dmstuff/pointbuy.html) (Dungeon Master's Guide, page 169) is a much simpler and fairer system.)
A Rogue needs many good ability scores, but you can't have everything. Decide what you'll emphasize and what you can do without. If you're going to make it hard to target you (by using ranged attacks and using Hide whenever possible) you can make CON a "dump stat" (i.e., one you can de-emphasize). If you're going to use CHA-based skills like Bluff and Use Magic Device then CHA is important to you; otherwise it's another dump stat. If you're going to emphasize ranged combat, or you can spare a feat for Weapon Finesse, make STR a dump stat. INT and DEX are crucial, and WIS (for Spot and Listen, plus shoring up weak Will saving throws) is almost as important.
Rogues have many class skills, and never enough skill points. Decide what types of operations you'll focus on and allocate points to those until you've accomplished your goal. (An example: gaining a guaranteed +25 Tumble check to let you move through an enemy's position. Another: gaining 5 ranks in Bluff to gain bonuses to 4 other skills.)

If you're going for prestige classes, there are many options but few good choices.
Shadowdancer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/shadowdancer.htm) offers Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight, which makes your Rogue substantially more stealthy. However, the expense of qualifying for Shadowdancer is extremely high, to the degree that you'll need to plan for that from level 1. Basically, you'd need to do the following:
Enter immediately after Rogue 8, because Hide in Plain Sight is going to have diminishing value when enemies start getting lifesense or Mindsight (Lords of Madness, page 126).
Buy Mobility as an armor enhancement which grants the feat; see Magic Item Compendium on page 13. Also note that you can add Mobility to either Bracers of Armor (see Arms and Equipment Guide on page 130) or robes with an armor bonus (see Magic Item Compendium on page 234); you don't need actual armor. This is helpful if you want to use a Monk's Belt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#beltMonks), for instance.
Make Spring Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#springAttack) your next feat after taking Shadowdancer 1, which would be at level 9. You'll have already paid for that feat's prerequisites, and "doubling up" this way makes the total cost for both Hide in Plain Sight and Spring Attack barely cost-effective. Then you can Hide while attacking enemies in melee when you can succeed on the -20 penalty to that check, or use Spring Attack against enemies whose good Spot skills make the first option untenable.
If your campaign setting is in Forgotten Realms, I recommend instead taking the Dark Creature template in Cormyr:The Tearing Of The Weave (page 152), then using the level adjustment buyoff rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) to pay 3,000 XP at class level 3 to make that LA +1 go away. That's a much more affordable way to get Supernatural HiPS than Shadowdancer, but it's a Faerûn-only option.
Thief-Acrobat (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=3) is worth considering for certain types of nimble Rogues.

[herrhauptmann]

Perhaps Swashbuckler/rogue with daring outlaw? Gets int to damage too, doesn't it?

Otherwise, yah, pretty much everything that needed to be said, has been said.

[Onikani]

Some other advice/build options:

A relatively straight-forward way to build a rogue is go two-weapon fighting.

First up, dump your str to a 10, you only need enough to avoid a penalty.
Pump your dex as high as you can realistically go (with a point buy system this will probably be 16 before racial adjustments).
Get your int to a 14 (higher if realistically possible).


At level 1: take the Two Weapon-Fighting Feat, and get a short sword in each hand.
At level 3: take the Weapon Finesse feat (now you are hitting with your dex instead of str).
At level 6: consider taking Weapon Focus: Shortsword for an extra +1 to hit (take if you find that you miss too often, otherwise there are better choices).

Keep your tumble skill maxed out at ALL times, then when the combat starts tumble yourself into a flanking position and stab.

Since you have 2WF you will be able to stab with both hands as a Full action (this means you can only perform a 5' step as your move - but you can perform that step before, after, or anytime in between your stabs, so make sure you can keep your flank.
Whenever you are in a flanking position you will get Sneak Attack with every attack that hits.
At level 3 you will be looking at Weapon+2d6 per stab; assuming short swords that's 6d6 damage.


Another option that uses a few more books:
Consider going Rogue & Swashbuckler (Complete mage) and taking the feat Daring Outlaw (Complete Scoundral). This will initially slow down your damage (until level 6) but you will get Weapon Finesse as a free feat at level 2, have higher HP's, a higher BAB, and slightly better saves.
This uses the same strategy, but the build looks like this:
Level 1: Rogue1 (Feat: 2WF)
Level 2: Swash1 (Bonus Feat: Weapon Finesse)
Level 3: Swash2 (Feat: your choice)
Level 4: Rogue2
Level 5: Rogue3
Level 6: Swash3 (Feat: Daring Outlaw)

At level 6 you will have St + int bonuses to damage, and the same amount of Sneak Attack as if you had been a straight class rogue. As a note, you probably won't want to choose a PrC with this build...


Edit - i got ninja'd :D
Edit2 - First build incorrectly had WF and TWF in the wrong order, Corrected.

[Daftendirekt]

At level 1: take the Weapon Finesse feat (now you are hitting with your dex instead of str).

People always seem to forget that "BAB +1" requirement for Weapon Finesse. It bones low level rogues like no other, but it's still there.

[Onikani]

People always seem to forget that "BAB +1" requirement for Weapon Finesse. It bones low level rogues like no other, but it's still there.

You're right, but you can still swap 2WF with Finesse. The difference is largely negligible unless you are actually starting at level 1...Do people still do that? If so, definately go swash at level 2, lol!

I'll fix my post.

[LaughingRogue]

I'd also like to know what kind of rogue you are playing, for rogues I particularly like the "grey elf".

To expand upon the previous posts there are alot of things you can do with rogues, but it is very important that you pick your feats correctly.

A build suggestion:

Telling Blow build can work out nicely --- Take telling blow (allows you to apply sneak attack to critical hits) , Two Weapon Fighting, Get yourself a pair of Keen Kukris (this will give you a 15-20 threat range) with another property (Wounding comes to mind). Your third level feat should basically always be Weapon Finesse (allows you to add your dex to your attack rolls instead of your str.) , Craven as mentioned above is a really really nice feat for rogues, Deadly Precision can also be nice though Craven is to be much preferred.

There are plenty of builds available for rogues out there:

This link may help: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871666/The_3.5_Rogue_Handbook


Stats:

Dex: top stat
Int: second
Cha: Depending on your build it can be just about anywhere
Con: always nice to have
wis: dump
str: dump


Prestige Classes that are viable:

Shadow dancer Dip
Assassin (you could go full assassin there is nothing wrong with this class)
Nightsong Enforcer
Guild Thief
a lot more

Items:

Vest of Resistance (Great item, your saves are not great, VOR +5 is very nice)

Anklets of translocation (get of of grapple free, swift 10 foot step for getting your full attack)

Keen Kukris

many more these are just some things that I am thinking at the moment

I'm sure I missed ALOT but these are some basic things that can help you out

[Daftendirekt]

The difference is largely negligible unless you are actually starting at level 1...Do people still do that?

Yes, they do. And, for those two levels, the rogue hates being the rogue. If they take TWF, then they're swinging 1d20-2 all day long.

[Curmudgeon]

A relatively straight-forward way to build a rogue is go two-weapon fighting.
Straightforward, yes. Worthwhile, no.

Two-Weapon Fighting is an expensive feat chain with diminishing returns (i.e., each successive feat costs the same, but has a lower increase to your expected effectiveness). Rogues are a feat-starved class. It's almost always going to be the case that other feats will be better choices.

Two-weapon fighting provides no benefit at all unless you make full attacks, inviting full counterattacks in return. Rogues don't have proficiency with anything more than light armor, and impede many class abilities if they wear any armor with an Armor Check Penalty (ACP), and suffer if their armor restricts their Maximum Dexterity Bonus (MDB). They also have weak (d6) hit dice and too many important class abilities to make CON a priority. TWF is a recipe for early death.

Contrast Two-Weapon Fighting with Snap Kick. Whereas TWF offers an extra attack only with a full attack, Snap Kick offers an extra unarmed attack with all of the following:

full attack with at least one melee attack
standard action melee attack
attack of opportunity
bonus attack, such as from Improved Trip

Apart from the above analysis, the chance to make full attacks is situational. If your enemy uses skirmish (hit and move) tactics, you'll receive no benefit from TWF. If your DM plays enemies smart, TWF opportunities will occur mostly from foes who can turn your wimpy Rogue into paste. :smalleek:

[Keld Denar]

While Keen is a decent investment, Telling Blow is not. Telling Blow gives you an advantage in exactly 3 places. 90% of the time, you should take the time to tumble into flanking, use a magical or mundane item to set your foe off balance, or attack from concealment than roll the dice and pray for a crit.

Telling Blow is useful if:

1) Your foe has concealment. Concealment prevents SA, but not crits. If you crit, you apply SA.

2) Your foe is further than 30'. Normally, you can only get SA damage within 30', but if your foe is further than 30', you can also apply SA damage to them on a crit.

3) Your foe is immune to flanking, but not to crits. Improved Uncanny Dodge is one way, but there are others.

All too very situational to spend a feat on most of the time. If your DM runs the type of game where these situations occure often, its better than nothing, but otherwise is a waste of a feat.

[Onikani]

Straightforward, yes. Worthwhile, no.

Two-Weapon Fighting is an expensive feat chain with diminishing returns (i.e., each successive feat costs the same, but has a lower increase to your expected effectiveness). Rogues are a feat-starved class. It's almost always going to be the case that other feats will be better choices.

Two-weapon fighting provides no benefit at all unless you make full attacks, inviting full counterattacks in return. Rogues don't have proficiency with anything more than light armor, and impede many class abilities if they wear any armor with an Armor Check Penalty (ACP), and suffer if their armor restricts their Maximum Dexterity Bonus (MDB). They also have weak (d6) hit dice and too many important class abilities to make CON a priority. TWF is a recipe for early death.

Any rogue worth his salt is going to be wearing Mithril Chain as soon as he can afford it, 0 ACP, and with a max dex of +6 it will hold most rogues until at least level 10.
Yes they have weak HD, but why can't con be a seconday stat? With a 28+ point buy anyone can have a 16 dex, 14 int and 14 con; of course this is before racials. Even though con will be relatively low in the case of the OP, it is not true in all of them, so i don't see how that stands as a blanket statement.

I do agree that the 2WF chain isn't spectacular, esp at higher levels. You will notice that i only listed a basic 6 level build, and never said that he should venture down the whole 2wf chain.
We do not know what level his game will begin/end at, what the method for determining stats are, what his beginning wealth is, nor what books he is even allowed to use.
And judging by his post... he doesn't either.
I offered 2 simple builds, one that is phb only, and one that only uses 2 Completes as additional sources.



Contrast Two-Weapon Fighting with Snap Kick. Whereas TWF offers an extra attack only with a full attack, Snap Kick offers an extra unarmed attack with all of the following:

full attack with at least one melee attack
standard action melee attack
attack of opportunity
bonus attack, such as from Improved Trip

Apart from the above analysis, the chance to make full attacks is situational. If your enemy uses skirmish (hit and move) tactics, you'll receive no benefit from TWF. If your DM plays enemies smart, TWF opportunities will occur mostly from foes who can turn your wimpy Rogue into paste. :smalleek:

Snap Kick comes from ToB, and has a PreReq of Improved Unarmed Strike. Yes, it is better, but considering it takes 2 feats it should be. In a low level game I would still take 2wf and something else (Finesse) over IUS & Snap Kick... Starting at level 15, it's a different story.
Again, i made no assumptions on the availability of books (sadly i *still* know plenty of DM's that don't allow ToB) or starting level. Also, i didn't mention Flaws or traits, for that same reason.


I need help/ideas/names of good ways to build the character (what feats, etc.) and what good prestige classes there are in homebrew

Again, he is asking us to tell him what is good in his homebrew game, but didn't know enough to point us in any direction...
"Less complicated with no assumptions", is probably in his best interest right now.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

In low level games, a melee rogue is better served by a rapier and a MW buckler. its a more effective method of survival and distribution of wealth by level, and gives you enough money (perhaps) to invest in UMD and wands.

After level 10 is when TWF becomes more viable, though I (personal opinion) still dislike it. its expensive, both in feats and gold, and is only effective with full attacks, which in my experience is a poor idea for rogues.

Seriously, consider Use Magic Device, a MW buckler, a rapier, a Wand Bracer (from dungeonscape) and a pile of useful, but inexpensive wands. You will contribute more to your party in the first 10 levels (and probably later as well) than a TWF Rogue. IMO.

[Keld Denar]

Better than a Wand Bracer, get 2 Wand Chambers, one for you buckler, one for your weapon. Now you have 2 wands on hand at any given time, on top of whatever you might have from your Wand Bracer.

Pa CHING!

[ZombiePunch]

I have a lot of fun with a straight vanilla rogue.
1 level dip into wizard takes care of the level 20 dead level
and gets you some first level spells, free wand use, and you can trade your familiar and scribe scroll for 2 feats.

[Curmudgeon]

Yes they have weak HD, but why can't con be a seconday stat? With a 28+ point buy anyone can have a 16 dex, 14 int and 14 con; of course this is before racials.
CON can only be a good stat if something else isn't. With your choices you'll leave little for WIS (critical for perception skills and Will saves) and CHA (Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Use Magic Device).

Also, frankly, it's better not to build a character who has to get hit a lot.

I offered 2 simple builds ...
Yes, and there were other sub-par facets to those builds, like in the first one using dual shortswords (poorer critical threat range) rather than a rapier. Why decrease your chance of multiplying Craven, Knowledge Devotion, and STR bonus damage? I've got no clue why you'd be assuming some of those things aren't available, since the OP didn't indicate any source limitations.

Your other option failed to take into account the severe multiclassing XP penalties from uneven levels of Rogue + Swashbuckler when the chosen race has Favored Class: Wizard.

Snap Kick comes from ToB, and has a PreReq of Improved Unarmed Strike. Yes, it is better, but considering it takes 2 feats it should be.
As I noted, one of those feats can be obtained cheaply (1,310 gp for Bracers of Striking is a bargain). That's a paltry extra requirement for a class good at acquiring wealth.

One point I didn't bring up about TWF is that it causes problems when you switch between ranged and melee attacks. What's going to become of your longbow if you're forced to drop it on the field because you have to fight with swords in both hands? That's a good way to give an enemy a nice ranged weapon for the low, low cost of a single move action to pick it up. :smallamused:

[Onikani]

Yes, and there were other sub-par facets to those builds, like in the first one using dual shortswords (poorer critical threat range) rather than a rapier. Why decrease your chance of multiplying Craven, Knowledge Devotion, and STR bonus damage? I've got no clue why you'd be assuming some of those things aren't available, since the OP didn't indicate any source limitations.

Your other option failed to take into account the severe multiclassing XP penalties from uneven levels of Rogue + Swashbuckler when the chosen race has Favored Class: Wizard.

Dual short swords was specifically mentioned since I also suggested the possibility of later applying Weapon Focus to each, I wouldn't suggest dual wielding rapiers for obvious reasons. And as mentioned, I didn't assume availability of things like Craven, for reasons i've already stated.

While i didn't mention PreClass:Wiz, i did take it into account, my 6 level build had even levels of each and at no point would it have incurred an XP penalty.



As I noted, one of those feats can be obtained cheaply (1,310 gp for Bracers of Striking is a bargain). That's a paltry extra requirement for a class good at acquiring wealth.

Bracers of striking does give IUS, but it is still the DM's call to decide if a feat granted by an item qualifies for a prereq to a feat.



One point I didn't bring up about TWF is that it causes problems when you switch between ranged and melee attacks. What's going to become of your longbow if you're forced to drop it on the field because you have to fight with swords in both hands? That's a good way to give an enemy a nice ranged weapon for the low, low cost of a single move action to pick it up. :smallamused:

Neither of us did. Again, if you actually read my post you will see that i never even once mentioned using a ranged weapon.
I said tumble into a flank and start stabbing, it's straightforward enough for a player making his first character to learn the basic mechanics of the game.


I've never said those builds are perfect.
I said they were simple, and straightforward, and used a minimum of sources to produce a decent effect for a starting player.

I also have never criticized anything you have said, called it incorrect, impossible, or a bad decision. In fact i have agreed with everything you have said - under the caveat that the DM allows the source material and the campaign is starting at a level appropriate for those choices.

I feel that I have very clearly explained why I posted what i did, erring on the side of simplicity for multiple reasons i have already explained, and you continue to criticize me and only me (its like you can't see any other post in this thread) for no good reason, even finding new reasons to complain about issues that have never even come up.
So at this point I will stop feeding the troll and will no longer respond to this thread.

I wish Foxflare luck and welcome him to this wonderful game that we've all come to love.
Cheers.

[Runestar]

I don't recommend TWF'ing either. At lower levels, you really can't afford the attack penalty, and as stated, standing still leaves you wide open for a retaliatory full attack (which you have to suck up before you actually get your own opportunity for a full attack). Plus, if you want to TWF later, there are bracers in MIC which grant said feat for free.

Personally, if spring attack wasn't so darn expensive, I would consider it. But with so few feats, I would probably take improved initiative at 1st lv and weapon finesse at 3rd. At 6th lv, there are some interesting choices, like combat acrobat (PHB2), telling blow or vexing flanker.

[Curmudgeon]

Bracers of striking does give IUS, but it is still the DM's call to decide if a feat granted by an item qualifies for a prereq to a feat.
By the standard rules it's not a DM's call; having a feat (by whatever means) is having a feat. Deciding otherwise would be a house rule.

We're both trying to help the OP out here. But aiming for simplicity is a disservice. A D&D Rogue, when built and played effectively, is about as far from simple as you can get in the game. Suggesting otherwise, I think, can only lead to disappointment, and should be avoided. For me, a great deal of the attraction of the class is that inherent complexity. A Rogue is like a bicycle: you can have a simple one, or you can have a good one; you can't have both.

[Elric VIII]

Apart from the above analysis, the chance to make full attacks is situational. If your enemy uses skirmish (hit and move) tactics, you'll receive no benefit from TWF. If your DM plays enemies smart, TWF opportunities will occur mostly from foes who can turn your wimpy Rogue into paste. :smalleek:

That's why Rogue 20 is a dead level, WotC expects you to dip into Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian.:smallbiggrin:



Some other options include:

Martial Rogue:
You lose SA and gain Fighter Bonus Feats. This may seem counterintuitive, since on of the main problems with the Fighter is that Feats =/= Class Features. However, Rogues can make decent charger builds with this setup; your enemy cannot counterattack if they're dead. Rogues have an upper hand, when compared to the Barbarian since they have actual skill points, and can UMD for those niche areas when you cannot charge normally. A wand of Swift Fly deals with flying enemies and difficult terrain with only one item. If you have the funds you can even throw some things like Dimension Hop or True Strike + Quicken Wand Grip into the mix.

"I add eveything to my damage" TWF Rogue:
This includes Swashbucler 3+ (Int to damage), 1-2 levels of Fighter with the Hit-and-Run Tactics variant (DotU, Dex to damage vs flat-footed foes), a dip into Swordsage for Assasin's Stance and Shadow Blade (Dex to damage when in a Shadow Hand stance with a Shadow Hand weapon), and Craven (+level in SA damage).

This build really need Human to avoid multiclassing penalties and Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian (or other free movement) to resonably get off a full attack.



Also, remember to be nice to you caster buddies. Buy some Pearls of Power for them in exchange for GMW, so you can focus your funds elsewhere.

[The Underlord]

if you use an archer you want to get your hands on a energy bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) as soon as possible. If you are melee and are allowed flaws and/or are willing to dip fighter levels(if you dont need the feats dip one level with the sneak attack variant, otherwise take the standard 2 level dip in fighter) you can take the champion of corellon prc to get dex to damage.

[Curmudgeon]

That's why Rogue 20 is a dead level, WotC expects you to dip into Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian.:smallbiggrin:
OK, that lets you get a full melee attack without needing to already be within 5' of an enemy. It doesn't enable sneak attack (by far the main source of Rogue damage), and since you're not going to kill the enemy without sneak attack it leaves you exactly where you don't want to be: set up perfectly for a full counterattack.

How is this helping, exactly?

[hex0]

There is always additional favored class feat...

Or just play a Rogue/Wizard/Elf Paragon/Arcane Trickster, maybe.

For a new player I would suggest just sticking to Rogue/Swas

[Seharvepernfan]

If you plan on going to 20, and you have tome of battle, go rogue 19/swordsage 1, 6th is the best level to take it.

You'll get +1 to init, weapon focus, two good stances (island of blades, hunters sense), a couple good maneuvers (wolf fang strike? the twf one), and a couple good boosts (sudden leap, wind stride), and if you take it at 6th or later, you can qualify for Assassins stance, which is THE rogue stance. You also get +2 to your will save.

It is cherrypicking, but really, all you get is pretty much rogue stuff anyway.

All you lose is the 20th level of rogue.

[Draz74]

A few corrections/additions/counter-arguments:


Education (Eberron Campaign Setting, page 52): make all Knowledges class skills for all your classes; level 1
Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion, pages 60-61): gain bonuses to attack and damage based on the 6 Knowledge skills related to D&D creature types
Knowledge Devotion is a big payoff, but also a big cost. It eats up a LOT of your skill points, making you less good at traditional Rogue tasks such as picking locks or talking your way out of a social encounter.

Is it worth it? Maybe, but make sure you make a choice one way or the other right from the start, and stick to it.

Also, even if you go the route of Knowledge Devotion, it's arguable whether it's worth taking the Education feat. Feats are precious. You get one of the best Knowledge skills for K.Devotion (Local) anyway, and when you take the feat, it makes another Knowledge skill into a permanent class skill. If your campaign is mostly fighting Undead and Humanoids, for example, you can max Know(Local) and Know(Religion), then just take a single cross-class rank in (Arcana), (Dungeoneering), (Nature), and (The Planes) each. This might be preferable to the Education feat, depending how much diversity the monsters in your campaign have.


Darkstalker (Lords of Madness, page 179): Hide even against enemies with blindsight, tremorsense, & c.
This feat is AWESOME.


Lightbringer Rogue Penetrating Strike (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, page 208): trade trap sense @ Rogue 3 for the ability to deal sneak attack with ½ normal dice to those normally immune to sneak attack, when you flank them
Whats the difference between this one and the Dungeonscape version? I forget.

In any case, taking some version of this ability is EXTREMELY important.


Uncanny Bravery (Dragon Magic, page 14) swaps improved uncanny dodge @ Rogue 8 for immunity to dragons' Frightful Presence and +4 to saving throws against other fear effects; this helps out with Craven
Oooh, I didn't know about this one. Nifty!


In the first regular round of combat make a full ranged attack with your longbow against enemies within 30' who haven't yet acted, because you get to add sneak attack damage every time. Doing anything else (like moving to close for melee) would be throwing away guaranteed sneak attack opportunities.
This is good advice for higher levels (and against monsters who don't have Uncanny Dodge or crit immunity), but at Levels 2-7, your full attack is just one attack anyway, so you might be better off moving into (flanking) position and sneak attacking with a melee weapon. Your party will appreciate the flank. On the other hand, you might get counterattacked. Situational benefit on the whole.


Keen is the only non-numerical enhancement worth taking,
Attack accuracy with sneak attack is indeed quite important, but I dunno, there are some pretty sweet (non-Core) weapon enhancements out there ...

Also, the importance of +'s on your magic weapon depends highly on whether you'll be getting Greater Magic Weapon spells from your party each day. If you will, then there's no point buying a magic weapon with a higher enhancement bonus than +1. (Offer to buy the Wizard or Cleric a Level 3 or Level 4 Pearl of Power in exchange for the daily buff.)


Shadowdancer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/shadowdancer.htm) offers Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight, which makes your Rogue substantially more stealthy. However, the expense of qualifying for Shadowdancer is extremely high, to the degree that you'll need to plan for that from level 1. Basically, you'd need to do the following:
Enter immediately after Rogue 8, because Hide in Plain Sight is going to have diminishing value when enemies start getting lifesense or Mindsight (Lords of Madness, page 126).
Note that, if you go Shadowdancer at all, you're probably best off taking just one level of it.

Also note that there are superior versions of Dodge in splatbooks, which still count as Dodge for Shadowdancer Prerequisites. In particular, Expeditious Dodge (from Races of the Wild) is much better than normal Dodge if you are a speedy character (such as if your party casts Haste a lot).


Make Spring Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#springAttack) your next feat after taking Shadowdancer 1, which would be at level 9. You'll have already paid for that feat's prerequisites, and "doubling up" this way makes the total cost for both Hide in Plain Sight and Spring Attack barely cost-effective. Then you can Hide while attacking enemies in melee when you can succeed on the -20 penalty to that check, or use Spring Attack against enemies whose good Spot skills make the first option untenable.
Another feat that makes the Dodge/Mobility prerequisites less painful is Elusive Target from Complete Warrior. It's better than Spring Attack, generally. It makes it so that, with a good AC and some concealment, you might just be able to eat a full counterattack from monsters without needing too many Hit Points (since it negates Power Attack bonuses against you -- which a lot of monsters rely on heavily).

Again, Elusive Target is only worth it if you're already getting Dodge and Mobility anyway.


If your campaign setting is in Forgotten Realms, I recommend instead taking the Dark Creature template in Cormyr:The Tearing Of The Weave (page 152), then using the level adjustment buyoff rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) to pay 3,000 XP at class level 3 to make that LA +1 go away. That's a much more affordable way to get Supernatural HiPS than Shadowdancer, but it's a Faerûn-only option.
Curmudgeon doesn't like [Ex]traordinary versions of Hide in Plain Sight, but they're just as useful as [Su]pernatural versions if you combo them with an ability that gives you constant Concealment. Check out Ernir's Lists of Necessary Magic Items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) under "Miss chances" to find out your options for getting constant concealment.

Then, once you have one of those, you can pick up the Hide in Plain Sight ability from the Dark Template (Tome of Magic, use Level Adjustment Buyoff) or the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (Tome of Magic, an item that gives the Dark Template with no LA).


People always seem to forget that "BAB +1" requirement for Weapon Finesse. It bones low level rogues like no other, but it's still there.
Yeah ... :smallannoyed: The single most tempting reason to dip Swashbuckler levels. :smalltongue:

If you want to fight in melee with your DEX score and you're short on feats, another option that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is (light) Feycraft weapons (DMG2). For a tiny decrease in damage, you can get a weapon that's automatically finessable. Unfortunately doesn't work with rapiers.


Telling Blow build can work out nicely --- Take telling blow (allows you to apply sneak attack to critical hits) ,
As Keld explained, this feat usually isn't worth it.


Two Weapon Fighting, Get yourself a pair of Keen Kukris (this will give you a 15-20 threat range) with another property (Wounding comes to mind).
Rogues aren't proficient with kukris. Bad idea unless you're dipping into another class that gives you proficiency (like Swordsage).


Deadly Precision can also be nice though Craven is to be much preferred.
Telling Blow is bad. Deadly Precision is awful. Do the math -- on average, it increases your sneak attack damage by about half a hit point per Sneak Attack die. NOT worth it.


Prestige Classes that are viable:
An option that nobody has mentioned is Uncanny Trickster (Complete Scoundrel). Progresses all your Rogue features, except at Level 1 (which means you can go Rogue 17 / Uncanny Trickster 3 and still get all of the Rogue's class features, since 20 is a dead level anyway). Also keeps your skill points at full capacity.

Personally, my favorite all-around Rogue build, if you can get good enough ability scores, is

Rogue 10 / Factotum 3 / Swordsage 4 / Uncanny Trickster 3


Two-Weapon Fighting is an expensive feat chain with diminishing returns (i.e., each successive feat costs the same, but has a lower increase to your expected effectiveness). Rogues are a feat-starved class. It's almost always going to be the case that other feats will be better choices.

I totally agree that taking all of the TWF-tree is not worth it.

On the other hand, taking just one Two-Weapon Fighting feat and/or buying Gloves of the Balanced Hand (Magic Item Compendium) is a pretty cool option at higher levels (when you want to be getting full attacks anyway, and hopefully you have some Tome of Battle abilities that make you better at mobility/survival).


In low level games, a melee rogue is better served by a rapier and a MW buckler. its a more effective method of survival and distribution of wealth by level, and gives you enough money (perhaps) to invest in UMD and wands.
Yes! The buckler (with a wand chamber!) is a great option, especially if you don't intend to ever use TWF. It even works with Curmudgeon's tactic of starting off combat using a longbow:


Buckler

This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it.


One point I didn't bring up about TWF is that it causes problems when you switch between ranged and melee attacks. What's going to become of your longbow if you're forced to drop it on the field because you have to fight with swords in both hands? That's a good way to give an enemy a nice ranged weapon for the low, low cost of a single move action to pick it up. :smallamused:
Ideally, your party kills the mischievous monster that uses such a tactic, and takes your bow back. :smallwink:


OK, that lets you get a full melee attack without needing to already be within 5' of an enemy. It doesn't enable sneak attack (by far the main source of Rogue damage), and since you're not going to kill the enemy without sneak attack it leaves you exactly where you don't want to be: set up perfectly for a full counterattack.

How is this helping, exactly?
Not to defend this strategy, overall, but I believe the intention was for this to be used against a flat-footed target, who (as you said yourself) is an automatic Sneak Attack opportunity.


If you plan on going to 20, and you have tome of battle, go rogue 19/swordsage 1, 6th is the best level to take it.

You'll get +1 to init, weapon focus, two good stances (island of blades, hunters sense), a couple good maneuvers (wolf fang strike? the twf one), and a couple good boosts (sudden leap, wind stride), and if you take it at 6th or later, you can qualify for Assassins stance, which is THE rogue stance. You also get +2 to your will save.

It is cherrypicking, but really, all you get is pretty much rogue stuff anyway.

All you lose is the 20th level of rogue.

Correction: the best level to dip Swordsage is either Level 5 or Level 9. (Or, if you have a decent Wisdom score, taking two Swordsage levels might be worthwhile. Then they should be at Levels 5 and 8, or Levels 9 and 10.)

Also, it's up to DM interpretation of the text whether you can get Assassin's Stance from one level of Swordsage. By very strict RAW, you can't. (You can still get it from one level of Swordsage plus a feat.)

Also, Wind Stride is a terrible maneuver, sadly. :smallfrown: There are much better ways to use your swift action.

[Piggy Knowles]

Honestly, if you are allowed to take the wilderness rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) variant from Unearthed Arcana, then the Education feat becomes pretty unnecessary. You get Know (local) and Know (nature) to begin with, and Knowledge Devotion adds a third to your list.

Then just spend a couple of cross-class points in the remaining three, and you're guaranteed at least a minor bonus no matter who you face, without having to dedicate a feat to it.

I generally prefer the wilderness rogue anyhow - I like their skill list better (I've never found a game where Handle Animal isn't useful at the lower levels, for instance), and it adds some extra special abilities that could be useful depending on the campaign. However, you do lose Diplomacy and Gather Information, which could hurt if you are planning on doubling as the party face.

[foxflare27]

I just want to say thanks to everyone for your help and for being explanatory about everything! There's so many rules and options that it kinda swamped me at first :smalleek:, but you guys have helped to better understand them. I certainly have alot to try and figure out.

[marcielle]

First of all, do you want to be a deadly assasin type or a to be an artful dodger type? If you haven't yet made the character, may I suggest some more specialized alternatives?

Swordsages are deadlier in combat and have access to some neat stuff( like at will invisibility and teleportation) a Rogue would have to pay through the nose to get. You'll have better weapons and fighting skills as a Swordsage but you will be less useful in situations where skill and particularly diplomacy are needed. Also, you'll be less adept at supporting your group in general. You lose the beautiful UMD but get some advice on maneuver selection and that won't hurt much.

Factotums are the most skillfull class, getting EVERY SKILL EVER as well as a few class features that synergize Intelligence(Int to Initiative being a prominent example). They can achieve stupid amounts of skill bonuses using synergy and class features. However, they are significantly less usefull in combat unless you use the Iaijutsu focus trick. Some DMs do not like that and you'll have to invest quite a bit into making it work. Even then, Rogues will probably still outfight you.

p.s. A cheap concealment cost is the +1 enchantment 'smoking' from Lords of Darkness. Note, it does not have to be on your active weapon. Activate, sheath, enjoy your concealment. Not so awesome on it's own, but if your DM allows you to enchant singular pieces of ammo, this is the earlies concealment you'll have access to.

[foxflare27]

I know for sure that I definitely want to be able to "dance around" during combat, because most things you fight can't kill you if it can't hit you (which I'm guessing is very good when/if you face very hard-hitting enemies) Being able to actually do considerable damage is good too. This may just be me being a noob, but what is UMD in regards to d&d?

[marcielle]

Use Magic Device.
Widely considered to be THE BEST skill in DnD(diplomacy can do more damage but that's getting into the realms of 'rocks fall') because it gets you whatever spell off any list you like so long as you have the GP to burn and the ranks to reliably succeed the skill check. Used for activating wands of spells that are not on your spell list(or if you flat out don't have a spell list).

Also, if you are getting hit often, invest in some Mithril Chainmail/Breastplate. They give medium AC bonus but weigh like Light armor. Expensive, but not as expensive as a Ressurection:smallwink:

Here's a more structured guide to being a sneaky bastard:The Rogue's Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156350)

Swordsages can dance circles around an enemy as well as Rogues but don't need a flanking buddy and can generally do more harm, even with Craven and critical strings taken into account. You also have no fear of golems, undeads, plants, yadda yadda.

EDIT: For not getting hit, remember that MISS CHANCE> AC.
Instead of armor, just get concealment( or equivalents). Note that Miss chance does not stack. Period.

[foxflare27]

again showing my ignorance, how exactly does diplomacy have the ability to do "damage"? So I'm definitely going to want to buy some sort of useful magic device when I have the gold for it. Thanks!

[marcielle]

Most infamous example...
DIPLOMANCE ZEUS
You need a diplomacy check of about 60. This is actually achieveable by level 11 if you pour most of your resources into it. Jumplomancy, a few Diplomacy/Cha boosting items and poof. You now have a GOD fanatically devoted to YOU. You need a door opened? LIGNING BOLT! Owlbear on your tail? LIGHTNING BOLT! BBEG just standing around anywhere on your general plane of existence? RAIN OF FIRE!(You were expecting a lightning bolt, weren't you?):smallbiggrin:

There is actually a guide to this but I shan't put in a link since, like Pun-Pun and the crusader infinite damage loop, these sort of things are merely thought excercises NEVER TO BE USED in an actual game.

p.s. In case you are wondering what happens if you DO use these tactics, the DM will arbitrarily kill off your current character and restrict your means of pulling the same trick off again. This is what is generally refered to as 'Rocks fall, everyone dies' usually shortened to 'rocks fall'.

[Vasja]

Id like to know where people on this board take it that Craven damage multiplies on crits?

From a positive reading of the rules it states that:
1) Precision damage is not multiplied by crists (PHB/SRD).
2) Craven grants extra damage when making a sneak attack equal to char level (CoR).

I understand the general concept of numerical bonuses multiplying and die not and I can also appreciate that it doesnt state explicitly that the craven damage is sneak attack damage, but to consider it an unnamed bonus would be wishful thinking imho as it only triggers if SA triggers. Therefore I believe Craven to be an exception to the general rule on numerical bonuses multiplying on crits as Craven damage would still count as precision damage.

[dextercorvia]

Id like to know where people on this board take it that Craven damage multiplies on crits?

From a positive reading of the rules it states that:
1) Precision damage is not multiplied by crists (PHB/SRD).
2) Craven grants extra damage when making a sneak attack equal to char level (CoR).

I understand the general concept of numerical bonuses multiplying and die not and I can also appreciate that it doesnt state explicitly that the craven damage is sneak attack damage, but to consider it an unnamed bonus would be wishful thinking imho as it only triggers if SA triggers. Therefore I believe Craven to be an exception to the general rule on numerical bonuses multiplying on crits as Craven damage would still count as precision damage.

#1 is incorrect. Extra dice of damage are not multiplied on a crit. Precision damage is fine. Cf. Swashbuckler. Craven is never stated to give precision based damage anyway.

[Vasja]

I'm aware of the swashbuckler and insightful strike is in the same pot with sneak attack by by prohibition of triggering reasons, but does it actually state anywhere, that insightful strike multiplies on a crit? What I'm going at is that people seem to be making a rule out of insightful strike without it actually giving any grounds for it.
1) SA doesn't multiply on crits.
2) Insightful strike doesn't trigger on SA immune creatures.
3) Therefore insightful strike is precision damage (doubtful, bc all other forms of prec dmg are die based, but i'll roll with it)
4) Insightful strike is a numerical bonus and therefore multiplies on a crit (this is where I'd like to see a clear text saying thats the case)
5) Therefore Craven doubles too.
This seems to be the reasoning as far as I understand it.

But I'm troubled by the fact that insightful strike is thrown so easily into the pot with SA and a rule seems to be made out of thin air bc of that.

To dextercorvia:
As to Craven not being precision damage. SRD:
"Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied." No talk of extra dice, only sneak attack. My claim is that as craven only triggers with SA, it is clearly part of SA, therefore not multiplied.

[Elric VIII]

But I'm troubled by the fact that insightful strike is thrown so easily into the pot with SA and a rule seems to be made out of thin air bc of that.

To dextercorvia:
As to Craven not being precision damage. SRD:
"Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied." No talk of extra dice, only sneak attack. My claim is that as craven only triggers with SA, it is clearly part of SA, therefore not multiplied.



Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage, such as those dealt by precision damage abilities, are never multiplied.

Rules Compendium specifically calls out dice. Craven and Insightful Strike are multiplied the same way bonus Power Attack damage is multiplied.

Also, from the Precision Damage entry:


If the bonus damage from a precision damage ability is expressed as extra dice of damage, the damage from those dice is never multiplied when the attack receives a damage multiplier (such as from a critical hit).

This seems to imply that static damage from such a source is multiplied.

[Curmudgeon]

As to Craven not being precision damage. SRD:
"Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied." No talk of extra dice, only sneak attack. My claim is that as craven only triggers with SA, it is clearly part of SA, therefore not multiplied.
You're looking so closely at that line you're not seeing what it refers to. You only need one extra sentence to get the picture.
This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. It just finished explaining what "this extra damage" was (i.e., the base sneak attack damage, expressed in dice) so you'd know exactly what the phrase referred to.

The Damage section of the Combat chapter (Player's Handbook, page 134) says this:

Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. ...
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage, such as that dealt by a sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword, are never multiplied. The exception is only for the dice of sneak attack, weapon enhancements, & c.

[dextercorvia]

I'm aware of the swashbuckler and insightful strike is in the same pot with sneak attack by by prohibition of triggering reasons, but does it actually state anywhere, that insightful strike multiplies on a crit? What I'm going at is that people seem to be making a rule out of insightful strike without it actually giving any grounds for it.
1) SA doesn't multiply on crits.
2) Insightful strike doesn't trigger on SA immune creatures.
3) Therefore insightful strike is precision damage (doubtful, bc all other forms of prec dmg are die based, but i'll roll with it)
4) Insightful strike is a numerical bonus and therefore multiplies on a crit (this is where I'd like to see a clear text saying thats the case)
5) Therefore Craven doubles too.
This seems to be the reasoning as far as I understand it.

But I'm troubled by the fact that insightful strike is thrown so easily into the pot with SA and a rule seems to be made out of thin air bc of that.

To dextercorvia:
As to Craven not being precision damage. SRD:
"Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied." No talk of extra dice, only sneak attack. My claim is that as craven only triggers with SA, it is clearly part of SA, therefore not multiplied.

Can you find any quote, anywhere that talks about Precision Damage (not just sneak attack dice) not multiplying on a crit?

[Vasja]

Thanks for your thorough answers Elric and Curmudgeon. I was not aware of rules compendium page 42 about precision damage as I dont't have the book. That clears things up. For future reference: It explicitly states that only extra dice of precision damage aren't multiplied. And I'm happy to roll with that, as rogues need help anyway.

I'm a bit dissapointed at dextercovia's answer though: answering my retort which included a specific question with only a question is a form of demagogy imho.

[marcielle]

DID SOMEONE SAY DEMOGORGON!?!
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070606191953/forgottenrealms/images/e/e8/Demogorgon2.jpg (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/index.php?title=Demogorgon&image=Demogorgon2-jpg)

[Draz74]

I'm a bit dissapointed at dextercovia's answer though: answering my retort which included a specific question with only a question is a form of demagogy imho.

:smallconfused:


The Socratic method (also known as method of elenchus, elenctic method, Socratic irony, or Socratic debate), named after the classical Greek philosopher Socrates, is a form of inquiry and debate between individuals with opposing viewpoints based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to illuminate ideas. It is a dialectical method, often involving an oppositional discussion in which the defense of one point of view is pitted against the defense of another; one participant may lead another to contradict him in some way, strengthening the inquirer's own point.

A time-honored method of education and mutual discussion.


Demagogy (/ˈdɛməɡɒdʒi/[1]) or demagoguery (/ˈdɛməɡɒɡəri/[2]) (Ancient Greek: δημαγωγία, from δῆμος dēmos "people" and ἄγειν agein "to lead") is a strategy for gaining political power by appealing to the prejudices, emotions, fears, vanities and expectations of the public—typically via impassioned rhetoric and propaganda, and often using nationalist, populist or religious themes.

[Urpriest]

Thanks for your thorough answers Elric and Curmudgeon. I was not aware of rules compendium page 42 about precision damage as I dont't have the book. That clears things up. For future reference: It explicitly states that only extra dice of precision damage aren't multiplied. And I'm happy to roll with that, as rogues need help anyway.

I'm a bit dissapointed at dextercovia's answer though: answering my retort which included a specific question with only a question is a form of demagogy imho.


DID SOMEONE SAY DEMOGORGON!?!
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070606191953/forgottenrealms/images/e/e8/Demogorgon2.jpg (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/index.php?title=Demogorgon&image=Demogorgon2-jpg)

This exchange will soon be sigged. Well, a summarized version.

[Vasja]

:smallconfused:



A time-honored method of education and mutual discussion.

Asking and answering questions.

Yes, demogorgonry in it's classical sense only covers political speakers. The notion is used nowadays also for people ducking and weaving to avoid answering questions.

[dextercorvia]

Asking and answering questions.

Yes, demogorgonry in it's classical sense only covers political speakers. The notion is used nowadays also for people ducking and weaving to avoid answering questions.

I rather take offense to this. And I thank Draz for his kind references. Parts of my education were quite Socratic, and sometimes I fall back on the old standbys. In this method, the instructor asks and the student answers. If the student asks, it is well within normal for the question to be answered with another.

To begin with, you asked:


I'm aware of the swashbuckler and insightful strike is in the same pot with sneak attack by by prohibition of triggering reasons, but does it actually state anywhere, that insightful strike multiplies on a crit? What I'm going at is that people seem to be making a rule out of insightful strike without it actually giving any grounds for it.
<snip>
But I'm troubled by the fact that insightful strike is thrown so easily into the pot with SA and a rule seems to be made out of thin air bc of that.

To dextercorvia:
As to Craven not being precision damage. SRD:
"Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied." No talk of extra dice, only sneak attack. My claim is that as craven only triggers with SA, it is clearly part of SA, therefore not multiplied.

I was presuming you were aware of the general rule, since you were referring to it above, but obviously (due to your later comments) you weren't.


Multiplying Damage

Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.

This puts the burden of proof back on you, so I asked:


Can you find any quote, anywhere that talks about Precision Damage (not just sneak attack dice) not multiplying on a crit?

Asking us to find an specific rule stating that a general rule is in effect in a specific situation is not reasonable. You were making an incorrect assumption, and I questioned the grounds of your assumption. This is not avoiding your question. This was simply a question pointing out the flaw in your assumption.

[Keld Denar]

Point Blank Shot is non-dice precision based damage. So is, IIRC, Ranger's Favored Enemy mechanic. I'm AFB on my phone though.

[Curmudgeon]

Point Blank Shot is non-dice precision based damage. So is, IIRC, Ranger's Favored Enemy mechanic. I'm AFB on my phone though.
The Ranger's Favored Enemy bonus was described as precision damage in 3.0, but not in 3.5 D&D.