Mounted Archers

[Little Brother]

For a campaign I'm working on, one of the players has requested a mounted archer build, practical at both low and high levels(We're starting at three, and probably going to finish by level 15 or just under). I was thinking something like the Supermount, but it appears to suck at low levels. And it's a somewhat low-magic world, so no casting more than a half-caster/manifester.

On a second note, how would you stat out mongols?

Thanks.

[Mr.Moron]

Personally I'd start by looking up existing homebrew on ToB archery/riding fighting styles.

From what I've seen though the ones out there are pretty heavily lean on the more magical aspects of that source.

I think a lower-magic game would probably be served by creating a class for the player from scratch. It's generally what I do when hit with a character concept that's fitting thematically, but awkward mechanically.

[Incanur]

Mounted archery is generally decent in D&D within the appropriate environment. Yeah, it sucks in a cramped dungeon, but how could it not? The Shaaryan hunter prestige class (http://realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/prestige2.pl?class=Shaaryan_Hunter) focuses on mounted archery and has a decidedly mongol feel.

[Ravens_cry]

A lancer in light or medium armour would also be a good Mongol-esche character.

[Incanur]

Oh, the ridiculous spot rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168787) also make life difficult for archers in general. Your average peasant would be lucky to notice somebody forty yards away.

[Eldariel]

You'll mostly want the feats for this. Archery Handbook (brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0) covers both, archery and mounted archery far as that goes. Obviously the weapon of choice is a Composite Longbow and you can't afford any manner of precision damage due to range caps.

As such, the only logical choice in a low magic environment is a martial archer. Either ToB-base with dips for feats & skills or a multi-dip with 3.0 PRCs (Peerless Archer [Silver Marches] & Deepwood Sniper [Masters of the Wild]). Either way, you need lots of feats and some skills (especially Spot) so some levels in Fighter & Ranger are a given, and you probably want enough Barbarian for Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) & Extra Rage [Complete Warrior] to go with it.


Warblade goes nicely as a base for this with some utility stances (in a low magic world, Giant's Stance is actually useful tho again has problems with the stupid Mountain Dragon limitations) and latter Dancing Mongoose, Raging Mongoose & Time Stands Still. It definitely goes a long way towards making it more workable on higher levels, and also makes the character somewhat decent as a battle leader if you feel so inclined, and in mounted melee combat as a free bonus.


I'd look at taking ~2-4 levels of Ranger, 1-2 levels of Barbarian and 2-4 levels of Fighter with Ranged Weapon Mastery [Player's Handbook II], Woodland Archer [Races of the Wild], and perhaps Knowledge Devotion [Complete Champion] with Knowledge: Nature and Local as the focal points. Then obviously Mounted Combat + Mounted Archery + Improved Mounted Archery (the last one is pretty damn good, allowing you to freely shoot at any point of the mount's movement and practically negating all the related penalties) and perhaps Tunnel Riding (tho it's really feat intensive but would make mounted combat doable in dungeons as unlikely as that sounds).

Then you just need a mount; Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) and Leadership are the two easiest ways of acquiring a scaling one as a class feature without having to shop for exotic creatures.

[Devmaar]

Swift Hunter works if you ignore Errata

[Little Brother]

Thanks for all the input, guys. The player said he wants to be a halfling, 'cuz he likes the idea of riding a dog that can kill things while killing things. How can we counteract the decrease in damage from being small?

Next question: Is it possible to get a paladin mount without having to fool with 5 levels of paladin?

[hex0]

Thanks for all the input, guys. The player said he wants to be a halfling, 'cuz he likes the idea of riding a dog that can kill things while killing things. How can we counteract the decrease in damage from being small?

Next question: Is it possible to get a paladin mount without having to fool with 5 levels of paladin?

Prestige Paladin? Ranger with rideable animal companion?

[Eldariel]

Thanks for all the input, guys. The player said he wants to be a halfling, 'cuz he likes the idea of riding a dog that can kill things while killing things. How can we counteract the decrease in damage from being small?

It's fine. Just get as much Strength as possible, stack on it a few flat bonuses like Ranged Weapon Mastery and you're fine. Just don't bother with weapon size related bonuses and it doesn't really influence the whole overtly much. Most of the damage comes from flat bonuses and Strength, -1 effective damage from size decrease and -1 Strength isn't the end of the world (matters more early than lategame). If you have access to Pathfinder, Deadly Aim (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deadly-aim-combat) really helps.


Next question: Is it possible to get a paladin mount without having to fool with 5 levels of paladin?

Like I said in my last post, Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a). Not the same thing as Paladin Mount (kinda better, actually) but a companion that can be e.g. Riding Dog that scales by level, works just fine as a mount. And he can later on have a flying mount of some kind if he wants to.

[Little Brother]

It's fine. Just get as much Strength as possible, stack on it a few flat bonuses like Ranged Weapon Mastery and you're fine. Just don't bother with weapon size related bonuses and it doesn't really influence the whole overtly much. Most of the damage comes from flat bonuses and Strength, -1 effective damage from size decrease and -1 Strength isn't the end of the world (matters more early than lategame). If you have access to Pathfinder, Deadly Aim (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deadly-aim-combat) really helps.



Like I said in my last post, Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a). Not the same thing as Paladin Mount (kinda better, actually) but a companion that can be e.g. Riding Dog that scales by level, works just fine as a mount. And he can later on have a flying mount of some kind if he wants to.I was thinking a pseudo-supermount, just so it wouldn't get squished in mid-levels. How would a Supermount-light(Like, effective level 10 and 14) with an archer compare to a party of Martial Adepts and a PsyWar?

[ZombiePunch]

Two of my mounted archer builds

human with a shortbow
Ranger2/Druid5/Fighter2/Beastmaster1/WildPlainsOutrider3/BowmanCharger7

and

halfling with a heavy repeating crossbow
Rogue2/Fighter8/DeepwoodSniper2/Beastmaster1/HalflingOutrider4/ExoticWeaponMaster3


Wild Plains Outrider and Bowman Charger are good mounted classes
and Halfling Outrider is great for halflings.

[Eldariel]

I was thinking a pseudo-supermount, just so it wouldn't get squished in mid-levels. How would a Supermount-light(Like, effective level 10 and 14) with an archer compare to a party of Martial Adepts and a PsyWar?

Supermount isn't the way you want to go here, most likely. Supermount requires investing a large amount of class levels to making your mount a beast. I wager he wants to be the beast himself and let his Mount be just that, a Mount. Standard Druid AC is sturdy enough and especially level-scaling Wild Cohort comes close. Just get appropriate Bardings for it and magic gear as appropriate and it'll be fine.

You'll want to dedicate the class levels towards being an archer; that's work enough without heavy use of spells so I wouldn't want to try and dual purpose the class levels especially since a large amount of the natural class levels (2-4 Fighter, 1-2 Barbarian, all of the potential Warblade/Deepwood Sniper/Cragtop Archer/Peerless Archer) contribute nothing towards your Mount. You could make some makeshift version with Beastmaster, Wild Cohort & some Paladin but the class build would be contorted and needlessly complex, not to mention you'd lose out on some efficiency in the Archery end.

If I understand correctly, he wants to be an Archer on a Mount rather than a Man With a Mount Who Happens To Carry A Bow While The Mount Kills Everything. Provided the Mount isn't the actual main combatant, I wouldn't be terribly worried; just make sure to switch to a Dire animal when appropriate for good Will-saves and he'll have a companion that likely has better saves and AC than the local Fighter (albeit less HP). Since you're more like to be targeted than it, Reflex-saves, Will-saves, Fort-saves & Evasion are the most important parts for its safety and it has all of those (Dire Animals have good Fort-saves; tho even just Riding Dog gets Devotion eventually which also helps). This is by default from Wild Cohort. Also, Wild Cohorts are exceedingly easy to replace; it's just 24 hours to call a new one if the old one dies. And most of his archery tricks still work without the mount too, so that's not too terrible.


Make sure he plays Strongheart Halfling though; as you might've noticed, there's an awful lot of feats involved in Mounted Archery so every bonus feat is worth its weight in gold.

[Telok]

I came up with a halfling rogue wolf rider build once upon a time,

1 rogue
2 rogue
3 rogue
4 rogue
5 rogue
6 ranger
7 outrider
8 outrider
9 swdsage
10 rogue
11 rogue
12 rogue
13 rogue

Feats were Mounted Combat, Wild Cohort, Mounted Archery, WF:Crossbow, and Crossbow Sniper. The mount is a Magebred (Eb p295) or Warbeast (MM2 p219) Wolf with the feats Wild Talent, Speed of Thought, and Up the Walls (all from Psi-Handbook/d20SRD). Teach it a trick to gain a psionic focus.

It ended with a wolf that had +30 move (template, feat, outrider) and could run up walls while using the rider's Move Silent and Hide checks. Then throwing sneak attack and +1/2 Dex mod damage out to 60' with a UMD fallback tactic. It isn't great shakes in combat but has alot of potential for out of combat utility too.

[Little Brother]

If I understand correctly, he wants to be an Archer on a Mount rather than a Man With a Mount Who Happens To Carry A Bow While The Mount Kills Everything. Provided the Mount isn't the actual main combatant, I wouldn't be terribly worried; just make sure to switch to a Dire animal when appropriate for good Will-saves and he'll have a companion that likely has better saves and AC than the local Fighter (albeit less HP). Since you're more like to be targeted than it, Reflex-saves, Will-saves, Fort-saves & Evasion are the most important parts for its safety and it has all of those (Dire Animals have good Fort-saves; tho even just Riding Dog gets Devotion eventually which also helps). This is by default from Wild Cohort. Also, Wild Cohorts are exceedingly easy to replace; it's just 24 hours to call a new one if the old one dies. And most of his archery tricks still work without the mount too, so that's not too terrible.He said he still wanted the mount to be able to slap things decently, so he's not boned if he is, for some reason, stuck in melee. How does Mystic Ranger seem, then, since it starts at level 3? I think Hunter's Mercy, I think it is, is a great spell, and such. Any ideas on what to do after LV 10 or so?

So, what good animals are there, then?

And how would one make low-level mongols for mooks?

[Eldariel]

He said he still wanted the mount to be able to slap things decently, so he's not boned if he is, for some reason, stuck in melee. How does Mystic Ranger seem, then, since it starts at level 3? I think Hunter's Mercy, I think it is, is a great spell, and such. Any ideas on what to do after LV 10 or so?

I thought this was low magic so I didn't suggest this but if you're allowing it, Mystic Ranger is amazing. Hunter's Mercy has a natural continuation in Deepwood Sniper PRC. Mystic Ranger is amazing if it's game. A non-caster Mounted Archer can compete with other non-casters just fine but magic definitely adds a whole new dimension to the whole deal.


So, what good animals are there, then?

*shrug* Most manners of canines, basically Dire Anything, various felines and ursines; and a page from Eberron Halflings, of course Dinosaurs. There's a good number of different great mounts.


And how would one make low-level mongols for mooks?

Dex > Str > Wis > Con > Int > Cha Fighter/Ranger; maybe Ranger 2/Fighter 1 or so (more levels of Fighter as desired). Give them Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery and the free Rapid Shot from Ranger. If they're humans, Improved Mounted Archery. Obviously with Light Warhorses with light bardings of some kind, light armor & Mw. Composite Longbows. A small band of mercenaries under this chassis terrorized my PCs who were crossing great plains in one low-magic campaign. Ranger-levels are obviously used to max the key skills, especially Spot.

[John Campbell]

I'm currently playing a half-orc mounted archer (with a very deliberately Mongol feel) in a 3.5/Pathfinder hybrid game. My build goes something like:

1: Ranger 1 (Champion of the Wild), Mounted Combat
2: Barbarian 1 (CC Wolf Totem)
3: Ranger 2, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot*
4: Ranger 3, Endurance*
5: Ranger 4, wolf animal companion, Boon Companion (or Natural Bond), Precise Shot**
6: Ranger 5
7: Ranger 6, wolf levels to Large, becomes rideable, Deadly Aim, Improved Precise Shot*
8: Ranger 7
9: Ranger 8, Ride-By Attack, Manyshot**
10: Ranger 9
11: Barbarian 2, Uncanny Dodge, Ferocious Mount rage power, Spirited Charge
12: Ranger 10, Pinpoint Targeting*
13: Ranger 11, Trick Riding, Improved Rapid Shot**
14: Ranger 12
15: Ranger 13, Mounted Skirmisher
16: Ranger 14, Far Shot*, Improved Favored Enemy**
17: Ranger 15, Power Attack
18: Ranger 16
19: Ranger 17, Combat Reflexes
20: Ranger 18, Shot on the Run*

* Ranger bonus feat
** Champion of the Wild bonus feat

The last couple of general feats are still kind of up in the air... we'll see what I really want when I get there. The bonus feats are pretty well tacked down... I run out of options if I don't do it like that.

Ride, Survival, Perception, Handle Animal, and Stealth are maxed, and I've got at least a few ranks in most of my other class skills (notably excepting Spellcraft, which wouldn't really make sense because I traded away my spellcasting for moar dakka archery feats), including Craft (bowmaking) (and I talked my DM into allowing me to collect broken arrows and recycle them as the 1/3rd-cost materials necessary for crafting replacements) and a couple other Craft skills.

The Barbarian levels are mostly because I think that half-orcs that can't rage are Wrong. Also, Uncanny Dodge and the first rage power. Ferocious Mount allows me to split rage rounds with my mount. CC Wolf Totem trades the fast movement for an extra +2 to hit when flanking. It's nowhere near as good as Lion Totem, and usually probably not as good as the fast movement it trades away, but the DM wouldn't allow Lion Totem, and I figured in most cases I'm either going to be mounted, or have a built-in flanker hanging around, so the flank bonus is probably better than +10' movement for me. Also, I'm Baiark Naur - Wolf Clan.

Note no Mounted Archery feat. You can make ranged full attacks without penalty while your mount is single-moving even without it, and it's easy enough to pimp out a mount's movement (my wolf's single move is 80') that I don't think it's really worth the feat to halve the penalty on the rare occasions you have to move faster than that. I rarely even bother counting squares when my wolf is moving on the battle map.

Speaking of pimping out the mount... the animal companion gets feats, too. I took a wolf, because it's kind of thematic for the character, and they do explicitly grow to Large in Pathfinder (also, a dire wolf is strong enough to carry a 6'9", 320-pound half-orc and his gear in light load, which horses aren't), but you can have a rideable animal companion from Ranger 4 if you get a horse instead.

My wolf's progression looks like:

1 HD: Skill Focus (Perception) (default wolf feat... there are better options, but I didn't feel like arguing with the DM about my ability to change it)
3 HD: Run
4 HD: +1 Int (Opens up better feat/skill options, creature becomes basically sapient and able to understand a language, so you're not limited by tricks. This may disqualify it as an animal companion in 3.5 - it's not entirely clear - but it doesn't in Pathfinder.)
5 HD: Powerful Charge
7 HD: Fleet of Foot (charge around corners!)
9 HD: Power Attack
11 HD: Improved Overrun
13 HD: Greater Overrun
15 HD: Charge Through

Again, that last feat chain is still subject to change. I don't need to decide for a couple more levels. My original plan had been to go for Awesome Blow, but Pathfinder made it suck. I may give him Combat Reflexes and Hold The Line instead. I get charged a lot, and having my wolf knock them on their butts before they get their attack at me would be nice. I'm still trying to work out a way to get him Improved/Greater Trip, because, combined with the Trip special ability that wolves get, a quirk in the AoO rules would let him juggle people.

My original 3.5-only build involved a Beastmaster dip to make my animal companion not completely suck, and Wild Plains Outrider as far as it goes to get the "full attack when mount single-moves" thing that Pathfinder provides with Trick Riding + Mounted Skirmisher. Then... maybe Wolflord, or more Beastmaster, just to keep the animal companion progression up. Pathfinder greatly improved Ranger, though... I don't have to keep prestiging out to keep my wolf advancing fast enough to be hanging out around me, and I get even more archery feats.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Human Fighter 4 makes a capable mounted archer. Get Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Mounted Combat, and Mounted Archery. Use a composite longbow and light armor and ride a light warhorse (Magebred for 70 ft. speed). If the horse single-moves every round you take no penalty to attack rolls, or -2 if it double moves, or -4 if it's running. It shouldn't ever have to do more than a double move to keep you well out of your enemies' reach, and hopefully you can get away with it only single-moving every round so you take only the -2 for Rapid Shot. As an NPC opponent, I'd give them three of each potions of Protection from Arrows, Cat's Grace, and Cure Moderate Wounds, and make an opponent only use one of each against the PCs, and of course they would be encountered out in the open.

For a PC, maybe use something like (Unarmed) Swordsage 1/ Soulknife 2/ Swordsage 2/ Soulbow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2), and consider picking up TWF since you can fire Mind Arrows with each hand. Get the Lucky (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#lucky) property at Soulbow 2 so every arrow you fire that initially misses gets one reroll. Pick up more Swordsage levels at appropriate times for choice maneuvers and stances, considering Soulbow should increase your initiator level at every level as standard for prestige classes (ToB p39). It would be a bit feat-intensive considering you'll want Adaptive Style and Mounted Combat/Archery, but two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) and Human or Strongheart Halfling will help greatly. Use Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) to get an above-average mount, such as a Dire Bat or Dire Eagle (RoS) at 7th level.

[Little Brother]

I thought this was low magic so I didn't suggest this but if you're allowing it, Mystic Ranger is amazing. Hunter's Mercy has a natural continuation in Deepwood Sniper PRC. Mystic Ranger is amazing if it's game. A non-caster Mounted Archer can compete with other non-casters just fine but magic definitely adds a whole new dimension to the whole deal.I believe low magic was the wrong term. The conditions(not my idea, for the record) were any casty-people had to be half-caster-ish. So Pally/Hexblade/Divine Mind through Bard/PsyWar. Also restrictions on magicy-gear and such.


*shrug* Most manners of canines, basically Dire Anything, various felines and ursines; and a page from Eberron Halflings, of course Dinosaurs. There's a good number of different great mounts.Sweet. He's gonna be happy.


Dex > Str > Wis > Con > Int > Cha Fighter/Ranger; maybe Ranger 2/Fighter 1 or so (more levels of Fighter as desired). Give them Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery and the free Rapid Shot from Ranger. If they're humans, Improved Mounted Archery. Obviously with Light Warhorses with light bardings of some kind, light armor & Mw. Composite Longbows. A small band of mercenaries under this chassis terrorized my PCs who were crossing great plains in one low-magic campaign. Ranger-levels are obviously used to max the key skills, especially Spot.Awesome. Mind if I steal this?

And am I correct that there is some way to get Wis to ranged damage, or something? I know he will be able to take Deadeye(The good one, not the Compendium one), but the party contains, so far, a Crusader, a probable warblade, and a possible PsyWar, and damage will be needed to keep up, and we're gonna be wanting wisdom for spells.

And I just realized that Mystic Rangers don't get pets. We will be needing the Wild Cohort.

[ericgrau]

It's a DC 5 ride check to guide a mount with your knees so you can use both hands for your bow and full attack while moving. Since it's a skill check you can auto-pass with a +4 modifier, even if you roll a 1. Besides that and general mount stuff, you can pretty much slap on any archer build you want.

[Randomguy]

If you want a flying mount, you could try a few levels of beast heart adept. That way you can get a magical beast companion like a giant owl. I suppose you could just take leadership and get a giant owl/giant eagle cohort though, with the appropriate cohort LA.

Did anyone suggest order of the bow initiate from complete warrior? The capstone lets you apply precision based damage from other classes at any distance, and it has it's own precision based damage that already applies at any distance.

[Eldariel]

Awesome. Mind if I steal this?

Go ahead. That's kinda why I posted it. :smallwink:


And am I correct that there is some way to get Wis to ranged damage, or something? I know he will be able to take Deadeye(The good one, not the Compendium one), but the party contains, so far, a Crusader, a probable warblade, and a possible PsyWar, and damage will be needed to keep up, and we're gonna be wanting wisdom for spells.

And I just realized that Mystic Rangers don't get pets. We will be needing the Wild Cohort.

There are...some ways. Most of them not practical tho. The best one is probably Shiba Protector from Oriental Adventures; it requires 3 feats but gives Wis to Attack and Damage on level 1. Rest of the class is pretty uninspiring but that alone is worth it. Except you'll be starved for feats and it requires like...Expertise, Alertness & Iron Will. So meh. You could get Iron Will from Otyugh Hole but eh...

Soulbow gets it too but I don't think that's what we're looking for here.

[Little Brother]

Go ahead. That's kinda why I posted it. :smallwink:Ah, thanks.


There are...some ways. Most of them not practical tho. The best one is probably Shiba Protector from Oriental Adventures; it requires 3 feats but gives Wis to Attack and Damage on level 1. Rest of the class is pretty uninspiring but that alone is worth it. Except you'll be starved for feats and it requires like...Expertise, Alertness & Iron Will. So meh. You could get Iron Will from Otyugh Hole but eh...

Soulbow gets it too but I don't think that's what we're looking for hereWhat is this Expertise? And Iron Will and Alertness? Yuck. I would only take those if I was going Ur-Priest. Well, the ones it needs, anyways. Still, we've got Dex to damage(the old Dead-eye), so that seems fine.

So, the final problem: What to do after level 10? And, out of idle curiosity, can Natural Bond work with Wild Cohort? It says you can swap it out, but you're a druid-3 levels.

[Eldariel]

Ah, thanks.

What is this Expertise? And Iron Will and Alertness? Yuck. I would only take those if I was going Ur-Priest. Well, the ones it needs, anyways. Still, we've got Dex to damage(the old Dead-eye), so that seems fine.

Expertise is the 3.0 name for Combat Expertise (OA is a 3.0 source).


So, the final problem: What to do after level 10? And, out of idle curiosity, can Natural Bond work with Wild Cohort? It says you can swap it out, but you're a druid-3 levels.

Well, you're the DM. Can it? I suggest so. And I already suggested: Deepwood Sniper [Masters of the Wild]. It's a 10 level PRC that's relatively easy to enter and increases your critical multiplier among other things. Overall an excellent class for someone with access to Hunter's Mercy.

[Daftendirekt]

Combat Expertise was just called Expertise in 3.0.

Also, would getting Alertness from your Familiar count? Just take Obtain Familiar to get it AND all the rest a familiar entails.

EDIT: half ninja'd.

[ericgrau]

C
Also, would getting Alertness from your Familiar count? Just take Obtain Familiar to get it AND all the rest a familiar entails.



Alertness (Ex)
While a familiar is within arm’s reach, the master gains the Alertness feat.

By the way it's worded, yes. However every time your familiar leaves you you'd lose alertness and any abilities that require alertness.

[Little Brother]

Expertise is the 3.0 name for Combat Expertise (OA is a 3.0 source).Ah, gotcha.


Well, you're the DM. Can it? I suggest so. And I already suggested: Deepwood Sniper [Masters of the Wild]. It's a 10 level PRC that's relatively easy to enter and increases your critical multiplier among other things. Overall an excellent class for someone with access to Hunter's Mercy.I was talking about RAW. I like taking notes for usage later. How do you think it would affect balance. That's a better question. I will probably allow it, until proven otherwise, but having an answer by RAW/Obvious RAI is better than a house-rule thingy.

And Deepwood Sniper seems kinda...eh. Anything with more of a kick behind it?

And, yeah, if we were going to go that way, might as well just do that and take Theurgic Companion, or whatever. Get the cohort to also qualify as a familiar.

[Eldariel]

Ah, gotcha.

I was talking about RAW. I like taking notes for usage later. How do you think it would affect balance. That's a better question. I will probably allow it, until proven otherwise, but having an answer by RAW/Obvious RAI is better than a house-rule thingy.

Well, by RAW it's an iffy case since neither is written with each other in mind. I think it might work; there are some passing references to your "effective Druid level". Then again, it lists some differences to the Druid AC and can be gotten in addition so eh, who knows?


And Deepwood Sniper seems kinda...eh. Anything with more of a kick behind it?

x5 crit damage + Hunter's Mercy is pretty efficient. Other options, ehh; they aren't really made with damage in mind. Best far as damage goes is picking up Knowledge Devotion and Ranged Weapon Mastery and maxing those out. And improving crits; that's all the classes do, really. Or getting extra attacks; Warblade would do that. Barbarian would also give you an extra attack and Targeteer Fighter definitely has some real nice options.

Order of the Bow Initiate & Weapon Master from Sword & Fist have some decent options but OotBI is mostly about Ranged Sneak Attack which is limited to 30' and Weapon Master is a pain to qualify for (not to mention, probably worse than Deepwood Sniper for critting). Peerless Archer gets Power Shot as its biggest ability but Deadly Aim is that and then some. Few levels of Cragtop Archer [Races of Stone] is probably good but that doesn't give you anything but ease of spotting things, so...


And, yeah, if we were going to go that way, might as well just do that and take Theurgic Companion, or whatever. Get the cohort to also qualify as a familiar.

[Gotterdammerung]

My favorite "mount" for an archer is a flying carpet xD. It doesn't cost any actions to make it move so you can full attack with your bow. And it isn't technically a "mount" so you don't take mounted archery penalties (altho i usually take them anyway just to be fair about it).

[candycorn]

Oh, the ridiculous spot rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168787) also make life difficult for archers in general. Your average peasant would be lucky to notice somebody forty yards away.

In fairness, in conditions that allow hide (cover/concealment), the average person in real life would be lucky to notice someone 120 feet away. That's standing by a goalpost, staring across a football field, and trying to see someone hiding behind the goalpost on the other side.

If someone is not hiding, then you see them at that distance, no roll required.

[Incanur]

If someone is not hiding, then you see them at that distance, no roll required.

I wish this were true, but I don't think it is. Consider that you've got to make a spot check - and a hard one at that - to see even a forest fire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm) at 200-1200 feet.

[ericgrau]

Typically the spot/hide rules say it is so, with some rare things that are naturally hard to see as exceptions.

[Eldariel]

Typically the spot/hide rules say it is so, with some rare things that are naturally hard to see as exceptions.

Like forest fires :smallsigh:

[ericgrau]

No complaint there, that's the RAW example implied, but if someone is standing in plain sight on level ground without so much as brush in the way then you see them. No roll. Spot says it's usually to find hiding creatures, or sometimes things that are unintentionally difficult to see. If you roll against everything, then that's not usually against hiding creatures and you're doing something wrong. If you sometimes make rolls against things that aren't intentionally hiding, then that's fine.

[Incanur]

No complaint there, that's the RAW example implied, but if someone is standing in plain sight on level ground without so much as brush in the way then you see them. No roll.

Where do the rules say this? Having spot checks to start an encounter suggests otherwise. Are you saying those check only happen if one side is using the hide skill?

[John Campbell]

There is also a Spot DC listed to "Notice something large in plain sight". (DC 0.)

[Little Brother]

So, how important is Wisdom? I know he's gonna need at least 15, but a level can turn a 14 into a 15, so how important is it?

As a human, which he's actually probably going to be, he decided he didn't like the halflings being Sicilian mobsters who control most rivers, he's probably going to go STR 12, DEX 16, Con 14 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha 10. That seem good?

And then Skills: Ride is obvious, as is Spot, but what else?

Thanks.

[Eldariel]

So, how important is Wisdom? I know he's gonna need at least 15, but a level can turn a 14 into a 15, so how important is it?

As a human, which he's actually probably going to be, he decided he didn't like the halflings being Sicilian mobsters who control most rivers, he's probably going to go STR 12, DEX 16, Con 14 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha 10. That seem good?

Mystic Rangers generally still rely on their martial prowess so enough Wis to cast their spells is all he wants. Obviously it boosts his weak save and improves his Spot so it's a good secondary priority.

As for those stats, if you want damage at long ranges you need Strength for high Str Composite Longbows so I'd definitely go at least 14 Str (at the price of Int if necessary).


And then Skills: Ride is obvious, as is Spot, but what else?

Thanks.

I dunno, Listen is always useful. Handle Animal & Knowledge: Nature are obvious. Hide might come in handy when you aren't mounted. Tumble is again useful when not mounted, as well as Balance. Knowledges are always good and if you're a Ranger anyways, there's always Survival.

[Lord.Sorasen]

My favorite "mount" for an archer is a flying carpet xD. It doesn't cost any actions to make it move so you can full attack with your bow. And it isn't technically a "mount" so you don't take mounted archery penalties (altho i usually take them anyway just to be fair about it).

You can always full attack with a bow when using mounted archery.

[ericgrau]

Where do the rules say this? Having spot checks to start an encounter suggests otherwise. Are you saying those check only happen if one side is using the hide skill?

What page is that on in the DMG btw? I've been trying to find it and IIRC it's DMG-only (not SRD).

[ericgrau]

So, how important is Wisdom? I know he's gonna need at least 15, but a level can turn a 14 into a 15, so how important is it?

As a human, which he's actually probably going to be, he decided he didn't like the halflings being Sicilian mobsters who control most rivers, he's probably going to go STR 12, DEX 16, Con 14 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha 10. That seem good?

And then Skills: Ride is obvious, as is Spot, but what else?

Thanks.
IMO get a 13 wis and boost it with a +2 item later. Don't waste your leveling +1 on it. More would be nice for a higher will save and skills, but only after you're sure your dex/con/str are as good as you can get them. I don't know how fast a mystic ranger progresses so a 12 wis with a +4 item might be feasible as long as you can get the +2 item before you need to cast level 3 spells and as long as you can easily afford the +4 item before you hit level 5 spells.

Ya otherwise those ability scores are good. Knowledge (nature) is pretty good for identifying weaknesses of a wide variety of monsters. Survival is essential for wilderness based challenges. Concentration is maybe ok if you ever get stuck within melee of something. Everything else is kinda nice, depending on the campaign and your play style. Pick your flavor and/or talk to the DM.