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View Full Version : An all in one, strong tier 3 Fighter overhaul – short and to the point



nonsi
2011-10-07, 04:40 PM
.
Before presenting this fix, I’d like to raise a few questions (and answer them):

Q1. What do we want Mr. Fighter fix to be?
A1.1. Customizable.
A1.2. Useful in as many combat and non-combat situations as possible.

Q2. What do we want Mr. Fighter fix to have?
A2.1. Battlefield mobility.
A2.2. Battlefield control.
A2.3. Options. Lots of option – build-wise and execution-wise.

Q3. What do we want Mr. Fighter fix to be able to do?
A3.1. Kick his opponents’ ass.
A3.2. Have a decent shot of living to kickass another day.

Q4. What tier do we want Mr. Fighter fix to be?
A4.1. I believe the ideal is a strong tier 3.


So I was asking myself why, even though there are quite a few hundreds of Fighter fixes published on the most popular homebrew forums, people always come up with their own versions instead of taking an existing one.
My conclusion is that all of them present a certain archetype subject to the homebrewer’s taste at that moment.
So, in order to create something that everyone could find useful, a Fighter fix needs 4 things before anything else:
1. A solid foundation, not constraint to a specific warrior concept.
2. Extreme customizability.
3. Extreme versatility.
4. Simplicity of concept, built and usage.



Given the above insights, here’s my proposal:


Phase I: Define the Fighter as follows:

HD: d12.

BAB: Good.

Good saves: Fort.

Class Skills: Balance, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (dungeoneering, geography, history, local, nature, nobility & royalty), Listen, Martial Lore, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, Swim and Tumble.

Skills points / level: 6.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light and medium armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (not including tower shields).


{table=head] Level |
Art of War | Warrior's Edge |
Special | Weapon Training

1 | Warcraft, ‪Learning Ease |
+1 | Battle Clarity * (Ref saves)‬ | 2 Weapons

2 | Bonus Feat | | |

3 | Warcraft | | Battle Ardor * (crit) |

4 | Bonus Feat |
+2 | | 3rd Weapon

5 | Warcraft | | Battlefield Insight |

6 | Bonus Feat | | |

7 | Warcraft |
+3 | Battle Cunning * (dmg) |

8 | Bonus Feat | | | 4th Weapon

9 | Warcraft | | Veteran's Grit |

10 | Bonus Feat, Combat Ingenuity |
+4 | | |

11 | Warcraft | | Battle Skill * (opposed checks) |

12 | Bonus Feat | | | 5th Weapon

13 | Warcraft |
+5 | Battlefield Brilliance |

14 | Bonus Feat | | |

15 | Warcraft | | Battle Mastery * (AoOs) |

16 | Bonus Feat |
+6 | | 6th Weapon

17 | Warcraft | | Stance Mastery * (see Phase II) |

18 | Bonus Feat | | |

19 | Warcraft |
+7 | Battlefield Genius |

20 | Bonus Feat, Master of Warfare | | | 7th Weapon
[/table]

Weapon Training (Ex)
A fighter stars his career with 2 weapons to which he gains Weapon Focus, free of charge.
At the indicated levels, he may select additional weapons that gain this bonus.
Any weapon a fighter chooses for weapon training gains the indicated bonuses in the Warrior's Edge column to attack, damage and opposed checks(trip, sunder, disarm etc). These bonuses stack with the bonuses given for Battle Ardor, Battle Cunning and Battle Mastery when applicable.
Special: A Fighter with Superior Unarmed Strike can choose unarmed strike as one of his weapons of choice.
Note: In favor of this streamlined approach, Weapon Specialization, Melee/Range Weapon Mastery, Greater Focus/Specialization and Weapon Supremacy no longer exist.
For those that adopt weapon groups: Weapons associated with one of a fighter's weapons of choice gain 1/2 Warrior's Edge bonuses, rounded down (starting from +0).

* Same as Warblade, but none of these abilities are associated with Int bonuses anymore. Instead, they're associated with the values presented in the Warrior's Edge column.
Note: It makes no sense to me for every fighter to be a potential Einstein. The 6 skill points / level allow Int to be a dump stat. and this rule makes it possible for a fighter to be decent and improve his combat prowess even when dumping his mental stats. Also this rule prevents stat augmentation abuse (which can get pretty insane).


‪Warcraft (Ex)
Throughout his career, a fighter's training grants him access to many combat advantages other characters cannot grasp.
These abilities are taken from the more martially inclined official classes as follows:

{table=head] Source Class | Associated Feature | Minimum Level + Other Requirements | Notes
Barbarian | | |
| Rage | 1 | while raging, you gain 10ft speed with the notable restrictions of armor & load
| Uncanny Dodge | 3
| Improved Uncanny Dodge | 5, Uncanny Dodge
| Greater Rage | 11, Rage | during rage, you gain DR 2/–. This value increases by +1 with each additional 3HD past 11
| Indomitable Will | 15, Rage |
| Tireless Rage | 17, Greater Rage |
| Mighty Rage | 19, Greater Rage | your rage associated DR now also applies as energy resistance vs. all energy types
| | |
Crusader | | |
| Steely Resolve | 1 | +10 no sooner than level 5, +15 no sooner than level 9 and so on
| Furious Counterstrike | 3, Steely Resolve |
| Zealous Surge | 3 | I’d change it to once between rests, because it’s not important enough to warrant rest |
| Mettle | 5 |
| Smite | 7 | 2 / day no sooner than level 13, 3 / day no sooner than level 19
| | |
Knight | | |
| Bulwark of defense | 3 |
| Armor mastery (medium) | 5 |
| Shield Ally | 7 |
| Armor mastery (heavy) | 9, Armor mastery (medium) , Heavy Armor Prof. |
| Improved Shield Ally| 11, Shield Ally |
| | |
Ranger | | |
| Swift Tracker | 7 |
| Evasion | 9 |
| | |
Samurai + Zhentarim Soldier + special | | |
| Power Intimidation| 3 | you gain Skill Focus: Intimidate. You may use your Str bonus instead of Cha bonus when making Intimidate checks
| Extended intimidation| 5 |
| Staredown | 7 |
| Swift Demoralization | 9 |
| Mass Staredown | 11, Staredown |
| Improved Staredown | 13, Staredown |
| Frightful Preasence | 17, Mass Staredown , Improved Staredown |
| | |
Swashbuckler | | |
| Acrobatic Charge | 7 |
| Improved Flanking | 9 |
| Weakening Critical | 13 |
| Wounding Critical | 17 |
| | |
Swordsage | | |
| Discipline Focus| 5 | Defensive or offensive, 2 no sooner than level 9, 3 no sooner than level 13 and so on|
| Dual Boost | 19 |
| | |
Other Features | | |
| Pack Mule (http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Fighter,_Tome_(3.5e_Class)#Pack_Mule) | 3 |
| Improved Delay (http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Fighter,_Tome_(3.5e_Class)#Improved_Delay) | 7 |
| Lunging Attacks (http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Fighter,_Tome_(3.5e_Class)#Lunging_Attacks) | 11 |
[/table]

You may instead decide to take a Fighter bonus feat and a combat associated skill trick.
In all cases, you must meet all the prerequisites.
You may also use Warcraft to boost your Ref or Will (or both) saves from poor to good.

Learning Ease‬ (Ex)
For the purposes of qualifying for Fighter feats (gained by either class progression or character progression), you treat your ability scores as though they were 2 points higher than they actually are at 1st level.
At level 6 and each 5 class-levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +1 (max +5 at level 16).

Weapon Training (Ex)
A fighter starts his career at 1st level with a single Weapon Focus.
At 5th level and every 4 levels thereafter, a fighter gains an additional, cost free Weapon Focus.
Furthermore, for each Weapon Focus gained by this feature (but not for Weapon Focus gained via feats), a fighter gains all the benefits of the Weapon Focus tree feats to which he qualifies according to his class level (Weapon Supremacy limited to a single weapon).

Bonus Feat (Ex)
Instead of gaining a Fighter bonus feat, you may trade it to gain ANY Fighter specific ACF (no sooner than the minimum indicated level and subject to all prereqs).
A fighter may invest up to 3 feats per 10 levels (up to 3 at levels 1-10, up to 6 at levels 11-20, and so on) in Martial Study.
The maneuvers rules are as follows:
- Allow access to all official schools except Desert Wind & Shadow Hand.
- Use the fighter's level as his initiator level.
- All known maneuvers are always redies.
- Use the Warblade's maneuvers recovery rules.

Battlefield Insight (Ex)
You may use an immediate action without sacrificing your allotment of swift action during your turn.

Veteran's Grit (Ex)
At 9th level and on, you no longer automatically fail a saving throw on a roll of 1.
Furthermore, even after succumbing to attacks, spell effects or supernatural abilities that cause conditions, you’re able to partially or totally shrug them off.
When you’re subjected to one of the following conditions, replace it with the condition one cell to the right:

{table=head] Condition | Becomes... | Becomes... | Becomes... | Becomes...
Cowering | Panicked | Frightened | Shaken | None
Paralyzed | Stunned | Dazed | Dazzled | None
| Blown away | Knocked Down | Checked | None
| Fascinated | Dazed | Dazzled | None
| | Blinded | Dazzled | None
| | Nauseated | Sickened | None
| | Exhausted | Fatigued | None
| | | Slowed | Entangled
| | | Ability Drained | Ability Damaged
[/table]


Combat Ingenuity (Ex)
At 10th level, you’re so competent at warfare that you can, to a certain degree, reinvent yourself during combat.
You may, as a swift action, gain the benefits of a single feat you never took for duration of 1 round.
There are 3 restrictions to this ability:
1. You must meet all the prerequisites of a feat to harness its benefits "on the fly".
2. The feat must have the "may be selected as a Fighter's bonus feat" descriptor.
3. You haven't used the said feat during the last hour.

Battlefield Brilliance (Ex)
You gain an extra swift or immediate action (but not both) every combat round.
As an immediate action, you can make an extra 5ft step, but at an expense of both swift actions you'd otherwise be entitled to during your next round.
As a swift action, provided you haven't used up your immediate action prior to your turn, you can make an additional move action during your turn.

Battlefield Genius (Ex)
As an immediate action, you can make an extra move action, but at an expense of both swift actions you'd otherwise be entitled to during your next round.
As a swift action, provided you haven't used up your immediate action prior to your turn, you can make an additional standard action during your turn.

Master of Warfare (Ex)
Your combat ingenuity ability may now grant any 2 feats simultaneously or any 1 warcraft ability.
Furthermore, you may select any feat with this ability as opten as you like with no "cooldown" time restriction.





Phase II: also apply the following changes:

Allow retraining of a maneuver/Warcraft/Feat whenever the fighter doesn’t get one, but only for an ability that doesn’t serve as a prereq to any of the fighter’s current character features.




Phase III: Let the player customize his kickass fighter as he sees fit.








So, is this class powerful?
Hell yes.

Is it too much?
Compared to spellcasters – hell no. It has no flight, phase or teleportation powers.

Kenneth
2011-10-07, 05:31 PM
Not to shabby, If i hadn't already finish work on my fighter for 3rd ed ( it only took umm.. 7-ish years I think -really 2- if you don't count the time it took between the last version to when I thought up Combat Focus)

this would definately be the fighter that i would play.


Could you do me a favor though and peruse my fighter to tell me what 'tier' it is in? I myself have never really cared or played with poeple who were focused on 'tier' so..
here it is
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216996

nonsi
2011-10-07, 06:19 PM
Not to shabby, If i hadn't already finish work on my fighter for 3rd ed ( it only took umm.. 7-ish years I think -really 2- if you don't count the time it took between the last version to when I thought up Combat Focus)

this would definately be the fighter that i would play.

Don't feel too bad about the time waste.
Nailing it (a powerful tier 3 - out of the box) was harder than words can describe. I wrote more than 100 fixes that went to the garbage disposal without ever making it to the boards.
It was not until 24 hours ago that the Warcraft inspiration hit me. Combining that with some of the stuff from my dream Fighter fix (which is heavily based on quite a few house rules, so it would be of little value to others as a stand-alone class fix) that was inspired by Zeigander's Warlord, I finally managed to pull it off.



Could you do me a favor though and peruse my fighter to tell me what 'tier' it is in? I myself have never really cared or played with poeple who were focused on 'tier' so..
here it is
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216996

Seems to me like more often than not it would be a solid tier-3, but poor choices could keep it bound to tier 4. It all depends no how much mobility and battlefield control it will end up with.

3 things pop at a glance:
1. You didn't quite nail the numbers with the average saves. It sould be +1/+1/+2/+2/+3/+3/+3/+4/+4/+5/+5/+5/+6/+6/+7/+7/+7/+8/+8/+9 (someone else did the math not too long ago and it adds up).
2. The 'overwritten tactics' rule makes a lot of sense, but I couldn't figure from the table column how many tactics you get of what (seems like there's a secondary and tertiary advancement there, but it's not quite clear how it goes).
3. This is the first time I see someone rewriting maneuvers to such extent for a single class. Why did you feel the need to assign the class specific maneuvers list rather than stating disciplines?


As a side note: Mobile Combatant should be a house rule rather than a class feature.

All in all, a decent class.
I have a few issues with it, but they're based on personal taste, so it's pointless to mention them.

Ziegander
2011-10-07, 06:33 PM
So... what we have here is a Fighter/Warblade gestalt that's also gestalted with any other single class it wants + moar feats and moar class features on top of all that. Oh, and moar skills. And the Warblade class features it gets are better than the ones that the Warblade itself gets.

Is that right or am I misinterpreting this? Because the presentation is somewhat hard to follow, so I may not be getting it exactly.

kalminos
2011-10-07, 06:41 PM
My thoughts upon looking at this build were one of elation and joyousness, and the words "TOO MUCH POWER, I CANNOT CONTAIN IT!" come to mind, as this seems like the most powerful non instant-win (literally) martial class I have ever laid mine eyes upon. I find it may come into use in a game where the rest of the party are all full casters or such.

I might guess this was tier two, but I'm not a knowledgeable brewer. I await the comments that are to come, and I may use this in a game I'm in right now. (where the rest of the party is a cleric, a artificer, and now a sorcerer.)

nonsi
2011-10-07, 07:04 PM
So... what we have here is a Fighter/Warblade gestalt that's also gestalted with any other single class it wants + moar feats and moar class features on top of all that. Oh, and moar skills. And the Warblade class features it gets are better than the ones that the Warblade itself gets.

Is that right or am I misinterpreting this? Because the presentation is somewhat hard to follow, so I may not be getting it exactly.

That's right.
The Warblade-exclusive features should've been the Fighter's from the get go. That's the meaning of build-independent combat superiority the Fighter was supposed to have.
Battlefield Insight/Brilliance/Genius provide the required mobility and action economy (credits to you for the inspiration), just sans clunky mechanics (which I gladly adopt in my HRs, for reasons well explained in them).
Warcraft is used for implementing the archetype a player would desire (rager/zealot/defender/striker/daredevil or whatever), or mix & match for some more versatility but at the expense of not reaching the cherry on top. And only an idiot would use it too much (is there an opposite to 'abuse'?) to gain more feats (features are usually stronger).
And the new option to trade feats for ACFs at any point simply give more latitude to take an ACF at one's convenience.
As for the maneuvers - they fill in the required kick without the need to min-max/cheesecake (I'd go as far as saying munchkin) like crazy.
Now you can take a single class and tailor-make it into what you envision it to be without planning 15 levels ahead.

Does it mean this class would not need anything from cheesy PrC to be better at what IT is supposed to be doing better than any other class in the game?
Heavens forbid, Yes. Definitely.


>> "And the Warblade class features it gets are better than the ones that the Warblade itself gets."
This statement eludes my understanding.
For a noncaster, between Int, Wis and Cha - the choice is a no-brainer. Int trumps every time because of the extra skill points. I just presented other possibilities for the sake of making sense.
And with enough levels of experience, a veteran should be able to compensate for what otherwise should be dump stats for a warrior (hence dealing with MAD - at least in the midhigh levels).

The Underlord
2011-10-07, 07:06 PM
1. Merge the current table together into one special column
2. Put its save and BAB(I assume it is good) in the table.
3. Put the manuever and stance progression on the table
That should help with the table. Warcraft seems a bit too powerful only because you can literally be any of the "warrior" classes and also be something else. Also there does not seem to any level limit on it so you can pick capstones of the classes at 1st level. edit: computer was loading when you posted. you say you can be any archetype, the problem is that why would anyone NOT take this class? If you can be any melee character archetypes but better there is no reason to not take this class. that is a major problem. It doesnt note if it scales so if choose rage you will never get more. I thinks thats good but that might not be what you intended.

Ziegander
2011-10-07, 07:11 PM
Battlefield Insight (Ex)
You may use an immediate action without sacrificing your allotment of swift action during your turn.

Battlefield Brilliance (Ex)
You gain an extra swift or immediate action (but not both) every combat round.

Battlefield Genius (Ex)
If you haven’t used an immediate action before your turn, during your turn you may spend both swift actions you’re entitled to, to gain an extra standard action.

Nonsi, if your immediate actions don't prevent you from using your swift actions, and if you get an extra immediate/swift action per round, then why does Battlefield Genius require you to have not used your immediate action?


I might guess this was tier two, but I'm not a knowledgeable brewer.

No, it's not Tier 2. This is probably the most common misinterpretation of the Tiers that I come across. The only measurement that matters for Tier 2 is raw power. This class doesn't have access to campaign breakers, thus it cannot possibly be Tier 2. I'm not going to attempt the analysis, but I wouldn't be surprised if you could gestalt every single class of Tier 3 and below and you wouldn't budge Tier 2.

nonsi
2011-10-07, 07:18 PM
1. Merge the current table together into one special column
2. Put its save and BAB(I assume it is good) in the table.
3. Put the manuever and stance progression on the table
That should help with the table. Warcraft seems a bit too powerful only because you can literally be any of the "warrior" classes and also be something else. Also there does not seem to any level limit on it so you can pick capstones of the classes at 1st level.


1. Merging it all together would make it punishing on the eyes. The Monk has more columns, so I see no problem with separating categorically.
2. BAB is good, of course. Tanks.
3. This needless effort on my part would bring no new information, so I allow myself to skip it (sorry, but you can always quote-copy and edit to your heart's content).
4. I don't see Warcraft as too powerful, given non of the archetypes it emulates are decent enough. Furthermore, you can only gain 1 feature with Warcraft, not a collection of level associated features (a fighter would need to get to level 5 to gain the benefits the official Barbarian provides by 2nd level).

>> Also there does not seem to any level limit on it so you can pick capstones of the classes at 1st level
You missed this:
"You may select ANY extraordinary “Warrior” class feature / ACF (no sooner than the minimum indicated level and subject to all prereqs).".

nonsi
2011-10-07, 07:23 PM
Nonsi, if your immediate actions don't prevent you from using your swift actions, and if you get an extra immediate/swift action per round, then why does Battlefield Genius require you to have not used your immediate action?

So it would have to pay something substantial and plan ahead in order to gain an extra standard action for someone with all this arsenal.
This means that you'll have to capitallize on all of your extras to gain an extra standard astion.

Realms of Chaos
2011-10-07, 07:35 PM
Looking at this fix... it seems a big patchwork of around 5 other fixes that all form a rough new class.

As far as notes/nitpicks, there are a few that may be worth making.

1. You never describe what a warrior class is. Even if you think that it obviously means "every class with full BAB", a definite and restrictive list is still required (or at least preferable) for a single reason.

If your DM is allowing this class, they are already allowing homebrew. This means that so long as you can find a full BAB class anywhere on any forum (or 3rd party source if you want a bit more legitamacy) with a class skill or extraordinary class feature you want, there is a good case for allowing the fighter to take it if there is no list. As we can't know every such ability or every single class, this ability is a HUGE question mark of power.

2. The skills seem pretty darn weird, seeing as a combination of scout skills and all "warrior" skills pretty much makes up every single skill. Why not just allow the fighter to select any 10 or 12 skills to become class skills? Seems a bit neater and allows for the few obscure skills that might not be in a Warrior class to see use. Even if this would allow for some un-fighterly skills, it's not like a game with this class would have too much room for a skill monkey role (see below for more details).

3. By giving the fighter warblade proficiencies, I do believe that you are denying them of proficiency with ranged martial weapons. As your aim is for versatility, perhaps consider switching it back to fighter proficiencies?

4. In your bonus feat section, I'm not sure how I'd like the prospect of trading your 2nd level feat for any fighter alternate class feature. I've seen one or two level 18 fighter ACFs that were actually powered rather appropriately and giving them out at level 2 may not be the wisest thing. Also, it remains unclear how abilities that normally require the sacrifice of multiple feats work.

Seeing as all but 1 fighter ACF in existance (at least that I can think of) involves trading fighter feats anyways, why even include that line? :smallconfused:

5. I see what you are doing with weapon training but I'm not sure that you're getting quite where you need to be. The idea of being specialized in several weapons at the same time is kind of nice.

Unfortunately, none of those abilities (except for maybe combat supremacy) is actually worth anything. Nobody is going to notice the +2 to attack rolls and +4 to damage rolsl that much beyond a slight preference for your favored weapons. Seeing as the Pathfinder Fighter gets better than that (getting higher bonuses and with entire weapon groups), the ability looks kind of tacked on more than anything else.

Combat Supremacy is nice, mind you, but I'm betting that you could think of better weapon improvements than minor numeric boosts (perhaps even selectable from a list). Alternately, this ability could easily be scrapped, shaving an entire column off of your class table and making it more readable (again, more on that later).

Also, there's the small fact that Master of Warfare gives you near full benefit of weapon training for every single weapon other than weapon supremacy (making the other four weapons you chose entirely unimportant).

6. As you're already using maneuvers and are thus embracing a per encounter mindset, why not shift Combat Ingenuity from 1/10 minutes to 1/encounter (which is 1/5 minutes out of battle). The time just seems a random right now.

7. Master of Warfare, more than any other capstone that I have ever seen, seems to subscribe to the "Nobody actually plays at level 20, right?" school of thought. As there are indeed people who do, however, giving them access to (basically) every fighter feat in existance will end up being a headache for everyone involved (especially since allowing homebrew once again allows for a nigh-infinite influx of fighter feats from the internet). While I can understand not planning for homebrew, creating a homebrew class that only functions in a setting where homebrew isn't permitted seems like a bit of a flawed premise. :smallamused:

Also, there is no indication one way or the other as to whether feats that can be taken multiple times can be taken infinite times, though I expect that the ability breaks in some way if it is possible.

Even just using core and the PHB II, there are a lot of feats to keep track and saying that a player has to do a ton of work just to enjoy their capstone might strike others as a bit unfun.

8. The class table looks kind of weird to me. Not necessarily a bad thing but just putting the vital information up top and giving three rows of ability advancement it a bit alien to me. If it's more efficient, though, whatever works. :smallconfused:

9. One of the problems that I see with this and many other fighter fixes is that it turns the frequent comparison of casters vs noncasters into casters vs this and only this. In a campaign with this class, I firmly believe that there isn't room for any non-caster. Even if you invented another martial class of comparable might, this guy would steal all of the other class' best (Ex) abilities AND have good skills AND have excellent hit points AND have full warblade progression. While you've succeeded at making a tier 3 fighter, the only way you were able to do so was by making it so broad that anything other than a caster is a fighter or would be more effective as a fighter (which is kind of ironic, seeing as you need access to a wide variety of other sources and classes to maximize its effectiveness). Not necessarily a bad thing but you might as well call this class "The Noncaster".

nonsi
2011-10-07, 08:29 PM
Thanks Realms. That’s one hell of an “observative” analysis. :cool:

1. Ok. Official materials only, of course. Noted
2. There are actually quite a few that are not in the list. Several Knowledge skills, UMD & UPD, Autohypnosis and most Perform branches. Also, unless I missed something, Disable Device & Forgery are also not included. I can also see nothing that this class would gain from ranks in Concentration, except in very specific cases. It may surprise some, but I really made an effort to avoid stepping on the toes of a possible Rogue or Monk remake.
3. You’re right. Fixed.
4. You’re right again. It’s missing the "(no sooner than the minimum indicated level and subject to all prereqs)". Fixed
5. I was somewhat worried that using the PF bonuses would make it seem like I’m focusing on power boost rather than wide versatility. Furthermore, while the PF weapon groups are certainly an improvement over 3.5, they're not 3.5 official and I tried to uphold the “keep it isolated” agenda. But for anyone who finds it appropriate – by all means, I’m all for it, choosing between weapons and armors as the player sees fit.
6. People have gripes with the vague definition of “encounter”, but I see no problem with your suggestion.
7. Ok. 1) It will have to be a feat that both the player and DM already know. 2) A feat that can be taken multiple times can only be “taken” once (or once more). And, if it takes more than 10 gametime seconds per round to use, you’ve basically forfeited the option (“if by level 20 you’re still stuck there – for that moment you don’t deserve it. Learn how to play!“).
9. I never once said that the Rogue & Monk don’t need the love & attention. You saw my version, so you know. I’m not counting on having similar inspiration for an isolated Rogue or Monk remake anytime soon, but my versions could be a good raw material to work with in that direction.

EDIT: Regarding PF Fighter's Weapon Training, I checked it out and it actually ends a bit weaker than the Weapon Focus tree - both in when the bonuses are gained and how much they amount to (+4 hit & damage vs. +4 hit & +6 damage). These bonuses are free of charge, but that's also the result with this Fighter fix.

nonsi
2011-10-08, 08:07 AM
.
Ok, it occurred to me that something is flawed with the Weapon Training approach.
A 4th level fighter having only a single weapon he’s really good with?
An 8th level fighter having only two weapons he’s really good with?
And then there’s the spiking, at levels 9 and 13, where new weapons suddenly go from nothing to Greater Focus/Spec.

So, to give the Fighter some decent versatility and streamlined weapon training progression, I thought about editing the Weapon Training column as follows:

{table=head] Level | Weapon Training
1 | Weapon Focus: 3 weapons
2 | Weapon Focus: 4th weapon
3 | Weapon Focus: 5th weapon
4 | Weapon Spec.: 1st weapon
5 | Weapon Spec.: 2nd weapon
6 | Weapon Spec.: 3rd weapon
7 | Weapon Spec.: 4th weapon
8 | Greater Focus: 1st weapon, Weapon Mastery: 1st category
9 | Greater Focus: 2nd weapon, Weapon Mastery: 2nd category
10 | Greater Focus: 3rd weapon, Weapon Mastery: 3rd category
11 | Greater Focus: 4th weapon, Weapon Mastery: 4th category
12 | Greater Weapon Specialization
13 | Greater Spec.: 1st weapon
14 | Greater Spec.: 2nd weapon
15 | Greater Spec.: 3rd weapon
16 | Greater Spec.: 4th weapon
17 | Weapon Spec: 5th weapon
18 |
Weapon Supremacy |
19 | Greater Focus: 5th weapon, Weapon Mastery: 5th category
20 | Greater Spec: 5th weapon
[/table]


Your thoughts . . . ?

Maraxus1
2011-10-08, 09:42 AM
The first time I saw the Tier system I thought: Hey, that's nice.

After seeing to much "Tier 2 Overpowered" and "Tier 3 Overpowered" classes (thus classes that lack the flexibility of the higher tiers and use that to justify being overpowered in plain straightforward numbers), I dislike it.

The very first thing I check on every fighter fix is the power boost over the first / first6 / first10 levels. Because if you think, that wizards are better then warrior-type classes you have not seen a 1st level barbarian beating a 1st level wizard unconscious with the wizard's own familiar (not because he lost his greataxe but because he could and thought it would be fun). Likewise he is still a power of the party at level 6 and (if build well) good at level 10.

A fighter fix, that adds significant power on the first 6 levels thus has some minus points from the start.


And this "Warcraft" feature is really ugly. Adding class features without any checking except, that the character's need to be "Warrior-ish"?
Rage at Level 1 might be all fun but then on 3 Swashbuckler's insightful strike, Swordsage's AC Bonus or Paladin's Divine Grace (depending on your attributes), later what about a paladin mount or a ranger's hide in plain sight. This is no good kind of customisability, because it awards you to pick the weirdest combination of the most powerful abilities of other classes without regards to flavor. (And "1 ability" is definitely no good measuring unit for power).

As far as the "spontaneously use any feat from anywhere" goes: No.
As a DM, I permit non-core stuff on a case-by-case basis after carefully reviewing the stuff and the character as he already is. Even if a player could pick it in 10 seconds, I'd need longer to review it. The best the fighter player can hope for is, to have a pool of "inactive" feats, that he can access via combat ingenuity/ master of warfare.

Overpowered. not having flight or teleportation is no justification. Your buddy can cast that for you and later in the game you will simply use items.
Speaking of using items, there is a reason why additional standard actions each round got dropped from haste in 3.0. But then again, I can't even say, that I find this class to get an unjustified amount of power per level after level 14, so the easily abuseable level 19 and 20 abilities I don't care for. Point is, that at all the low and moderate levels, this version of the fighter is too much.

Howler Dagger
2011-10-08, 09:52 AM
Because if you think, that wizards are better then warrior-type classes you have not seen a 1st level barbarian beating a 1st level wizard unconscious with the wizard's own familiar (not because he lost his greataxe but because he could and thought it would be fun).
Fun Fact: Pun-Pun can ascend at level 1.

though on the class itself: I feel like you give it too many options, and players will kind of feel overhwelmed. Also, i think giving it all the skills of the warior classes may be too much

Siosilvar
2011-10-08, 10:52 AM
.
Ok, it occurred to me that something is flawed with the Weapon Training approach.
A 4th level fighter having only a single weapon he’s really good with?
An 8th level fighter having only two weapons he’s really good with?
And then there’s the spiking, at levels 9 and 13, where new weapons suddenly go from nothing to Greater Focus/Spec.

So, to give the Fighter some decent versatility and streamlined weapon training progression, I thought about editing the Weapon Training column as follows:

-table-


Your thoughts . . . ?

Too much bookkeeping. It's fine as is.

1
I'm not sure I can think of 10 decent ACFs off the top of my head. Obviously, there's Spirit Lion Totem, the Ranger's Distracting Attack from PHB2, the Scout's Riposte (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a), and Lunging Attacks and Mettle are pretty good, but... that's only 5.

This discounting the fact that you get the ACFs (or even more feats) and the new features and the whole of Warblade. Warblade is already Tier 3. Why would you ever take Warblade when this fighter is available? I'd consider maybe letting them take Martial Study an extra two times, but there's no reason to completely obsolete a rather well-designed class.

nonsi
2011-10-08, 11:53 AM
>> After seeing to much "Tier 2 Overpowered" and "Tier 3 Overpowered" classes
>> (thus classes that lack the flexibility of the higher tiers and use that to justify
>> being overpowered in plain straightforward numbers), I dislike it.

Ok, lets examine together the relevancy of your gripes with fixes in general and with this one in particular.


>> The very first thing I check on every fighter fix is the power boost over the
>> first / first6 / first10 levels. Because if you think, that wizards are better then
>> warrior-type classes you have not seen a 1st level barbarian beating a 1st
>> level wizard unconscious with the wizard's own familiar (not because he lost
>> his greataxe but because he could and thought it would be fun).
1. Poor build or poor usage can make a wizard suck.
2. At 1st level a wizard has barely tastes magic and is indeed a weakling, and yet . . .
3. I played a 3rd level Gnome Beguiler a while back, in a party of 4th level Cleric, Fighter, Rogue & Monk. I got kicked out after 4 or 5 sessions for overshadowing everyone.


>> A fighter fix, that adds significant power on the first 6 levels thus has some minus points from the start.
Ok, use my Fighter fix and show me an outrageously powerful build for levels 6, 8 & 10.
(suggestion: read on before you decide to embark on this endeavor)


>> And this "Warcraft" feature is really ugly. Adding class features without any
>> checking except, that the character's need to be "Warrior-ish"?
Not any "Warrior-ish".
A "Warrior-ish" with no inherent supernatural or spell like features.
Check the ones I noted. None of them has one.


>> Rage at Level 1 might be all fun but then on 3 Swashbuckler's insightful strike,
MAD.


>> Swordsage's AC Bonus
A Swordsage's AC Bonus is an augmentation, not an (Ex) ability.


>> or Paladin's Divine Grace (depending on your attributes), later what about a paladin mount
1. MAD.
2. 1 is irrelevant. Divine Grace is (Su)
3. Special Mount is (Su)
4. 1, 2 & 3 are irrelevant, because the Paladin is not "Warrior-ish" according to the above.


>> or a ranger's hide in plain sight.
At level 17 (somebody stop me).


>> As far as the "spontaneously use any feat from anywhere" goes: No.
Why the hell not?!
1. 1 / encounter is hardly even exciting.
2. At 10th level, spells trump feats by magnitudes (unless the spellcaster’s player is an idiot, no offence).
3. I had a RL situation where a split-second inspiration saved my life – and I’m far from a 10th level warrior.


>> Overpowered. not having flight or teleportation is no justification.
>> Your buddy can cast that for you and later in the game you will simply use items.
10 million different things can happen to magic items to exclude them from the category of insurance policy.


>> Speaking of using items, there is a reason why additional standard
>> actions each round got dropped from haste in 3.0.
No room to compare Haste with a level 19 feature (on any scale - otherwise the feature should be replaced of nixed altogether).


>> But then again, I can't even say, that I find this class to get an unjustified
>> amount of power per level after level 14, . . .
Neither before, to my better understanding.
This class is all about options, versatility and usability – not raw power abuse.



Now, if you still feel like it, by all means, show me how you abuse this class at levels 6, 8 & 10.

Glimbur
2011-10-08, 01:24 PM
One of your stated design goals is
4. Simplicity of concept, built and usage..

However, you include abilities such as Warcraft, Combat Ingenuity, and Master of Warfare. These reward deep system mastery, which is not simple. In addition, the large number of feats and class features, which does make the class customizable as you want, also makes a character more complicated to build.


Impetuous Endurance requires reference to two different sources to understand it. Veteran's Grit should be made prettier and simpler to understand, probably using a table, and "you do not automatically fail saving throws if you roll a 1" is simple enough to put directly in the class.

I have other concerns but they have already been voiced by others; they are mostly on topics of clarity.

nonsi
2011-10-08, 02:33 PM
One of your stated design goals is .

However, you include abilities such as Warcraft, Combat Ingenuity, and Master of Warfare. These reward deep system mastery, which is not simple. In addition, the large number of feats and class features, which does make the class customizable as you want, also makes a character more complicated to build.

Want Rage/Fast Movement/5 points of Steely Resolve - it's yours for the taking at 1st level.
Just choose what you want from the official combat classes to your heart's content.
I see nothing complicated there.
Each feature grants different benefits and I can't say that one is vulgarly superior to the other.
Combat Ingenuity is available after 9 levels worth of game time. That's a lot of time to get acquainted with the various combat feats. Coupled with retraining, I see no obstacle there.
As for Master of Warfare . . . If you got to level 20 in one piece, you probably don't need any help there.




Impetuous Endurance requires reference to two different sources to understand it. Veteran's Grit should be made prettier and simpler to understand, probably using a table, and "you do not automatically fail saving throws if you roll a 1" is simple enough to put directly in the class.

I'll work on it. Maybe even today.




I have other concerns but they have already been voiced by others; they are mostly on topics of clarity.

I edited the OP whenever I saw a need to do so.
If things are still not clear - by all means, do share.

Andion Isurand
2011-10-08, 03:16 PM
.
Ok, it occurred to me that something is flawed with the Weapon Training approach.
A 4th level fighter having only a single weapon he’s really good with?
An 8th level fighter having only two weapons he’s really good with?
And then there’s the spiking, at levels 9 and 13, where new weapons suddenly go from nothing to Greater Focus/Spec.

So, to give the Fighter some decent versatility and streamlined weapon training progression, I thought about editing the Weapon Training column as follows:

{table=head] Level | Weapon Training
1 | Weapon Focus: 3 weapons
2 | Weapon Focus: 4th weapon
3 | Weapon Focus: 5th weapon
4 | Weapon Spec.: 1st weapon
5 | Weapon Spec.: 2nd weapon
6 | Weapon Spec.: 3rd weapon
7 | Weapon Spec.: 4th weapon
8 | Greater Focus: 1st weapon, Weapon Mastery: 1st category
9 | Greater Focus: 2nd weapon, Weapon Mastery: 2nd category
10 | Greater Focus: 3rd weapon, Weapon Mastery: 3rd category
11 | Greater Focus: 4th weapon, Weapon Mastery: 4th category
12 | Greater Weapon Specialization
13 | Greater Spec.: 1st weapon
14 | Greater Spec.: 2nd weapon
15 | Greater Spec.: 3rd weapon
16 | Greater Spec.: 4th weapon
17 | Weapon Spec: 5th weapon
18 |
Weapon Supremacy |
19 | Greater Focus: 5th weapon, Weapon Mastery: 5th category
20 | Greater Spec: 5th weapon
[/table]


Your thoughts . . . ?

I think you should simplify this a bit.

Here's a few feats I came up with using weapon groups variant, in which the Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec trees are replaced with a tree that serves to benefit all weapons for which the fighter has taken weapon focus.

Weapon Study Feats (http://andionisurand.blogspot.com/2011/10/weapon-study-feats.html)

Glimbur
2011-10-08, 03:23 PM
I edited the OP whenever I saw a need to do so.
If things are still not clear - by all means, do share.

Starting at the top...

6+ skill points is bard level skills. 4+ might be more appropriate... I feel that 2+ skill points are for wizards and nobody else, as everyone should have skills but wizards have the Int to have skills anyway.

Skill list is just plain lazy. "Warrior" classes is vague. Is it classes which have full BAB? Duskblade and Hexblade might not fit the theme you want, while a Monk is arguably a warrior despite 3/4 BAB.

Likewise, write out the weapon and armor proficiencies. It's not much more work for you and it makes the class easier to use.

You define "Warrior class" in Warcraft, but it is still not exact. What is a "category"? The best approach I see is to write a comprehensive list of which classes can have class features lifted from them.

Battlefield Brilliance is not much of an upgrade over Battlefield Insight, all it offers is two swift actions a round i.e. the swordsage capstone only with fewer restrictions. Adding another swift action to every turn is quite powerful.

This class is more powerful than Barbarian/Crusader/Knight/Ranger/Samurai/Swashbuckler/Swordsage/Warblade/Crusader/Paladin/etc. Mechanically, if this class is available and someone wants to play a combat-focused character then they will play this class. There is a great deal of variety available in builds for this class, but it is significantly stronger than ToB classes, which are a common power balance point. I feel that this is an issue.

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-10-08, 04:09 PM
Adding onto what Glimbur said, this class is less a fighter and more "free Gestalted Warblade//Some melee classes that aren't really defined."

This is not a good design goal.

kalminos
2011-10-08, 09:53 PM
Nonsi, An idea to make this much more palatable to the community might be to make an inclusive list of features you can pull, and at what level.

Also consider removing Warcraft from some of the less dead levels such as the first, fifth, ninth, thirteenth, and seventeenth levels where you get more weapons added to your repertoire of weapon specializations.

This would make it much less of a 'free tripple gestalt' class, which does seem ridiculous.

(this assuming you aren't using the the new table you made for weapon specialization).

Tell me your thoughts on this.

Yitzi
2011-10-09, 06:33 AM
Combat Ingenuity seems to essential to the versatility of the build (and hence its tier 3 status) to be usable only one round every 10 minutes. I'd say it should last until a new feat is chosen via Combat Ingenuity, even if that requires depowering other features.

nonsi
2011-10-09, 09:17 AM
though on the class itself: I feel like you give it too many options, and players will kind of feel overhwelmed. Also, i think giving it all the skills of the warior classes may be too much

Now that the list has been sealed, I believe players will have no problem making their picks.
It's all a matter of personal taste regarding which advantages you prioritize over others.




I think you should simplify this a bit.

Here's a few feats I came up with using weapon groups variant, in which the Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec trees are replaced with a tree that serves to benefit all weapons for which the fighter has taken weapon focus.

Weapon Study Feats (http://andionisurand.blogspot.com/2011/10/weapon-study-feats.html)

This would require nixing all Weapon Focus Iteratives (i.e. Spec+)
I could start at 2 or 3 Weapon Focus bonuses and add one at levels 5, 10, 15 & 20, granting the selected weapons 1/3 the Fighters level (rounded down) to hit, damage and opposed roll.
This will end up a bit better than the Weapon Focus tree and will be a lot more streamlined and simplified.

I'd like some feedbacks before I make this change.






6+ skill points is bard level skills. 4+ might be more appropriate... I feel that 2+ skill points are for wizards and nobody else, as everyone should have skills but wizards have the Int to have skills anyway.

The Warblade has 4, but is heavily Int based.
By making Int a dump stat, this remake will probably have less consistently.




Skill list is just plain lazy. "Warrior" classes is vague. Is it classes which have full BAB? Duskblade and Hexblade might not fit the theme you want, while a Monk is arguably a warrior despite 3/4 BAB.

1. The list is now fixed.
2. I'll take the time and compile the list (today or sometime soon).




Likewise, write out the weapon and armor proficiencies. It's not much more work for you and it makes the class easier to use.

Already did.




Battlefield Brilliance is not much of an upgrade over Battlefield Insight, all it offers is two swift actions a round i.e. the swordsage capstone only with fewer restrictions. Adding another swift action to every turn is quite powerful.

An extra swift action (for a total of 2 swift + 1 immediate, or 1 swift + 2 immediate) is nothing to sneer at.




This class is more powerful than Barbarian/Crusader/Knight/Ranger/Samurai/Swashbuckler/Swordsage/Warblade/Crusader/Paladin/etc. Mechanically, if this class is available and someone wants to play a combat-focused character then they will play this class. There is a great deal of variety available in builds for this class, but it is significantly stronger than ToB classes, which are a common power balance point. I feel that this is an issue.

I assumed it would be clear that "An all in one" means that it comes instead of them all.






Nonsi, An idea to make this much more palatable to the community might be to make an inclusive list of features you can pull, and at what level.

I'll try to compile one in the next few days.




Also consider removing Warcraft from some of the less dead levels such as the first, fifth, ninth, thirteenth, and seventeenth levels where you get more weapons added to your repertoire of weapon specializations.

More weapons just mean that you're less likely to lose your edge, not that you gain new edges.




This would make it much less of a 'free tripple gestalt' class, which does seem ridiculous.

Gestalting several bad classes doesn't necessarily produce a broken result.
I saw now indication that this fix is broken.




(this assuming you aren't using the the new table you made for weapon specialization).

Could you specify?
Power wise, the differences are negligible to none.






Combat Ingenuity seems to essential to the versatility of the build (and hence its tier 3 status) to be usable only one round every 10 minutes. I'd say it should last until a new feat is chosen via Combat Ingenuity, even if that requires depowering other features.

The concept behind this feature is improvisation/inspiration of the moment, not knowledge that actually doesn't exist.
That's why, if people find it not available enough, I'd rather make it usable each round, but require that any on-the-fly selection can be repeated only after an hour has passed.

kalminos
2011-10-09, 01:17 PM
I didn't mean getting more weapons proficiencies, I meant simply removing Warcraft from those levels that you would already be gaining more weapons.

nonsi
2011-10-10, 05:10 AM
I didn't mean getting more weapons proficiencies, I meant simply removing Warcraft from those levels that you would already be gaining more weapons.

I figured that's what you meant, I just didn't think that weapon prof warrant omitting Warcraft.

Anyway, I'v been cooking Warcraft to state what you can take and starting at which levels, and made some changes to the core features, trying my best to leave as much room as possible for a potential med-BAB striker as possible (I intend to specify).
I also made the necessary compilation to Impetuous Endurance. I'll use "Veteran's Grit" - it's more appropriate.
I also streamlined the Warblade exclusive features and Weapon Training (which will require nixing Weapon Spec.+, but they were Fighter-only to begin with, so no big change there).

I'll try to finish it up in the next 48 hours so things are much clearer for everyone.

Shadow Lord
2011-10-10, 10:17 AM
I'll give you one thing; this class certainly does do what it says it does.

Strong tier 3? Check!

Figher overhaul? Check!

All in one? Check!

The only problem? It renders every other martial class, ever unnecessary. Yeah, no.

Ziegander
2011-10-10, 03:21 PM
Gestalting several bad classes doesn't necessarily produce a broken result.
I saw now indication that this fix is broken.

Nonsi, this class doesn't gestalt several bad classes. It gestalts two Tier 3-4 classes with yet another Tier 4 class and then adds A LOT of stuff on top of that.

It's not broken, I'll give you that (it never reaches Tier 2), but an overpowered Tier 3 class is almost worse in my opinion. Tier 1 and 2 classes have the saving grace of being able to be toned down so as not to be so strong. Tier 3 classes rarely have that capability, and this one certainly doesn't. There's nothing a player could do to reduce the effectiveness of this class in play to anything below "stronger than any other warrior."

It's power level is so high that, in the Same Game Tests (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Dungeons_and_Dragons_Wiki:The_Same_Game_Test), I project it winning 80% or more of the encounters through 10th level and 70% or more of the encounters in SGT 15. Which is to say that it's every bit as effective as a Wizard or Cleric at the low to mid-levels and only starts to noticeably slow down in the highest levels of gameplay (13+).

nonsi
2011-10-10, 07:09 PM
Ok, all class features are now fully "cooked".

Andion Isurand
2011-10-10, 07:14 PM
I would change Warrior's Edge, back to a +1 bonus every 4 levels, starting at 4th level. That way its less front loaded. And perhaps do away with Pack Mule and tie a similar feature into warrior's edge.

Warrior's Edge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, when using weapons for which they have taken the Weapon Focus feat, fighters gain a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls for for every four class levels they possess (rounded down). In addition, for the purpose of calculating encumbrance, treat the fighter's strength score as if it were increased by the same amount.

nonsi
2011-10-10, 07:22 PM
Nonsi, this class doesn't gestalt several bad classes. It gestalts two Tier 3-4 classes with yet another Tier 4 class and then adds A LOT of stuff on top of that.

It's not broken, I'll give you that (it never reaches Tier 2), but an overpowered Tier 3 class is almost worse in my opinion. Tier 1 and 2 classes have the saving grace of being able to be toned down so as not to be so strong. Tier 3 classes rarely have that capability, and this one certainly doesn't. There's nothing a player could do to reduce the effectiveness of this class in play to anything below "stronger than any other warrior."

I believe that with the new definitions, skill-wise and features-wise, I managed to keep certain things out of its reach.
It can no longer do almost everything all the time and its modifiers are better kept at bay
Furthermore, Conjuration, Enchantment, Illusion, Necromancy & Transmutation schools still have a lot to offer against it... unless it uses Warcraft to boost saves, but this will come at the expense of features.




It's power level is so high that, in the Same Game Tests (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Dungeons_and_Dragons_Wiki:The_Same_Game_Test), I project it winning 80% or more of the encounters through 10th level and 70% or more of the encounters in SGT 15. Which is to say that it's every bit as effective as a Wizard or Cleric at the low to mid-levels and only starts to noticeably slow down in the highest levels of gameplay (13+).

Given that now the percentages would be a bit lower, I don't see why this is a bad thing.
It's called "Fighter" (or "Warrior").
This is what it's supposed to be doing better than anyone else, So why is keeping up the pace a bad thing ?

nonsi
2011-10-10, 07:27 PM
I would change Warrior's Edge, back to a +1 bonus every 4 levels, starting at 4th level. That way its less front loaded.

But then "Battle Clarity" give nothing before 4th level.
Every 4 levels could be reasonable though, but unlike several other fixes out there, this one doesn't give item creation Hocus Pocus and +4 at 10th level is the same as the core Fighter can gain by combining Weapon Spec with Melee Weapon Mastery at 8th - and in the higher levels, this class' modifier cannot rival magical buffs/debuffs, so I'm not sure +7 spread over 20 levels with no chees options whatsoever is over the top.

Yitzi
2011-10-10, 09:16 PM
It's power level is so high that, in the Same Game Tests (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Dungeons_and_Dragons_Wiki:The_Same_Game_Test), I project it winning 80% or more of the encounters through 10th level and 70% or more of the encounters in SGT 15. Which is to say that it's every bit as effective as a Wizard or Cleric at the low to mid-levels and only starts to noticeably slow down in the highest levels of gameplay (13+).

Once you mention the Same Game Test, it's worth noting that the test has a fundamental flaw, in that because it's for solo characters, solo-friendly classes and builds have a major advantage. These tend to primarily be spellcasters (since they can provide their own support), although there are a few tremendously fun nonspellcaster builds with the same property (I suspect I could make a ranger build that would be well in the wizard tier for higher levels.)
It also neglects noncombat capabilities, which has its own problems.

Ziegander
2011-10-10, 10:33 PM
It's called "Fighter" (or "Warrior").
This is what it's supposed to be doing better than anyone else, So why is keeping up the pace a bad thing ?

I seem to hear this line of thought all the time. D&D is combat. Just because a class gets the name Fighter doesn't mean it has the privilege of being better at combat than everyone else.


Once you mention the Same Game Test, it's worth noting that the test has a fundamental flaw, in that because it's for solo characters, solo-friendly classes and builds have a major advantage.

The test is designed to measure a character's combat power without other party members. That does not mean it's a test for "solo" classes. The explanation of how exactly the test is designed and, thus, why many believe it to be a very legitimate test of any character or class's power level and general usefulness is quite a lengthy one.

Would you like to hear it?

nonsi
2011-10-11, 01:58 AM
I seem to hear this line of thought all the time. D&D is combat. Just because a class gets the name Fighter doesn't mean it has the privilege of being better at combat than everyone else.


Better at physical combat - hell yes.



D&D is not just combat.


What’s Warrior’s Edge compared to Loresong stacked on an abused Inspire Courage or quickened True Strike? And both can create their own magical gear.

A full caster can easily abuse the action economy far worse than this Fighter fix.

A wizard can fly, teleport, manipulate things from a distance, charm, confuse, dominate, summon hordes, banish, possess, conjure Black Tentacles, dissolve the foundations of a castle wall, create stuff, destroy stuff, morph stuff, elude, mislead, lure, scry, change the combat arena with walls, punish people when he’s not even present and so much more.
A decently built med-level wiz can do most of the above in a single day's work - and with the right feats/skilltricks, you won’t even suspect anything.

A cleric can do ½ the above plus cure/heal, hurt with touch attacks, cause afflictions, summon/turn/control undead, ignore elemental damage, tell if you’re lying, force you to tell the truth and more.

An archivist can fill in for both in most cases.

I remember Sinfire Titan mentioning a Wiz/Ur/MT with Str 110 that ate everyone and everything combat-wise.

I made an entire group of 4th level characters cry out of frustration with a 3rd level beguiler.



So no, D&D is not just combat.
D&D is much more than just having reasonable martial stats, so if what I want to be good at is martial stuff, I believe I should have that option without having to apologize for it.

Ziegander
2011-10-11, 02:06 AM
Nonsi... you're missing the point.

You want a strong Tier 3 warrior class except you continue to compare it to strong Tier 1 caster classes.

Around 90% of D&D is combat. Just because the class is named Fighter does not mean that it gets to be overwhelmingly better at 90% of the game than other Tier 3 classes that aren't named Fighter.

nonsi
2011-10-11, 02:18 AM
Nonsi... you're missing the point.

You want a strong Tier 3 warrior class except you continue to compare it to strong Tier 1 caster classes.

Around 90% of D&D is combat. Just because the class is named Fighter does not mean that it gets to be overwhelmingly better at 90% of the game than other Tier 3 classes that aren't named Fighter.

1. How did you calculate 90%?
2. Is that what you do in your gaming sessions? Run PvP all the time? (I hope you understand that was sarcasm, but still...) I personally can't recall a group where combat crossed the average of 30% of the gametime.

Ziegander
2011-10-11, 02:29 AM
1. How did you calculate 90%?
2. Is that what you do in your gaming sessions? Run PvP all the time? (I hope you understand that was sarcasm, but still...) I personally can't recall a group where combat crossed the average of 30% of the gametime.

Have you read any D&D books? Of the non-fluff material, how much of the usable game mechanics written for D&D are for non-combat use? And how much of those few mechanics have no in-combat utility?

It doesn't matter that a lot of other stuff can happen in the average game session. All that matters is that, among the stuff that's happening, combat does, has, and always will comprise the vast majority of mechanical gameplay when it comes to D&D.

You don't get to make the argument that because story, travel, and problem solving comprise a lot of time at the game table that the Fighter gets to rule every other class when the dice are rolled. That's just bull****.

nonsi
2011-10-11, 04:14 AM
Have you read any D&D books? Of the non-fluff material, how much of the usable game mechanics written for D&D are for non-combat use? And how much of those few mechanics have no in-combat utility?

It doesn't matter that a lot of other stuff can happen in the average game session. All that matters is that, among the stuff that's happening, combat does, has, and always will comprise the vast majority of mechanical gameplay when it comes to D&D.

You don't get to make the argument that because story, travel, and problem solving comprise a lot of time at the game table that the Fighter gets to rule every other class when the dice are rolled. That's just bull****.

He must fist get to the actual point where the dice are rolled, which - when confronting opponents that use their heads and abilities to 50% efficiency - is not that trivial.

Now, take my proposed fix and, for a moment, nix Warcraft altogether. I'd say that, calculating all differences (sans UD, with far less abuseable Warblade-exclusive features, with Int being dump stat, plus Dev. and plus feats), the result couldn't get more than about 10% more capable than the official Warblade.
Now put Warcraft in back again, make the synergy math and tell me how it now throws game balance out the window.

mrcarter11
2011-10-11, 04:23 AM
I think what most people are trying to say is the class is balanced from a purely tier based point of view, which it seems was your idea. However it is broken from the point of view of someone who wishes to play a melee character in the same party as this. If I want to play a swordsage, because I like having those disciplines and that many maneuvers, then I get to sit and watch while you handle everything in melee. Swordsage is also tier 3, and you get all of my class features and you get the class features of whatever else you want to pick. I may have more maneuvers, but that doesn't compare at all, to what you can do. And that isn't fair to me as a player, is it?

A tier 3 class, needs to balanced not against tiers 1 and 2, but against other tier 3's.

Ziegander
2011-10-11, 04:37 AM
Now, take my proposed fix and, for a moment, nix Warcraft altogether. I'd say that, calculating all differences (sans UD, with far less abuseable Warblade-exclusive features, with Int being dump stat, plus Dev. and plus feats), the result couldn't get more than about 10% more capable than the official Warblade.
Now put Warcraft in back again, make the synergy math and tell me how it now throws game balance out the window.

You are apparently far too close to this project to look at it objectively or compare it to the rest of Tier 3.

Even without Warcraft, your proposed fix is FAR more than "10% more capable" than the official Warblade, whatever that even means. It's not even remotely close. With Warcraft, I don't know how powerful the class gets, because I have absolutely no desire to bother with the "synergy math."

Now compare the class to other Tier 3 classes. Ignoring all the classes that this fix makes obsolete that leaves you with Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Bard, Binder, Wildshape Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, and Psionic Warrior. Only the Dread Necro, Ranger (if cheesed), Factotum (if cheesed) and PsiWar can hope to compete and will usually probably not have the consistent success and potency in combat that your fix here has. I've never said that this fix is "broken" or that it throws game balance out the window. I don't care (so much) that it makes all other warrior classes irrelevant. What I'm saying is that it makes the rest of Tier 3 look like chumps and that's a bad thing.

mrcarter11
2011-10-11, 04:45 AM
Ziegander: While I like your own homebrew majority of the time, can you explain that last sentence.. If this class makes the rest of tier 3 look like chumps, which I agree is a bad thing, then don't you care that it makes most other warrior classes, such as all the ones of tier 3, irrelevant. But you said the exact opposite..

Ziegander
2011-10-11, 05:18 AM
Ziegander: While I like your own homebrew majority of the time, can you explain that last sentence.. If this class makes the rest of tier 3 look like chumps, which I agree is a bad thing, then don't you care that it makes most other warrior classes, such as all the ones of tier 3, irrelevant. But you said the exact opposite..

He's balancing for Tier 3, so the problem I'm trying to illustrate to him is that his class is much more powerful than all of the other Tier 3 classes. It's not necessarily a problem balance-wise if it totally eclipses all other warrior classes (many of which aren't Tier 3). It is a problem balance-wise that it totally eclipses the other Tier 3 classes.

nonsi
2011-10-11, 05:29 AM
Even without Warcraft, your proposed fix is FAR more than "10% more capable" than the official Warblade, whatever that even means. It's not even remotely close.

I'd like to understand how your calculations amount to this conclusion, given the changes (sans UD & IUD, with far less abuseable Warblade-exclusive features, with Int being dump stat, plus Devoted Spirit and plus feats).

What did you notice that I'm missing?

nonsi
2011-10-11, 05:41 AM
Now compare the class to other Tier 3 classes. Ignoring all the classes that this fix makes obsolete that leaves you with Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Bard, Binder, Wildshape Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, and Psionic Warrior.

To my uneducated understanding, they all trump this fix outside of combat situations - and like it or not, both session-wise and gametime-wise, more time is being spent outside of combat than in it.

Ziegander
2011-10-11, 05:47 AM
I'd like to understand how your calculations amount to this conclusion, given the changes (sans UD & IUD, with far less abuseable Warblade-exclusive features, with Int being dump stat, plus Devoted Spirit and plus feats).

What did you notice that I'm missing?

What does the phrase "far less abuseable Warblade-exclusive features" even mean, Nonsi? Because from where I'm sitting the only Warblade-exclusive feature he doesn't get is Weapon Aptitude. The "Int being a dump stat" issue is actually a blessing, not a curse, especially given the bump from 4 skill points per level to 6.

On top of being a normal Warblade sans Weapon Aptitude your fix also has access to Devoted Spirit, a great school, has 6 more bonus feats than a Warblade and may take Fighter ACFs if he's so inclined, Learning Ease to make taking those feats effortless, battlefield insight, veteran's grit, combat ingenuity, battlefield brilliance, battlefield genius, and master of warfare.

So, let's see, now he doesn't need the Diamond Mind save boosters because he can afford stuff like Steadfast Determination with all of his feats. This frees up his maneuver slots for more direct offensive power.

With Battlefield Insight he's invulnerable to 1 full-attack per round, and has a solid chance of avoiding many AoE spells and abilities.

With Vet's Grit, the vaunted Iron Heart Surge becomes much less of an absolute necessity, allowing for other maneuver choices.

At 13th level he's invulnerable to 2 full-attacks per round. He's basically entirely untouchable.

An extra standard action every round at 19th level, while still avoiding 1 full-attack per round? Sure, I'd love to.

And at 20th level you just get to have all feats all the time. Or something like that. Master of Warfare is really poorly written.

Are you getting it now? That's without even considering the possibilities of Warcraft. Without Warcraft this class blows the official Warblade completely out of the water. The Warblade doesn't hold a candle to this thing even before ever looking at Warcraft.

gkathellar
2011-10-11, 06:14 AM
Furthermore, for the sake of game fluidity, if it takes more than 10 gametime seconds per round to use, you’ve basically forfeited the option (“if by level 20 you’re still stuck there – for that moment you don’t deserve it. Learn how to play!“).

Lolwut. "Sorry, soft-spoken folks, medium-speed tactical thinkers, PbP players, and those who need a bit to consider things during their turn. If you take more than 10 seconds to use this unbelievably complex class ability, you suck and you don't know how to play."

There's a reason why metagame restrictions like this are decided on a group-by-group basis. What possible reason could you have to stick one into the text of your class?

nonsi
2011-10-11, 06:48 AM
What does the phrase "far less abuseable Warblade-exclusive features" even mean, Nonsi? Because from where I'm sitting the only Warblade-exclusive feature he doesn't get is Weapon Aptitude. The "Int being a dump stat" issue is actually a blessing, not a curse, especially given the bump from 4 skill points per level to 6.

1. Ok, maybe toning it down to 4 / level is in order.
2. "Far less abuseable" means that you can start with +1 and not the potential +4 and you can't boost it with Fox's Cunning or via any other means.




On top of being a normal Warblade sans Weapon Aptitude your fix also has access to Devoted Spirit, a great school, has 6 more bonus feats than a Warblade and may take Fighter ACFs if he's so inclined, Learning Ease to make taking those feats effortless, battlefield insight, veteran's grit, combat ingenuity, battlefield brilliance, battlefield genius, and master of warfare.

1. Weapon Aptitude is just a bit better than Weapon Training, so don't count it.
2. 6 more over 20 levels, but maybe adding Bonus Feat to levels 10 & 20 was a miscall. Rewinding that would narrow the gap.
3. Without Warcraft, the lack of UD & IUD is evident. 2 Warcraft slots are needed for those.




So, let's see, now he doesn't need the Diamond Mind save boosters because he can afford stuff like Steadfast Determination with all of his feats. This frees up his maneuver slots for more direct offensive power.

Steadfast Determination is not beyond the Warblade, even though it's more costly to it.




With Battlefield Insight he's invulnerable to 1 full-attack per round, and has a solid chance of avoiding many AoE spells and abilities.
. . .
At 13th level he's invulnerable to 2 full-attacks per round. He's basically entirely untouchable.

Ok, here's a real issue, but I believe it can be ameliorated.
How about:
1. Nixing move bonuses altogether from Battlefield Insight.
2. For Battlefield Brilliance, allowing spending all swift & immediate actions for gaining an immediate 5ft step (size & reach will make this one far less of an issue) or an extra move action during your turn.
3. For Battlefield Genius, allowing spending all swift & immediate actions to gain an immediate move action (for the sake of having the means to cope with Forcecage and such stuff) or an extra standard action during your turn.

Now you can use your mobility for either defense or offense, but not both.




With Vet's Grit, the vaunted Iron Heart Surge becomes much less of an absolute necessity, allowing for other maneuver choices.

Panicked, Frightened, Stunned and Dazed are still very bad. I wouldn't easily trade IHS.




An extra standard action every round at 19th level, while still avoiding 1 full-attack per round? Sure, I'd love to.

You couldn't enjoy both worlds even before the changes suggested above, because you'd still have to trade them all.




And at 20th level you just get to have all feats all the time. Or something like that. Master of Warfare is really poorly written.

"Poorly written" in what way and how would you rephrase it?

nonsi
2011-10-11, 06:51 AM
Lolwut. "Sorry, soft-spoken folks, medium-speed tactical thinkers, PbP players, and those who need a bit to consider things during their turn. If you take more than 10 seconds to use this unbelievably complex class ability, you suck and you don't know how to play."

There's a reason why metagame restrictions like this are decided on a group-by-group basis. What possible reason could you have to stick one into the text of your class?

Ok, I get your point. It's gone.

Ziegander
2011-10-11, 07:03 AM
Weapon Aptitude is just a bit better than Weapon Training, so don't count it.

How so? Weapon Training gives you free bonuses, Weapon Aptitude lets you shuffle bonuses around from feats you're probably not going to take anyway.


Without Warcraft, the lack of UD & IUD is evident. 2 Warcraft slots are needed for those.

2 Warcraft slots that an official Warblade doesn't even get.


Steadfast Determination is not beyond the Warblade, even though it's more costly to it.

My point is that your fix can be everything any standard Warblade build without Steadfast Determination can except now with 100% more Steadfast Determination! This means he frees up 3 maneuver slots for better offense. And he has 4 more feats than the normal Warblade even after that.


Ok, here's a real issue

Because everything I've said up to now is just minor stuff that doesn't matter.


"Poorly written" in what way and how would you rephrase it?

Poorly written in that I have no idea what it even does.

nonsi
2011-10-11, 07:26 AM
How so? Weapon Training gives you free bonuses, Weapon Aptitude lets you shuffle bonuses around from feats you're probably not going to take anyway.

but applicable to all weapons, not a limited list.




2 Warcraft slots that an official Warblade doesn't even get.

Sure, but the comparison was made while disregarding Warcraft.




My point is that your fix can be everything any standard Warblade build without Steadfast Determination can except now with 100% more Steadfast Determination! This means he frees up 3 maneuver slots for better offense. And he has 4 more feats than the normal Warblade even after that.

So, given 1 feat is cheeper than 3 maneuvers, this makes it a no-brainer for a Warblade - with or without this fix.




Because everything I've said up to now is just minor stuff that doesn't matter.

I thought we were discussing things in the spirit of "It's not necessarily a problem balance-wise if it totally eclipses all other warrior classes (many of which aren't Tier 3). It is a problem balance-wise that it totally eclipses the other Tier 3 classes".
Let's try to stay there a little longer and analyze the suggested changes.




Poorly written in that I have no idea what it even does.

Many situations allow simultaneous application of several feats (e.g. PA & W.Focus). Seemed obvious to me. I'll see what I can do here.

Ziegander
2011-10-11, 08:07 AM
Applicable to all weapons, not a limited list.

Just stop. Weapon Training is better than Weapon Aptitude and we all know it. Let's move on.


So, given 1 feat is cheeper than 3 maneuvers, this makes it a no-brainer for a Warblade - with or without this fix.

Sometimes, oftentimes actually, I question whether you've ever actually played a real game of D&D in which the DM and the players use non-homebrewed material and published classes.

A Warblade uses the diamond mind save counters because he gets them for free, because they negate the "fail on a roll of 1" rule, and because Steadfast Determination costs 2 feats to achieve an effect that's not quite as good.

But since your fix gets Impetuous Endurance he inherently negates the "fail on a roll of 1" rule, and then, yes, 2 feats is still cheaper than 3 maneuvers.


I thought we were discussing things in the spirit of "It's not necessarily a problem balance-wise if it totally eclipses all other warrior classes (many of which aren't Tier 3). It is a problem balance-wise that it totally eclipses the other Tier 3 classes".
Let's try to stay there a little longer and analyze the suggested changes.

We've established that even without taking Warcraft into account your fix is objectively better than a Warblade. But that's neither here nor there, who cares, right? Now the question becomes, with Warcraft how powerful is your fix? Well, combining Extended Intimidation with Rage gives you Real Ultimate Time Stop X/day (Instantaneous Rage + Intimidating Rage + Never Outnumbered + Imperious Command = All enemies within 30ft of you are Cowering for the rest of the encounter). That's better than anything short of Celerity and it comes online much earlier.

nonsi
2011-10-11, 08:40 AM
Well, combining Extended Intimidation with Rage gives you Real Ultimate Time Stop X/day (Instantaneous Rage + Intimidating Rage + Never Outnumbered + Imperious Command = All enemies within 30ft of you are Cowering for the rest of the encounter). That's better than anything short of Celerity.

1. Why is it significantly different than this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8753.5;wap2) (see "The Control Barbarian" and "The WAAAGH Lord"), aside from them being 1 trick ponies?
2. How do you figure all his opponents will drop like matchsticks when he barks at them? They have to be susceptible and fail their saves and have no contingencies. I don't see that happening to a reasonably constructed party at those levels. As for monsters - most of them are indifferent to fear.

Ziegander
2011-10-11, 09:07 AM
1. Why is it significantly different than this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8753.5;wap2) (see "The Control Barbarian" and "The WAAAGH Lord"), aside from them being 1 trick ponies?

I think being able to do it at 6th level as a gestalt Warblade/Barbarian with Fighter feats and other extra bonuses counts as being significantly better, don't you?

EDIT: Time for a build (cleaned up the mess that it was, whoops).

Human Nonsi Fighter 6
Abilities (28pt buy)
Str 18 Dex 11 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 12

Vitals
HP 62, AC 16, Fort +10, Ref +6, Will +4

Class Features
Learning Ease, Warrior's Edge +2, Battle Clarity, Weapon Training, Battle Ardor, and Battlefield Insight

Warcraft
Rage 3*/day, Power Intimidation, Extended Intimidation

Attack
+1 Greatsword +14/+9 melee 2d6+9, or MW Composite (+6) Longbow +10/+5 ranged 1d8+6

Feats
Extra RageB (1st), Intimidating Rage (1st), DodgeB (2nd), Skill Focus (Intimidate)B (3rd), Instantaneous Rage (3rd), MobilityB (4th), Elusive TargetB (6th), and Imperious Command (6th)

Skills
Balance +5, Bluff +6, Climb +13, Intimidate +18, Jump +13, Swim +13

Maneuvers/Stances
Steel Wind, Sudden Leap, Foehammer, Wall of Blades, Revitalizing Strike, Iron Heart Surge, Punishing Stance, Roots of the Mountain

Miscellaneous Gear
MW Chain Shirt, Cloak of Resistance +2, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, Healing Belt, other adventuring gear

nonsi
2011-10-11, 10:56 AM
You need Cha 15 for Imperious_Command.
You can't take Iron Heart Surge and Roots of the Mountain by 6th level, unless you take Martial Study.
AC 16 is not so hot. Punishing Stance is ill advised in this case.
You forgot Never Outnumbered

As far as combining Extended Intimidation Imperious Command - I'd say that the Cowering condition still ends after 1 round and only the Shaken condition persists. Any other interpretation is cheesecake.

Anyway, given web enhancements can get quite wacky (e.g. Dweomerkeeper), another option is to add to the Bonus Feat clause a restriction not to include web enhancements.

Both options render the cowering issue secondary. Whatever works.


Other than the above, I don't see anything there that should make me go :smalleek:
It's a good build, a fun build, one with a kick that doesn't depend heavily on magical gear (which is a good thing) but nothing to make other players cry themselves to sleep if they know how to capitalize on their characters' powers (not including martial classes, which this guy is here to replace).

Ziegander
2011-10-11, 12:58 PM
You need Cha 15 for Imperious_Command.

Learning Ease.


You can't take Iron Heart Surge and Roots of the Mountain by 6th level, unless you take Martial Study.

"Allow retraining of a maneuver/stance/Warcraft/Feat whenever the fighter doesn’t get one."


AC 16 is not so hot. Punishing Stance is ill advised in this case.

Wall of Blades.


You forgot Never Outnumbered

Whatever, it's a skill trick.

But from your responses it's clear that you are ready to dismiss and/or handwave any "proof" that your class is as powerful as I say it is, so I suppose this discussion is over.

nonsi
2011-10-11, 01:57 PM
Learning Ease.

Of course :smallbiggrin:




"Allow retraining of a maneuver/stance/Warcraft/Feat whenever the fighter doesn't get one."

This loophole passed by me. Fixed.




But from your responses it's clear that you are ready to dismiss and/or handwave any "proof" that your class is as powerful as I say it is, so I suppose this discussion is over.

The fact that I'm adjusting as we go along means that I'm listening.
Anyway, I'm not arguing against the claim that 1-on-1 this fix is superior to the other tier-3 classes. The only issue to me is by how much.
This is the right order of things as far as I'm concerned.
In previous editions, the fighter stood in the front pushing forward and/or shielding his squishier comrades, allowing them to act with diminished threat, according to the need of the moment.
This is the one thing that got lost in 3e.
If either Max the factotum, Zoltan the duskblade or Aelion the ranger have 50% chance to beat Joe the fighter in a close range 1-on-1 confrontation (on top of everything else they can do), then Joe can pack his bags and retire.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-10-11, 04:38 PM
If either Max the factotum, Zoltan the duskblade or Aelion the ranger have 50% chance to beat Joe the fighter in a close range 1-on-1 confrontation (on top of everything else they can do), then Joe can pack his bags and retire.

You undermine your own point: this class has Diplomacy, Intimidate, 6 Knowledge skills, Listen, Spot, Sense Motive, and Survival. That's actually a fair bit of out-of-combat ability, and moreso than the Duskblade you compared it to in your last post.

Further, the Tiers are bizarre...the Warblade is a VERY strong class, and is only Tier 3 because it lacks versatility. You made a class which is STRONGER than the Warblade, and proclaim it balanced...it's not. It's a bit OP, because the Warblade is already a very, very well balanced class. Possibly the MOST balanced class, IMHO. But it's Tier 3 because it does combat, and that's about all. Logically, the Sorcerer, with more spells than the Wizard, has more power, but it's a lower tier because it has less options.

Being BETTER at combat than the Warblade isn't balance: it's power creep. If you're aiming for a Tier 3 Fighter, it shouldn't fight better: it should instead have more scope to its abilities. That's the difference between Tier and Power. You upped the power to unreasonable levels, and really only achieved Tier 3 because you tacked the Warblade's maneuver progression on there.

nonsi
2011-10-12, 12:52 AM
You undermine your own point: this class has Diplomacy, Intimidate, 6 Knowledge skills, Listen, Spot, Sense Motive, and Survival. That's actually a fair bit of out-of-combat ability, and moreso than the Duskblade you compared it to in your last post.

Further, the Tiers are bizarre...the Warblade is a VERY strong class, and is only Tier 3 because it lacks versatility. You made a class which is STRONGER than the Warblade, and proclaim it balanced...it's not. It's a bit OP, because the Warblade is already a very, very well balanced class. Possibly the MOST balanced class, IMHO. But it's Tier 3 because it does combat, and that's about all. Logically, the Sorcerer, with more spells than the Wizard, has more power, but it's a lower tier because it has less options.

Being BETTER at combat than the Warblade isn't balance: it's power creep. If you're aiming for a Tier 3 Fighter, it shouldn't fight better: it should instead have more scope to its abilities. That's the difference between Tier and Power. You upped the power to unreasonable levels, and really only achieved Tier 3 because you tacked the Warblade's maneuver progression on there.

Hey Djinn :smallsmile:

Ok, how would you change it to achieve more scope to its abilities without too much power?
Less maneuvers?
Less disciplines?
No maneuvers, and maybe (yes/no) allowing taking up to 6 Martial Study past 10th level?
Something else that comes to mind . . . ?

paddyfool
2011-10-12, 01:44 AM
1) Cut out Phase II entirely. Or, at the very least, roughly halve what you gain from it somehow.

2) Cut down the skills from 6+int to 4+int.

3) Master of Warfare... may I suggest an alternative? "Your combat ingenuity ability may now grant any 2 feats simultaneously or any 1 warcraft ability". If that isn't enough, you could also remove the "no repeating things you've already used in the past hour" restriction.

nonsi
2011-10-12, 02:32 AM
1) Cut out Phase II entirely. Or, at the very least, roughly halve what you gain from it somehow.

Players shouldn't get punished too much for poor choices made when they were less experienced, so I see no justification to nix retraining altogether. Maybe it needs to be a bit more limited than it is right now, but I'm not sure how.

Maybe maneuvers do need to be cut off entirely, but Will this class be attractive enough, now that maneuvers are out of the picture ?
How about allowing fighters to count as full initiators when taking Martial Study, plus (already noted in the previous post) raising their limit on Martial Study from 3 to to 6 beyond 10th level ?




2) Cut down the skills from 6+int to 4+int.

Done.




3) Master of Warfare... may I suggest an alternative? "Your combat ingenuity ability may now grant any 2 feats simultaneously or any 1 warcraft ability". If that isn't enough, you could also remove the "no repeating things you've already used in the past hour" restriction.

Very nice :smallsmile:

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-10-12, 10:16 AM
Hey Djinn :smallsmile:

Hey. How's life? :smallbiggrin:


Ok, how would you change it to achieve more scope to its abilities without too much power?

Well, first of all it can't be sitting on the best 90% of the Warblade in addition to what's basically an entire other combat class. That's to much power right there.

But really the issue is that, while trying to make a more versatile Fighter, you've given him only combat abilities. If you want a real Tier 3 Fighter, you've got to have things to do other than combat, and every ability you've given him just makes him better at combat.

The result is a Tier 3 class just because you tacked on the maneuver progression. If you didn't, it's maybe low-mid tier 4 at best.

So really you'll need to either expand upon or re-invent the maneuver system, as that's the only thing that can really bring melee up to the number of options it needs to compete. You'll increase the tier by cutting MORE non-maneuver combat-only features and maybe granting more maneuvers, from custom disciplines (or even non-discipline maneuvers that may have combat and non-combat abilities).

One thing I've been debating on a maneuver-using class is the equivalent of 4e's Utility powers: a subset of maneuvers and stances not unique to any one discipline that give out-of-combat utility and run off a separate pool of maneuvers and stances: these might give things like the ability to run on walls for a certain amount of time, or break down doors, or any number of potentially useful things that don't have outright combat utility, but expand upon what you can do rather than how well you can do it. 'cause this class, as it stands, is the pinnacle of a combat monstrosity. It's NOT, however, a Tier 3 class on any merits other than the maneuvers you've given it, because it still only does combat, and, further, all its combat potential is pretty much in the realm of "deal hit point damage with weapon."

That's what you'll need to overcome to hit a solid Tier 2 or 3: not power, but options. Thus, cutting the maneuvers isn't the way to go, IMHO. I've always seen maneuvers as the future of all non-caster classes, and I'd say you need to EXPAND on the number and type of maneuvers available, rather than cutting them away entirely.

Yitzi
2011-10-12, 12:09 PM
I seem to hear this line of thought all the time. D&D is combat.

Not at all. Combat is certainly a major part (and definitely the part that involves the most rules), but there's also potentially (depending on DM) a substantial amount of noncombat. In fact, a well-played noncombat class can (if the DM isn't actively discouraging anything but kick-in-the-door style play) do things that make combat look relatively minor. (The trade-off, of course, is that optimized noncombat play is far harder than optimized combat play.)

Combat wins you encounters. Noncombat wins you the campaign.


The test is designed to measure a character's combat power without other party members. That does not mean it's a test for "solo" classes. The explanation of how exactly the test is designed and, thus, why many believe it to be a very legitimate test of any character or class's power level and general usefulness is quite a lengthy one.

Would you like to hear it?

Sure. This is all writing, anyway, so I can read and address it at my leisure. (Just to note, however: I may respond to only part of it, namely the part that I find flaw with.)

paddyfool
2011-10-12, 12:20 PM
Glad you like the ideas that you did.


Players shouldn't get punished too much for poor choices made when they were less experienced, so I see no justification to nix retraining altogether. Maybe it needs to be a bit more limited than it is right now, but I'm not sure how.


OK, keep the retraining. That wasn't what bothered me.


Maybe maneuvers do need to be cut off entirely, but Will this class be attractive enough, now that maneuvers are out of the picture ?
How about allowing fighters to count as full initiators when taking Martial Study, plus (already noted in the previous post) raising their limit on Martial Study from 3 to to 6 beyond 10th level ?


That kind of limited access would fit, and would boost the versatility (particularly, as has been noted, abilities outside of the directly combative). Although, with easier access to the Dungeoncrasher ACFs, better Intimidate and so forth, not to mention the floating feats (when they come in), I'd say this class already does well enough on the versatility front.

nonsi
2011-10-15, 02:11 PM
Hey. How's life? :smallbiggrin:

Intense :smallbiggrin:




Well, first of all it can't be sitting on the best 90% of the Warblade in addition to what's basically an entire other combat class. That's to much power right there.

So now that the maneuvers have been toned down, by requiring feats expenditure and putting a cap on the amount, is it better, power-wise? (read on before you reply)




But really the issue is that, while trying to make a more versatile Fighter, you've given him only combat abilities. If you want a real Tier 3 Fighter, you've got to have things to do other than combat, and every ability you've given him just makes him better at combat.

I’m not sure about only combat abilities.
The majority of its skills have out-of-combat applications (which makes me realize that to have enough to be effective skill-wise both in and out of combat, it really needs 6 points / level – otheriwise Int can’t be a dump stat and we’re back to the MAD issue).
Warcraft also has its day in the sun on that department, since:
- Steely Resolve & Veteran's Grit mesh well for soaking trap hazards when Mr. trapmonkey fails or is absent.
- “Rage+” are good for bending/lifting/breaking stuff.
- Uncanny Dodge helps against ambushes and surprise attacks
- Mettle is a good means vs. certain symbols
- Swift Tracker is definitely not directly combat associated
- Pack Mule is also useful all the time
One thing that, to date, no feature offers is the means for dealing with force effects, but that’s something that (to my better judgment) must be addressed via class-independent house rules.




So really you'll need to either expand upon or re-invent the maneuver system, as that's the only thing that can really bring melee up to the number of options it needs to compete. You'll increase the tier by cutting MORE non-maneuver combat-only features and maybe granting more maneuvers, from custom disciplines (or even non-discipline maneuvers that may have combat and non-combat abilities).

I’m not sure what you meant by “cutting MORE non-maneuver”. (granting or removing ?)




One thing I've been debating on a maneuver-using class is the equivalent of 4e's Utility powers: a subset of maneuvers and stances not unique to any one discipline that give out-of-combat utility and run off a separate pool of maneuvers and stances: these might give things like the ability to run on walls for a certain amount of time, or break down doors, or any number of potentially useful things that don't have outright combat utility, but expand upon what you can do rather than how well you can do it.

I’m not sure introducing even more mechanics (a separate maneuvers-pool) to the game is the way to go.
Anyway, wall-stunts are available via skilltricks. Breaking down doors is a direct result of how much kick your sundering attempts produce. The various misc. Warcraft options add more non-combat versatility to what you can do (if you took them).




'cause this class, as it stands, is the pinnacle of a combat monstrosity.

I don’t know. I was given the impression (and got to the same conclusion myself) that without maneuvers (being able to manifest the core Fighter plus the Crusader’s & Warblade’s inherent class features, resulting in feats-associated versatility + hard to kill + combat edge), this fix is not bad at all, but far from outrageously impressive.
So by making maneuvers available via feats (up to 3 maneuvers per 10 levels, rounded up, with full initiator level), it seems, with the above notes, now to produce a better balance between power and options.




It's NOT, however, a Tier 3 class on any merits other than the maneuvers you've given it, because it still only does combat, and, further, all its combat potential is pretty much in the realm of "deal hit point damage with weapon."

Being far more familiar than myself with the maneuvers system, I’m kind’a puzzled why you said that.
You know quite well that maneuvers can do a lot more than just deal loads of damage (such as granting self/allies more actions/options or denying them from the enemy).



I’d like to know your counter insights to mine.



Btw, the skills I omitted (aside from UMD/UPD, Spellcraft & Knowledge (arcana), which are totally inappropriate), plus various features (such as Trapfinding, Flawless Stride, Acrobatic skill mastery, HiPS etc) were left out on purpose, to leave enough room for the skillmonkey & Ki-based types (which I'll start contemplating once I'm content with thias fix).

nonsi
2011-10-15, 02:26 PM
Combat wins you encounters. Noncombat wins you the campaign.


So very true.

nonsi
2011-10-16, 04:15 AM
For the record:
I tried to make this Fighter fix live out to the goals of Role Continuity (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218686) (that was the aim even before this phrase was born) as much as a single class fix would possibly allow.
I practically made adjustments with every reply and I'd like to know if people still find the current result overpowered or lacking in versatility, or maybe now it's lacking in power or even too versatile?

I'd also like to know if people find my latest insights in post #66 to the point or flawed in some way.

All insights would be most welcome.

Yitzi
2011-10-16, 12:38 PM
For the record:
I tried to make this Fighter fix live out to the goals of Role Continuity (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218686) (that was the aim even before this phrase was born) as much as a single class fix would possibly allow.

Thanks for linking that, I'm posting there now.