3.5 Warblade/Crusader assistance requested!

[Mysterio731]

Welp, I'm finally starting D&D, and I've been paired up by our DM with a basically all new party. In a somewhat lame twist, I'm stuck in a party consisting of a wizard, warlock, beguiler, cleric, and ranger. The DM turned to me to play a melee class to protect the squishies. He suggested a warblade/crusader mix, so I did some research and came up with a maneuver, stance, and feat progression. Now, I turn over to the veterans of the game to ask: does the following make sense? Is there some better way I should progress? Should I even be playing a warblade/crusader given the party? Without further questioning, the following is what I've come up with (Alignment starts of Chaotic Neutral and switches to Lawful Neutral at the Crusader multiclass, race is human):

Maneuvers

Warblade1: Moment of Perfect Mind, Charging Minotaur, Steel Wind
Warblade2: Steely Strike
Warblade3: Wall of Blades
Warblade4: Steely Strike/Steel Wind -> Action Before Thought
Warblade5: White Raven Tactics
Warblade6: Steel Wind/Steely Strike -> Ironheart Surge
Warblade6/Crusader1: Battle Leader’s Charge, Mountain Hammer, Douse the Flames, Crusader’s Strike, Vanguard Strike
Warblade6/Crusader2: none
Warblade6/Crusader3: Defensive Rebuke
Warblade6/Crusader4: Vanguard Strike -> Revitalizing Strike
Warblade6/Crusader5: Bonesplitting Strike
Warblade6/Crusader6: Mountain Hammer -> Covering Strike
Warblade6/Crusader7: Elder Mountain Hammer
Warblade6/Crusader8: Crusader’s Strike -> Rallying Strike
Warblade6/Crusader9: Order forged from Chaos
Warblade6/Crusader10: Charging Minotaur -> War Leader’s Charge
Warblade6/Crusader11: Clarion Call
Warblade6/Crusader12: Douse the Flames -> White Raven Hammer
Warblade6/Crusader13: Greater Divine Surge
Warblade6/Crusader14: Battle Leader’s Charge -> Strike of Righteous Vitality


List of Maneuvers at each Level


1 - Moment of Perfect Mind, Charging Minotaur, Steel Wind (1 DM, 1 SD, 1 IH)
2 - Moment of Perfect Mind, Charging Minotaur, Steel Wind, Steely Strike (1 DM, 1 SD, 2 IH)
3 - Moment of Perfect Mind, Charging Minotaur, Steel Wind, Steely Strike, Wall of Blades (1 DM, 1 SD, 3 IH)
4 - Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Charging Minotaur, Steel Wind, Wall of Blades (2 DM, 1 SD, 2 IH)
5 - Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Charging Minotaur, Steel Wind, Wall of Blades, White Raven Tactics (2 DM, 1 SD, 2 IH, 1 WR)
6 - Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Charging Minotaur, Wall of Blades, Ironheart Surge, White Raven Tactics (2 DM, 1 SD, 2 IH, 1 WR)
7 - Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Charging Minotaur, Mountain Hammer, Wall of Blades, Ironheart Surge, Douse the Flames, Battle Leader’s Charge, White Raven Tactics, Crusader’s Strike, Vanguard Strike (2 DM, 2 SD, 2 IH, 3 WR, 2 DS)
8 - Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Charging Minotaur, Mountain Hammer, Wall of Blades, Ironheart Surge, Douse the Flames, Battle Leader’s Charge, White Raven Tactics, Crusader’s Strike, Vanguard Strike (2 DM, 2 SD, 2 IH, 3 WR, 2 DS)
9 - Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Charging Minotaur, Mountain Hammer, Wall of Blades, Ironheart Surge, Wall of Blades, Douse the Flames, Battle Leader’s Charge, White Raven Tactics, Crusader’s Strike, Vanguard Strike, Defensive Rebuke (2 DM, 2 SD, 2 IH, 3 WR, 3 DS)
10 - Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Charging Minotaur, Mountain Hammer, Wall of Blades, Ironheart Surge, Wall of Blades, Douse the Flames, Battle Leader’s Charge, White Raven Tactics, Crusader’s Strike, Defensive Rebuke, Revitalizing Strike (2 DM, 2 SD, 2 IH, 3 WR, 3 DS)
11 - Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Charging Minotaur, Mountain Hammer, Bonesplitting Strike, Wall of Blades, Ironheart Surge, Douse the Flames, Battle Leader’s Charge, White Raven Tactics, Crusader’s Strike, Defensive Rebuke, Revitalizing Strike (2 DM, 3 SD, 2 IH, 3 WR, 3 DS)
12 - Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Charging Minotaur, Bonesplitting Strike, Wall of Blades, Ironheart Surge, Douse the Flames, Battle Leader’s Charge, White Raven Tactics, Covering Strike, Crusader’s Strike, Defensive Rebuke, Revitalizing Strike (2 DM, 2 SD, 2 IH, 4 WR, 3 DS)
13 - Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Charging Minotaur, Bonesplitting Strike, Elder Mountain Hammer, Wall of Blades, Ironheart Surge, Douse the Flames, Battle Leader’s Charge, White Raven Tactics, Covering Strike, Crusader’s Strike, Defensive Rebuke, Revitalizing Strike (2 DM, 3 SD, 2 IH, 4 WR, 3 DS)
14 - Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Charging Minotaur, Bonesplitting Strike, Elder Mountain Hammer, Wall of Blades, Ironheart Surge, Douse the Flames, Battle Leader’s Charge, White Raven Tactics, Covering Strike, Defensive Rebuke, Revitalizing Strike, Rallying Strike (2 DM, 3 SD, 2 IH, 4 WR, 3 DS)
15 - Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Charging Minotaur, Bonesplitting Strike, Elder Mountain Hammer, Wall of Blades, Ironheart Surge, Douse the Flames, Battle Leader’s Charge, White Raven Tactics, Covering Strike, Order Forged from Chaos, Defensive Rebuke, Revitalizing Strike, Rallying Strike (2 DM, 3 SD, 2 IH, 5 WR, 3 DS)
16 - Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Bonesplitting Strike, Elder Mountain Hammer, Wall of Blades, Ironheart Surge, Douse the Flames, Battle Leader’s Charge, White Raven Tactics, Covering Strike, Order Forged from Chaos, War Leader’s Charge, Defensive Rebuke, Revitalizing Strike, Rallying Strike (2 DM, 2 SD, 2 IH, 6 WR, 3 DS)
17 - Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Bonesplitting Strike, Elder Mountain Hammer, Wall of Blades, Ironheart Surge, Douse the Flames, Battle Leader’s Charge, White Raven Tactics, Covering Strike, Order Forged from Chaos, War Leader’s Charge, Clarion Call, Defensive Rebuke, Revitalizing Strike, Rallying Strike (2 DM, 2 SD, 2 IH, 7 WR, 3 DS)
18 - Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Bonesplitting Strike, Elder Mountain Hammer, Wall of Blades, Ironheart Surge, Battle Leader’s Charge, White Raven Tactics, Covering Strike, Order Forged from Chaos, War Leader’s Charge, Clarion Call, White Raven Hammer, Defensive Rebuke, Revitalizing Strike, Rallying Strike (2 DM, 2 SD, 2 IH, 7 WR, 3 DS)
19 - Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Bonesplitting Strike, Elder Mountain Hammer, Wall of Blades, Ironheart Surge, Battle Leader’s Charge, White Raven Tactics, Covering Strike, Order Forged from Chaos, War Leader’s Charge, Clarion Call, White Raven Hammer, Defensive Rebuke, Revitalizing Strike, Rallying Strike, Greater Divine Surge (2 DM, 2 SD, 2 IH, 7 WR, 4 DS)
20 - Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Bonesplitting Strike, Elder Mountain Hammer, Wall of Blades, Ironheart Surge, White Raven Tactics, Covering Strike, Order Forged from Chaos, War Leader’s Charge, Clarion Call, White Raven Hammer, Defensive Rebuke, Revitalizing Strike, Rallying Strike, Greater Divine Surge, Strike of Righteous Vitality (2 DM, 2 SD, 2 IH, 6 WR, 5 DS)


Stances

Warblade1: Punishing Stance
Warblade4: Leading the Charge
Warblade6/Crusader1: Iron Guard’s Glare
Warblade6/Crusader2: Thicket of Blades
Warblade6/Crusader8: Aura of Perfect Order
Warblade6/Crusader14: Immortal Fortitude


Feats


H: Combat Reflexes
1: Power Attack
3: Stand Still
5: Improved Initiative
6: Ironheart Aura
9: Stormguard Warrior
12: Robilar’s Gambit
15: Defensive Sweep
18: Deft Opportunist


Quite a bit to get through eh? If anyone needs any clarification, feel free to ask, and please, I am receptive to any and all criticism (knowing very little about the game), so fire away!

[Mr.Bookworm]

General stuff:

I would go either straight Warblade or straight Crusader. Warblade are better on offense (someone's going to point out the d2 Crusader here) and Crusaders can tank better. What in particular do you want from Warblade? You get some stuff out if it, but it seems like you would be better served just going straight Crusader given that you want to tank. If you really wanted to, you could get into some RKV PrC stuff for even better fighting, but that's not necessary.

If you do go straight Whatever, make sure to talk to your DM to amend the progression to something not stupid (there's an editing error or something in there that screws up discipline progression).

Are the Cleric and Ranger melee fighters (I'm guessing not, given that you said you want to protect the rest of the party)? If not, I would drop White Raven and focus on something else, since White Raven isn't great outside of a couple of maneuvers (keep White Raven Tactics) if you have no other melee fighters in the party to use it with. Devoted Spirit is an excellent discipline and you're primarily a Crusader, so that would work well.

There's really no point in picking up Elder Mountain Hammer. Just stick with the original. The added dice are really not that good and the important part (ignoring DR and hardness) never changes between the two. Also keep in mind that most of the Stone Dragon isn't that great, since you have to be touching the ground to use it. Though keep in mind that you can always grab the 9th level maneuver from it, because it has no prereqs.

Also, looking over your lists, I think you don't you see how Initiator Level works. You base your maneuvers and stances off of it. So as a Warblade 6/Crusader 1, you have an IL of 7. You can immediately grab 3rd level Devoted Spirit stuff when you take your Crusader level.

But, at any rate, this is mostly nitpicking. It's really, really hard to screw up an initiator, and you seem to have most of it down pat.

[Mysterio731]

I would go either straight Warblade or straight Crusader. Warblade are better on offense (someone's going to point out the d2 Crusader here) and Crusaders can tank better. What in particular do you want from Warblade? You get some stuff out if it, but it seems like you would be better served just going straight Crusader given that you want to tank. If you really wanted to, you could get into some RKV PrC stuff for even better fighting, but that's not necessary. If you do go straight Whatever, make sure to talk to your DM to amend the progression to something not stupid (there's an editing error or something in there that screws up discipline progression).


Actually, I brought that up with the DM when he showed me character tables. He has decided to stick to what the table says, and I will thus not be able to fix the progression. As such, the 6 level warblade start was designed to get Thicket of Blades as the second stance (which is, based on research, the greatest stance ever), still have spots for the later two stances, and pick up White Raven Tactics at Level 5 (the greatest maneuver ever). Also, the save replacing maneuvers are supposed to be very important for non-swordsage adepts with the poor progression, so there's that. Also, the warblade allows access to Iron Heart and therefore Stormguard Warrior. Is it still better to go straight Crusader, knowing that the DM is not changing stance progression?



Are the Cleric and Ranger melee fighters (I'm guessing not, given that you said you want to protect the rest of the party)? If not, I would drop White Raven and focus on something else, since White Raven isn't great outside of a couple of maneuvers (keep White Raven Tactics) if you have no other melee fighters in the party to use it with. Devoted Spirit is an excellent discipline and you're primarily a Crusader, so that would work well.


The Ranger isn't, but the cleric is. Are the maneuvers I selected reliant on melee allies? I took the charges (for myself), WRTactics/Hammer (which I thought were good no matter who I was allied with), Douse the Flames/Covering Strike to protect retreating allies, and Order Forged from Chaos/Clarion Call (which I could probably see as not necessary without melee allies. Should I be grabbing more DS maneuvers for the White Raven drops then, and which ones would you recommend?



There's really no point in picking up Elder Mountain Hammer. Just stick with the original. The added dice are really not that good and the important part (ignoring DR and hardness) never changes between the two. Also keep in mind that most of the Stone Dragon isn't that great, since you have to be touching the ground to use it. Though keep in mind that you can always grab the 9th level maneuver from it, because it has no prereqs.


Okay, that makes sense. Though I don't think I have enough levels to grab more 9th level maneuvers after Strike of Righteous Vitality.



Also, looking over your lists, I think you don't you see how Initiator Level works. You base your maneuvers and stances off of it. So as a Warblade 6/Crusader 1, you have an IL of 7. You can immediately grab 3rd level Devoted Spirit stuff when you take your Crusader level.


... aren't initiator levels halved for multiclasses? That is, don't I only gain 3 IL from the 6 levels in warblade when taking crusader levels, leaving me with an IL of 4 when I first multiclass?

Thanks for the assistance and prompt reply!

[Urpriest]

... aren't initiator levels halved for multiclasses? That is, don't I only gain 3 IL from the 6 levels in warblade when taking crusader levels, leaving me with an IL of 4 when I first multiclass?


You're right on this last. Sometimes people forget that IL is tracked separately for different classes.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Actually, I brought that up with the DM when he showed me character tables. He has decided to stick to what the table says, and I will thus not be able to fix the progression.

Then you need to punch your DM in the face, because it's a pretty clear-cut error that I've never actually seen someone enforce. Or pick up Sandstorm and use the 1d43 weapon in there to prove the point.


Is it still better to go straight Crusader, knowing that the DM is not changing stance progression?

*sigh* No, it's not.


The Ranger isn't, but the cleric is. Are the maneuvers I selected reliant on melee allies? I took the charges (for myself), WRTactics/Hammer (which I thought were good no matter who I was allied with), Douse the Flames/Covering Strike to protect retreating allies, and Order Forged from Chaos/Clarion Call (which I could probably see as not necessary without melee allies. Should I be grabbing more DS maneuvers for the White Raven drops then, and which ones would you recommend?

WRT is supreme, yes. WRH is good. DtF and CS are good crowd-control, so that works for a tank. OFfC actually works pretty well in conjunction with the last two mentioned, and isn't melee specific, so that's fine. CC loses the attack function without melee allies, but free movement is still useful.

I didn't actually take an incredibly close look at what you picked, but you seem to be fine, looking at it.


Okay, that makes sense. Though I don't think I have enough levels to grab more 9th level maneuvers after Strike of Righteous Vitality.

Yeah, it was just a sidenote, although it might be worth picking up later with a feat.


... aren't initiator levels halved for multiclasses? That is, don't I only gain 3 IL from the 6 levels in warblade when taking crusader levels, leaving me with an IL of 4 when I first multiclass?

Wait, you're right. For some reason I thought that only applied to non-martial adepts. Whoops.


Thanks for the assistance and prompt reply!

No problem.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

What level are you starting out at? You should start out with a +1 Wrathful Healing weapon, even if you have to make it an Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) and put that special ability on it yourself for half price. Wrathful Healing is in Enemies and Allies, which mean it's officially still usable in 3.5 as-is since there hasn't been an updated version anywhere. It costs a +3 and makes it so the wielder is healed for half of any damage dealt by the weapon. If you use Item Familiar to add that yourself you'll need to hire an NPC spellcaster to cast Regenerate as part of the item creation process (910 gp at standard rates).

You probably want to start out Warblade 2/ Crusader 2/ Warblade 2, so you can get a 3rd level stance at Warblade 4. Not a huge difference, but there are some considerably better choices there. Mineral Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) is amazing for a melee tank, especially if you can just pay 3,000 xp to start with no level adjustment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm). Consider also taking Extra Granted Maneuver to cycle through your Crusader maneuvers every three rounds instead of every four.

You can use White Raven Tactics on yourself to take two turns in one round. (It targets an ally, PHB definition of 'ally' p304 says this this usually includes yourself making that the default, it doesn't specifically exclude yourself in the maneuver's description.) If you ready that via Warblade and spend that second turn attacking without using any more maneuvers, you can recover your expended maneuvers during that turn, thus using WRT to take two turns every single round. Your initiative will gradually get later and later, but it's totally worth it. Two turns every round. If you expend a Crusader granted maneuver, then take your WRT turn and recover all your maneuvers, you'll be able to use that same Crusader maneuver again the following round as long as the cycle hasn't started back over again.

Pick your maneuvers according to what you plan to use on any given round. Situational maneuvers like Battle Leader's Charge are good to have, some high-damage strikes are good for general use, and a big healing strike is pretty necessary. The rest of your maneuvers should be counters and boosts, plus White Raven Tactics. Maybe put some of those Warblade levels later on to pick up choice maneuvers (Manticore Parry, Moment of Alacrity).

[navar100]

1) Take two levels of Crusader before you reach 4th level Warblade so you can take a 3rd level Warblade stance. Those two Crusader levels will give you Iron Guard's Glare and Leading The Charge that you want.

2) Multiclassing between Crusader and Warblade is fine. The way they set up the rules and the maneuvers given, it's all so juicy. The 9th level maneuvers are wonderful, but you don't even absolutely need them. Still, if you want a couple, only splash in one of the classes. The extreme 14/6 split will get you one 9th level maneuver at level 20.

3) If you don't mind the feat commitment, Crusader/Warblade/Master of Nine does well. Improve the progression of whichever adept class you have more levels of. Your initiator level still increases for both, so if you take a level in the other class, Master of Nine levels stack. 10/5/5 split gives you initiator level of 17 in one class and 15 in the other. Plus, you get a little dual stance ability and have it for several levels instead of the 20th level warblade ability for one level before epic you aren't getting anyway. Downside to Master Of Nine - d8 HD and Medium BAB.

[The Underlord]

Im just curious but what is wrong with the progression?

[Mysterio731]

Im just curious but what is wrong with the progression?

You get stances known at levels before the next level of stance is available. You get a stance at IL 8, but the new stances don't come until IL 9. Another stance known is picked up at IL 14, and you need to be IL 15 to get the level 8 stances.



What level are you starting out at? You should start out with a +1 Wrathful Healing weapon, even if you have to make it an Item Familiar and put that special ability on it yourself for half price. Wrathful Healing is in Enemies and Allies, which mean it's officially still usable in 3.5 as-is since there hasn't been an updated version anywhere. It costs a +3 and makes it so the wielder is healed for half of any damage dealt by the weapon. If you use Item Familiar to add that yourself you'll need to hire an NPC spellcaster to cast Regenerate as part of the item creation process (910 gp at standard rates).


Starting at Level one, but you're going to need to explain this weapon thing in slightly more basic terms. Are you suggesting that we start of with already enhanced weapons?

Two recommendations for Warblade 2/Crusader 2/Warblade 2 with 2 later Warblade levels have been brought up, so I'll see what I can throw together for such a progression. Thanks for the suggestions guys.

EDIT: Would Pearl of Black Doubt be meaningful? I presume with the high AC of the crusader, enemies would be missing, but wouldn't I want to spend time in Thicket of Blades/IGG during their phase? I also don't see much benefit in Absolute Steel Dance, as it prevents me from locking the opponent in the same way Thicket of Blades allows. Am I missing something?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Starting at Level one, but you're going to need to explain this weapon thing in slightly more basic terms. Are you suggesting that we start of with already enhanced weapons?

If you were starting higher than 1st level, then you would most likely have been able to begin play with one or more magic items. Since you're starting at level 1, it could be something to look forward to. If you're not familiar with item creation rules or item familiars already, then maybe just let it wait for another time.

[Draz74]

Warblade6/Crusader2: none

Crusader 2 should let you learn another Stance! :smallwink:

(Probably Thicket of Blades)

[Talionis]

My advice would be to pick either Crusader or Warblade for most of your levels and take one or two levels of the other. I like a level or two of Bard. There is a feat that lets levels of Crusader or Warblade progress your Bardic Music ability. Dragonfire Inspiration may be usable to add a good amount of damage too. See http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0

Any of the prestige classes might be fun options too.