Trade in a medieval setting

[Six]

So, one of my players in a game I'm starting up has acquired some land, and I anticipate that trade and economics will become very vital. However, as we all know, DnD's money system sucks. I was wondering if anyone had really good trade oriented systems i could use, or suggestions for a way to construct a spread sheet (E.G 1 unit of iron=1 ton, and 1 unit iron is worth X units of products Y, Z units of product A, etc) and any suggestions on what kinds of ranges would make sense taking into account medieval economics, as I want to give a realistic representation of trade.

[Kol Korran]

does the player, and the other player really want to focus on that? if they do, then by all means go ahead and develop medieval aconomics, but most players... don't.

you can use the land and trading opportunities for two main things:
1) expanding a bit on the flavor of the world: the PC's treasurer says that the dwarfs from X mountain has some fine steel, rumors even say they struck a mithril vein. or some main merchants can be a small gypsy halfling clan, bringing stories from afar, maybe some minor magic items, but most notably- rumors from far and wide. and so on. a new religion might advocat it's faith, in return of promoting your goods and so.

2) use it for plot hooks: to deal with the dwarves, the PCs must travel to their home (or they come to yours) when a murder happens! who is to blame? the PCs of course. or the halfling may cause weird magic effects, or bring dealings with captured fey, and more..

i know this may not be what you've been looking for, but perhaps it will help.

[MesiDoomstalker]

So, one of my players in a game I'm starting up has acquired some land, and I anticipate that trade and economics will become very vital. However, as we all know, DnD's money system sucks. I was wondering if anyone had really good trade oriented systems i could use, or suggestions for a way to construct a spread sheet (E.G 1 unit of iron=1 ton, and 1 unit iron is worth X units of products Y, Z units of product A, etc) and any suggestions on what kinds of ranges would make sense taking into account medieval economics, as I want to give a realistic representation of trade.

I, unfortunatly, have nothing to help you but I would love to see the result of this thread for my own DM'ing and my friend's who DM alot could really benefit.

[Six]

Kol, I already have some fun plot hooks worked out there.
Mesi, I'll keep ya posted. :smallsmile:

[Onikani]

This may be a good place to start (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/wealthAndMoney.htm#wealthOtherThanCoins)

I agree that the D&D economy is kinda busted, as 50% of the multiverse's wealth is controlled 1% of the population, and another 49% is randomly lying around waiting for adventurers to find, and the final 1% is shared by all the peasants and commoners...

But if you want to know how much WotC thinks a pig should cost, it's in the link above.

Another interesting place is to look at item cost tables - for example a plain old steel chainshirt costs 100gp and weighs 25lbs. So if we assume that about half of that cost is materials, then 25lbs of steel would cost 50gp, so steel costs *roughly* 2gp a pound.
(Please note this doesn't work for everything, you will pull your hair out if you try to do these estimates with mithril or adamantine - since those are scaled pricewise to only be available at certain levels).

Again, it's not perfect, but it's a decent start...

[Six]

I do enjoy that little table, the big thing that troubles me is there's no accounting for supply or demand in anyway. Wanna sell a pig to a pig farmer after he's just had a new litter? Same price. Every time. I'm just trying ot find out if there's a system out there, or if I need to make my own.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I do enjoy that little table, the big thing that troubles me is there's no accounting for supply or demand in anyway. Wanna sell a pig to a pig farmer after he's just had a new litter? Same price. Every time. I'm just trying ot find out if there's a system out there, or if I need to make my own.

Then do a simple pecentage system. Something like extreme surplus adjust to 10%. Sell for 10% list price buy for 5% (from the vendor's point of view).

{table=head]Supply|Demand|Adjustment
Extremely Low|Extremely Low|+0%
Extremely Low|Low|+10%
Extremely Low|Decreased|+20%
Extremely Low|Normal|+30
Extremely Low|Increased|+40%
Extremely Low|High|+50%
Extremely Low|Extremely High|+60%
Low|Extremely Low|-10%
Low|Low|+0%
Low|Decreased|+10%
Low|Normal|+20%
Low|Increased|+30%
Low|High|+40%
Low|Extremely High|+50%
Decresead|Extremely Low|+20%
Decreased|Low|+10%
Decreased|Decreased|+0%
Decreased|Normal|+10%
Decreased|Increased|+20%
Decreaesed|High|+30%
Decreased|Extremely High|+40%
Normal|Extremely Low|-30%
Normal|Low|-20%
Normal|Decreased|-10%
Normal|Normal|+0%
Normal|Increased|+10%
Normal|High|+20%
Normal|Extremely High|+30%
Increased|Extremely Low|-40%
Increased|Low|-30%
Increased|Decreased|-20%
Increased|Normal|-10%
Increased|Increased|+0%
Increased|High|+10%
Increased|Extremely High|+20%
High|Extremely Low|-50%
High|Low|-40%
High|Decreased|-30%
High|Normal|-20%
High|Increased|-10%
High|High|+0%
High|Extremely High|+10%
Extremely High|Extremely Low|-60%
Extremely High|Low|-50%
Extremely High|Decreased|-40%
Extremely High|Normal|-30%
Extremely High|Increased|-20%
Extremely High|High|-10%
Extremely high|Extremely High|+0%
[/table]

Ok, I think I did that right. If you don't want to use a table a simple equation. Extremes is a change of 30, High/Low is a change of 20, Increased/Decreased is a change of 10. Higher demand is a postive, lower demand is a negative and vice-versa for supply. How's that?

[Seharvepernfan]

I agree that the D&D economy is kinda busted, as 50% of the multiverse's wealth is controlled 1% of the population, and another 49% is randomly lying around waiting for adventurers to find, and the final 1% is shared by all the peasants and commoners...

Hey, just like real life!

[ClothedInVelvet]

This may be a good place to start (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/wealthAndMoney.htm#wealthOtherThanCoins)

I agree that the D&D economy is kinda busted, as 50% of the multiverse's wealth is controlled 1% of the population, and another 49% is randomly lying around waiting for adventurers to find, and the final 1% is shared by all the peasants and commoners...

But if you want to know how much WotC thinks a pig should cost, it's in the link above.

Another interesting place is to look at item cost tables - for example a plain old steel chainshirt costs 100gp and weighs 25lbs. So if we assume that about half of that cost is materials, then 25lbs of steel would cost 50gp, so steel costs *roughly* 2gp a pound.
(Please note this doesn't work for everything, you will pull your hair out if you try to do these estimates with mithril or adamantine - since those are scaled pricewise to only be available at certain levels).

Again, it's not perfect, but it's a decent start...

Definitely not perfect. The SRD stuff is really quite bad.

For example, if you want to multiply your money, invest all of it in ladders.
Let's say I have 100 gold pieces.
10-ft Ladders cost 5 copper each, so we buy 2,000 of them.
Break all the ladders in half (the long way) or remove the rungs.
At the end of the day, you sell back 4,000 10-ft poles (valued at 2 silver each)
Even if you can only get the standard half value, you acquire 4,000 silver. That's 400 gold, 4x what you started with.
Buy something nice for yourself.

[Frozen_Feet]

... half of a broken ladder does not a 10 ft. pole make.

[ClothedInVelvet]

... half of a broken ladder does not a 10 ft. pole make.

A 10-foot ladder is two 10-foot poles with lots of shorter poles in between. Pull the two 10-foot poles apart and pull out the shorter poles.

Stack the rungs up somewhere (sell them for firewood, but only locally).

You are left with two 10-foot poles.

[Frozen_Feet]

Wrong. A 10 ft. pole is a solid piece of wood. Half of a broken ladder with rungs removed is a piece of wood with holes all along its lenght, compromising its structural integrity.

Take a solid 10 ft. pole. Use it as a lever. Now, take half of a broken ladder and use it as a lever. Go ahead. I dare you.

That exploit, as famous as it is, fails in practice.

[drakir_nosslin]

You are left with two 10-foot poles.

With holes in them. I wouldn't buy that.

This is an old trick, and a not very useful one either. Don't forget that you have to find buyers for all the 10-foot poles too. While a merchant might want to have one or two just in case they run into a gang of murderous hobos with paranoia that doesn't mean that you can make a fortune by selling broken ladders.

EDIT: Bah, swordsages in every thread these days.

[Brother Oni]

Another interesting place is to look at item cost tables - for example a plain old steel chainshirt costs 100gp and weighs 25lbs. So if we assume that about half of that cost is materials, then 25lbs of steel would cost 50gp, so steel costs *roughly* 2gp a pound.

I'd be very careful about using finished items as a marker for materials costs.

With arms and armour, it's not the raw materials you're paying for, it's the labour costs. Smelting the ore, purifying the iron, tempering it with carbon to turn it into steel, then you can start turning it into whatever you want, be it turning it into wire, clipping it into ringlets then riveting it together for chain armour, or making it into a well balance long stick of metal for a sword.

If you want an even more extreme example of labour costs, take a look at masterwork weaponry (+300gp for a 5% increase in 'weapon performance').

[Gaiyamato]

DMG II has rules on running a business. Including a farm.

Quintessential Aristrocrat II has some rules for economics that actually do well at balancing out the problems in a DnD 3.5 economy. Also includes rules for running an estate.

Powers of Faerun has a larger scale more complex economics rules and a class called the Merchant Prince.

The PoF rules are actually built on top of the DMG II rules and extend them.
The QAII book rules mesh nicely with the others and fill in some blanks.

It works just fine without needing to work out a complete DnD economy that actually works for real.

[Daremonai]

According to the SRD entry for Craft skills:

"Pay one-third of the item’s price for the cost of raw materials."

Though it doesn't mention the rental of a forge, etc. Either way, metals/wood/textiles work out cheaper than if you go with half material cost (and you can make a profit from crafting - approx 1/6 of the item's market cost).

[Princess]

Quintessential Aristrocrat II has some rules for economics that actually do well at balancing out the problems in a DnD 3.5 economy. Also includes rules for running an estate.


My internet doesn't believe this book exists. Where did you find it?

[Gaiyamato]

Sorry, no "II". Just "The Quintessential Aristocrat". It is by Mongoose Publishing.

[Gaiyamato]

Oh an the Arms and Equipment Guide has rules and prices etc. for trade goods and Trade Caravans as well.

I ran a spice Merchant once, micro-managed it right down to the last individual spice. Made the other player's actually find the recipes for their meals so they could work out what they needed to buy. lol.

[Princess]

Oh an the Arms and Equipment Guide has rules and prices etc. for trade goods and Trade Caravans as well.

I ran a spice Merchant once, micro-managed it right down to the last individual spice. Made the other player's actually find the recipes for their meals so they could work out what they needed to buy. lol.

I love this. I played a gourmand noble who stopped a fight with calm emotions because it would've gotten in the way of tea time.

[Spiryt]

According to the SRD entry for Craft skills:

"Pay one-third of the item’s price for the cost of raw materials."

Though it doesn't mention the rental of a forge, etc. Either way, metals/wood/textiles work out cheaper than if you go with half material cost (and you can make a profit from crafting - approx 1/6 of the item's market cost).

What kind of PC rents a forge?

They have Power Attack and Intimidation for this.

[Gaiyamato]

What kind of PC rents a forge?

They have Power Attack and Intimidation for this.

Or Charm Person.

[Eric Tolle]

Actually, what you want to do is buy 200 iron pots for 100 gold. Then you sell the ton of iron for 1000 gold. You then use your profits to buy more iron pots....

[Mr.Bookworm]

If you want a good overview of medieval economics and like anime/manga (although I'd say the manga is better), check out Spice and Wolf. Ignore the naked wolfgirl, because the series is really about accurate, hardcore medieval economics and dudes talking about money.

[Eric Tolle]

Down to the problem of money changers developing hemorrhoids.

And don't ignore the naked wolf girl-she's pretty damn sharp when it comes to trading.

[Ravens_cry]

I love this. I played a gourmand noble who stopped a fight with calm emotions because it would've gotten in the way of tea time.
Yes, hot leaf juice is definitely more important than some silly fracas.
I am Ravens Cry and I approve of this message. :smallamused:

[Byzantine]

There are some other things you have to worry about with economic systems. Something banks, consumers and travelers in today's world deal with still: exchange rates, wartime price-hikes, material availability, capitalistic tendencies, inaccurate advertising, etc. As has been stated, most player don't want to deal with that.

If they do, however, remember that if Nation A doesn't like Nation B, their coinage will be worth half as much, or possibly even nothing at all. Or, of course, it could be used for raw materials. (A campaign I was in, the coins of a nation were sought after to make statues to the heroes that fought against said nation.)

In the end, I suggest making up a list of things that have different real-life values than what's in the PHB. For wartime, increase the final price by 1% for every month the war continues, to a maximum of +15%. Figure out exchange rates as a simple 1gp=xgp/sp (or whatever unit of monetary measurement your game's nations use). For everything else, just add or subtract some arbitrary amount, varying from merchant to merchant if you so wish. Remember that quality (both implied and actual) matters!