[PATHFINDER] Let's talk about Arcane Tricksters...

[Zolthux]

OCTOBER 12, 2011 UPDATE

Thanks to everyone for their input and help. I think I have finalized this arcane trickster build. The original post is as follows:

So I've been helping a friend of mine build an arcane trickster, and I've been wanting to play one myself for a while (currently using a Paladin 2/Sorcerer6/EK2).
I've been looking at the Pathfinder books for ideas (Not Dnd stuff, just PF), and I've decided that sneaking rays is the best way to go...Trying to hit on a 2 here.
I'm going to try to build an arcane trickster using a Rogue/Sorcerer build. I know usually people would prefer wizard, but the bloodlines and archetypes open the floor for some neat stuff.
Specifically, we're looking at Rogue 3/Sorcerer 7/Arcane Trickster

The Sorcerer bloodline is going to be elemental [fire] with the primal archetype. This allows all my fire spells to deal 1 extra point of damage for each die I roll, just like the draconic bloodline arcana. If you are wondering why I did Elemental-> Primal instead of just Draconic, it's because elemental ray is more useful to me than the claws.

I will now post my Character Progression for your viewing

Class Abilities Feats (Traits: Magical Knack and Reactionary)
Rogue 1 SA +1d6, Trapfinding Point Blank Shot
Rogue 2 Evasion, Rogue Talent(Combat Trick) Precise Shot
Rogue 3 SA +2d6, trap sense +1 Toughness
Sorc 1 Elemental [Primal] Bloodline (Fire), Elemental Ray Bonus Feat: Eschew Materials
Sorc 2 Arcane Armor Training
Sorc 3 Resist 10 fire, Bloodline Spell: Burning Hands
Sorc 4 Master Alchemist
Sorc 5 Bloodline Spell: Scorching Ray
Sorc 6 Weapon Focus (Ray)
Sorc 7 Bloodline Feat, Bloodline Spell: Protect from Energy Bonus Feat: Improved Initiative
Arcane T1 Ranged Legerdemain Empower Spell
Arcane T2 SA +3d6
Arcane T3 Impromptu Sneak Attack 1/day Spontaneous Metafocus [Scorching Ray]
Arcane T4 SA +4d6
Arcane T5 Tricky Spells 3/Day Quicken Spell
Arcane T6 SA +5d6
Arcane T7 Impromptu Sneak Attack 2/day, Tricky Spells 4/day Spell Penetration
Arcane T8 SA +6d6
Arcane T9 Invisible Thief, Tricky Spells 5/day Greater Spell Penetration
Arcane T10 SA+7d6, surprise spells

Master Alchemist is there So I can make myself plenty of Alchemist Fires. The Adventurer's Armoury introduces using alchemical items as spell foci.
I can use an alchemist fire as a focus component to make my scorching ray +1 on the attack roll. I can also choose to spend one to have targets catch on fire as if struck by an AF.
I'm pretty sure there's a better feat out there for level 7, so feel free to suggest it.

As for Race, I'd probably go with halfling, replacing the sure footed ability with Swift as shadows to reduce stealth penalties, this should help me get my sneak

I'm using Arcane Armor Training + mithrail chainshirt +X because I could use AAT + empowered Scorching Ray + trading my move action for a second swift action and using Quickened Scorching Ray (or meta rod). I assume that works. Else is Mage armor and another open feat.

Skills ar pretty self explanatory. Standard Rogue stuff + the ones needed for AT + Craft (alchemy) for my alchemist fires.

Spells are straightforward: Rays, rays, rays. Plus a few buffs and stuff to help me get my sneak attack in (Grease, Darkness + Darkvision, etc)

Finally, gear: ultimately I'd want a robe of arcane heritage (thereby making my sorcerer level 11 for the purpose of feats, which gives me a few spells and makes my Elemental ray stronger. And a ring of wizardry.


So this is my take on arcane trickster going sorcerer/rogue. I should also mention that for the purpose of casting spells and concentration, my caster level is only HD - 1, which allows stuff like scorching ray to escalate faster to their max.

I'd like to now open the floor for comments/suggestions/ideas on how to incorporate Combat Expertise + The Feint feats

The changes are listed below:

Class Abilities Feats (Traits: Magical Knack and Reactionary)
Rogue 1 SA +1d6, Trapfinding Point Blank Shot
Rogue 2 Evasion, Rogue Talent(Combat Trick) Precise Shot
Rogue 3 SA +2d6, trap sense +1 Toughness
Sorc 1 Elemental [Primal] Bloodline (Fire), Elemental Ray Bonus Feat: Eschew Materials
Sorc 2 Improved Initiative
Sorc 3 Resist 10 fire, Bloodline Spell: Burning Hands
Sorc 4 Combat Casting
Sorc 5 Bloodline Spell: Scorching Ray
Sorc 6 Piercing Spell
Sorc 7 Bloodline Feat, Bloodline Spell: Protect from Energy Bonus Feat: Empower Spell
Arcane T1 Ranged Legerdemain Quicken Spell
Arcane T2 SA +3d6
Arcane T3 Impromptu Sneak Attack 1/day Spontaneous Metafocus [Scorching Ray]
Arcane T4 SA +4d6
Arcane T5 Tricky Spells 3/Day Spell Penetration
Arcane T6 SA +5d6
Arcane T7 Impromptu Sneak Attack 2/day, Tricky Spells 4/day Maximize Spell
Arcane T8 SA +6d6
Arcane T9 Invisible Thief, Tricky Spells 5/day Greater Spell Penetration
Arcane T10 SA+7d6, surprise spells

The Race is gnome. Using the APG chapter on advanced races, here are the changes made to the gnome race:

Academician: Some gnomes are more academically inclined than their kin. Gnomes with this racial trait gain a +2 bonus on any one Knowledge skill. This racial trait replaces the obsessive racial trait. Will probably put it into knowledge dungeoneering

Eternal Hope: Gnomes rarely lose hope and are always confident that even hopeless situations will work out. Gnomes with this racial trait receive a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against fear and despair effects. Once per day, after rolling a 1 on a d20, the gnome may reroll and use the second result. This racial trait replaces the defensive training and hatred racial traits.

Pyromaniac: Gnomes with this racial trait are treated as one level higher when casting spells with the fire descriptor, using granted powers of the Fire domain, using the bloodline powers of the fire elemental bloodline or the revelations of the oracle's flame mystery, and when determining the damage of alchemist bombs that deal fire damage (this ability does not give gnomes early access to level-based powers, only affecting the powers they could use without this ability). Gnomes with Charisma of 11 or higher also gain the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—dancing lights, flare, prestidigitation, produce flame. The caster level for these effects is equal to the gnome's level; the DCs are Charisma-based. This racial trait replaces the gnome magic and illusion resistance racial traits.

Spells for the most part will be composed of a couple of defensive spells, a lot of offensive spells, and spells to help the sneak. Acid Splash as my mai spammable cantrip spell, Scorching Ray as my main offense spell, Acid Arrow for backup, Vanish, Invisibility and greater invisibility to go unnoticed; and grease to help mess with opponents.

[NamelessNPC]

I'm just throwing this, no idea if it would make your character better or not: assasin 1 or alchemist 1 can get you a second sneak attack dice. That way you lose one less caster level. You can be Rogue 1/Alchemist 1/sorc 8/arcane trickster 10 or rogue 1/sorc 8/assasin 1/arcane trickster 10


EDIT: I don't think you can trade your move action for a swift action. At least I haven't read it anywhere. Also, you can only perform 1 swift action per turn, so you could not use two if you somehow got them.

I also don't understand what exactly makes your caster level HD-1 instead of HD-3

[Zolthux]

Yeah i was unsure on the swift/move action thing.

I'm probably better off just casting Mage Armor at the start of the day and then shield before combat.

Caster level is HD-3 thanks to the magical knack trait


Benefit: Pick a class when you gain this trait—your caster level in that class gains a +2 trait bonus as long as this bonus doesn’t increase your caster level higher than your current Hit Dice.

As for Assassin, it's very game dependent, as some DM's (like the one who runs my game) oppose Evil PC's.

Dipping a level in alchemist does seem good...allows me to get bombs...

I suppose that Alch1/Rogue3/Wizard 6/AT10 could be a good build also.

[Ravens_cry]

If your using traits, see about picking up "Magical Knack", it increases your CL by two if this doesn't put your CL over your HD. That can be potentially another 2d6, worth it for a trait in my opinion. Master Spy also adds 1d6 up front and doesn't require Evil.

[NamelessNPC]

As for Assassin, it's very game dependent, as some DM's (like the one who runs my game) oppose Evil PC's.

Dipping a level in alchemist does seem good...allows me to get bombs...

I suppose that Alch1/Rogue3/Wizard 6/AT10 could be a good build also.

You don't get the bombs, the Vivisectionist archetype trades those for SA. That lets you have 2d6 sneak attack by only "wasting" 2 levels (rogue 1/ vivisectionist 1). That plus magical knack gets you optimal casterl level.

Off topic: Magical knack is absurdly powerful for a trait. Are they serious? Is this supposed to be worth half as much as Animal Affinity?

[Ravens_cry]

You don't get the bombs, the Vivisectionist archetype trades those for SA. That lets you have 2d6 sneak attack by only "wasting" 2 levels (rogue 1/ vivisectionist 1). That plus magical knack gets you optimal casterl level.
That doesn't work. Either they errata-ed it or something, but while rogue and vivisectionist levels (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/vivisectionist) *stack* for getting more sneak attack, it doesn't give it to you faster like some prestige classes do.


Off topic: Magical knack is absurdly powerful for a trait. Are they serious? Is this supposed to be worth half as much as Animal Affinity?
No idea, but damn I want to use it for my next trickster gish.

[Doorhandle]

Well It can't increase caster level higher than hit dice, but seeing as it's banned in pathfinder society, I will say "yes, but no game-breakingly so."

It's mainly there so that mutilcassing is easier. And it's not like it gives you more spells...

[NamelessNPC]

That doesn't work. Either they errata-ed it or something, but while rogue and vivisectionist levels (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/vivisectionist) *stack* for getting more sneak attack, it doesn't give it to you faster like some prestige classes do.


Wow, the example they use to explain it is exactly what I was saying. I hadn't notice that errata, it must be recent

[CTrees]

Wow, the example they use to explain it is exactly what I was saying. I hadn't notice that errata, it must be recent

Are you sure? I got my copy of Ultimate Magic the day it was available at my FLGS, and it words the example the same way the SRD does - Rog1/Alch1 sneak attacks for 1d6, as a second level rogue, Rog1/Alch2 SAs for 2d6. It's why I never considered using it for an AT build.

[Zolthux]

Are you sure? I got my copy of Ultimate Magic the day it was available at my FLGS, and it words the example the same way the SRD does - Rog1/Alch1 sneak attacks for 1d6, as a second level rogue, Rog1/Alch2 SAs for 2d6. It's why I never considered using it for an AT build.

Yes, Vivisectionist's levels stack with rogue levels to calculate sneak attack only.

I never thought about it though, although the caster levels do not stack, 3 levels of vivisectionist gives the sneak attack requirement along with a few extracts that might prove useful. (Such as preparing situational, utility low level spells)

I hadn't thought about Master Spy, thank you.

However, we can't mix too many 3/4 and 1/2 BAB classes because of the abysmally low total BAB. We want to never miss either here.

An ideal mix then could be Rogue 1/Sorcerer 8/Master Spy 1/Arcane Trickster 10.

Total BAB would be 9 at level 20, one less than standard casting classes. However, The sneak Attack would still be +7d6 by level 20. Also, caster level will never be hampered (Ability to cast spells will go back by 2, but effects/spells that scale up with caster level wont thanks to magical knack)

Also, just good good is evasion? the Rogue/Spy route doesn't get it

Final Thought:
A Robe of Arcane Heritage makes the sorcerer level 12 for the purpose of powers, meaning the elemental ray deals 1d6+6 damage, and I get the level 9 and 11 abilities (Resist 20 fire, spells: Protection from Energy, Elemental Body I, and some summoning crap). However, Primal is a good bloodline for dishing out extra damage, but I don't like having a useless level 9 power

Primal Bloodline + Fire Spells deals ridic amounts of damage. A scorching ray that hits 3 times deals like, 12d6+12 + sneak. in a round I could feasibly empower a scorching Ray (18d6+18 + Sneak) and follow it with a quickened Scorching Ray (12d6+12+Sneak)

I wanted to make one of my traits Magical Lineage (Scorching Ray) but i already had reactionary and magical Knack. APG says that you cannot have 2 traits from the same category, even if you take the Additional Traits feat. I could see why honestly.

[CTrees]

You can always ask for fractional BAB. I mean, can't hurt to try.

Honestly, the BAB is what bugs me the most about AT. I always thought it should get the rogue progession. It *is* supposed to be able to hit things, by design, rather than hitting LESS often than a wizard, with standard builds.

[Zolthux]

You can always ask for fractional BAB. I mean, can't hurt to try.

Honestly, the BAB is what bugs me the most about AT. I always thought it should get the rogue progession. It *is* supposed to be able to hit things, by design, rather than hitting LESS often than a wizard, with standard builds.

I know my DM, she wont allow it.

as for the 1/2 BAB prog, i think it's cos AT is supposed to catch opponents flat flooted and hit with touch spells, making their AC stupid low

[Waker]

Have you considered the Ninja class as a replacement for the Rogue levels? One of the big changes that they made to the class was allowing the use of light armor and the switch from Wis to Cha for the Ki Pool. If you grabbed the Forgotten Trick you would have access to the majority of the ninja tricks (for 3 rounds only, but that is often enough).
Your Ki Pool would be 1/2 Ninja lvl + Cha. Don't forget that Ki can also be used to gain an extra attack, enhance move speed and increase stealth.

[ericgrau]

Trying to hit on a 2 here.
Shoot for a +9. Not much has more than 11 touch AC after losing dex; you're looking at 20 AC in extremely rare situations which you can at least still hit. There might be trade-offs depending on how viable you want this at low levels vs. not wasting resources at high levels. Don't forget the +2 you often get from various sneak attack methods. Between a 16 dex, point blank shot, your alchemist fire focus and size bonus you can hit +9 by rogue 3, which means you don't need weapon focus. Even a 14 dex might be an option.

Tricks like your alchemist fire focus idea are great at low levels. +1s are extremely valuable when you aren't hitting on a 2. At low levels I'd burn the alchemist fire like water, so to speak, against all but slow moving giants. You won't have much else so valuable to blow 1,000 gp on anyway. I wouldn't blow a feat on this as buying even 50 of them won't break your bank and I doubt you'll need so many right away. By skipping the feat you have a low level solution that won't cost you anything at high levels when you no longer need it.

Getting 2 rays per round is extremely valuable. I'd get quicken spell the moment you can cast 4th level spells, i.e. arcane trickster 1, and quicken your cantrips. You can't trade move actions for swift actions, so I think armor is out unless you find another way. As it happens this is the same level you can greater invisibility yourself, so you're almost guaranteed dual sneak attacks. I've saved you 3 useless feats so getting spontaneous metafocus and quicken spell earlier shouldn't be hard. Maybe even getting spontaneous metafocus twice: on a cantrip early on and scorching ray later.

Fire is a good choice for a primary energy type to get the most damage but do carry 1-2 spells of secondary energy types in case you face fire immune baddies. Also consider other awesome rays like [empowered] enervation and maybe [empowered] ray of enfeeblement but PF nerfed it downed to half effect against anything that matters b/c massive debuffs are mainly for BBEGs. You still get sneak attack in the form of negative energy damage.

SR starts appearing around level 10 so if you can manage greater spell penetration earlier it would be nice. One possible replacement level 17 feat might be maximize, so you can empower maximize your rays as 7th level spells.

[Paul H]

Hi

I understand why you went Halfling - bonus to both dex & cha, but what about Gnome?

Pyromaniac is a Gnome Alternate racial trait. (APG). Grants +1 CL to Fire spells/some abilities, plus changes the standard SLA to fire based ones, including Produce Flame. The Cl can be greater than your HD using this.

Thanks
Paul H
PS And I'd go Crossblooded Archetype with Draconic & Elemental (Fire) Bloodlines. Sure, penalty to Will saves, but convert all elemental damage to Fire, increase CL by one and add +1 dam/dam dice.
PPS You get the Arcan from both bloodlines, but choose spells known/feats/etc from one or other bloddline as you level. (So you don't have to have the claws ability)

[Zolthux]

Hi

I understand why you went Halfling - bonus to both dex & cha, but what about Gnome?

Pyromaniac is a Gnome Alternate racial trait. (APG). Grants +1 CL to Fire spells/some abilities, plus changes the standard SLA to fire based ones, including Produce Flame. The Cl can be greater than your HD using this.

Thanks
Paul H
PS And I'd go Crossblooded Archetype with Draconic & Elemental (Fire) Bloodlines. Sure, penalty to Will saves, but convert all elemental damage to Fire, increase CL by one and add +1 dam/dam dice.
PPS You get the Arcan from both bloodlines, but choose spells known/feats/etc from one or other bloodline as you level. (So you don't have to have the claws ability)

I saw gnome. And I like gnome, but Halflings can give up surefooted to reduce stealth penalties whilst moving by 5 and sniping stealth penalty by 10 (Does it work with magic?)

The Crossblooding thing was what originally made me want to build a character like this, but then i felt like I was dropping my will save AND spells known, so it felt like I was giving up way too much.

And btw, Elemental (Primal) + Draconic = +2 to each die i roll for my fire damage. muahahahaha

[Ravens_cry]

And lose one spell known (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/crossblooded) per level. That's . . .very nasty. Admittedly, a arcane trickster doesn't need to many offensive spells, but you still want some good utility ones to ensure sneak attack, like blink and greater invisibility.
Edit: Arcane Trickster-ed!
Editing EDIT: And sneak attack dice are the damage type dealt, such as fire damage. Muwa-haha-ha, indeed.

[ericgrau]

That wouldn't be so bad if they didn't only get one spell known on even levels. So they're nearly one caster level behind for the purpose of gaining spells known. That usually decreases damage overall, probably not worth it. I forgot about cover problems so unless he finds a way around that he needs a +13 attack bonus to hit reliably early on. Gnome might still be worth it for the extra fire damage, but it's a trade-off until higher levels.

[Paul H]

Hi

Forgot the fewer spells known. That would be the killer for me, not the will save penalty.

Still like the Gnome, though. Produce Flame (SLA) uses total HD as caster level! :P

Thanks
Paul H

[Zolthux]

Hi

Forgot the fewer spells known. That would be the killer for me, not the will save penalty.

Still like the Gnome, though. Produce Flame (SLA) uses total HD as caster level! :P

Thanks
Paul H

Produce flame is nice, it's like a last resort if i run out of spells and rays lol...didn't think of that.

so what do you guys think in general, Pyromaniac gnome? or Evasive as Shadows Halfling

[ericgrau]

Earlier scorching rays average out to an extra d6 until the spell caps, then there's not much use. But at the same level you no longer need the halfling's higher dex to hit either. So it's a matter of a +1 to hit vs. another d6. Hmm, probably ~6% more hits early on vs. 3.5 more damage. 3.5 is 6% of 58 so unless you're doing more than 58 total damage at low levels the gnome is probably better. The extra HP doesn't hurt either, albeit at 1 less AC.

Turbo stealth has its utility uses, but they're limited in most campaigns. It'd be nice in a full party of rogues but not as much in the standard mixed party.

[Zolthux]

Earlier scorching rays average out to an extra d6 until the spell caps, then there's not much use. But at the same level you no longer need the halfling's higher dex to hit either. So it's a matter of a +1 to hit vs. another d6. Hmm, probably ~6% more hits early on vs. 3.5 more damage. 3.5 is 6% of 58 so unless you're doing more than 58 total damage at low levels the gnome is probably better. The extra HP doesn't hurt either, albeit at 1 less AC.

Turbo stealth has its utility uses, but they're limited in most campaigns. It'd be nice in a full party of rogues but not as much in the standard mixed party.

All very valid points...Gnome seems to be the best choice...Extra HP is very nice when you have a class with d6 HD after all.

Someone mentioned dropping Arcane Armor training and master alchemist, and I totally agree with that.

[Zolthux]

So if I drop 3 feats (though I'd like to keep weapon focus [Ray] still), what else are good feats? I was thinking Defensive Combat Training. Getting grappled means you're boned usually. And you never know what else having a high CMD might be useful for.

Edit: sorry for double post

[Drelua]

How about Improved Critical (Ray)? They only threaten on a 20, but doubling that would still probably help a fair bit.

[Zolthux]

How about Improved Critical (Ray)? They only threaten on a 20, but doubling that would still probably help a fair bit.

needs+8 BAB, cant get the feat till like lv 17 :(

[Ravens_cry]

If your DM is open to custom magic items, an item that grants improved critical, for about the same as the cost of adding keen to a +1 weapon or even masterwork would be fair.

[Zolthux]

If your DM is open to custom magic items, an item that grants improved critical, for about the same as the cost of adding keen to a +1 weapon or even masterwork would be fair.

We're trying to stay away from house ruling stuff :-/

[Zolthux]

So after going through some revisions, I realized that even though I want Quicken and Empower spell ASAP, Spontaneous Metafocus is such a good feat that I need to cram it in before level 13. (The assumption is that I get empower spell and quicken spell at levels 10 and 11 latest).

Since one of the prereqs is a metamagic feat, i looked into MM feats that up the casting level by 1. The feats i saw that caught my attention were Elemental, Piercing, and silent spell.

Piercing Spell gets really good later on when I've to deal with pesky SR creatures. When combined with Pyromaniac, Spell Pen and Greater Spell Pen, I have a +10 to my caster level check to overcome SR.

Elemental Spell (Cold) allows me to deal with fire immune creatures by turning their strength into a huge weakness.

Silent spell is silent spell.

So now, what we have for feats is as follows:


1 Point Blank Shot
2 Bonus Feat: Precise Shot
3 Toughness
4 Bonus Feat: Eschew Materials
5 Improved Initiative
7 Elemental Spell (cold)
9 Spontaneous Metafocus (Scorching Ray)
10 Bonus Feat: Empower Spell
11 Quicken Spell
13 Piercing Spell
15 Spell Penetration
17 Maximize Spell
19 Greater Spell Penetration

I'm trying to order them so I don't wind up with dead feats. Elemental Spell (Cold) will probably not see much use till later, at which point will be spammed against fire resistant/vulnerable creatures with scorching Ray. Still, I wish i could have fit defensive combat training or combat casting, but nonetheless this build has more damage-dealing options with the spells and metamagics.

[Ravens_cry]

You could take one level of sorcerer for the crossblooded double arcana and then take wizard for the spells for arcane trickster and still have the arcanas apply to all your fire spells.

[ericgrau]

I just checked Pathfinder quicken and, unlike other metamagics, it doesn't increase the casting time. Furthermore you can apply it in combination with another metamagic and it's still a swift. So while spontaneous metafocus is kind of nice for getting your move actions, it isn't necessary.

Piercing spell was a wonderful idea on a spontaneous caster for handling SR. You might want to get knowledge planes and arcana and make rolls to see if various monsters have SR so you know when to use it. Maybe without metafocus (or with later metafocus) you could bump up that feat along with the spell penetrations.

[Paul H]

Hi

Isn't there a Spell Focus (Fire) feat somewhere?

Thanks
Paul H

[Zolthux]

Hi

Isn't there a Spell Focus (Fire) feat somewhere?

Thanks
Paul H

There IS Spell Focus, but AFAIK it's for schools only, which would make it Spell Focus (Evocation). However, That's only useful for spells which allow saves.

While I do plan on using Stuff like Fireball later on (Think about it, Evasion + Resist 20 Fire, I can fireball myself to make everything around me go boom, I don't think it's worth it.

@Eric: I wanted to have SM early on so i can move around and shoot my spells, but I suppose i can better rely on 5 foot step -> blast if I'm going to be that close up. I could move Spontaneous Meta for later then.

I like spontaneous casters because oftentimes, which spell to cast and which metamagic feat to add is a gamble. Unless you had time to scry in advance to see what's ahead, you have to work around things to make sure your spells work as you intend. I personally prefer making my spells work for me, which is why i like the (albeit limited) versatility of sorcerers.

[ericgrau]

The benefits of mobility might depend on your party and the encounters, so I can't say. I suppose you can see how it goes and later change your feat selection accordingly. Spider climb, levitate and/or fly are also considerations. It's just that you have so many other good options too.

[Zolthux]

Hmm...I was looking to more spells from other books, and I came across Vanish. LV1 spell that functions as invisibility for 1round/level or so.

I'm thinking that on a pinch, I could use a lv5 spell slot to cast a quicken vanish, and follow it up with an empowered Scorching Ray, or something amongst those lines.

So next revision on feats:


1 Point Blank Shot
2 Bonus Feat: Precise Shot
3 Toughness
4 Bonus Feat: Eschew Materials
5 Improved Initiative
7 Defensive Combat Training
9 Piercing Spell
10 Bonus Feat: Empower Spell
11 Quicken Spell
13 Spontaneous Metafocus (Scorching Ray)
15 Spell Penetration
17 Maximize Spell
19 Greater Spell Penetration

As I mentioned before, I chose Defensive Combat Training because my CMD sucks. I also thought I could get Combat Casting since it seems more useful (Although shooting rays provokes)

[ericgrau]

Eh without any strength and a small size your CMD will still suck even with the feat. And you need a decent dex only at low levels for anything else. Better to stay in the back and hope for the best, then have an ally free you if you get caught. If you're lucky enough to see it ahead of time then you can grease people or fly or whatever negates the particular attack. Combat casting is more likely to be useful, and once you get 4th level spells it combines well with dimension door for escaping serious trouble. Again assuming staying in the back and booming harder isn't better.

That's minor. You're more or less set though, IMO.

[Zolthux]

yeah that should pretty much be minor. I was also leaning towards combat casting just because it seems more useful overall.

[Zolthux]

Anyway, now that feats and abilities have been established, next step are the spells. I'm not very familiar with spells from non CRB books, but I can use spells from APG, UM, and UC

In no real particular order,

Cantrips
Acid Splash
Mage Hand,
Ghost Sound,
Message
Ray of Frost
Dancing Lights
Prestidigitation
Detect Magic

Level 1
Vanish
Grease
Mage Armor
Shield
True Strike
Ray of Enfeeblement
Feather Fall (after I have access to spells like Fly and Overland Flight...useful utility Spell)
Floating Disk (See above)
Unseen Servant (See above)
Silent Image (Can i use this to stealth? I think so)


Level 2

Web
Pilfering Hand
Cat's Grace
Acid Arrow
Scorching Ray (Free bloodline spell)
Darkness
Darkvision
Mirror Image
False Life
Spider Climb
See Invisibility

Level 3
Heroism
Fireball
Ray of Exhaustion
Haste
Dispel Magic
Chain of Perdition
Lightning Bolt

Level 4
Greater Invisibility
Enervation
Black Tentacles
Dimension Door
Dragon's Breath (From APG)
Obsidian Flow

Level 5
Overland Flight
Waves of Fatigue
Telekenisis

Level 6
Contagious Flame
Greater Dispel Magic
Greater Heroism
Chain Lightning
Disintegrate
Power Word: Blind
Waves of Exhaustion
Tar Pool

Level 7
Grasping Hand
Project Image
Greater Teleport

Level 8
Mind Blank
Polar Ray

[ericgrau]

APG gives you vanish, which is a sweet round/day version of invisibility but at level 1. As a rogue/sorcerer I'm surprised you didn't at least consider invisibility. Besides brief scouting and a guaranteed surprise round, vanish is a low cost method of escape. Mostly your spells seem good, though. Looks like you have all the essentials. You can always get the level 1-2 utility/situational spells on scrolls if you need the spell known for something more generally useful. As you level up you can start swapping out low level combat spells in favor of buffs and utility, except for the spells you want to empower/quicken

[Zolthux]

yeah invisibility is nice and all, but i figured i could get ahold of a ring of invisibility at some point and rely on greater invisibility when in combat.

Usually a quickened vanish followed by a deny dex spell helps set up for double sneak next round.

As for putting spells in scrolls...what is the DC for UMD for a spell i dont know in a scroll? would it be better to just use a wand?

Also, i was planning on getting a few rings later on: one of wizardry (II) and one of invisiblity, which hopefully will cover many of my needs

[ericgrau]

If it's on the sorcerer spell list you can use the scroll whether you know it or not. You need UMD only for spells not on the sorcerer spell list. Scrolls are nice.

A ring of invisibility is 20,000 gp. I thought as a rogue you might want invisibility a bit sooner, but depends on your style. You don't have to be sneaky.

[Zolthux]

yeah, scrolls are pretty sweet then.

Although Invisibility is awesome, I know there are other ways to get sneak. Grease and Web come to mind. Plus creating illusions and hiding behind them

[ericgrau]

I meant for scouting and what not, only if that's your style.

[Zolthux]

Updated OP with the suggestions and such :D

[Zolthux]

One last post I want to make before this thread sinks into oblivion:

Are there any Pathfinder rulebooks that talk about the following issues:

- Sneak attack and Scorching Ray at level 11: One or three sneak attacks?

- Sneak Enervation: 1d4 drain or 1d4+Xd6 sneak negative energy drain?

- Empowered Enervation: 1d4 + ???

- Primal (or draconic) bloodline + sneak attack matching its energy type: extra damage? I think one of the books says that sneak attack is the same type of damage as originally dealt, so since the damage was a fire spell, would i get to add +1 to each sneak attack die?

[ericgrau]

Dunno about PF but 3.5 says sneak attack only on first ray of scorching ray. Still a lot of damage on a touch.

1d4 levels drained + Xd6 negative energy HP damage sneak attack

Empowered Enervation = (1d4) x 1.5 negative levels + Xd6 negative energy HP damage sneak attack

[Larpus]

There IS Spell Focus, but AFAIK it's for schools only, which would make it Spell Focus (Evocation). However, That's only useful for spells which allow saves.

While I do plan on using Stuff like Fireball later on (Think about it, Evasion + Resist 20 Fire, I can fireball myself to make everything around me go boom, I don't think it's worth it.
A bit of topic backtrack, but there might actually be a Spell Focus (Fire) because Fire is a valid school of magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/elemental-arcane-schools).

[Zolthux]

A bit of topic backtrack, but there might actually be a Spell Focus (Fire) because Fire is a valid school of magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/elemental-arcane-schools).

yeah i noticed that was on the APG. SO I suppose that you can do school focus (Evocation and elemental focus Fire. You could, in theory, take Elemental Focus + Greater Elemental Focus + Spell Focus + Greater Spell Focus (Evocation) and like, make youre fireball DC +4....But is it worth it?