A world without the Rifts (SoD and OtOoP's spoilers)

[FujinAkari]

Hey all! Just posted a fairly random comment in a thread about remaking the world and it got me to thinking... just what WOULD happen if the Rifts had never existed?

So here are my guesses :)

Roy Graduated Fighter College and forms his own mercenary group, is very successful in his role and ends up fairly wealthy (though not as much as Eugene.) Never goes to the Dungeon of Durokan and never meets Celia. Potentially dates sporatically but never finds 'the one.' May pursue Xykon, but there is a decent chance he is dead by old age, or that Eugene already got him (see below.)

Durkon: Never leaves his dwarven homeland. Without the gates, would never bring doom upon his people by returning, and so the prophesy is never created.

Haley: Joins Roy's mercenary group and becomes second in command. Takes far longer to raise the funds for her father since Roy would likely be much less understanding, merely taking jobs for money rather than as a personal quest. May not ever get to know Elan well enough to act on her feelings.

Elan: Joins Roy's mercenary group but, if Xykon isn't an issue, likely is not asked to re-enlist at the end of their first job. May die an early death since, if he isn't able to stick with Roy, whomever he is with will likely consider him not worth the effort once Nale shows up.

Joins Roy's mercenary group and happily sticks around with each new job. May eventually be killed by Nale if Nale is smart enough to strike Elan between contracts (in this world the group would splinter apart until Roy found a new job for them) but unlikely, Nale is too egotistical to think he wouldn't be able to take down Roy & co and then would HAVE to defeat them all.

Vaarsuvius: Dragged into Roy's company by Haley but finds the XP rewards much more rewarding than studying, so stays for the long-haul. Never kills the baby dragon and so never achieves Ultimate Arcane Power. Eventually returns to his mate and littles, annoyed with himself but choosing to refocus his energies on them.

Belkar: Joins Roy's company and doubtless quits after a single mission, fed up with Roy's rules about not killing Elan. Roy makes no effort to retain him, siince the group is going back to a big city to collect payment anyway and replacing the halfling is thus a viable option. Goes on a halfling rampage throughout the world until he eventually meets a violent end.

Xykon: Never meets Redcloak and never goes after Lirian's gate, runs about and has fun being a menace until eventually Eugene catches up with him or he dies of old age.

Redcloak: Serves the Dark One but is never attacked as a child. Eventually puts his effort into improving the lives of Goblins and, with his intellegence, likely discovers crop rotations or the like to make life a little less unbearable for him and his.

Monster-san: Goes through life as a circus performer, getting taco night once a week and being very content with his life, but never finds enlightenment through O-chul.

Tsukiko: Likely executed by Azure City.

Sapphire Guard Paladins: The Sapphire Guard is never created, and most of them, with a strong drive to protect people and do the right thing, likely end up as part of the City Guard. O-chul and Lien likely rise to command positions and may have intermidant contact with Shojo and Hinjo.

Shojo: Does not get killed by Miko and never meets the Order, lives his life amidst a web of deceit and eventually gets caught and removed from command, succeeded by Hinjo.

Hinjo: Even less able to lead, having never led the Sapphire guard. Likely unable to cope with the mantle of leadership and so probably gets easily manipulated by the nobles, ironically becoming the bumbling leader which Shojo pretended to be.

Miko: Never recruited into the Guard by Shojo, Miko doesn't grow up with the promise of some great destiny, nor does she devote her life to living up to Shojo's expection. Likely still abrasive and unpopular, but unlikely to actually go crazy.

Nale, Sabine, and Thog: Still meet up and may even try to ingratiate themselves to Durokan for the Amulet, but are unlikely successful. Will eventually go after Elan, who is basically a sitting duck if he isn't still with Roy.

ZZ'diri: Never May not be recruited by Nale, not enough information on how or why they met to speculate.

Hilgya: Never meets Durkon, trys to steal the amulet but is also likely unsuccessful.

Eugene: Successfully tracks down and destroys Xykon, since Xykon would likely ally with the lizardfolk in SoD. and be much easier to locate, thus Eugene has actually made it into Celestia.

Celia: Never hired by Durokan to guard a Sigil within the Dungeon which he never built, Celia ends up working in some other dead end job somewhere and never gets to meet Roy. She eventually quits said job (she was considering doing it in Riftworld) but can only get hired as a copygirl in the lawfirm of Jones & Rodriguez.

Order of the Scribble: Honestly, we know so little about them, and everything we DO know involve the rifts, that it is impossible to say.

Cliffport Chief of Police STILL ALIVE!



Thats it for me, through in yuor arguments, additions, and speculations below :)

[mrmcfatty]

the funny thing is i was thinking the same thing and was going to post it in that what if thread but decided not to :P i like that the chief is still alive, he died so young. i havent read OtOoP's yet, why i havent ordered it yet is beyond me, so i wont comment on them.

Without the Sapphire guard the goblins wouldnt be killed as often so i assume the Dark One would still have a plan but it wouldnt be as great as one with the snarl. although making them on equal terms with humans, elves, etc i think is still plausible.

I dont think that Shojo would be of any real importance since he isnt trying to stop the rifts from being controlled. The main reason he ruled was because he was a decedent of Soon. So i see Hinjo as being much more likely as a ruler and possibly doing an okay job at it for the most part.

As far as Nale and co. they didnt even know of Elan before going to Durokan's dungeon so it may have been several more years before they even met, provided elan even stayed alive.

[FujinAkari]

I dont think that Shojo would be of any real importance since he isnt trying to stop the rifts from being controlled. The main reason he ruled was because he was a decedent of Soon. So i see Hinjo as being much more likely as a ruler and possibly doing an okay job at it for the most part.

Yeah, that is a really good question.

Soon build the Azure City Castle and founded the Sapphire Guard, which implies Azure City used to be much smaller, likely a town or village and Soon used his money from the Scribble Adventures to built it up into what it is (was?)

So if the Scribble Adventures never happened, would Azure City even really exist? Without more details about the Scribblenaughts, it is difficult to say but... probably not?

[Holy_Knight]

Elan: Joins Roy's mercenary group but, if Xykon isn't an issue, likely is not asked to re-enlist at the end of their first job. May die an early death since, if he isn't able to stick with Roy, whomever he is with will likely consider him not worth the effort once Nale shows up.

Hinjo: Even less able to lead, having never led the Sapphire guard. Likely unable to cope with the mantle of leadership and so probably gets easily manipulated by the nobles, ironically becoming the bumbling leader which Shojo pretended to be.

I disagree on these two. Remember that after they fought Xykon for the first time, no one knew about the rifts and Roy thought Xykon was defeated. Yet he didn't try to "fire" Elan, but allowed him to come along on the starmetal sidequest. (Yes, he did try to abandon him during that quest, but he also repented of that and stuck with Elan afterward, all while still not knowing about the rifts.) This also suggests that Elan and Haley may have still ended up together, since they would still have had a lot of time together.

As for Hinjo, without the Sapphire Guard, it's probable that he would serve Azure City in some other capacity, just as you say O-Chul and Lien would. Given that, it does't make sense to assume that he'd necessarily fail to acquire leadership experience or ability.

[Morty]

I think that without the rifts, the Dark One would still have some plans to uplift his people. So So Redcloak's life might not be so peaceful... of course, without the paladins' attack on his village, he might never recieve the Crimson Mantle. And even without Dark One's plans, a group of adventurers might still have decided to earn some XP.

[Goosefarble]

I for one doubt Xykon would die "of old age" as you put it. As he says himself to Darth Vaarsuvius, "Be a vampire, or a ghost, or an immortal with a point-by-numbers portrait in the rec room. Hell, even a brain-in-a-jar, in a pinch. Anything to avoid the Big Fire Below." Which would suggest that even if he hadn't been attacked by that virus thing or whatever it is (*has not read SOD*), he would've still chosen to become a Lich.

Can't say as to what would've happened with Eugene, though. Really, probably the same thing - he would've given up, like he did in this Universe, and Roy would've gone after him. It's just that they wouldn't have fought in the Dungeon of Dorukan.

[Kish]

I for one doubt Xykon would die "of old age" as you put it. As he says himself to Darth Vaarsuvius, "Be a vampire, or a ghost, or an immortal with a point-by-numbers portrait in the rec room. Hell, even a brain-in-a-jar, in a pinch. Anything to avoid the Big Fire Below." Which would suggest that even if he hadn't been attacked by that virus thing or whatever it is (*has not read SOD*), he would've still chosen to become a Lich.

Considering he was already well into Venerable, wasn't making any efforts in the direction of extending his life, was thinking in terms of leaving a legacy for after he was gone, and didn't have the first clue what a lich was until Redcloak suggested it to him, it suggests, rather, that Xykon was being a great big hypocrite in his speech to Vaarsuvius.

[FujinAkari]

I disagree on these two. Remember that after they fought Xykon for the first time, no one knew about the rifts and Roy thought Xykon was defeated. Yet he didn't try to "fire" Elan, but allowed him to come along on the starmetal sidequest. (Yes, he did try to abandon him during that quest, but he also repented of that and stuck with Elan afterward, all while still not knowing about the rifts.) This also suggests that Elan and Haley may have still ended up together, since they would still have had a lot of time together.

I reread 139 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0139.html) and agree with you, Roy shows no sign of leaving Elan. And Belkar shows no sign of wanting to stay. Roy lies to keep him in the group, but that seems to be because he wants to reforge his sword and doesn't want to find a replacement, but without Xykon then his sword is probably intact, so Belkar would likely be allowed to leave.


As for Hinjo, without the Sapphire Guard, it's probable that he would serve Azure City in some other capacity, just as you say O-Chul and Lien would. Given that, it does't make sense to assume that he'd necessarily fail to acquire leadership experience or ability.

Oh, I think he'd gain some, but not enough. He would likely become Captain of the Guard and do much of the same things as he did as Leader of the Sapphire Guard, but without the actual quests and campaigns, and those are where most of his levels came from, so losing them would absolutely weaken him as an eventual leader.


I for one doubt Xykon would die "of old age" as you put it. As he says himself to Darth Vaarsuvius, "Be a vampire, or a ghost, or an immortal with a point-by-numbers portrait in the rec room. Hell, even a brain-in-a-jar, in a pinch. Anything to avoid the Big Fire Below." Which would suggest that even if he hadn't been attacked by that virus thing or whatever it is (*has not read SOD*), he would've still chosen to become a Lich.

Can't say as to what would've happened with Eugene, though. Really, probably the same thing - he would've given up, like he did in this Universe, and Roy would've gone after him. It's just that they wouldn't have fought in the Dungeon of Dorukan.

Ah, but the -reason- Eugene gave up is because Xykon fell off the map for several years, something he wouldn't have done if Redcloak hadn't given him a reason to focus on something. I think without the Rifts Eugene would have found Xykon and completed the blood oath, leaving Roy running a mercenary company rather than forming the OOTS for his own reasons :)

Also, Xykon can't choose to become a Lich, Redcloak was the one with the procedure and Liches are extremely rare! He may have opted to do something else though...

[Whiffet]

Are we assuming Dorukan still crafted the talisman in this world? After all, as you noted, we don't have the information to reasonably guess the fates of the Scribblers.

I do think we can guess the Dungeon of Dorukan doesn't exist, though. If the talisman does, it's somewhere else.

[SoC175]

Haley: Joins Roy's mercenary group and becomes second in command. Takes far longer to raise the funds for her father since Roy would likely be much less understanding, merely taking jobs for money rather than as a personal quest. May not ever get to know Elan well enough to act on her feelings.

Elan: Joins Roy's mercenary group but, if Xykon isn't an issue, likely is not asked to re-enlist at the end of their first job. May die an early death since, if he isn't able to stick with Roy, whomever he is with will likely consider him not worth the effort once Nale shows up.

Joins Roy's mercenary group and happily sticks around with each new job. May eventually be killed by Nale if Nale is smart enough to strike Elan between contracts (in this world the group would splinter apart until Roy found a new job for them) but unlikely, Nale is too egotistical to think he wouldn't be able to take down Roy & co and then would HAVE to defeat them all.

Vaarsuvius: Dragged into Roy's company by Haley but finds the XP rewards much more rewarding than studying, so stays for the long-haul. Never kills the baby dragon and so never achieves Ultimate Arcane Power. Eventually returns to his mate and littles, annoyed with himself but choosing to refocus his energies on them.
If Roy had finished his fighter college instead of leaving earlier to from his party he would have never met Haley, Elan and V

[FujinAkari]

Are we assuming Dorukan still crafted the talisman in this world? After all, as you noted, we don't have the information to reasonably guess the fates of the Scribblers.

I do think we can guess the Dungeon of Dorukan doesn't exist, though. If the talisman does, it's somewhere else.

I am. I have no idea why he created the Talisman, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the rifts, directly, so I am assuming it is simply a treasure he had.

And I agree, thats why I say things like Nale may have tried to ingratiate himself with Durokan, nothing about the Dungeon :)


If Roy had finished his fighter college instead of leaving earlier to from his party he would have never met Haley, Elan and V

Oooh, yuck. That is a very good point, I had forgotten he left early... but I thought he did get his M.B.A? I'll have to check again when I get home :)

[Hiro Protagonest]

If Roy had finished his fighter college instead of leaving earlier to from his party he would have never met Haley, Elan and V

Xykon didn't know a thing about the gates when Eugene took the blood oath. Roy would've still formed the party, and would've still gone after Xykon for some other world domination scheme.

[FujinAkari]

Xykon didn't know a thing about the gates when Eugene took the blood oath. Roy would've still formed the party, and would've still gone after Xykon for some other world domination scheme.

Except that, if Xykon hadn't disappeared while preparing to move on Lirian's Gate (and instead allied with the lizard tribe to make war on humans), then Eugene would have found him. Roy would have no reason to hunt him.

Also the whole... most likely died of old age by the time Roy is finishing fighter college anyway... thing...

[Anarion]

Considering he was already well into Venerable, wasn't making any efforts in the direction of extending his life, was thinking in terms of leaving a legacy for after he was gone, and didn't have the first clue what a lich was until Redcloak suggested it to him, it suggests, rather, that Xykon was being a great big hypocrite in his speech to Vaarsuvius.

I agree that Xykon's actions were hypocritical when dealing with Vaasrsuvius, but keep in mind that becoming a lich alters the mental ability scores of the subject. Based on the change in personality in SoD as well as Redcloak's comments in various strips throughout the online comic, I think that rather than being hypocritical per se, Xykon's philosophy actively changed once he became a lich, leading to him being comfortable giving his lecture to V from the perspective of "now I know better."


Except that, if Xykon hadn't disappeared while preparing to move on Lirian's Gate (and instead allied with the lizard tribe to make war on humans), then Eugene would have found him. Roy would have no reason to hunt him.

Also the whole... most likely died of old age by the time Roy is finishing fighter college anyway... thing...

I'm not all that clear on whether Eugene would have been able to beat Xykon. Mortal Xykon was already pretty strong and had no trouble flying around attacking random fortresses of paladins. He even made a fair go against Lirian and might have won the first time around if not for the disease.

I'd write it something like this:
Xykon: Meets Eugene near the end of his life. Defeats Eugene and the entire party of adventurers, but is severely injured during the fighting. This brush with his own mortality (which he had never seriously considered despite his age) leads him to seek out someone who can extend his lifespan, leading Xykon to become a lich, as in the current timeline. Lacking a particular plan, he just goes around the world blasting good guys, acquiring an army and eventually making a go at being a regular conqueror. Without Azure City in place, Xykon probably goes after one of the eight kingdoms in the middle of the continent, while Roy still forms his adventuring party and goes after Xykon.

[Gift Jeraff]

Azure City has territory outside of the city. I doubt it would get so big in less than 66 years just because of a big palace, an organization the public doesn't even know about, and adventuring loot. Where is this "Soon made it what it is today" notion coming from?

EDIT: And look at Azure City before the castle was built (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html). A huddled up collection of buildings, and we know it's by a port. I'd say that's a city.

[Nevereatcars]

I'll have to check the Phantasm's sig, but wasn't Azure Castle already there?

EDIT:




And Azure City existed for a long time before Soon. Only the castle was built by him.

[Whiffet]

I'm not all that clear on whether Eugene would have been able to beat Xykon. Mortal Xykon was already pretty strong and had no trouble flying around attacking random fortresses of paladins. He even made a fair go against Lirian and might have won the first time around if not for the disease.

I'd write it something like this:
Xykon: Meets Eugene near the end of his life. Defeats Eugene and the entire party of adventurers, but is severely injured during the fighting. This brush with his own mortality (which he had never seriously considered despite his age) leads him to seek out someone who can extend his lifespan, leading Xykon to become a lich, as in the current timeline. Lacking a particular plan, he just goes around the world blasting good guys, acquiring an army and eventually making a go at being a regular conqueror. Without Azure City in place, Xykon probably goes after one of the eight kingdoms in the middle of the continent, while Roy still forms his adventuring party and goes after Xykon.

Does Eugene know someone who would have been willing to recover his body after his entire party was defeated? Because if not, he doesn't get resurrected and Roy won't exist at all.

[FujinAkari]

Does Eugene know someone who would have been willing to recover his body after his entire party was defeated? Because if not, he doesn't get resurrected and Roy won't exist at all.

Uh... yes? Eugene is the most powerful Illusionist in the world... (Except for Girard, who was paranoid and didn't compete)

I also think you are severely over-estimating Xykon's power here... remember Eugene's mentor beat him by himself... so assuming Eugene's WHOLE PARTY couldn't seems like a stretch.

[Anarion]

Does Eugene know someone who would have been willing to recover his body after his entire party was defeated? Because if not, he doesn't get resurrected and Roy won't exist at all.


Uh... yes? Eugene is the most powerful Illusionist in the world... (Except for Girard, who was paranoid and didn't compete)

I also think you are severely over-estimating Xykon's power here... remember Eugene's mentor beat him by himself... so assuming Eugene's WHOLE PARTY couldn't seems like a stretch.

Doh, I wasn't paying any attention to the timing of different events:smallredface:.

I guess my answer to these points is that it depends. Eugene did win a magazine award, but there were probably a number of secretive wizards who did not compete (e.g. Aarindarius, members of Tarquin's party), so it's hard to tell where Eugene fits on the spectrum of overall wizardly power. It's also hard to say whether a lower-level party would fare better or worse than one high level character against Xykon. Energy drain makes a party look attractive, but mass hold person means that if the characters didn't have high enough saves, Xykon wins in one round.

Considering all the dates listed on Eugenes gravestone, I think there were people around to resurrect him, so nothing to worry about there.

The biggest factor would be when Eugene found Xykon. Xykon seems to have grown in power faster than many other characters, so at the end of his life as a level 20+ sorcerer with a build tailored for wrecking a wizard and his associates and a fortress with his own minions somewhere, Xykon probably would beat Eugene and his party. On the other hand, if Eugene found Xykon shortly after he started looking, then his party would have stood a good chance.

[Blisstake]

Tsukiko: Likely executed by Azure City.

I think she was just serving a jail sentence. She's probably smart enough not to get captured a second time.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I think she was just serving a jail sentence. She's probably smart enough not to get captured a second time.

She was in jail for a capital offence. We don't have a clear indicator of what kind of punishment that warrants but I'd say the minimum is an extremly long stay in jail. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200.

[Kish]

The biggest factor would be when Eugene found Xykon. Xykon seems to have grown in power faster than many other characters, so at the end of his life as a level 20+ sorcerer with a build tailored for wrecking a wizard and his associates and a fortress with his own minions somewhere, Xykon probably would beat Eugene and his party. On the other hand, if Eugene found Xykon shortly after he started looking, then his party would have stood a good chance.
I can't see any reason the absence of the Rifts would change the course of events with Xykon and Eugene. Eugene would look for Xykon for a while, find Xyklon the Consequential, and declare he was no longer interested in looking. If one of Xykon's minions tried to persuade him to go after Xykon again later, he'd refuse.
She was in jail for a capital offence.
No, she specifically wasn't. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html)

[Raistlin82]

ZZ'diri: Never recruited by Nale, pure speculation what he ends up doing.
This whole thread is pure speculation.
Might as well try something.

Btw, the idea that, by coincidence, Roy, Elan and Haley still find each other sounds forced. It's a typical example of what "alternate reality" writers shouldn't do. And remember that Roy recruited them after an important and enlightening adventure with Durkon. If he never had to fulfill a prophecy, and if he never had to split from the other party (assuming he joined them in the first place) because of Durkon, nor to find allies at that specific moment, searching in one place while Durkon was searching in another place... he would have never found Elan, Haley, V and Belkar. It couldn't be simpler.

V sticking with Haley makes sense, though.

Also, assuming Roy ever gets to meet Belkar (see above), why would Roy kick Belkar away from the team for his violent attitude if the gates weren't there? I don't see how the two things are related. We know that Roy didn't kick him, long before he knew about the gates (so, the possible "lesser of two evils" excuse doesn't work either).

Similarly to the OotS, I don't understand why some members of the Linear Guild (Nale, Sabine and Thog) find each other, and some don't. If I got your idea right, you're assuming that Nale still wants to go after Elan, and he still builds the LG with the "opposites" idea in mind. Now, if the OotS is formed in the (forced) way you said above, he would get Thog and Zz'dtri... and somebody as Haley's foil. But... surprise! The Directors aren't planning anything with the Gates, they're thus not gonna meddle with Nale, and they never sent Sabine to him.

[FujinAkari]

I can't see any reason the absence of the Rifts would change the course of events with Xykon and Eugene. Eugene would look for Xykon for a while, find Xyklon the Consequential, and declare he was no longer interested in looking. If one of Xykon's minions tried to persuade him to go after Xykon again later, he'd refuse.[/url]

The big reason I see a shift is because, in SOD, Xykon is given a choice between helping Redcloak and a lizardfolk tribe. In Riftless, the only option he'd have is the lizardfolk, and so he'd more than likely join them and help them destroy neighboring human villages.

This change means that Eugene WOULD find him, as oppose to the true history where Xykon and Redcloak went off to gather together a force to assail Lirian's Gate, subsequently got captured, and then spent a lot of time trapped in Lirian's cell, meaning Xykon effectively fell "off the map" and Eugene couldn't find him.

The question is how strong Xykon was at this point... and how strong Eugene was... but either way you look at it, either Eugene defeated Xykon or non-lich Xykon dies shortly after, I don't see Xykon surviving long enough to influence Roy's story.


This whole thread is pure speculation.
Might as well try something.

Btw, the idea that, by coincidence, Roy, Elan and Haley still find each other sounds forced. It's a typical example of what "alternate reality" writers shouldn't do. And remember that Roy recruited them after an important and enlightening adventure with Durkon. If he never had to fulfill a prophecy, and if he never had to split from the other party (assuming he joined them in the first place) because of Durkon, nor to find allies at that specific moment, searching in one place while Durkon was searching in another place... he would have never found Elan, Haley, V and Belkar. It couldn't be simpler.

It really isn't coincidence. Roy choose to form his mercenary group (that IS what he went to school for, after all) at the same time that Haley, V, Elan, and Belkar were looking to join an adventuring group. I don't see what rifts or no-rifts should have to do with anything. I also don't remember Durkon getting ANY of the OOTS to join.

Roy was fed up with his old party anyway, Durkon's treatment exasperated the issue, but I don't see any indication that it was Roy's -only- problem.


Also, assuming Roy ever gets to meet Belkar (see above), why would Roy kick Belkar away from the team for his violent attitude if the gates weren't there? I don't see how the two things are related. We know that Roy didn't kick him, long before he knew about the gates (so, the possible "lesser of two evils" excuse doesn't work either).

Roy doesn't kick Belkar out, Belkar leaves (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0139.html) Roy has no real reason to want to keep him in this reality.


Similarly to the OotS, I don't understand why some members of the Linear Guild (Nale, Sabine and Thog) find each other, and some don't.

Well, Nale, Sabine, and Thog knew eachother back when Nale was with Tarquin, so clearly they are still going to know eachother.

Hilgya is Durkon's evil opposite, and there is no Durkon, plus Hilgya only joined because Nale got hired by Xykon, and he won't be able to get hired by Durokan in the same manner.

Zz'tiri I said was pure speculation, so that doesn't mean they never meet, that means we don't know. We have no idea when or how they started working together, so we can't tell how the lack of rifts changes that.


If I got your idea right, you're assuming that Nale still wants to go after Elan, and he still builds the LG with the "opposites" idea in mind.

Well, yeah... of course. He wanted to do that before anyone knew about the rifts, why should that change?


Now, if the OotS is formed in the (forced) way you said above, he would get Thog and Zz'dtri... and somebody as Haley's foil. But... surprise! The Directors aren't planning anything with the Gates, they're thus not gonna meddle with Nale, and they never sent Sabine to him.

Uh... the Directors didn't know anything aboutt he Gates whatsoever until Sabine told them here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html), so their existance or non-existance can't have anything to do with her being assigned to Nale.

[Zerg Cookie]

Actually, Xykon wouldn't have sided with the lizardfolks becuase he would have never assualt a fort that was never built to drive away from a swamp goblins that were never there because they threaten to use a hole in reality that never existed

[FujinAkari]

Actually, Xykon wouldn't have sided with the lizardfolks becuase he would have never assualt a fort that was never built to drive away from a swamp goblins that were never there because they threaten to use a hole in reality that never existed

Huh? That fort has absolutely nothing to do with the rifts, that I remember...

[MesiDoomstalker]

No, she specifically wasn't. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html)

Ah, I misremebered the quote. I retract my statement.


Huh? That fort has absolutely nothing to do with the rifts, that I remember...

It was a fort built, supplied, and staffed by the Sapphire Guard as part of the crusade against the Crimson Mantle. Without the rifts, there would be no Sapphire Gaurd, the Crimson Mantle may/may not still exist but there would be no organized force attempting to eradicate them. So the fort (probably) wouldn't of been built.

[FujinAkari]

It was a fort built, supplied, and staffed by the Sapphire Guard as part of the crusade against the Crimson Mantle. Without the rifts, there would be no Sapphire Gaurd, the Crimson Mantle may/may not still exist but there would be no organized force attempting to eradicate them. So the fort (probably) wouldn't of been built.

Ah, I remembered the lizards were fighting Paladins but I forgot why... though that just means Xykon keeps running around like a peasant-roasting fool... the point is that he won't fall off Eugene's radar :P

[ORione]

I dont think that Shojo would be of any real importance since he isnt trying to stop the rifts from being controlled. The main reason he ruled was because he was a decedent of Soon. So i see Hinjo as being much more likely as a ruler and possibly doing an okay job at it for the most part.


Soon was not Emperor and Shojo was not his decendent. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) Shojo and Hinjo still would have been part of the Azure City royal family, and would have been emperors, but they probably wouldn't have anything to do with Roy or other OotSers.

Speculation of my own: I think that without any Azure City to recruit her, Miko likely would have stayed a monk.

[zimmerwald1915]

I'm going to presume we don't need to spoil our scenarios, since the warning about spoilers is in the thread title. I'll change that if informed otherwise.

The earliest thing, that we know of, to have occured in World 2.0 that was connected to the rifts were the deaths of several forest creatures and Mijung in the Elven Lands. If the forest creatures do not die, Lirian has no cause to pass by Soon and Mijung's picnic, and she and Soon do not meet. Moreover, Mijung doesn't die. In all likelihood, Soon and Mijung are able to return to Azure City in peace, and live out their lives doing whatever it was they did. Probably they were ad-hoc or full time agents of the Lord of the City, and would have continued in that capacity. The rest of the Order of the Scribble would have continued about their previous lives uninterrupted: since we have no idea what those were, we can't say much about their fates, other than that they probably don't end up on an epic, world-spanning, universally-important quest.

Without this quest taking place, the Gates are never created, and the Dark One doesn't learn of Lirian's Gate since the Rift never existed, the OotScribble did not form, and the OotScribble did not erect the Gate. The Crimson Mantle is never created, and though the Dark One may formulate another Plan to get what he wants (perhaps destroying World 2.0 and letting the Snarl loose on the other gods while he, forewarned, has had time to hide away) he likely does not single out Redcloak's tribe to be the vehicle for this Plan. With no imperative to seek out and destroy potential threats to the nonexistant Gates, paladins from Azure City (who would not have been organized into the Sapphire Guard) might not have destroyed his tribe. That's not to say they would not have been destroyed: they might be destroyed by Azurites for some other reason, or by a group of adventurers, or by another tribe of goblinoids. But without the Crimson Mantle, Redcloak's tribe has not been shown to have provoked any attention at all. If they are not destroyed, Redcloak and Right-Eye grow up with parents and siblings, and grow to be productive members of goblin society, maybe helping elevate that society a little vis-a-vis others. If they are destroyed, some would escape, not necessarily including Redcloak and Right-Eye, and presumably do what Redcloak and Right-Eye did: try to strike back, though without any overarching Plan behind it.

Xykon's life up to now has been unaffected by the lack of Rifts, until he flies over the Azurite outpost where he first met Redcloak and Right-Eye. If the tribe has not been destroyed, they would not be there to meet him, and he might team up with the lizardfolk who also pitched to him - perhaps after killing the pitchman with the long, consonant-filled name, appointing some random nobody from the ranks and saying "your name is Greenfrill now" or something more Xykonish. If the tribe has been destroyed, there's a strong likelihood that the escapees would not be in the vicinity of the outpost in time to meet Xykon, and anyway without the Plan they have no reason to make a pitch to this high-level arcane caster. So Xykon ends up with a bunch of lizardfolk minions and goes off to complete whatever plan they had going. I believe it involved a gem of some kind.

However, Xykon had, before meeting up with the lizardfolk, still killed Fyron [and his son?] for the crown, and Eugene still swore the Blood Oath of Vengeance against him. I disagree that Xykon would necessarily be much easier to find, though. Eugene's adventuring companions would not have been made more competant at information-gathering and tracking by the absence of the Rifts, the Oracle would not have been made more helpful, and we have no reason to suspect a Right-Eye-like character among the lizardfolk (among the goblins serving Xykon Right-Eye was exceptional in his willingness to go as far as he did to defy him). Thus even after he's abandoned his vengeance, Eugene is not met in a tavern with information as to Xykon's whereabouts and purchasing habits. That's assuming Xykon is even alive at this point: he might well have died of old age, never having reason to become a lich.

Since Eugene never gets called away to the tavern, he might actually attend Roy's soccer game (he seemed flustered about being late, like he wanted to attend), but he might find another excuse to be absent. He might be a slightly better father to Roy, though Eric still probably gets killed and Julia probably still gets spoiled rotten. Not really sure if Xykon dying of old age fulfills Eugene's blood oath, but if it does he goes to Celestia when he dies. If not he tells Roy, about Xykon when he's about to die, and to tell Julia.

Roy, severly pissed, goes to recruit an adventuring party to seek out a means of fulfilling the Oath even though the subject upon which vengeance must be brought is dead. No reason to assume he does not end up with the OotS as helpers. Apart from Durkon, if we accept that the prophecy is connected to the Rifts somehow, their life paths until they formed the OotS were unaffected by the Rifts. I haven't read OtOoPCs, so I can't comment on who might be in this timeline's OotS, but whichever members Roy recruited would become part of the group, whichever members Durkon recruited would not. The OotS' contracts would read something like "will continue to adventure together until a means to fulfill the Blood Oath of Vengeance on Xykon has been found and attempted successfully".

Nale, having no Talisman to steal (assuming Dorukan never reached high enough level to create it) adopts some other plan to gather himself an army upon being kicked out of the Western Continent by his father. He might actually meet up with the MitD - who would never have been sprung from the circus by Redcloak - spring him, and convince him to work for the Linear Guild (which would be the original roster minus Hilgya). The LG, with a new, powerful ally and no further business on the Northern Continent, transport MitD to the Western Continent and wait for their moment. When they judge the time to be right, they unleash the MitD on the EoB.

Can't really think of a way to wind this story up, but I'm not the Giant.

[Gift Jeraff]

Interesting to note that both Durkon and Hilgya seem to not join their respective parties in a riftless timeline. It really does seem like the universe forces the Order and the Guild to parallel each other no matter what.

[ORione]

Interesting to note that both Durkon and Hilgya seem to not join their respective parties in a riftless timeline. It really does seem like the universe forces the Order and the Guild to parallel each other no matter what.

Redcloak stays home, too. A riftless world seems to make life less adventurous for clerics.

[FujinAkari]

Amazing Writeup

I agree with most of this... I don't see any reason why The Dark One would ever know about the Snarl, nor do I see the Azurites ever building the fort without the rifts...

I still disagree about Eugene v Xykon... Eugene spent several YEARS trying to find Xykon while Xykon wasn't doing much (publically) and was thus hard to find. Contrast this with a Xykon running around slaughtering people and looting shiny stuff and I think Eugene could have found him :P

[zimmerwald1915]

I still disagree about Eugene v Xykon... Eugene spent several YEARS trying to find Xykon while Xykon wasn't doing much (publically) and was thus hard to find. Contrast this with a Xykon running around slaughtering people and looting shiny stuff and I think Eugene could have found him :P
Depends on where the quest for the lizardfolks' gem led him, I think. While probably not as epic a campaign as the quest for the Gates, the gem could easily have been connected to other Plot Coupons. Besides, it was not Eugene who was doing the literal tracking down of Xykon: it was his friends, who were shown to be about as competant at such a task as Belkar.

[Gift Jeraff]

Redcloak stays home, too. A riftless world seems to make life less adventurous for clerics.Also Tsukiko doesn't join Team Evil and Jirix presumably stays a generic cleric. I would guess that he dies in a random hobgoblin training thing or minor conflict with the Azurites (presumably the Azurite vs. hobgoblin animosity is unrelated to the Northern goblins' Plan), and without a powerful high priest who saw his potential, Jirix does not get resurrected.

And here's an interesting possibility: what if Durkon was chosen to be high priest after Hurak died?

[FujinAkari]

Depends on where the quest for the lizardfolks' gem led him, I think.

A quest Xykon learns about after he attacks a fort of Azurite Soldiers which isn't build in this reality. Why would Xykon ever meet the lizards?


I would guess that he dies in a random hobgoblin training thing or minor conflict with the Azurites (presumably the Azurite vs. hobgoblin animosity is unrelated to the Northern goblins' Plan)

I actually don't think so.

The -only- animosity we are ever shown is in the pursuit of the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle, which doesn't occur if there is no plan.

[Kish]

Roy, severly pissed, goes to recruit an adventuring party to seek out a means of fulfilling the Oath even though the subject upon which vengeance must be brought is dead. No reason to assume he does not end up with the OotS as helpers. Apart from Durkon, if we accept that the prophecy is connected to the Rifts somehow, their life paths until they formed the OotS were unaffected by the Rifts. I haven't read OtOoPCs, so I can't comment on who might be in this timeline's OotS, but whichever members Roy recruited would become part of the group, whichever members Durkon recruited would not.


Problem here: "Whichever members Durkon recruited" includes Roy himself. That is, Durkon was the one who suggested that Roy should form his own adventuring party, after they both split from the adventuring party where they met.


Also, unless Roy never visited the Oracle, the Oracle would presumably tell him, "Xykon is dead and not moving," either before or after getting dangled out a window.

I actually don't think so.

The -only- animosity we are ever shown is in the pursuit of the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle, which doesn't occur if there is no plan.
Ahem.

Most damning, though, is a decades-long history of paladins exterminating entire villages of goblins and other humanoids at the behest of their gods [...]. The Twelve Gods may have sanctioned the paladins' massacres, but even the gods can't stop Karma from kicking them in their divine asses once in a while.

[Gift Jeraff]

The -only- animosity we are ever shown is in the pursuit of the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle, which doesn't occur if there is no plan.I don't know. Even the commentary points out we don't know who started the conflict--did it arise from the Plan, or is the Plan only in motion because of how goblinoids have been treated?

Though upon double-checking, a bonus strip has the Hobgoblin General say that the paladins and regular army have had them stuck in the valley for 30 years. So that does fall into around the time the Sapphire Guard went on their crusade. I'm still willing to bet the animosity would still exist, just on a smaller scale. (Bear in mind that the Dark One's death and the bloody war between goblinoids and the humans/elves/dwarves still occur without the rift, so there's bound to still be deep hatred.)

[FujinAkari]

Ahem.

Yes, but SoD explicitly shows that the Paladins were exterminating at least one of those villages specifically because of the Crimson mantle, and it also shows Right-eye's village that is never harassed, molested, or otherwise threatened for the entirety of its existence.

As Gift said, there likely is still SOME animosity, but I don't see the Gods having the Paladins doing it wholesale without a legitimate threat to the world.

[veti]

I love the idea, but I think the OP is based on some deeply questionable premises...

High-level PCs tend to find high-level quests to fulfil. (Otherwise there's not much of a game going on.) So if there hadn't been the rifts to heal, the Order of the Scribble would still have got together and done something else, roughly equally epic, that we don't have enough information to speculate about. At the end of their adventure, you still have five/maybe six retired, high-level characters each doing their own thing.

So Soon still founds an order of paladins dedicated to hunting down evil and preserving the peace. Dorukan builds a dungeon to protect his research into, I dunno, hybridising woolly mammoths with lemons or something, because he's always had a thing for furry fruit.

Xykon still kills Fyron, Eugene still swears revenge and loses interest (it's his nature (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html)), and the whole setup for the OOTS is very much the same. Xykon gets Serini's diary and reasons, astutely, that epic-level retired characters will make worthy opponents with a notable stash of loot; also, because of their levels, left alone they'd be potential threats to his hegemony. So he's still got motivation to go after them, even without the gates.

Instead of being tried for endangering reality, the Order is arrested by Miko to face charges related to the disappearance of Soon's friend Dorukan (remember, the whole 'charge' thing is only a pretext on Shojo's part anyway).

What is different? Well, there's no big hole in the sky above Azure City. But I'm going to assume that, without the holy quest to protect the sapphire, the 'ghost martyrs' magic wouldn't have been called for, so Xykon's attack on Azure City would have gone more smoothly.

The gates are only a McGuffin, and the thing about McGuffins is - everyone thinks they're all-important, but in fact they have barely any effect at all. All they do is provoke people to do stupid things. As such, they're enormously replaceable - because let's face it, anything can trigger that.

[ORione]

High-level PCs tend to find high-level quests to fulfil. (Otherwise there's not much of a game going on.)


... There isn't a game going on.

[veti]

... There isn't a game going on.

Game, story, same difference...

If there's nothing going on, then there's no world anyway and we're not having this discussion.

[FujinAkari]

I love the idea, but I think the OP is based on some deeply questionable premises...

Ironic... this is precisely the response I have to your post, which boils down to "Well, something else would have happened that would have performed the same function!" Errr... what? why?

While it is true that Epic Level characters always have some grand, earth-shattering quest that makes them epic, you are presuming them Epic and then demanding the quest, where it is the quest itself that is in question.

If the rifts did not exist, the likely result is that the Scribblenaughts did not become epic, not that some weird other thing made them epic and replicated the plot anyway...

[veti]

If the rifts did not exist, the likely result is that the Scribblenaughts did not become epic, not that some weird other thing made them epic and replicated the plot anyway...

Hmm... I think we might differ on the use of the word "likely".

If you assume that the OOTS world is a real place, with its own independent existence, then - OK, fair enough.

But it's not. It's created for the purpose of telling a story. Without the story, it wouldn't exist at all. So saying that something is "likely" to have happened in that scenario is meaningless.

We're seeing the question differently. You're thinking of a hypothetical world that is as alike as possible to the OOTSverse but with a single difference, I'm thinking of a hypothetical adventure that is as alike as possible to the story we're seeing but with a single difference.

I think my conceptual problem is: the world is built around a story, and without the story it would be a very different world. (Miko, for instance, was conceived to explore the possibility of paladin-as-antagonist; without that raison d'etre, she would be an entirely different character, if she existed at all.)

[MesiDoomstalker]

Hmm... I think we might differ on the use of the word "likely".

If you assume that the OOTS world is a real place, with its own independent existence, then - OK, fair enough.

But it's not. It's created for the purpose of telling a story. Without the story, it wouldn't exist at all. So saying that something is "likely" to have happened in that scenario is meaningless.

We're seeing the question differently. You're thinking of a hypothetical world that is as alike as possible to the OOTSverse but with a single difference, I'm thinking of a hypothetical adventure that is as alike as possible to the story we're seeing but with a single difference.

I think my conceptual problem is: the world is built around a story, and without the story it would be a very different world. (Miko, for instance, was conceived to explore the possibility of paladin-as-antagonist; without that raison d'etre, she would be an entirely different character, if she existed at all.)

But the point of this thread to speculate what the world would be like without the gates. Your answer "Exactly the same with different Macguffins" You admitted you are looking at the question from a point of view fundamentally different from the OP and all other posters up to this point. Your perspective is invalid unless everybody, or a significant amount, see it from that perspective. The OP is assuming the world functions with or without a story. That premise is what the thread is built around.

[Whiffet]

Hmm... I think we might differ on the use of the word "likely".

If you assume that the OOTS world is a real place, with its own independent existence, then - OK, fair enough.

But it's not. It's created for the purpose of telling a story. Without the story, it wouldn't exist at all. So saying that something is "likely" to have happened in that scenario is meaningless.

We're seeing the question differently. You're thinking of a hypothetical world that is as alike as possible to the OOTSverse but with a single difference, I'm thinking of a hypothetical adventure that is as alike as possible to the story we're seeing but with a single difference.

I think my conceptual problem is: the world is built around a story, and without the story it would be a very different world. (Miko, for instance, was conceived to explore the possibility of paladin-as-antagonist; without that raison d'etre, she would be an entirely different character, if she existed at all.)

You could say this about any story world, though. You may as well say The Lord of the Rings would still be very much the same if Isildur destroyed the ring instead of keeping it.
Please don't let this degenerate into a discussion of why Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings, how that wasn't supposed to be his major work, why he came up with his world, etc.

[veti]

But the point of this thread to speculate what the world would be like without the gates.

I'm speculating as to what the world would be like without the rifts, same as everyone else. But whenever I'm given a counterfactual question like that, I ask myself: in order for this to be true, what else would have to be different? And in this case, the answer seems obvious.


You could say this about any story world, though. You may as well say The Lord of the Rings would still be very much the same if Isildur destroyed the ring instead of keeping it.
Please don't let this degenerate into a discussion of why Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings, how that wasn't supposed to be his major work, why he came up with his world, etc.

Once again: "In order for that to be true, what else would have to be different?" Isildur could have been a stronger character, or he could have had a Gollum-like nemesis who threw him into the mountain, ring and all. In that case the Third Age would have been very different, but since Middle-earth is the setting for a whole bunch of stories and lore that are not directly related to LotR, it would still have "existed". And I would certainly say that evil would still have been present, and the end of the Third Age would very likely be characterised by an epic quest to save the world from something. (After all, people don't declare "the end of an age" just because someone burnt the toast.)

[FujinAkari]

[QUOTE=veti;12005648]Once again: "In order for that to be true, what else would have to be different?" QUOTE]

But again, you seem to be trying to answer that as 'Nothing' and making up McGuffins to replace the very thing we're changing... I'm not quite sure what the point of such an exercise might be.