Fixing My Party?

[DefKab]

Ok. So, here's the deal. Starting a new game, at Lvl 2, and so far, we only have 3 people. I'ma wizahd (naturally), and I convinced my wife to play a Druid. (For the winz)

Unfortunately, the third player wants to be a Half-Orc Monk. (Booo)

So... A few questions.

Whats a good build to make the Tome Of Battle monk? At level 2?
And will we three be able to make it as is?
Finally, I wanna be a batman wizahd. Any advice?

[Saint GoH]

Obligatory Unarmed Swordsage plug.

Also, you may want to inform your 3rd player that you AND your wife will be T1 Casters, and ask if he is alright with his choice. If he says yes, he wants to play a Half-Orc Monk, then let him do it.

[Dalek-K]

If you are asking this....

You and your wife should play different classes...


Dread Necromancer/Warmage/Beguiler (depending on your preference)

Ranger/Variant Druid/Cleric Variant (cloistered cleric)

Even if you bump his power level up by being a swordsage he won't be on par with you two. Also if the DM throws tough monsters at you... He will be mostly useless... Sure he can do some neat stuff but he will never be the upper tier that your characters (wizard and druid) will be.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

He has to learn somehow that Monk isn't all it's cracked up to be, this looks like a good opportunity. Make him Nodwick the traps while you're at it, tell him he's helping.

[Morph Bark]

If you are asking this....

You and your wife should play different classes...


Dread Necromancer/Warmage/Beguiler (depending on your preference)

Ranger/Variant Druid/Cleric Variant (cloistered cleric)

No. Just no.

A Druid with spontaneous casting (as in Unearthed Arcana) and the Shapeshifting ACF from PHBII is pretty peachy.

If he goes Unarmed Swordsage or Tashalatora [psionic class] or a combo of that even, they're more on par already.

A Batman Wizard is still quite above those though. You could perhaps instead go for a Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order? You could cast up to 5th-level wizard spells then at least.

[Chilingsworth]

You and your wife told this guy what you were playing ahead of time, yes?

If so, then he'll have nonone to blame but himself when he can't keep up.

It's his problem, not yours. Assuming he even has a problem with it, of course. I'd imagine that anyone even remotely familiar with the game would have a sufficient idea of what would happen with this set-up, so maybe that's exactly what he's looking for?

EDIT: Since you don't have a trapfinder as such, I also second having him Nodwick the traps. Also, if the character is trustworthy, use him as a pack mule he's sure to be stronger than your wizard. If the character is not trustworthy, then don't do that untill you have spamable mind-control magic available.

[Dalek-K]

I was a bit sleepy when I last posted, I was thinking more along the lines of the variant that looses wildshape.

Still a Full Caster but a bit less broken and won't be able to turn into an eagle, fly high, and blast from the sky.

Also, why did you have to convince your wife to play a druid? Is it because you want a super party? Or does she not play D&D and you are pulling her into it?

If its the former then what class would she actually want to play? Is it the later? In which you should just let her decide what she wants to play.

You remind me of a guy I played with, the rest of the party kept it to tier 2 - 3 he went around and try to convince us to play all tier one classes.

Then during the game his character always put ours down... So we made new characters of tier 4 and under and had a great time being unoptimized as possible (this is actually around the time I was introduced to OoTS) and the game was insanely fun.

Not that you are the same way but I can't help but get that feeling.

[mootoall]

I'm going to echo what most other people have said, and recommend that your friend not only bump his power level using Unarmed Swordsage, but you and your wife lower yours to, say, a Wildshape Mystic Ranger and a Beguiler.

[Morph Bark]

I'm going to echo what most other people have said, and recommend that your friend not only bump his power level using Unarmed Swordsage, but you and your wife lower yours to, say, a Wildshape Mystic Ranger and a Beguiler.

Since he wants a Batman wizard, I'd sooner pick Wu Jen, Psion or Sorcerer, so long as he does not take Polymorph, Summoning or Calling spells/powers. Beguiler does pretty good in a party, but depends on what you prefer. Beguilers are good at avoiding combat, not so huge during combat.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you'd rather get him to fix his character than let him learn a lesson from his mistakes, then give him an Unarmed Arcane Swordsage. That should keep up with a Wizard and a Druid quite easily, and if he was going to play a Monk in the first place then he's probably not going to be able to take it to the tier-0 level that it's capable of.

[dspeyer]

Maybe don't bother.

After the first session, either you'll find that tier balance is a little different at low levels (and your problem is gone) or he'll get frustrated with his uselessness and switch to a new character. I've had the latter happen, it didn't detract from the fun of the game.

[Basket Burner]

Tell him that he is screwed. Not because the rest of the party is better than him, though they are but because all of the enemies are better than him. Recommend unarmed characters that can actually punch people in the face.

If he's unwilling to listen, a Wizard and a Druid can drag one dead weight character through encounters. If it helps, pretend the Druid's animal companion is the third party member. You'll be fine, just he won't.

[DefKab]

Alright a few answers.

One, my wife doesnt care what class to play. Shes... Ah, difficult like that. I pushed druid so that she can shine if she wants to, with almost no need for system mastery. Shes not going to push the druid past tier 3.

And Im not going to push my wizard. I choose the Batman wizard so I could be PREPARED for anything, not destroy everything. I plan on preparing only party buffs, with a few safety spells incase things go wrong. If I think a spell will ruin the fun, I am perfectly capable of saying I 'forgot' to prepare it.

And I think the guy went monk because A: hes never played a monk before and 2: because we were under the impression that it was core only. It changed. I suggested the swordsage, with my reasoning why he shouldnt be a monk. I just want to help him get the monk feeling while still having fun, but Im not too knowledged in ToB.

[ranagrande]

Monk 2 is actually pretty solid. The trick is just to not take much more than that.

There are all kinds of things you can do from there, but I might go with something like Monk 2/Duskblade 3/Fist of the Forest 3/Apostle of Peace 2/Sacred Fist 10.

[Godskook]

Question: How optimized does he, you, and the DM want his character to be?

[Incanur]

The only half-orc monk I've ever seen in a campaign died horribly, though not necessarily because the character was useless.

At level two, the difference between tier 1 and tier 5 isn't such a huge deal. At best, the wizard teleports out of harms way and produces clouds of sickening smoke while the druid has a dog. :smallsigh: Casters don't get ridiculous until around level ten in my experience.

Swordsage is always a solid, though, unarmed or not.

[hex0]

I played a Half-Orc Monk with the OA martial arts styles allowed and it worked fine. This was early 3.5 though. In our games Half-Orc don't have an int penalty and get a bonus fighter feat, though.

Maybe let him gestalt Monk/Fighter for balance? Or give him a higher point buy? Full bab flurry is nice, though.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Enlarge Person, Bull's Strength, Greater Mighty Wallop, Greater Magic Weapon, Haste, and Polymorph from the Wizard; Bull's Strength, Barkskin, (Mass) Snake's Swiftness, and Greater Magic Fang from the Druid. Maybe then a Monk can contribute in a meaningful way, but so could an NPC commoner with all that stuff thrown at him.

[Gotterdammerung]

You don't need to fix anything and probably couldn't fix it even if you needed to.

The tier system has about the same reliability as a random poll. Most high tier tricks don't even work, or are easily fixed by a GM, or can be countered, or don't factor in duration.

If you use the tier system to taunt another player out of playing a class he wants to play, then you are doing it wrong.

[mootoall]

The tier system has about the same reliability as a random poll. Most high tier tricks don't even work, or are easily fixed by a GM, or can be countered, or don't factor in duration.


I'd beg to differ on this point. Most high tier tricks *do* work, the fact that they can be "fixed" doesn't mean they aren't in the system, most can't be countered *except by other high tier "tricks"*, and most don't factor in duration because they either don't need it, or bypass it entirely.

Furthermore, the inequality between tiers has been proven time and time again, both through theoretical optimization, actual playtesting, and the basic definitions the tier system uses. You literally cannot argue that the Fighter, Monk or Barbarian has the same breadth of options and depth of power that a Wizard does, at any equitable level of optimization.

[Incanur]

Tier-1 characters have exponentially fewer options at level two than they do at level twenty. Seriously, what's a wizard 2 going to do to dramatically outshine a monk 2? Regardless of class, basic animals constitute a threat at this stage in the game. Nobody gets to be godlike yet.

[Gotterdammerung]

I'd beg to differ on this point. Most high tier tricks *do* work, the fact that they can be "fixed" doesn't mean they aren't in the system, most can't be countered *except by other high tier "tricks"*, and most don't factor in duration because they either don't need it, or bypass it entirely.

Furthermore, the inequality between tiers has been proven time and time again, both through theoretical optimization, actual playtesting, and the basic definitions the tier system uses. You literally cannot argue that the Fighter, Monk or Barbarian has the same breadth of options and depth of power that a Wizard does, at any equitable level of optimization.

Yep, there are a lot of people who would disagree with me. And i'm not in the mood to argue with all of them for a million pages of this thread. Mostly because no matter what I say, they have already decided that they are right.

The tier system is a loose classification. It is far from accurate and does not have any bearing on final party dynamic and strength. It is at best a theoretical thought experiment and it has no purpose. In the end, all it creates is campaigns where certain classes are arbitrarily banned or certain classes are made fun of by other snooty players. Not only is this manifestation pointless, but it is also directly in conflict with the point of the game.

Anyway, you can shine up the tier system and try to pass it off as all encompassing, irrefutable, scientific fact. And in the meantime, I will play whichever class I feel like. And everytime i see a tier 4 class do something awesome that destroys the t1 bbeg, I will think of you and smile.

[herrhauptmann]

Even if he plays his monk at the bottom of Tier 6, it's not up to you to fix his character, unless he asks for help in optimizing. It's his game too.


If so, then he'll have nonone to blame but himself when he can't keep up.
Unless he's a denizen of the different optimization boards, he probably hasn't figured out that monks are so low powered compared to a pair of tier one casters. He might even be a brand new player, one who hasn't had much experience with the game that might let him figure it out on his own.

The best the OP can do his limit himself to their power levels (or close to them), which he's stated he plans to do. If he doesn't, the tier 5-6 monk and played at Tier 3 druid will get overwhelmed as the DM tries to challenge the Tier 1 wizard. OR, the Tier 1 wizard will wipe the floor with every encounter, leaving the druid and monk sitting around twiddling their thumbs. (Not that it matters at level 2)

[Incanur]

And everytime i see a tier 4 class do something awesome that destroys the t1 bbeg, I will think of you and smile.

Like a barbarian charging a wizard for stupid amounts of damage? Yeah, that kind of thing happens. :smallamused:

[ericgrau]

At level 2 you won't notice. He might be the most effective for a little while, even though a barbarian might be better. With grappling he can last a little longer than that. Give it until at least level 5 and see how it goes; even up to 10 might be ok, you have a while. And as said people should play what they want and not always the same thing that others say they "must play".

In one gaming group I'm in one player likes to make both wizards and half-orc monks. He is an effective party member with both. It does no good to exaggerate issues and force people to have less fun thanks to limited options; at least give the player a run and if he screws it up let him switch.

[Gotterdammerung]

Like a barbarian charging a wizard for stupid amounts of damage? Yeah, that kind of thing happens. :smallamused:

Or like when the rng/bstmaster/wildplains outrider, moving stealthily through the sky, activates their magic item for an anti-magic field around the claws of their roc animal companion. Then commands the roc to dive down out of the sky and snatch the wizard.

[Garwain]

At lvl 2 your wizurhdah will not yet outshine the monk. Don't level up and voila.

[Leon]

Ok. So, here's the deal. Starting a new game, at Lvl 2, and so far, we only have 3 people. I'ma wizahd (naturally), and I convinced my wife to play a Druid. (For the winz)

Unfortunately, the third player wants to be a Half-Orc Monk. (Booo)

So... A few questions.

Whats a good build to make the Tome Of Battle monk? At level 2?
And will we three be able to make it as is?
Finally, I wanna be a batman wizahd. Any advice?

Play your game and see how it goes without any care of being optimal or not - let the guy play what he chooses whether or not you like his choices, it is after all his PC not yours.
A Good group is one that works together to achieve its goals and the ability to do that is not tied to any class choice.

Monk is not all that bad despite what the majority of this board like to think.

[Basket Burner]

Tier-1 characters have exponentially fewer options at level two than they do at level twenty. Seriously, what's a wizard 2 going to do to dramatically outshine a monk 2? Regardless of class, basic animals constitute a threat at this stage in the game. Nobody gets to be godlike yet.

At level 2?

Wizard: Uses an AoE spell that for all practical purposes is a save or die.
Monk: Makes two, low damage attacks and misses with both of them.

It'd be different if he were a greatsword Fighter or something. Then he would at least have a save or die targeting AC. At least until the group gains 1 level.

But a Monk? Unintentional comic relief is as good as it gets.

[Ursus the Grim]

Or like when the rng/bstmaster/wildplains outrider, moving stealthily through the sky, activates their magic item for an anti-magic field around the claws of their roc animal companion. Then commands the roc to dive down out of the sky and snatch the wizard.

If you'd like to argue how a specific, highly optimized, and situational build outmaneuvers a wizard in terms of options (As that is what differentiates T1 and Tier 2), by all means, start a new thread. People around here are used to laughing when someone tries to argue tiers and I can guarantee a five page thread, barring locks.

But this isn't the place.

At level 2, a Monk can get by. You'll have more difficulty when he runs out of spells, and his lousy BaB isn't that much of a difference yet. If you plan on playing to higher levels, I do agree with Swordsage Recommendations. Its very easy to refluff and you do more awesome things while unarmed than a mere Flurry of Blows. Barring extreme cheese, a Wizard should only have 3 level 1 spells per day, maybe 4. As long as the DM isn't spreading the encounters out too thin, the Wizard's spells run out fast.

[Golden Ladybug]

At level two, I can get a Wizard into a Prestige Class and carry 6 level one spells per day. Without even trying very hard. Its ridiculously easy to power up a wizard, with only a hint of cheddar. I don't suggest doing so, because by all accounts taking a DMG to the head is painful.

My suggestion is to 'suggest' to your third member that his Half-Orc Monk should take the Sacred Vow feat for his level 1, and when he levels up 'suggest' that he takes the Feat Vow of Poverty. 'Suggest' Tattooed Monk later on, so he can aleviate the pain of MAD with the nifty tattoo abilities while he gets Enlarge Person cast on him in the Surprise Round. Move on to Ale and Whores in short order.

In my experience, a VoP Monk can keep up with a semi-optimised party if played decently, and if they know their way around the class. Playing low-Batman will give him and the Tier 3 Druid a decent chance to shine, if your DM is considerate to them and you're content to let them.

And it means you two get a bigger cut of the treasure. Everybody wins!

[mootoall]

Tier-1 characters have exponentially fewer options at level two than they do at level twenty. Seriously, what's a wizard 2 going to do to dramatically outshine a monk 2? Regardless of class, basic animals constitute a threat at this stage in the game. Nobody gets to be godlike yet.

Tier 1 characters have much fewer options at level two than level twenty, but who cares? They have so many more options than the Tier 5 Monk, which is what we're comparing them too. Wizards have encounter ending spells at level 1, and Druids not only have encounter ending spells from level 1, but built-in melee to clean up afterwards. At least the wizard wants a fighter or monk there so he doesn't have to get his dagger dirty afterwards.


Like a barbarian charging a wizard for stupid amounts of damage? Yeah, that kind of thing happens. :smallamused:

And what happens when the barbarian can't charge? Like, say, when the wizard is flying at fifth level? Or when he's set up a Web, or a Druid an Entanlge? Mind you, these aren't casters being built specifically to take out a charger. These are spells that a caster will probably prepare every day.

[Incanur]

Wizards have encounter ending spells at level 1, and Druids not only have encounter ending spells from level 1, but built-in melee to clean up afterwards.

Which spells are you talking about? Color spray stands out on the wizard side of things. What about the druid? Entangle?


And what happens when the barbarian can't charge?

They take one melee attack that deals about a fourth (or less) of the damage they'd manage on a charge. It's kind of pathetic. Pouncing barbarians only have one trick and become decidedly underwhelming when they can't perform it.