[Pathfinder] Ranged Combat Maneuver expert?

[Frosty]

Hi Playgrounders, I have an itch to play a ranged character who is able think outside the boc and do more than just, "I full-attack AGAIN this round." I want to be able to mix Combat Maneuvers into my ranged attacks, and I have the following classes allowed:

Barbarian
Cavalier
Fighter
Inquisitor (Non Spell Casting Only) (not sure if such a variant exists)
Monk
Ninja
Ranger (Non Spell Casting Only)
Rogue
Samurai

I think I'm pretty much stuck with taking at least 3 levels of Fighter with the Archery archetype, and I might even take 11 levels so I can choose the better maneuvers like grapple or bullrush or trip.

I'm looking for a build that'll give me respectable damage and at the same time allow me to maximize my chances of successfully performing a ranged maneuver and also allows me to do more with my maneuvers (or just have more chances to activate them).

All the Ultimate books are allowed, and I'm starting at level 2, so I'd like a build that's fubn at all levels. Thanks in advance!

[Larpus]

Well, I don't have any experience with Cavaliers, so no comment on them.

Don't think there's a non-casting Inquisitor/Ranger, so if you don't get anything in return for that, they're also both out.

Barbarian may be able to make a surprisingly decent archer, using Rage to buff your Str 10 so you can use your composite longbow, which may very well be large with Titan Mauler (don't ask how in hell you pull the string).

Straight Fighter is good for the quick feats, but despite archery needing quite a number of feats to get truly good, after some time you literally have nothing to pick, after all Agile Maneuvers + Exotic Prof (whip) and you can maneuver quite well already. Bottom line, some levels in Fighter for quick access to feats is nice, but straight Fighter is kind of a waste.

And Rogue is never too wrong for Sneak Attack and if you do stay within 30ft, it's easier to switch between maneuver and archery. If you do go this route tho, I'd like to suggest dipping in Alchemist (Vivisectionist) for at least 2 levels, that nets you Mutagen (buff somewhat similar to Rage) and access to Discoveries via feats, what I'm looking for here is Vestigial Arms (maybe x2), allowing you to fire your bow while holding the whip or even dual-bow wielding with two arms.

If you dip longer you can get Fly withiut spells. And the spellcasting is potion-based and buff-themed if that makes any difference.

Also, do get a nice Int score and grab Focused Shot, so you add your Int to damage together with your Str.

That's all, I can think for now.

Barbarians may be able

[Retech]

I would just go straight fighter or ranger. None of the others are really good. What you could try is a switch-hitter ranger that shot tripping arrows and then charged the prone enemies.

Edit: As a horse archer, if the campaign has open space

[Ilorin Lorati]

Well, Combat Maneuvers are typically melee only so if you want to use them you'll need to be at pretty short range. In UC, there are Called Shots that provide different effects though.

[BlueInc]

The OP was referring to this Fighter Archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/archer), which allows him to perform a limited list of combat maneuvers from range. I've always wanted to play such a Fighter, but I'm not completely sure how viable it is. I wouldn't stay in it a second after level 11, though.

There are two Ranger archetypes without spellcasting (that I know of) - the Skirmisher (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/skirmisher) and the Trapper (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/trapper); both offer some nice things to the Ranger (not quite as good as spellcasting, but not crippling either). You might want to talk with your DM about the traps, as some of them are kind of "magical" and it looks like he's going for a low-magic/no magic world. Make sure to look at all the Archetypes - I personally don't like Favored Enemy/Terrain, and there are several that trade out those for decent benefits.

A Zen Archer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/zen-archer) Monk could work pretty well, but especially well if your DM allows Qinggong Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/qinggong-monk) and Hungry Ghost Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/hungry-ghost-monk) (scratch Hungry Ghost - it replaces several of the same abilities that Zen Archer does). Still, Qinggong Monk replaces only the class features you choose, so it stacks with all Archetypes. Again, Qinggong monk has a lot of "magical" effects, so talk with your DM first; he might not be OK with you channeling your Ki to use Scorching Ray, but gaining the effects of Snatch Arrows or Barkskin might be fine.

Rogues and Ninjas make great snipers; the main problem they run into is continually applying sneak attack from range.

If you want to go Barbarian, check out Urban Barbarian (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/paizo---barbarian-archetypes/urban-barbarian); controlled rage for +4 Dex and no penalties? Not bad. Might even be worth a dip in a primarily Ranger or Fighter build.

There are no Inquisitor Archetypes that remove spellcasting; it's not a terrible class without spellcasting (if they're in a world without spellcasters), but I still feel like you'd be better with any of the other classes on the list.

Except Cavalier. Cavalier is a trap.

[Frosty]

This is a low magic world, so my monk breathing fire or ice probably won't fly. The terrain is going to be almost exclusively Urban, so I won't be using Mounts or anything (and I don't want to be small cuz that lowers my CMB).

I know I'll get at least Fighter 3. The question is where to go after that. What classes might I dip into in order to be effective at archery and more importantly, make my CMB better?

Also, on a related notem where is it in the rules that states any relevant bonus should be added to your CMB? Like, if you are using a weapon to trip, your weapons enhancement bonus applies. Heroism would apply to all of your maneuvers (because Heroism modified all of your attack rolls, and the CMB roll is an attack roll). Because I'm doing all of my maneuvers with my bow, any bonus to a bow attack would add to my CMB :smallbiggrin:

[Larpus]

The OP was referring to this Fighter Archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/archer), which allows him to perform a limited list of combat maneuvers from range. I've always wanted to play such a Fighter, but I'm not completely sure how viable it is. I wouldn't stay in it a second after level 11, though.
Huh, never noticed that ACF, all of a sudden I'm actually interested in Fighter for more than just extra feats.


This is a low magic world, so my monk breathing fire or ice probably won't fly. The terrain is going to be almost exclusively Urban, so I won't be using Mounts or anything (and I don't want to be small cuz that lowers my CMB).

I know I'll get at least Fighter 3. The question is where to go after that. What classes might I dip into in order to be effective at archery and more importantly, make my CMB better?

Also, on a related notem where is it in the rules that states any relevant bonus should be added to your CMB? Like, if you are using a weapon to trip, your weapons enhancement bonus applies. Heroism would apply to all of your maneuvers (because Heroism modified all of your attack rolls, and the CMB roll is an attack roll). Because I'm doing all of my maneuvers with my bow, any bonus to a bow attack would add to my CMB :smallbiggrin:
First, here you go:
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
Also, it's specifically mentioned to be an "attack roll".

Second, IMHO Urban Barbarian is a great way to go, always applying the Rage bonus to Dex (or mix some Str in), coupled with Invulnerable Rager if DR/- equal to half your Barbarian level ticks your fancy.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and grab Agile Maneuvers, you're likely to have more Dex than Str, and that feat replaces your Str with Dex when calculating the CMB.

[Frosty]

First, here you go:
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
Also, it's specifically mentioned to be an "attack roll".Thanks.

Second, IMHO Urban Barbarian is a great way to go, always applying the Rage bonus to Dex (or mix some Str in), coupled with Invulnerable Rager if DR/- equal to half your Barbarian level ticks your fancy.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and grab Agile Maneuvers, you're likely to have more Dex than Str, and that feat replaces your Str with Dex when calculating the CMB.Yah Urban Barbarian sounds nice, but do you think my Fighter should take it as a dip? If so, how many levels and when? Is it worth delaying getting to Fighter 11 for the sweet Bullrush/Trip ranged maneuver?

As for Agile Maneuvers, I've already convinced my DM thatDex applies instead of Str for ranged Maneuvers, so no feat tax for me there :smallbiggrin:

What race should I be I wonder? I'm thinking Tiefling for the Darkvision, bonus to Dex, and Darkness SLA.

[Larpus]

Thanks.
Yah Urban Barbarian sounds nice, but do you think my Fighter should take it as a dip? If so, how many levels and when? Is it worth delaying getting to Fighter 11 for the sweet Bullrush/Trip ranged maneuver?

As for Agile Maneuvers, I've already convinced my DM thatDex applies instead of Str for ranged Maneuvers, so no feat tax for me there :smallbiggrin:

What race should I be I wonder? I'm thinking Tiefling for the Darkvision, bonus to Dex, and Darkness SLA.
Well, as much as I love Barbarians, their modus operanti and a free +4 Dex is very nice to have, I guess that in the long run the ranged trip/grapple (bullrush is kinda useless most of the time) will most probably make your character stronger in battle (also, there are no Rage Powers that truly support a ranged build).

Still, I'd definitely grab those other 9 of Barbarian as the Fighter stops to offer you shinies, so what might be a good idea is to grab a single Level of Barbarian at some point so you have more skills as class skills and the nice Dex bonus from Rage, this way you only delay your ranged CMBness by 1 level.

As for races, currently I'm playing a Tiefling Alchemist (but am convincing everyone that I'm a Rogue), and it's very fun, the Darkness is much more useful than I expected it to be (though a great part of that is due to my SA). But even so, they're a nice race.

Another option is ask your DM if you can playtest the new races book from Paizo, which is essentially a framework so you can make your very own race, while keeping it balanced.

And there's always Human, but Half-Elf is also an option, their bonus on Perception might help offset the fact that it's not a class skill for you, plus, they have "Iron Will" for "free".

Also kudos on getting a free feat.

[Fax Celestis]

Maaaaarksmaaaaaaan.

[Frosty]

Maaaaarksmaaaaaaan.Where is this from?

Also kudos on getting a free feat.To quote Roy, "That's how I use my Intelligence score in combat" except mine was a verbal encounter :smallcool:

[Fax Celestis]

Where is this from?

Psionics Expanded (http://paizo.com/store/games/roleplayingGames/p/pathfinderRPG/dreamscarredPress/v5748btpy8krr/discuss) (or on their forum here (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewtopic/t=1101.html), though the book version is more up to date afaik).

[Frosty]

Psionics Expanded (http://paizo.com/store/games/roleplayingGames/p/pathfinderRPG/dreamscarredPress/v5748btpy8krr/discuss) (or on their forum here (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewtopic/t=1101.html), though the book version is more up to date afaik).Sorry, not on the lit of allowed sources. If it's not in the Core book, APG, Ultimate Magic/Combat, or Game mastery guide, then it's not allowed. :smallfrown:

[DeMouse]

Personally I would say just stick with fighter.

If you want to be able to perform more than one maneuver effectively as well as being able to do deacent damage with your attacks then you NEED those bonus feats.

If you are going to hit higher levels then volley is extremely nice to ahve for an archer, especially in a no-magic campaign.

[Frosty]

Personally I would say just stick with fighter.

If you want to be able to perform more than one maneuver effectively as well as being able to do deacent damage with your attacks then you NEED those bonus feats.

If you are going to hit higher levels then volley is extremely nice to ahve for an archer, especially in a no-magic campaign.

What feats do you suggest? I'm obvious taking PBS, Precise Shot, Manyshot, Combat Expertise, Improved <maneuver>.

What else are good to improve damage output?