Permanancy through death?

[littleclotty]

Do spells that are made permanent (arcane sight) persist thorough death and resurrection? My wizard recently died and was brought back via
True Resurrection. He was dead less than an hour. My DM is of the opinion that the spell dies at death; however, he has said he will go with whatever the rules state; however, I cannot find any reference in the rules for such a situation. Help please!:smalleek:

As evidence for my case, I would like to point out that inanimate magical objects have no life, yet their effects are persistent. Also, the spell is called Permanency, so why wouldn't it persist through death?.

EDITED: I would like to clarify and say that my body was available and was used in the True Resurrection. It was just in two pieces. I was not sure if a normal Raise Dead would work on a body in two separate pieces and also I did not want to lose a level.

[DementedFellow]

Which spells are at play here. If they aren't game breakers (and there are only a few that you can make permanent which are game breakers), I don't see why it would be an issue at all.

Also you have stated already that inanimate objects have persistent effects. A corpse is an inanimate object.

[Drelua]

Also you have stated already that inanimate objects have persistent effects. A corpse is an inanimate object.

But it was True Resurrection. Does this mean they didn't have the body, and does that make any difference? I guess the question is: does a permanency spell effect the body or the soul? If it would have persisted into the after life, if it effected the soul, then I guess it should still be in effect, but there's a good chance no RAW exists to tell you what should happen.

[DementedFellow]

Under True Resurrection:

Upon completion of the spell, the creature is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health, with no loss of level (or Constitution points) or prepared spells.
emphasis mine.

I think a case could be made to say the effects are there still.

[loser0ll]

This here is from the SRD about Raise Dead and it's bad effects...
"Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The subject of the spell loses one level (or 1 Hit Die) when it is raised, just as if it had lost a level or a Hit Die to an energy-draining creature. If the subject is 1st level, it loses 2 points of Constitution instead (if this would reduce its Con to 0 or less, it can’t be raised). This level/HD loss or Constitution loss cannot be repaired by any means. A character who died with spells prepared has a 50% chance of losing any given spell upon being raised, in addition to losing spells for losing a level. A spellcasting creature that doesn’t prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) has a 50% chance of losing any given unused spell slot as if it had been used to cast a spell, in addition to losing spell slots for losing a level.

A raised creature has a number of hit points equal to its current Hit Dice. Any ability scores damaged to 0 are raised to 1. Normal poison and normal disease are cured in the process of raising the subject, but magical diseases and curses are not undone. While the spell closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage of most kinds, the body of the creature to be raised must be whole. Otherwise, missing parts are still missing when the creature is brought back to life. None of the dead creature’s equipment or possessions are affected in any way by this spell."

As you can see, it lists detailed explanations for all the downsides to your soul. It even specifically lists "None of the dead creature's equipment or possessions are affected in any way" right there at the end. I would have to say that any DM who wants to create a "But it dispels all your effects, even permanent ones, yes?" question... well, I've been a PC and a DM, and yet I can't even see why he would bother to ask himself that.

[candycorn]

If it is a spell cast on you, and the resurrection used your body, then yes. No rule effect provides for early expiration of magical effects on death.

If the resurrection created a new body, then no. The spell was on your old body, not on your soul.

[Gotterdammerung]

If your body was destroyed then the permanent spells are probably going to be lost.

If you still have your original body then the permanent spells are probably still there, especially if they are spells that can affect inanimate objects.

But honestly, your DM is a jerk if these are the things he likes to nitpick about. Has he made you fight any insane sunderer type monsters yet? Does he like to enforce the destruction of magic items on a save roll of 1? Do his wizard NPCs spontaneously cast disjunction? Do you frequently lose treasure from thiefs and ethereal filchers?

It is going to be obscure to find some exact raw answers to your question and it isn't leaning in your favor. But seriously, It isn't something worth boning a player on. They have already invested character resources into this. If he wants to take your permanent spells away he might as well follow up with robbing the party of magic items.


It's not really about whether it will or won't remain in effect. It is more about should it remain in effect. There are much more interesting ways to threaten the players. Ways that allow everyone to have a good time.

[ericgrau]

I'd say technically spells that cannot apply to objects would end, but it could go either way. Unfortunately that applies to nearly everything except resistance.

The answer is basically based on whether or not the DM (or RAW, if we can find it) allows spells in general to continue after the target dies. Permanent spells work and end the same way as regular ones.

[FelixG]

This here is from the SRD about Raise Dead and it's bad effects...
"Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The subject of the spell loses one level (or 1 Hit Die) when it is raised, just as if it had lost a level or a Hit Die to an energy-draining creature. If the subject is 1st level, it loses 2 points of Constitution instead (if this would reduce its Con to 0 or less, it can’t be raised). This level/HD loss or Constitution loss cannot be repaired by any means. A character who died with spells prepared has a 50% chance of losing any given spell upon being raised, in addition to losing spells for losing a level. A spellcasting creature that doesn’t prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) has a 50% chance of losing any given unused spell slot as if it had been used to cast a spell, in addition to losing spell slots for losing a level.

A raised creature has a number of hit points equal to its current Hit Dice. Any ability scores damaged to 0 are raised to 1. Normal poison and normal disease are cured in the process of raising the subject, but magical diseases and curses are not undone. While the spell closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage of most kinds, the body of the creature to be raised must be whole. Otherwise, missing parts are still missing when the creature is brought back to life. None of the dead creature’s equipment or possessions are affected in any way by this spell."

As you can see, it lists detailed explanations for all the downsides to your soul. It even specifically lists "None of the dead creature's equipment or possessions are affected in any way" right there at the end. I would have to say that any DM who wants to create a "But it dispels all your effects, even permanent ones, yes?" question... well, I've been a PC and a DM, and yet I can't even see why he would bother to ask himself that.

Hey! You found the part that confirms that the things will persist!

I bolded the part that is relevant.

Magical diseases and more importantly curses (which are just magical spells) persist through a resurrection from their first life.

There is no reason to assume magical benefits such as things done through permanency don't also persist.

[littleclotty]

But it was True Resurrection. Does this mean they didn't have the body, and does that make any difference? I guess the question is: does a permanency spell effect the body or the soul? If it would have persisted into the after life, if it effected the soul, then I guess it should still be in effect, but there's a good chance no RAW exists to tell you what should happen.

My body was used. It was just it two pieces. We used True Resurrection because I wasn't sure is Raise Dead would would work when the body was in two pieces and also because I didn't want to lose a level.

[Jack_Simth]

Do spells that are made permanent (arcane sight) persist thorough death and resurrection? My wizard recently died and was brought back via
True Resurrection. He was dead less than an hour. My DM is of the opinion that the spell dies at death; however, he has said he will go with whatever the rules state; however, I cannot find any reference in the rules for such a situation. Help please!:smalleek:Well, the only place spell durations are actually addresses is in the Magic Overview (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#duration), which makes no note of spells dying with the caster, just that permanent spells are vulnerable to Dispel Magic. So without another reason for it to expire, it doesn't.

Now, if you can find another section that says "Yes, spells expire on the caster's death", that'd be a different story - but to my knowledge, it's not there.