PDA

View Full Version : Dorona, thou hast blessed me! -- Building a Bard in a sub-optimal party (for a Bard)



Morph Bark
2011-10-09, 05:46 AM
- - - - - - - - - - INTRODUCTION, NOT REALLY RELEVANT - - - - - - - - - -

For the first time in ages, I am no longer just DMing all the time. For the first time in ages, I am again able to call myself a player.

I was the fourth person to roll ability scores (two players not yet present) and asked the god Dorona1 to bless the dice I would roll with.

And I instantly roll 17, 16, 14, 17, 17, 13. In that order. One of the other players, who has always optimized the most in my campaigns, immediately suggested point-buy after my second roll was higher than his highest (a 15).

After the other players arrived and thought up their characters, the party make-up right now is this:
Aasimar Incarnate
Dark Sun Elf Shadowcaster (as in Sun Elf with the Dark Creature template, using the Shadowcaster fix)
Dragonborn Goliath Barbarian/Frenzied Berzerker
Me, a Dark Deepwyrm Half-Elf Bard
Half-Vampire Changeling Warlock
[unknown race] Psion, unstatted due to player arriving very late

The Half-Vampire template has had its DR toned down by 1 and the Fast Healing does not work in daylight. I'm basically a Deepwyrm Half-Drow, except not a Drow, because Drow don't exist in the setting (Half-Drow do due to magical-accident-induced mutations and are bottom-class citizens). I felt the need to be a Half-Elf so I could take the Half-Elf Bard first level substitution level, making me the only one capable of keeping the Frenzied Berzerker in check. The others all have flight or teleportation, I'm the only one without.

So yeah, I think it's pretty clear now that none of us really talked among one another to see what we wanted to do and build a competent synergetic party. We just picked whatever we liked.



- - - - - - - - - - RELEVANT PART STARTS HERE - - - - - - - - - -


Problem is now that the Frenzied Berzerker is also our only real melee and I doubt our Warlock would like to get in the thick of it with an Eldritch Glaive. Our Incarnate will probably also be more of a skillmonkey (plus he can gain trapfinding).

Due to all Tier 1 classes being banned (our DM is most used to playing 4E and simply used the ban list I used for my last campaign (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10612184), which means no Tier 1 or Sorcerers) I probably won't be allowed to take Sublime Chord, but I haven't asked yet. Fochlucan Lyrist is also out, which is a shame. That leaves Lyric Thaumaturge (CM), Virtuoso (CAd), War Chanter (CW) or Seeker of the Song (CAr).

Or I could become a Bardblade, kill the Frenzied Berzerker and become our party's primary melee (the guy playing the Berzerker is already thinking of making a Spellthief, which I am also not fond of due to being the only spellcaster in the party and not knowing how many casters we'll face). Preferably not, since then I'd be next to the Frenzied Berzerker and still mostly boosting myself. Handy perhaps if I'm the only melee and thus don't overshadow the rest too much, but it might not be appreciated.

My build so far is the following:


Mozart "Mozzie" Osbourne
Dark Deepwyrm Half-Elf Bard 3
Str ?, Dex ?, Con ?, Int 18, Wis 13, Cha ?

ACFs: Bardic Knack replacing Bardic Knowledge, Soothing Voice (H-E sub level) replacing countersong

Flaw: Quarter Elf
Flaw: Shaky (forgot if dragonfire inspiration works with ranged, otherwise I might change this)

F: Nymph's Kiss (might change)
F: Jack of All Trades
1: Dragonfire Inspiration
3: Song of the Heart
6: ?

We start at level 8, so I got 5 more levels to fill out (LA is negated). Any suggestions? I of course plan on taking Words of Creation at either level 6 or 9, whenever my base Will save is high enough. I've already put one ability increase in my Int.

If I go Bardblade I figure my best course of action would be to get TWF, twin kukris, Blood in the Water, a lot of boost maneuvers and pounce. I could be wrong though, especially since this will be my first PC Bard.

Are there any ways to boost the casters in the party?


1Dorona is a character from our second campaign, a few years back, a Paladin//Cleric who managed to do and survive almost anything, through both ability and sheer luck. Since then he's been occassionally referenced as a god of justice, dragons and good luck. His player is the upcoming Aasimar Incarnate.

Morph Bark
2011-10-09, 08:11 AM
Altered first post after some thinking.

Chilingsworth
2011-10-09, 08:28 AM
I'm not too solid on builds, per say, but as for boosting the casters in your party:

Harmonic Chorus: 2nd level spell, Boosts the caster level and save DC's of one caster by +2 each. Concentration duration, not bad if combined with...

Sonorous Hum: You don't need to concentrate on the next spell you cast.

There's also Hymn of Praise, and its Evil equivilant Infernal Threnody, which increase the caster level of appropriately-aligned divine casters by +2.

All spells are in the Spell Compendium

Standard Bard options I always try to use: Song of the Heart (Ebberon Campaign Setting) Increases most numerical effects of bardic music by +1, including the number of hitdice granted by inspire greatness. Inspirational boost, swift action 1st level spell, increases the bonuses from inspire courage by +1.

Remember, that warlock's eldritch blast is an attack roll, he'll get the bonuses to hit and damage from your inspire courage. Also remember, anyone can apprechiate the benefit of inspire greatness and the buff spell Haste (granted, mundanes like it more, but still, you'll want it.)

Pechvarry
2011-10-09, 08:38 AM
I don't really get dragonfire inspiration for 1.5 melee characters. Especially when you can't add dice of damage to rays and eldritch blasts, but you CAN buff their attack rolls.

Lots and lots of Improvisation (Spell Compendium, again) looks pretty swell for a party like this.

Morph Bark
2011-10-09, 10:15 AM
There's also Hymn of Praise, and its Evil equivilant Infernal Threnody, which increase the caster level of appropriately-aligned divine casters by +2.

Shame that we have no divine casters in the party. Otherwise, very solid suggestions. Thanks!

Chilingsworth
2011-10-09, 10:19 AM
Shame that we have no divine casters in the party. Otherwise, very solid suggestions. Thanks!

NP, I'm playing a poorly-optimized bard (well, a Bard/Lyric Theurge/ Sublime Chord in a party with, among others, two clerics and a wizard. One of the things the character does well is buff caster level.

Dictum Mortuum
2011-10-09, 10:32 AM
You can boost their caster level later with inspire greatness, if they pick practiced spellcaster in their class.

I'd skip dragonfire inspiration and get lingering song instead. Dragonfire inspiration is only going to help the barbarian, while +to hit might help casters with ranged touch attacks.

Also do you need jack of all trades? All bards should pick melodic spellcasting; it's too good to pass.

Bloodgruve
2011-10-09, 10:42 AM
I would suggest taking the Melodic Casting feat maybe..

Greyfell
2011-10-09, 10:55 AM
rule number one of playing bards: Trade away countersong for ANYTHING else! (I love bards to death but countersong is just garbage).

I'm fond of Spellbreaker Song. It's minor bonus/penalty, but you can do it from level one on and it only affects enemy spellcasters.

If you really worry about enemy casters, bards have several other spells that love to mess with them. Creaking Cacophony being a great one, with a big radius, messes with all casters, AND adds vulnerability to sonic damage which bards are usually decent at inflicting.

Dictum Mortuum
2011-10-09, 11:26 AM
rule number one of playing bards: Trade away countersong for ANYTHING else! (I love bards to death but countersong is just garbage).

I'm fond of Spellbreaker Song. It's minor bonus/penalty, but you can do it from level one on and it only affects enemy spellcasters.

If you really worry about enemy casters, bards have several other spells that love to mess with them. Creaking Cacophony being a great one, with a big radius, messes with all casters, AND adds vulnerability to sonic damage which bards are usually decent at inflicting.

Dude.
He took the half-elf substitution level
which trades countersong :P
and it's awesome :P

Greyfell
2011-10-09, 01:20 PM
I completely missed that... yes, 1/2 elf sub is amazing. My apologies.... lol

Ifni
2011-10-09, 02:01 PM
There's the Inspire Spellpower feat from Races of Stone, which lets you add +1 CL for all allies.

The warweaver PrC from Heroes of Battle is a good buffing class, but works best with sublime chord (take the first level, which doesn't progress casting, before entering Sublime Chord, use the later levels on the Sublime Chord spell progression). It doesn't help bardic music, though, and has fairly pathetic skills.

Morph Bark
2011-10-09, 02:52 PM
I'd skip dragonfire inspiration and get lingering song instead. Dragonfire inspiration is only going to help the barbarian, while +to hit might help casters with ranged touch attacks.

Also do you need jack of all trades? All bards should pick melodic spellcasting; it's too good to pass.

Lingering Song sounds nice, but if combat lasts less than 5 rounds it's lacklustre. Also, I've just heard that the Incarnate plans on going tanky, and the Shadowcaster is taking a PrC that gives him a Large Shadow Elemental companion, so that means three melee.

I'll pick Melodic Casting for my 6th-level feat and probably go for Words of Creation on level 9. Melodic Casting requires Inspire Competence after all. I think I'll take a few levels in Virtuoso and trade the Bard's fascinate ability for Healing Hymn from Complete Champion, since Virtuoso gives that anyway.

Jack of All Trades I'd like to keep so I can use it for Knowledges, Open Lock, Tumble and Iaijutsu Focus.


There's the Inspire Spellpower feat from Races of Stone, which lets you add +1 CL for all allies.

The warweaver PrC from Heroes of Battle is a good buffing class, but works best with sublime chord (take the first level, which doesn't progress casting, before entering Sublime Chord, use the later levels on the Sublime Chord spell progression). It doesn't help bardic music, though, and has fairly pathetic skills.

Inspire Spellpower I've seen, but seemed rather lacklustre. It might be good for our Psion, but other than that, boosting caster level never really seemed useful to me if it didn't give additional spells.

I'll check if I am allowed to enter Sublime Chord. I wanted to play a Wizard or Sorcerer going into War Weaver at first, but since those were banned, I reverted to Bard.

Urpriest
2011-10-09, 03:04 PM
It saddens me that your Dark Sun Elf is not in fact an Elf from Dark Sun. Seeing as they rock (and are cannibalistic? Or is that the halflings?)

Dictum Mortuum
2011-10-09, 03:19 PM
Melodic Casting requires Inspire Competence after all.

No it doesn't.

Morph Bark
2011-10-09, 03:36 PM
It saddens me that your Dark Sun Elf is not in fact an Elf from Dark Sun. Seeing as they rock (and are cannibalistic? Or is that the halflings?)

The Halflings. Dunno what the elves do there. But yeah, I was saddened too.


No it doesn't.

Rechecked, I had it confused with Song of the Heart's prereqs. Replacing Nymph's Kiss with Melodic Casting.

Maxed skills right now are Bluff, Diplomacy, Hide, Knowledge (arcana), Move Silently, Perform (dance), Spellcraft and Use Magic. Taken three skill tricks.

Currently awaiting a reply from my DM if Sublime Chord, War Weaver and Sandshaper are allowed. If not, Bardblade with perhaps two levels of Seeker of the Song so I can do Inspire Courage + Dragonfire Inspiration at once.


During my search I also found a feat, spell or skill trick that allowed me to use swift actions to remain concentration on spells or similar effects, but I forgot where I saw it...

Urpriest
2011-10-09, 04:57 PM
The Halflings. Dunno what the elves do there. But yeah, I was saddened too.



Rechecked, I had it confused with Song of the Heart's prereqs. Replacing Nymph's Kiss with Melodic Casting.

Maxed skills right now are Bluff, Diplomacy, Hide, Knowledge (arcana), Move Silently, Perform (dance), Spellcraft and Use Magic. Taken three skill tricks.

Currently awaiting a reply from my DM if Sublime Chord, War Weaver and Sandshaper are allowed. If not, Bardblade with perhaps two levels of Seeker of the Song so I can do Inspire Courage + Dragonfire Inspiration at once.


During my search I also found a feat, spell or skill trick that allowed me to use swift actions to remain concentration on spells or similar effects, but I forgot where I saw it...

Pretty sure you're thinking of a skill trick. Swift Concentration.

sreservoir
2011-10-09, 06:13 PM
extraordinary concentration, complete arcane.

Coidzor
2011-10-10, 12:56 AM
Last I checked Dragonfire Inspiration is the same as Inspire Courage, just gives Xd6s of damage instead of +X to hit and +X to damage, and Inspire Courage works on ranged attacks.

Incanur
2011-10-10, 01:04 AM
Also remember, anyone can apprechiate the benefit of inspire greatness and the buff spell Haste (granted, mundanes like it more, but still, you'll want it.)

Just note that the frenzied berserker doesn't get another extra attack from the haste while in a frenzy.

Morph Bark
2011-10-13, 11:45 AM
Just note that the frenzied berserker doesn't get another extra attack from the haste while in a frenzy.

Wait, what? Why wouldn't he? Frenzy does not provide additional attacks, does it? :smallconfused:

Incanur
2011-10-13, 12:55 PM
Wait, what? Why wouldn't he? Frenzy does not provide additional attacks, does it? :smallconfused:

Yeah, one extra attack that doesn't stack with any other form of extra attack.

Morph Bark
2011-10-13, 01:01 PM
Ahuh, and here I thought that was only from the Whirling Frenzy rage variant.