Archer Builds, Help Needed.

[ExemplarofAvg]

So for a campaign I'm about to run all the PCs (Firsttimers the lot) have chosen to be melee or psuedo tanks. No Casters. So being the lovely DM that I am, I'm going to use that to my advantage. The campaign has one goal, escape, the PC's are on the run, they don't know why yet, but they just know they have to survive/escape. Which leads to the hunters, all archers because I want to abuse their weakness to ranged attacks but not TPK as would occur would I use Magi.

That being said I am hoping for diversity in the archers. http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Yu_Yan_Archers
These are good but too single minded.

Leader
Large Great Crossbow Fighter (Thug Variant) Possibly some Factotum just for an all around use of Intelligence.
Education and Knowledge Devotion.

Arcane Archer
Base Class: ?
(Thoughts on Duskblade or SoTAO Ranger/Paladin or a Warmage?)
Spells to use: ?
Not standard AA, I turn to Schneekey whose fix I endorse.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-71572.html

Psionic Archer
Psychic Warrior
Feats
Psionic Shot
Greater Psionic Shot
Fell Shot
Psicrystal Affinity
Psionic Meditation
Psicrystal Containment
Zen Archery
Return Shot
For the Greater Psionic Shot, then Psicrystal refocus rinse and repeat.

Ragey Archer
Goliath Barbarian, (Maybe Cragtop Archer)
Large Composite Greatbow
The Ranged Power Attack feat (whose name escapes me at this moment) Ensure holes are punched through anything thinner than reinforced steel.
Done this a few times.

Mobile Archer
Scout+Ranged Skirmish feat
Punching holes from multiple directions.
Standard Archer for me.

Cleric Archer
Pretty Standard Zen Archery Build

Sublime Archer, the only one I am completely in the dark on.
Comments, Concerns, Colloquialisms feel free.

Also have heard chatter about Monk Archers, more info and advice?

What's their strike range, you ask? Let's put it this way: sagittars aim their bows using maps.
- Otak, Tin Street shopkeep
http://magiccards.info/rav/en/229.html

Otak knows what I'm aiming for. I know archers are Sub-par but am looking for ways to fix that, at least in my campaign.

[ExemplarofAvg]

10 Hour Bump, just so I don't feel as bad.

[Fenryr]

For Arcane Archer, I suggest the Pathfinder version (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/arcane-archer).

If you want a Ranger, try Mystic Ranger (Dragon Magazine 310). Also, check Spell Compendium for some nice spells for Ranger.

Scout? Ranger/Scout with Swift Hunter feat is much better.

Cleric? Get all Knowledges and Knowledge Devotion if you can.

And final thingie. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0)

[Flickerdart]

Hexblades can use Hexbands (MIC) to add Charisma to damage, making them acceptable archers. A Hexblade/Paladin of Slaughter, in addition to having insane saves, can combine Hexbands with Divine Might to put a lot of hurt down relatively quickly, though that burns resources.

There is actually no Ranged Power Attack feat outside of Pathfinder.

A hand crossbow user who dual wields them, along with one of the many ways to reload without using hands, can put a ton of bolts into the air in one round, and quantity has a quality all its own. It takes a lot of feats, and it's pretty difficult to keep your to-hit up from all the penalties you take, but it can be done.

[ericgrau]

Don't worry it often takes 24 hours to get a reply (EDIT: and double ninja'd at that, apparently).

The arcane archer looks like it still uses the standard fighter / ranger => arcane archer build, focusing on arrows rather than spells. Except now you can exploit more low level utility spells like see invisibility and spider climb. Levitate and eventually fly are particularly nice for archers, but mind the penalties on levitate.

For the barbarian I think there's a whirling frenzy ACF or I forget what it's called that gives an extra attack for the rage instead of other bonuses. For that matter every archer on the list should have rapid shot.

IIRC the monk archers tend to be zen archers.

There should probably be one or multiple stealthy archers on that list. Check out the hide rules for rules on sniping. It's a -20 penalty to the hide check but don't forget spot gets a -1 for every 10 feet and bows can fire at up to 10 range increments away. Also check out the shadow and silent moves armor enchantments, or similar wondrous items. I would however let the PCs think of alternate ways to detect the sniper(s) and/or duck into cover themselves and/or have a way to flee into the next area and then notice the snipers if they pursue (because you cannot hide without cover or concealment, and these things are not in every square). Because having everything hinge on a skill check you can't make gets pretty lame.

Also check the rules on cover (+4 AC, +2 reflex saves), kneeling (+2 ranged AC, -2 melee AC) and improved cover (+8 AC, +10 hide, +4 reflex saves, basically extreme cover such as arrow slits). Archers take strategic advantage of range, terrain and structures in general. Any that stand there out in the open and shoot at close range will be quickly out-damaged.

[candycorn]

There is actually no Ranged Power Attack feat outside of Pathfinder.There's one for thrown weapons, and Bloodstorm Blade can use it for thrown weapons also.

[Flickerdart]

There's one for thrown weapons, and Bloodstorm Blade can use it for thrown weapons also.
I'm quite aware, however, unless the OP was throwing his Greatbows like boomerangs, that doesn't really help anyone.

[ExemplarofAvg]

Fenryr
1. Hmm, if anything might take the Spellcasting advancement from Pathfinder for Arcane Archer
2. Mystic Ranger?
3. Scout trumps Ranger by my experience, so long as they remember to stay mobile there’s not much reason for a swift hunter.
4. Cleric, yeah Standard Cleric Zen Archery Stuff.
5. Archery Handbook is nice, however, lots of it is incomplete.

Flickerdart
1. The oddest thing I was just contemplating a Hexblade/Arcane Archer Nice Bab however not much to put through his arrows. And I’m aware of the saves monster but I had never considered the use for an archer.
2. And yes, but our group has adapted the feat to our 3.5. I merely forgot it’s name.
3. As for Handcrossbow In my searchings I’ve crossed a few feats, tricks, gimmicks and abilities that allow the dual Handcrossbows to reach Semi-Auto capacity, but with the same number of feats 1 Large Great Crossbow Bolt can be fired with a more accurate shot (Does slightly less damage but better to hit) Quality outweighs Quantity where is Quonts.

Ericgrau
1. I’ve usually experienced quite quickly and within about 20 or so views, which is why after 10 hours and 70+ Views I decided to bump.
2. And that is why I’m trying to find something out of the ordinary.
3. Frenzy is nice, but I feel that at a range the extra strength will better for punching holes and allowing more accurate shots, that and if the PC’s should rush to melee A Raging Goliath (With Monkey Grip) is not something they will wish to be facing.
4. Hmm, Zen Archery does compliment a Monk nicely, but Ranged Flurry of Blows? Listed as possible somewhere?
5. Scout= Skirmishing Sniper, as I had said I’ve had much experience with the class.
6. Rules duly noted, thank you.

[ExemplarofAvg]

I'm quite aware, however, unless the OP was throwing his Greatbows like boomerangs, that doesn't really help anyone.

No, Although that would be highly amusing and am currently debating how well a Bow with the Thrown and Returning qualities would seem and how much it would be hurt to hit with a Bow in that manner (Or a Crossbow for that matter)

[ericgrau]

It would probably be an improvised club. -4 to hit, 1d6 + strength. There are multiple ways around improvised weapon penalties, though I don't remember them off the top of my head. Maybe throw anything from pathfinder. There are probably bows out there that are also melee weapons, which would also work once you add the throwing enchantment. I think there's at least one in the magic item compendium, among others. All this is mostly for fun, though, probably not too effective.

What might be more interesting would be to give the arcane archer a melee-capable spell storing bow and weapon finesse (if needed). Maybe a second off-hand weapon as well such as a dagger or kukri. Or quick draw multiple bows or spears from a quiver of elhonna, passing the first weapon to the off-hand while drawing the second. Then if a PC gets up close, bam, unleash a nasty spell or two.

[Flickerdart]

There isn't really a way that attacks with a Great Crossbow can outweigh attacks with paired Hand Crossbows: archery relies on bonus damage, and the more attacks you can make, the more bonus damage you get.

[ExemplarofAvg]

It would probably be an improvised club. -4 to hit, 1d6 + strength. There are multiple ways around improvised weapon penalties, though I don't remember them off the top of my head. Maybe throw anything from pathfinder. There are probably bows out there that are also melee weapons, which would also work once you add the throwing enchantment. I think there's at least one in the magic item compendium, among others. All this is mostly for fun, though, probably not too effective.

Swordbow is first and foremost and I believe there is something about elven bows in Races of the Wild.


There isn't really a way that attacks with a Great Crossbow can outweigh attacks with paired Hand Crossbows: archery relies on bonus damage, and the more attacks you can make, the more bonus damage you get.

They hit better? They hit harder? They hit Farther?
Handcrossbow 1d4 19-20/x2 30ft 100gp Each
Great Crossbow 2d8 18-20/x2 120ft 150gp Each

Actually to compare the builds the dual-hands fires mayhaps 8 shots at the highest point, at a penalty albeit, so to hit: 20+Dex+1-? 1d4+Dex(Because who passes on Crossbow sniper ever, and that Drow Handcrossbow feat does wonders for lightening the feat load.)

I'll still take the 3d8+Dex That will shoot 1 bolt, reliably and powerfully

Harder, Better, Faster Stronger.
Handcrossbows: Faster
Great Crossbow: Harder, Better, Stronger.
Actually, seeing as how velocity is part of the distance calculation, Great Crossbow has faster as well, Handcrossbows reload faster.

[ericgrau]

He means after bonus damage it's better to have more attacks, but ya on NPCs they don't have that much gear to boost the damage and more range is better for handling a party of archers vs. a party of melee. A mixed party of 4 might not benefit as much from range, but all archers does.

So, spell storing swordbow on the arcane archer, maybe, as a 1 shot melee backup boom. Or that plus a spell storing spiked gauntlet to one-time TWF double boom.

[Flickerdart]

Only 8 shots? Considerably more.

Also, consider the fact that most precision damage does not function beyond 30ft range (or 60ft range with Dead Eye). It's trivial to boost range to that through the use of the crossbow sights. Sure, you might be shooting at a higher range with the Great Crossbow, but at 2d8 points of damage you're not impressing anybody beyond level two. To-hit is really not a problem, because you can always adjust the amount of shots you are firing to compensate for a higher AC, or rely on the massed volley to land at least a couple of hits.

[ExemplarofAvg]

He means after bonus damage it's better to have more attacks, but ya on NPCs they don't have that much gear to boost the damage and more range is better for handling a party of archers vs. a party of melee. A mixed party of 4 might not benefit as much from range, but all archers does.

So, spell storing swordbow on the arcane archer, maybe, as a 1 shot melee backup boom.

I was thinking Swordbows on the lot of them.
Great for the Barbarian
Short for the Scout
Long for everyone else.
That covers a Ranged weapon and a melee should it turn as such. Add enchantments as needed, Flavour for taste. Bam.

[Fenryr]

Fenryr
1. Hmm, if anything might take the Spellcasting advancement from Pathfinder for Arcane Archer
2. Mystic Ranger?
3. Scout trumps Ranger by my experience, so long as they remember to stay mobile there’s not much reason for a swift hunter.
4. Cleric, yeah Standard Cleric Zen Archery Stuff.
5. Archery Handbook is nice, however, lots of it is incomplete.


1. Glad to make you consider.
2. Mystic Ranger. Is a variant of the Ranger that trades some class features (loses animal companion, delays Favored Enemy and Combat Style and loses some proficiencies) and gets spell since level 1. It goes from spells Level 0 to Level 5. It's found in Dragon Magazine 336.
3. Pardon me, but have you read the feat? The level stacks for Skirmish and you can apply Skirmish damage to Favored Enemies, even when they're immune to it. That plus Greater Manyshot it's lots of damage. I am talking of combat, only. Maybe the Scout serves better for your ideas.
4. Good.
5. This may also help. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872930/The_3.5_Ranger_Handbook) Not as good as the other but has some special mentions.

[Silva Stormrage]

Hate to shamelessly support my own homebrew but I just recently made a homebrew in my sig "ebon marksman" which I believe would be a pretty effective at exploiting opponents with no ranged attacks and can also be customized pretty decently. Refluff if you don't like the theme. :smallbiggrin:

For Psychic warrior archers inconsistent location would be really useful. I forget what level it is so it might not be usable but it basically allows a swift action teleport every round. Very useful for getting away from the melee brutes.

[ExemplarofAvg]

1. Glad to make you consider.
2. Mystic Ranger. Is a variant of the Ranger that trades some class features (loses animal companion, delays Favored Enemy and Combat Style and loses some proficiencies) and gets spell since level 1. It goes from spells Level 0 to Level 5. It's found in Dragon Magazine 336.
3. Pardon me, but have you read the feat? The level stacks for Skirmish and you can apply Skirmish damage to Favored Enemies, even when they're immune to it. That plus Greater Manyshot it's lots of damage. I am talking of combat, only. Maybe the Scout serves better for your ideas.
4. Good.
5. This may also help. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872930/The_3.5_Ranger_Handbook) Not as good as the other but has some special mentions.

2. So, SoTAO Mystic Ranger would murder all as an Arcane Archer?
3. Ah, yes the scout style I work with uses Shot on the Run and Spring Attack. Skirmish Tactics. With the Ranged Skirmisher Feat I fire arrows from 60ft away and plunge them into the hearts of my enemies. Basically, Move(Tumble as appropriate) Attack, Move, Hide. Then there's the Charging Spring Attack with the melee weapon so long as the distance moved after the attack is greater than the distance moved before the attack. It's feat intensive and would benefit from the Ranger I realize (Higher Bab and what not) But Straight Scout improves the mobility and stealth of the character better than Ranger thrown in.
5. I find none of the books truly help. But thank you for showing me I was indeed looking in the right places.


Hate to shamelessly support my own homebrew but I just recently made a homebrew in my sig "ebon marksman" which I believe would be a pretty effective at exploiting opponents with no ranged attacks and can also be customized pretty decently. Refluff if you don't like the theme. :smallbiggrin:

For Psychic warrior archers inconsistent location would be really useful. I forget what level it is so it might not be usable but it basically allows a swift action teleport every round. Very useful for getting away from the melee brutes.

No, please feel free, shameless plug away, we all want to shameless plug our own work for recognition of what we have done. For example I have an NPC prestige Class, 10 levels, d12 Hd, Perfect Bab and Saves, 8+Int skillset. You choose class skills. And you get your level in the class to ALL rolls, it's called the Exemplar.

[Fenryr]

2. So, SoTAO Mystic Ranger would murder all as an Arcane Archer?


The Mystic Ranger doesn't has +1 Arrows that scale with level and the like but I don't think that's important. The Mystic Ranger with SoTAO is very nice.


3. Ah, yes the scout style I work with uses Shot on the Run and Spring Attack. Skirmish Tactics. With the Ranged Skirmisher Feat I fire arrows from 60ft away and plunge them into the hearts of my enemies. Basically, Move(Tumble as appropriate) Attack, Move, Hide. Then there's the Charging Spring Attack with the melee weapon so long as the distance moved after the attack is greater than the distance moved before the attack. It's feat intensive and would benefit from the Ranger I realize (Higher Bab and what not) But Straight Scout improves the mobility and stealth of the character better than Ranger thrown in.


Stealth? Shadow Creature Template. The Forgotten Realms version has Hide in Plain Sight and a few goodies for +1 LA. Mobility? The Ranger can use Manyshot and Greater Manyshot with a better BAB. Also, I remember a Tactical Feat that allows to snipe AND move. You can add this two to a Ranger to make him better or to a Scout to make him even better.

I think it's my two cents. I have nothing new to offer.

[Flickerdart]

Actually, the Mystic Ranger's spellcasting advancement stops abruptly around 10th level. While you do gain a couple more spells per day, it's not really enough to stop you from multiclassing if you really want, even into 5/10 or 0/10 classes.

[ExemplarofAvg]

The Mystic Ranger doesn't has +1 Arrows that scale with level and the like but I don't think that's important. The Mystic Ranger with SoTAO is very nice.



Stealth? Shadow Creature Template. The Forgotten Realms version has Hide in Plain Sight and a few goodies for +1 LA. Mobility? The Ranger can use Manyshot and Greater Manyshot with a better BAB. Also, I remember a Tactical Feat that allows to snipe AND move. You can add this two to a Ranger to make him better or to a Scout to make him even better.

I think it's my two cents. I have nothing new to offer.

Oh, I meant Mystic SoTAO Ranger Prestiging into Arcane Archer, good idea?

Nah, Scout stays, I love it the way it is.


Actually, the Mystic Ranger's spellcasting advancement stops abruptly around 10th level. While you do gain a couple more spells per day, it's not really enough to stop you from multiclassing if you really want, even into 5/10 or 0/10 classes.

Hmm, So the Ranger could work nicely.

[Safety Sword]

I didn't see any mention of a sneak attack based archer.

Rogue with point blank shot, precise shot and ranks in hide is about all you need.

At higher levels a way to Hide in Plain Sight and big hide modifier can be fun. *Surprise! Sneak attack. Sneak attack. Hide. Sneak attack. Hide. etc *

[ExemplarofAvg]

I didn't see any mention of a sneak attack based archer.

Rogue with point blank shot, precise shot and ranks in hide is about all you need.

At higher levels a way to Hide in Plain Sight and big hide modifier can be fun. *Surprise! Sneak attack. Sneak attack. Hide. Sneak attack. Hide. etc *

Hmm, yeah, I did forget that.

[Randomguy]

Put at least one of them on a flying carpet. Death from above FTW.

8 levels of halfling outrider lets you full attack from a mount after your mount moves more than 5 feet, but no more than 1 move action. This is extra awesome for scouts, who can now get their skirmish bonus for every attack in a full attack while mounted. Unfortunately, this means they lose 8 levels of potential skirmish damage. Your call on whether or not this is worth it, but remember that even though you have less skirmish bonus damage, you have more opportunities to deal that damage per round. To qualify more quickly, have your scout multiclass ranger and take the swift hunter feat, so ranger levels count for skirmish and you can meet the BAB requirements faster.

For your arcane archer, don't use a duskblade unless you houserule that you can imbue an arrow with a touch attack. None of the duskblades class features can be used with a ranged weapon, and the only spell duskblades have on their list that can be imbued in an arrow is obscuring mist.

You can't flurry with ranged weapons for monks, but you can flurry with shuriken. Unfortunately you'll need a ton of range enhancers (feats and items and the like), since shuriken have bad range. Oh, and it will cost a lot to get magic shuriken, since you have to keep buying them.
What might be fun is an elf monk with a longbow, since they're fast enough to stay out of range but strong enough to surprise the people that go into melee with them.

If you have someone use crossbows, get rapid reload and dual wield light crossbows. You could always just tie them to your wrists so you can let go of one to load the other. That way you can full attack with crossbows. Also, make the crossbow wielder someone with precision damage so you can make good use of the crossbow sniper feat, which lets you skirmish or sneak attack out to 60 feat, and adds half your dex bonus to ranged damage. (This could be good for the halfling outrider.)

EDIT: Oh, for Yu Yan archer style fighting, there are a bunch of feats in complete warrior like ranged pin, ranged sunder and ranged disarm.

[Fenryr]

As far as I know, Arcane Archer (the hombrew link you gave and the PF) only gives arcane spellcasting. A Ranger with SotAO is still a divine spellcaster. His spell slots are divine. So, no.

Well, that's what I know. You may fix that or something.