Using/abusing "Lightning mace" style feat (NO aptitude weapons)

[Greyfell]

Title pretty much says it all. I've tweaked this idea back and forth several times, and other then aptitude weapons (which I really dislike), I haven't found a way that it really takes off very amazingly.

This build is basically being tweaked as a standard NPC/villian/thug for one of my campaigns, so it'd be nice if he'd be moderately effective from low levels (2-5) up until 20th or so. Or as effective as any melee heavy build is going to be at high levels...

question one: Whats the best critical you can manage without aptitude tricks?

Question two: is their a way for light mace to become a 'monk weapon'? (I have a feeling that sheer number of attacks is going to be big here, so flurry would be rather good)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Improved Critical + Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) 7 + Disciple of Dispater 4 = Light Maces with a 16-20 threat range. Sadly you can't fit both DoD 8 and PWM 7 into one (non-gestalt) build, but that would only bring it down to 15-20, same as a Keen Kukri. What you'll end up with is a lackluster character who can't really do anything very well, including this. Lightning Maces is not significant enough to be a signature move unless you're using Aptitude tricks, otherwise you've got a lot of class levels that don't really help anything but his BAB and threat range. I would strongly suggest you pick a different shtick for this guy and use a more viable (i.e. higher tier) build.

[Cog]

question one: Whats the best critical you can manage without aptitude tricks?
Disciple of Dispater increases crit range, but is from a 3.0 source, when crit range stacking was looser. However, Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) is 3.5 and gives similar benefits. Further, it's a psionic class, so it's a valid target for the Tashalatora feat, given your desire for Monk levels.


Question two: is their a way for light mace to become a 'monk weapon'? (I have a feeling that sheer number of attacks is going to be big here, so flurry would be rather good)
Unorthodox Flurry feat, Dragon Compendium.

Edit: Ninjas! If I hadn't paused to capitalize a stray C I'd have been first.

[Greyfell]

First and foremost, I appreciate your candor and directness in telling me you don't approve of the overall concept.

My usual gaming group consists of very experienced players who have voluntarily limited themselves by not playing tier 1 (and in some cases, not even tier 2!) classes. They've seen all the standard power builds that DM's try and use to challenge them, and it'd be nice to throw something that is not a two handed power attack build for melee.

It's about flavor (to a degree). If the character presents a cool/interesting image (a monk with two maces slung on his belt, no armor and an evil smile is way more interesting to my gang then yet another barbarian/berserker in furs, or a man in full plate and a great sword) and is moderately effective, he'll do fine in the campaigns we tend to run.

Looks like I really need to read over Psychic weapon master, as you BOTH suggested it within seconds of each other.


Improved Critical + Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) 7 + Disciple of Dispater 4 = Light Maces with a 16-20 threat range. Sadly you can't fit both DoD 8 and PWM 7 into one (non-gestalt) build, but that would only bring it down to 15-20, same as a Keen Kukri. What you'll end up with is a lackluster character who can't really do anything very well, including this. Lightning Maces is not significant enough to be a signature move unless you're using Aptitude tricks, otherwise you've got a lot of class levels that don't really help anything but his BAB and threat range. I would strongly suggest you pick a different shtick for this guy and use a more viable (i.e. higher tier) build.

[Cog]

Looks like I really need to read over Psychic weapon master, as you BOTH suggested it within seconds of each other.
It's not so much that it's great as that it's one of the very few ways to get a stacking crit range increase.

[Greyfell]

Full BaB, lots of abilities, plus a very similar ability to Kensai's 'enchant your own weapon" seems good to me. Plus, as you pointed out, it progresses psionics a bit so the tashalatora/monk idea starts to mesh better. I'll try to tinker up a build later and post it here for further comment.

[Cog]

Full BaB, lots of abilities, plus a very similar ability to Kensai's 'enchant your own weapon" seems good to me. Plus, as you pointed out, it progresses psionics a bit so the tashalatora/monk idea starts to mesh better. I'll try to tinker up a build later and post it here for further comment.
Horrid feat prerequisites cut into that, and class abilities that can be replicated with character wealth are much less useful. There's only half manifesting progression, so you're falling behind there (though Tash counts class level instead of ML, so it's still fine in that respect), and many of the abilities don't do much - an additional +1 to attack when you've probably lost BAB to enter, and bonus feats that you could simply have chosen in place of the qualifying feats. Keep in mind that Monk has "lots of abilities" as well.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Tashalatora Cobra-Strike Monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les)/ Psychic Warrior/ Psychic Weapon Master wouldn't be too bad. Ardent would be a better choice if you can use flaws, given all the feats you'll need. You would want to get Hidden Talent: Inertial Armor unless you use Substitute Powers (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) to add it to an existing mantle.

Give him a Psicrystal, have him use Share Pain on it every day plus Vigor shared with it to make him extremely difficult to kill, and don't forget about the Psicrystal's Hardness and be sure to keep it completely hidden. Definitely give him Elusive Target to completely negate any Power Attack bonus damage your hardest-hitting PC gets. Possibly look into Temerad School in Dragon magazine 309, p. 67, which would give him a second target for his Dodge feat, and thus a second Elusive Target target, though it has some drawbacks. (He loses its benefit if he attacks an opponent who hasn't attacked him first, but if it's not the first time he's fought them you can probably ignore that.)

[Glimbur]

Improved Critical + Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) 7 + Disciple of Dispater 4 = Light Maces with a 16-20 threat range. Sadly you can't fit both DoD 8 and PWM 7 into one (non-gestalt) build, but that would only bring it down to 15-20, same as a Keen Kukri. What you'll end up with is a lackluster character who can't really do anything very well, including this. Lightning Maces is not significant enough to be a signature move unless you're using Aptitude tricks, otherwise you've got a lot of class levels that don't really help anything but his BAB and threat range. I would strongly suggest you pick a different shtick for this guy and use a more viable (i.e. higher tier) build.

Psychic Weapon Master requires a crystal weapon. Disciple of Dispater requires an iron weapon. Crystal is considered to be metal for the purposes of disallowing crystal armor to druids, and it "possesses the properties of a similar masterwork steel weapon or armor, except for visual appearance", but it is unclear whether one of those properties is "behaving like iron for purposes of a Disciple of Dispater".

[mootoall]

Don't some readings of the Warblade's Weapon Aptitude allow feats like Lightning Maces and Boomerang Daze to be used with other weapons?

[hex0]

Shou Disciple is probably what you are looking for. Advances flurry, full bab, and flurry with any weapon.

[Claudius Maximus]

Psychic Weapon Master requires a crystal weapon. Disciple of Dispater requires an iron weapon. Crystal is considered to be metal for the purposes of disallowing crystal armor to druids, and it "possesses the properties of a similar masterwork steel weapon or armor, except for visual appearance", but it is unclear whether one of those properties is "behaving like iron for purposes of a Disciple of Dispater".

I believe there's a material called Crysteel or something like that which solves this problem.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Don't some readings of the Warblade's Weapon Aptitude allow feats like Lightning Maces and Boomerang Daze to be used with other weapons?

"Each morning, you can spend 1 hour in weapon practice to change the designated weapon for any feat you have that applies to only a single weapon (such as Weapon Focus)."

"Whenever you roll a threat on an attack roll while using a light mace in each hand, you gain an additional attack at that same attack bonus."

Lightning Maces itself has no effect which is applied to any specific weapon. It has a requirement that you hold a light mace in each hand, and an effect which applies to your character whenever a critical threat occurs. You could hold two light maces and make a full attack of unarmed strikes, without even swinging either mace, and gain the full benefit of this feat. All of your attacks and critical threats would be made with unarmed strikes, all of your additional attacks via this feat would be made as unarmed strikes, it only requires that you be holding maces, not that you attack with them. None of the feat's benefits applies specifically to those maces, thus it cannot be switched to benefit a different specific weapon.

Edit: That would actually be a viable choice, go something like (Kung-Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk) Monk 1/ (Martial (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard)) Wizard 4/ Enlightened Fist 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight, get two +1 Defending Light Maces, put Greater Magic Weapon on both and just hold them to benefit from the AC bonus. Get both Lightning Maces and Roundabout Kick (CW), use unarmed strikes for all of your attacks, and be sure to put Greater Mighty Wallop and Greater Magic Weapon on everything (get a Lesser Rod of Chain Spell). You can even put Dolorous Blow on your unarmed strikes.