[3.5] How much optimization is "necessary"?

[Adamantrue]

So, because of This Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217730), I've been playing around with possible Paladin builds. The one that has really grown on me is an Elven Fighter 2/Paladin 15/Marshal 3, using a Drakkensteed and taking the Ranged Smite racial option.

I've burnt one of my 4th level spells for a Raptor Arrow, and I picked up a Holy Force Composite Longbow.

Now...the problem I'm having is that I don't quite have enough Feats to fully support Mounted Melee Combat, Archery, and play around with some Paladin-specific choices (Battle Blessing, Celestial Mount, Divine Feats), which I kinda feel is really needed.

This is what I'm looking at now:

Fighter Option: Trade Tower Shield for Rider's Shield proficiency
Flaw: Meager Fortitude
Flaw Bonus: Mounted Combat
1st Level (Fighter 1): Mounted Archery, Ride-By Attack
2nd Level (Fighter 2): Spirited Charge
3rd Level (Paladin 1): Power Attack
6th Level (Paladin 4): Celestial Mount
9th Level (Paladin 7): Mounted Casting*
12th Level (Paladin 10): Battle Blessing
15th Level (Paladin 13): Divine Vigor
18th Level (Marshal 1): Divine Shield, Skill Focus (Diplomacy)

I'm using a 25 Point Buy, and I'm a little lean on Skill Points, so I felt like I needed to pick up Mounted Casting. But that's really the easiest one for me to wriggle out of, by changing my Ability Score allocation so I can get a few ranks in Concentration.

I also could rearrange where I pick up the levels, and start with Marshal to pick up a few more Skill Points to help ease the burden. It seems a little artificial (in a real game, I'd probably start with Fighter). So there is another place I could pick up the slack.

I could pick up another Flaw too. Slow would work alright, as I plan on having the build constantly mounted anyways.

But the real question is in the Feats & Tactics themselves. Can Ranged Smite along with Mounted Archery, Raptor Arrows, and a Holy Force Bow carry enough weight by themselves that I can focus on the other areas like I'd like?

How far do I have to focus on any aspect for me to be competent enough at the task?

[hex0]

Can you take Prestige Paladin instead? You could go Fighter 2/Cleric 3/Prestige Paladin. Better spells and domains.

[herrhauptmann]

I'd say that archery in general is rather poorly supported in 3.5. A lot of feats, most of hte best enchantments are very expensive, or just can't be used on ranged weapons, etc. All this despite the fact that hordes of highly skilled mounted archers was a real threat in certain times/regions of the world. It's also a common archetype in fantasy...

It's even worse for you, since you're trying to do both melee and archery (it seems). I'd say pick one or the other.

Though I don't know the specifics, I think you should ditch mounted casting too. It sounds like a feat intended for a wizard/cleric that rides with the DothrakiMongol horde. If so, it's wasted. Most of the best paladin spells are either ones you'll be casting out of combat, or as immediate/swift actions to slightly boost a charge. Probably won't be useful unless you're likely to be casting spells at least 3 out of 4 rounds.

If you want archery, have you seen the 'splitting' enchantment? It's from I think Champions of Ruin.

[Lord Ruby34]

Note that you don't provoke an AoO for any spells that are cast as a swift action, so you don't really need concentration at all.

[Adamantrue]

Really? I was under the impression that if I wanted to cast Find the Gap immediately before a Charge, I'd have to make a Concentration check because my mount will be making a double move (even with Battle Blessing). If that isn't the case...that would make a lot of things easier.

hex0, I'm trying to play around with the paladin base class specifically. Check out the Thread I mentioned at the beginning...it was the inspiration of this tinkerin' around, and is a bit of fun in all honesty.

herrhauptmann, I can't find my copy of CoR for reference. How would that work with a Raptor Arrow?

However, I really do want to swing both Archery and Mounted Melee, just for versatility. Its just a matter of how much is enough to be competent, instead of seeking overwhelming dominance (or as close as a Paladin gets, anyways).

[herrhauptmann]

Note that you don't provoke an AoO for any spells that are cast as a swift action, so you don't really need concentration at all.

Really?? Sweet.

Also, your spells are a lot lower level than a sorc/wiz of your level, so it's a lot easier to cast them and make the concentration checks.
10th level sorc/wiz? 5th level spells. Maxed out concentration: 13ranks+con
10th level paladin? 2nd level spells. Maxed out concentration: 13ranks+con. At half max? 6-7 ranks+con.

edit:
I'm not sure how it would work with a raptor arrow. (What book is the raptor arrow in?)

[Adamantrue]

Magic Item Compendium. My build sacs a 4th level spell instead of taking True Believer.

[edit]

Swift Actions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#swiftActions)...apparently so.

[hex0]

I see. If you can get the Animal domain as a bonus you could take Prestige Ranger off of Paladin for more spells and class features. Paladin just doesn't get much and I usually would play a Pious Templar instead.

[Incanur]

The level of optimization totally depends on the campaign in question. What's the rest of the group like?

[ericgrau]

Swift spells don't provoke from casting in melee but you still need the concentration check for being atop a vigorously moving thing, such as a moving mount. It's only DC 10 + spell level which isn't that hard by the time you get paladin spells. 2 con mod + 7 ranks is already a +9 vs. DC 11 at level 4, and it only gets easier from there. A full gallop (a run action) is harder, but that's rare.

Archery does less damage but it works if you can take advantage of your range and the terrain. A mount lets you do this by letting you full attack and yet keep a large distance so you don't get hit, provided the campaign has terrain that allows this. As for the original question, generally you need to stick 90% with things that are archery or mount related. 1 or 2 side things won't kill you and if they're situationally useful enough it might even be a net gain. The real answer, however, is you need to be able to match whatever people you play with. If they're really lax then you can be too. If not, then not.

[Ravens_cry]

The level of optimization totally depends on the campaign in question. What's the rest of the group like?
Exactly right. Anything short of theoretical optimization (and even possibly that), is A-OK in the right group. Conversely, even builds and classes that are generally consider " Low-Tier" might be sufficient or even overpowered, in the right group.
It's not just the other players though, DM's have differing abilities and comfort zones as well.
Bringing a high optimization group to a game run by a DM who one knows to be more comfortable and able to challenge lower optimization groups is just rude.

[Adamantrue]

Oh, I'm normally a Tier 5 Player (my favorite Classes are Fighters, Knights, and Monks...you know, the ones that are looked down on). This is just an optimization experiment in cranking out the most I can from a Paladin.

Try re-adjusting things this morning...

Flaws: Meager Fortitude, Slow
Flaw Bonus: Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack
1st Level (Marshal 1): Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Mounted Archery
2nd Level (Fighter 1): Power Attack, trade Tower Shield for Rider's Shield
3rd Level (Paladin 1): Spirited Charge
6th Level (Paladin 4): Celestial Mount (Drakkensteed)
9th Level (Paladin 7): Battle Blessing
12th Level (Paladin 10): Sacred Healing (Complete Divine version)
15th Level (Paladin 13): Divine Vigor
18th Level (Marshal 2): Divine Shield
19th Level (Fighter 2): Improved Mounted Archery

Remixing the Fighter & Marshal progression freed up enough Skill Points that I could lose Mounted Spellcasting (though only 10 ranks, +12 to Concentration checks at the moment), and the addition of the Slow Flaw gave me another one (I plan on being Mounted anyways). Lets me pick up Improved Mounted Archery & Sacred Healing.

What I'm currently planning as a strategy is to use a Dancing Lance & Animated Rider's Shield, so I can unload with the Bow while still making Mounted Charges. Find the Gap & a hefty Power Attack with the Lance (x3 returns) on the way in, Ranged Smite with the Raptor Arrow & whatever else I stock in my quivers on the way out. If I'm having problems, I can always use Divine Sacrifice (BoED) at a distance with the Bow (can you use the Temporary Hit Points from Divine Vigor for Divine Sacrifice?) or Two-Hand with the Lance (x6 Power Attack returns).

I only have a +14 to Diplomacy, but that should be adequate so long as I'm not trying to really abuse it. I could rearrange things to get a +16 & grab the Motivate Charisma Aura, but I'm kinda attached to Motivate Dexterity for the bonus to Ride & Initiative, and I'd like to keep Watchful Eye handy in case I need to buff my Mount's Reflex saves (not to mention my own).

How is this starting to look? I concede the point that its so focused on Mounted Combat that it breaks down in 5 ft corridors (which isn't actually a problem in most games I play in or run), and that I'm not familiar enough with higher-level play to know how viable this is at 20th level...but it doesn't look so bad from where I'm sitting.

What other things can I do for this? More tweaks to what I got here? The Drakkensteed's Feat choices? Equipment or Spells I should be mindful of (I still haven't found CoR)? Abandon all hope?

[gkathellar]

If you're trying to get the Most You Can™ from the Paladin, then you need Sword of the Arcane Order and Mystic Fire Knight. If you can get into it, Prestige Ranger is also very good for Paladins (I know, weird), since it'll give you the ranger's excellent spell list. Combine the two and you'll have 4th-level Ranger, Paladin and Wizard spells.

Also, Serenity from Dragon Compendium reduces MAD tremendously by keying you to Wisdom instead of Charisma. Pious Templar can get you Mettle, and if you're feeling really cheap you grab a level or two of Monk/Swordsage/Moon-Warded Ranger and a level of Shiba Disciple to go fully SAD (Monk also gives you Evasion, for full defensive stupidity).

Of course, all of these suggestions add a higher feat tax, which makes archery and mounted archery even less plausible.

EDIT: Except the prestige ranger one. That would actually be really profitable for an archer paladin, not in the least because of Arrow Storm.

[Draz74]

Do you really need Mounted Archery? It's really just a situational +4 attack bonus, and archery is already generally pretty good at boosting its attack bonuses.

[Ravens_cry]

Do you really need Mounted Archery? It's really just a situational +4 attack bonus, and archery is already generally pretty good at boosting its attack bonuses.
True, but Archers also depend on spam attacks, which have negatives of their own. +4 is 20%, the difference between hitting on a 16+ and only on a 20.
If you can get some Pathfinder feats, see about putting Clustered Shots (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/clustered-shots-combat) in.One of the banes of a "Death by a Thousand Cuts" types, like many archers, is DR. Even the small amounts a PC can generally have can make arrows much less deadly, while the amounts monsters, especially high end ones, can make it almost irrelevant. Now, all your attacks are counted before DR is applied, potentially hugely increasing your net damage output.

[Retech]

Why not just shoot before you move btw?

[ericgrau]

The movement and the shots happen simultaneously. In fact the square you shoot from is halfway through the mount's movement.

And -4 is a lot. Heck the -2 is a lot. To say 20% is misleading, because it means 20% of attacks become misses, not 20% of hits become misses. Its more like 25-30% of your primary hits and about half of your secondary hits. The real issue is not the -4 but that it is situational. Really you don't want to ever do more than a double move if you can help it, but even then going from say 75%/75%/50%/25% = 2.25 hits to 65%/65%/40%/15% = 1.85 hits - losing about 1/5th of your damage (not 1/10th as 10% would seem to imply) - is huge for only 1 feat.

[sreservoir]

If you're trying to get the Most You Can™ from the Paladin, then you need Sword of the Arcane Order and Mystic Fire Knight. If you can get into it, Prestige Ranger is also very good for Paladins (I know, weird), since it'll give you the ranger's excellent spell list. Combine the two and you'll have 4th-level Ranger, Paladin and Wizard spells.


is there any reason that mystic ranger into prestige paladin wouldn't be better? the loss of caster levels isn't such a big deal because you don't actually improve after 9 (??), and you get better casting than KMF anyway.

[Adamantrue]

One of the banes of a "Death by a Thousand Cuts" types, like many archers, is DR. Even the small amounts a PC can generally have can make arrows much less deadly, while the amounts monsters, especially high end ones, can make it almost irrelevant. Now, all your attacks are counted before DR is applied, potentially hugely increasing your net damage output.That's why I grabbed the Force enchantment on my Bow. Force effects bypass DR (as well as getting passed Wind Wall).
Why not just shoot before you move btw? Because that would be a waste of Find the Gap, more or less. Being able to attack the Touch AC can be brutal with a Power Attacking Lance. That's one of the other main draws of Improved Mounted Archery...I can fire each shot from anywhere in my move, so I can Full Attack with the Bow after I hit with the Lance.

Prestige Paladin isn't an option. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217730)
* My goal is to take every Tier 5 and under class... and find SOME way to make them viable. We're not talking T1 level viable, we're talking more along the lines of 'Can group with Tier 3 classes and still be able to contribute something'.

* Moreso, I'm not going to simply use WBLomancy (ala the Cube), or tricks ANY class can use (i.e. partially charged wands with cross-class ranks in UMD, or Bob). I'm going to be using the class's abilities to pull off some combo or trick that helps them be useful in a fight.

* I'm well aware that, even with this level of optmization, there are other classes who can do it better. That's not really the point here. Right now, we're dealing with the bottom of the barrel, the dregs, the unwashed masses... 'competent' is about all we can realistically ask from these guys. What we are doing is making these classes at least playable

* I will be restricting myself to the materials I have at home. No DragonMag content. No 3rd party content. No homebrew. However, unless it's a very obscure source... I've probably got it lying around somewhere.

* Critique and suggestions are always appreciated. Flames and derogatory comments exposing the ignorance of the poster will be pointed to and laughed at. Well... nah, to be honest, they're not worth the effort to point and laugh at, I'll just sic the Mods on 'em.

* I realize that dips can significantly help a class, but often times, the 'base class' can end up BEING the dip, since other classes simply overpower them. Therefore, as a limitation, you can't have more levels in a 'dip' than you have in the 'base Underdog class'.

* No Pathfinder, either in being used, or in helping out.

[gkathellar]

is there any reason that mystic ranger into prestige paladin wouldn't be better? the loss of caster levels isn't such a big deal because you don't actually improve after 9 (??), and you get better casting than KMF anyway.

Shooting Star Mystic Ranger into Prestige Paladin is significantly better, yes. 5th-level spells and significantly more spells per day. However, as the OP has stated, he's not going for a prestige-paladin build.

[Adamantrue]

gkathellar: I'm having trouble tracking down Mystic Fire Knight and Sword of the Arcane Order. Sources?

And Dragon Magazine material is out, which I believe includes the Dragon Compendium (which I don't have anyways).

Prestige Ranger changes this build too significantly (and I'm not sure if its in the spirit of the parameters), but I think it could be an interesting new starting point.

herrhauptmann: I think Splitting is out. I might be able to swing Point Blank Shot & Precise Shot, but there is a weird statement in the Archery Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=1s23s737mvjh83fo5u44sr99d1&topic=642.msg15068#msg15068) about how it would interact with the Raptor Arrow (or at least, there is a weird out-of-place paragraph that seems to be talking about the Raptor Arrow & Splitting).
...The only reason for not using these is if you've got Splitting Bows in your game - Splitting might break these arrows (consult your DM) making them rather worthless...

[gkathellar]

gkathellar: I'm having trouble tracking down Mystic Fire Knight and Sword of the Arcane Order. Sources?

And Dragon Magazine material is out, which I believe includes the Dragon Compendium (which I don't have anyways).

Prestige Ranger changes this build too significantly (and I'm not sure if its in the spirit of the parameters), but I think it could be an interesting new starting point.

Both are from Champions of Valor, which you may not have.

SotAO is a feat, so you will be able to find it via Google. Mystic Fire Knight is a set of substitution levels that improve the paladin's spellcasting.

[Draz74]

True, but Archers also depend on spam attacks, which have negatives of their own. +4 is 20%, the difference between hitting on a 16+ and only on a 20.
Unless your attacks are so high that even with the -4 you still hit on, like, a 4. Which is quite possible if you build to it. Don't get me wrong, it's not a worthless feat ... but on a feat-starved build, I'd be inclined to give it up.

Or maybe take Woodland Archer instead. It gives you a +4 to attack for every time you miss. It won't prevent your first miss each round; but on the other hand, it also helps you pierce concealment.


One of the banes of a "Death by a Thousand Cuts" types, like many archers, is DR. Even the small amounts a PC can generally have can make arrows much less deadly,

Yes, and this is why they gave archers the Force bow (MIC), which is a better enhancement for beating ALL DR than other warriors get. :smallsmile:

[herrhauptmann]

herrhauptmann: I think Splitting is out. I might be able to swing Point Blank Shot & Precise Shot, but there is a weird statement in the Archery Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=1s23s737mvjh83fo5u44sr99d1&topic=642.msg15068#msg15068) about how it would interact with the Raptor Arrow (or at least, there is a weird out-of-place paragraph that seems to be talking about the Raptor Arrow & Splitting).

Haven't read the link you just gave, but the ruling I came up with last night after finally reading the 'Raptor Arrow' was:
You fire your Raptor arrow, just before it hits, it splits into two. So you're now hitting the enemy with 2 raptor arrows.
When the Raptor arrow is to return to you, only one goes back, the other disappears/fades away.
Any other ruling I could come up with pretty much results in you getting two raptor arrows for every shot you take. Which deserves to be banned.

edit:
Have you considered using Hanks Energy Bow?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a

[Draz74]

Any other ruling I could come up with pretty much results in you getting two raptor arrows for every shot you take. Which deserves to be banned.

Well, the other feasible ruling is, "You get two Raptor Arrows on your attack. But now your Raptor Arrow broke in half, so congrats, you just lost a 6k-gp item."

[herrhauptmann]

Well, the other feasible ruling is, "You get two Raptor Arrows on your attack. But now your Raptor Arrow broke in half, so congrats, you just lost a 6k-gp item."

How does that work? Splitting, despite the name, creates a second arrow identical to the first. It doesn't cut it down the axis before impact.

[Draz74]

How does that work? Splitting, despite the name, creates a second arrow identical to the first. It doesn't cut it down the axis before impact.

Dunno. I've never actually read CoR, I'm just going by what the Archery Handbook says.

[Adamantrue]

Point is moot right now. I'm not going to be able to fit Point Blank Shot & Precise Shot into this build, and since the majority of the work in this form of "Archery" is being handled with Ranged Smite, I don't think more attacks aren't as high a priority.

Would be helpful to know what the RAW would be, though.

[Curmudgeon]

Why exactly do you want to be an Elven Paladin? Maybe I missed something, but I didn't see any choices that require Elf as a race. Why not a Lesser (Player's Guide to Faerûn, page 191) Aasimar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/planetouched.htm#aasimar) instead? The Lesser version is LA +0 and at least has Paladin as its favored class, plus a few abilities that Elves lack. It's nice to not burn any DM indulgences just on getting an exception to the multiclassing XP penalty rule; that way you can save up any good grace for something that's important to the character.

[Adamantrue]

Races of the Wild has Elf Substitution Levels that let you trade Smite Evil for Ranged Smite Evil. I'm hoping that in combination with Mounted Archery & Spirited Charges with a Dancing Lance, I can maintain a strong Damage Output with them working together, while keeping some flexibility in my tactics so that I'm never without any credible & competent (though admittedly not highly optimized) options available.

With the caveat that I'm trapped on my Mount if I wanna be useful.

[gkathellar]

Better take plenty of Extra Smite, then, considering you get what, three or four uses per day?

[Adamantrue]

Drats. I can't find Champions of Valor in my normal sources.
Better take plenty of Extra Smite, then, considering you get what, three or four uses per day? 4 per day, actually. I'm thinking Find the Gap & Divine Sacrifice (Spell Compendium) & Divine Vigor (Complete Warrior) would let me stretch them out, so I may only use 1 or 2 Ranged Smites in a tougher encounter or adventure climax.

But that gets back to the title. What is the minimum I'd need to optimize for the Mounted Archery & Spirited Charge to make both viable enough, especially if both can be used simultaneously (Dancing Lance)? How much is actually "necessary"?

I'm wondering how much I need Celestial Mount & Divine Shield. Perhaps trading them out for Tunnel Fighting & Tunnel Riding removes the main general drawback (dungeon crawls become possible with the Mount) without taking away anything too significant. Except...does your Mount still take a Movement Penalty, and does that mean it can't charge?

[Person_Man]

Ask your DM if you can use Leadership to get a better Special Mount. (There are specific rules for it in the DMG, though it's not in the SRD). The Special Mount can be the Paladin's most important and powerful class feature, if you know what you're doing.

I would also suggest dropping archery and focusing on melee. Archery is very resource/Feat intensive, Paladins don't have the spells or bonus Feats to support it, and the damage and special effects that it can put out are not impressive.